Jim Sander -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:17:32 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:23:46 (GMT)

__ __ sivan -:- not all,deb -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:31:50 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Apples. oranges ... and donuts? -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:16:01 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- The shot in the arm of devotion -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:58:11 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- The shot in the arm of devotion -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:19:32 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- great post as usual -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:15:01 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- GREAT POST, goes along with Bait and Switch post -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:52:18 (GMT)

__ Roy -:- Thoreau said -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:24:36 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Yes, the irony is thick beyond belief -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:15:25 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:42:48 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:13:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:18:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:39:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority. -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 11:26:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Some good thoughts Carl -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:52:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- An imaginary relationship with a spritual predator -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:06:01 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Great Post Jim Sander! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)

__ Bob -:- GREAT post -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:27:41 (GMT)

__ __ Tim G -:- GREAT post -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:54:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Two more thumbs up - GREAT post! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:41:06 (GMT)

Chuck Sprague -:- ''Bait and Switch'', and the aspirant process -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:42:31 (GMT)

__ wolfie -:- I love to be true -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:39:46 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Yes, your own understanding really is ... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:59:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ wolfie -:- hope we don't get rusty -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:29:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- eloquent post wolfie -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:51:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Older yes, rusty no... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 18:32:03 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- really great post Chuck -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:08:33 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- That's shocking Susan... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 18:51:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Susan's right, it was AWL up front -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:28:10 (GMT)

__ Sivan/Sam -:- bonding with my new puppy (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:32:44 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Doggies give great darshan... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:45:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ sivan -:- chuck,my doggie has heard the call(nt). -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:02:22 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- BEST OF FORUM again!!! I hope ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:41:22 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Good idea ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:35:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes, didn't get to talk -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:11:02 (GMT)

__ Will -:- ''Participation'' made me end up feeling -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:52:15 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Fake ''Glastnost'' made me offer myself... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:30:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ G -:- You will be synchronized, resistance is futile (nt -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:17:25 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- *** Definitely a Best Of Forum Post *** -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:12:40 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- how students learn to be dogs... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:15:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Will -:- Introductory videos, huge false promise -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:25:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Half-assed Yoga taught as religion instead of ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:46:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Chuck, re: Bait and switch;Teacher and Master... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:40:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- K Lite is really just a stepping stone to ... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:24:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, that's a fundamental difference -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:12:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Same product, different pitch... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:16:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- You got the full WHAMMY all right -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:04:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Only a partial WHAMMY, I think... -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:51:46 (GMT)

__ Scot J -:- I'd call this satsang, but -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- I'd love it if you called it Satsang... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:32:36 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- This be the real satsang! -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:42:41 (GMT)

 

Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:17:32 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial...
Message:

A number of people have asked me to mention how my letters to the Chapel Hill, NC community were received, and what were some of the reactions to them.
Also, my 2 hour phone converstaion with Ira Woods, once the letter was received by EV.

Ira started out by telling me that my letter was taken seriously, and forwarded from EV to the office of maharaji.
I'm not sure what that meant, but I did ask him if maharaji would read it, or if I could talk to maharaji personally.
He couldn't assure me of either, which was understandable.

The conversation with Ira was interesting; unremarkable in some ways, but quite telling in others.
What wasn't said was just as informative to me as what was said.

I like Ira;I always felt that he was very intent on his spiritual practice, and not so interested in DLM politics and social climbing as some other big shots I met along the way.
I do believe he was at times a bit fanatical in the old days, but so were a lot of people.

Our conversation was very nice and heart felt for about the first hour...reminiscing about the old NY 83 St. ashram,divine sales, the electric circus, early 1970's programs etc.
That was nice.

But I soon became aware of the 'apples and oranges' syndrome as we went deeper into our talk.
What I believe is that maharaji's obvious flaws,hypocrisies and manipulations are dealt with in the same way we deal with these same problems with politiicans.

If you like the guy, you overlook everything.
If you don't like the guy, you notice everything.
Look at Reagan....obviously a deeply flawed man who lied to us, but you would never know that from the conservatives version of history.
Or Clinton...you either wanted to lynch him if you were a conservative, or you could calmly overlook his pecadillos if you were a liberal.

What I see premies doing is obviously overlooking maharaji's blatant lies and deceptions.
When I mentioned these things to Ira, he just couldn't/didn't/wouldn't get it.
It really was apples and oranges..you couldn't compare the two.
He simply did not see anything to be upset about...he told me that he had heard all the wierd stories before, and it didn't bother his practice.
Knowledge is perfect, even though some times his mind wants to try and pick it apart.
All the other stuff is clutter along the path...doubts to be overlooked.
Don't get into all the wierd rumors and such, and you're ok.
It simply works, and what's the problem?

I finally gave up after about 2 hours, realizing that the whole issue of trust, honesty, ethics etc. was not going to be broached with Ira.
He did agree that these allegations and revelations are affecting new people, and they have been reading the site.
EPO is hurting maharaji's work, to be sure.
But beyond that, not much room for open dialogue.
As one friend put it, Ira has an IRA, from maharaji, and he's not going to bite the hand that feeds him, or go against any party line.

It struck me as ironic, that the very people who started out as rebellious seekers of truth, wary of religion and dogma, are now desparately clinging onto the maharaji religion and dogma.
They have become the religious establishment that they so wisely and warily avoided as young seekers, and are quite threatened by any type of critical thinking, reasoning or heart felt feeling that upsets that apple cart.

Rather than search for the truth, they seek the safety of the religion and personality cult around maharaji.
Clinging to the illusion of truth, rather than truth.

I have noticed the same thing with premies I know from different places.
If they're still doing it, they kind of like the religion,the routine of it...something would be missing if they weren't doing it.
Yet no one seems to have any deep experience of anything, and certainly nothing that they can or are allowed to articulate.
It is dead beyond belief, but most premies are still reluctant to talk critically of it, or speak honestly about it.
There is to be no doubt or critical examination of the master.

This 'premie blind spot' can be comforting to some.
Anything that feels uncomfortable can be labelled a 'doubt'.
You simply overlook these 'doubts' and never, ever, 'doubt the master'.
It makes life easy, but only if you want to live with eyes closed.

The problem begins when this artifical reality that you have created meets the real world reality.
The vast majority of new people will simply not ignore all of these obvious lies and deceptions the way that the premies do.
They have no need to.
In fact, most of them will be hyper-sensitive to anything that smacks of cult.

Eventually the blind spot is what will derail this whole thing.

Maharaji needs this current 'shot in the arm' of devotion.
Recent events like the toe kissing and arti are no coincidence.
While it may bolster sagging spirits for a short time, eventually it will catch up, both with maharaji, and the premies.

Although Ira and the premies don't see any problems(because they simply cannot afford to see any problems), and blindly forge on ahead with their master's words spurring them on, they will eventually realize that what they are doing is quite immoral.

To not tell prospective new recruits about ALL of the maharaji story,is simply unethical, short sighted and foolish.
As the truth unfolds,numerous hearts will be broken, bonds of trust shattered,and premies will be looked at as either naive fools at best or cult recruiters at worst.

It's ironic that the group that challenged America with the slogan 'Who is guru maharaji?', is now about to find out a lot more about the man than they probably ever wanted to know.

Sincerely,
Jim Sander

PS:I will talk about reactions from other people in next post.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:23:46 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial...
Message:

Wow, this is a real good posting. I agree with you about the denial syndrome and it is amazing that even the premies who hear and believe are impotent to react accordingly.

Then there are the premies who get on-forum arguing aimlessly without any semblance of logic. They do not understand that the world does not and never did revolve around M. That's why they can't alter their vocabulary when they try and be assertive.They inadvertantly turn the dialogue into a pissing contest because it's beyond them that we have opinions and proof and witnesses and choose to express Ourselves rather than parrot some instructor or other 'hierarchal' figure.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:31:50 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Deborah
Subject: not all,deb
Message:

i've known a few new prems over last couple of years. They got k and basically said- those techs were a bit silly, we prefer to do this and that-ie: get the same experience without twisting the arms into silly positions- they were people who had already played with yoga and meditation. Two who got k at amaroo said they found m was ok, but prems were bossy and hassled them - glad prems were well trained or maybe m can blame them for not presenting k properly(eventho' he was there.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:16:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Apples. oranges ... and donuts?
Message:

I wonder if Charles Cameron still owns the copyright to the book 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji'? Imagine it being reprinted by the publishers - can you guess who'd be the first to try and suppress publication?

You guessed - none other than the 'boy god' himself - the self-same Prem Pal Singh Sant Ji Maharaj. Guru Maharaj Ji of old, now known as Maharaji to ... a lot fewer than know him by his old name.


Irony you call it? Even Homer Simpson could learn from the Maha!

(i.e. he could learn what 'Doh!' really should sound like!)

.
.
.

Enjoyed your reflections greatly, Jim.

Keep 'em coming,

won't you?


Best,

Chris

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:58:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The shot in the arm of devotion
Message:

Very well said, Jim. I think your analysis is right on. I was interested in what you said about the current devotion revival in the Maharaji Religion:

Maharaji needs this current 'shot in the arm' of devotion.
Recent events like the toe kissing and arti are no coincidence.
While it may bolster sagging spirits for a short time, eventually it will catch up, both with maharaji, and the premies.

I wonder what the 'shot in the arm' actually is. He may feel he needs to motivate his most fanatic followers. He might also be feeling a bit ego-devestated himself, and psychologically needs some reinforcement to go on believing he is somebody special. If people are still willing to kiss his feet, he might rationalize, he must be something great, even though he is being trashed daily on the Internet and propogation in the west has been shut down. Maybe he is getting a big desperatein regard to his own mental health?

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:19:32 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: The shot in the arm of devotion
Message:

I had noticed, after 1997, that his appearences in the US really dropped off, and he started spending a lot more time in India and Amaroo. It seemed to me that the more time he spent in India, the more he was bringing the devotional stuff to his Satsang in the west.

It seemed as if the worship the Indians were giving him made him puffed up with pride, and he started EXPECTING the same devotion deference showed to him in the west, and was miffed when he didn't get it. He even started acting smug and arrogant in some aspriant videos, ridiculing peoples questions. That is when I started to find him really embarassing. No humility. Who would want him as a teacher, much less a Master?

Just a theory. Did anyone else notice that? It's been suggested here before that maybe he is having a mid-life crisis. That, combined with his past catching up with him, his chickens coming home to roost, may be making him paranoid and requiring the 'shot-in-the-arm' Jim S. is talking about. At the very least, I'm sure the pressure IS showing.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:15:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: great post as usual
Message:

I remember Ira too. He was very nice to me and my young premie friends.

I was sad to hear he was still in the cult.

I am sad for almost anyone I know is still there.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:52:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: GREAT POST, goes along with Bait and Switch post
Message:

below from Chuck S. Nice complements to each other. Thanks for taking the time to put that together. I swore I would stay of the Forum tonight but there's some great stuff on here from recent exes, including yourself. I left in 1985 or so, but I think the whole thing was like a plantar's wart.

After I started posting on the forum, I cleaned out some old income tax records and found evidence that even thought I'd left, I still had donated some money (albeit a small amount) in 1994. That was a revalation to me.

I believe you are right. The achilles heel is the old fools. There are no ashrams and no nightly satsang and huge communities where people basically auto-brainwash, or auto-convince themselves and each other daily. Those people are the core of the cult. Most of the newbies will never achieve that level of blindness and loss of resonance with the daily realities of life.

Namaste, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:24:36 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Thoreau said
Message:

Never trust an institution that requires new clothes.

Jim, your posts always smack of integrity - many thanks to you.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:15:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Yes, the irony is thick beyond belief
Message:

Jim,

It is SO true, this point about former 'seekers of truth' now wanting anything but. You know, back in the day when we were fellow 'seekers' with these guys, we were completely open on two fronts: we were open to all we could ever learn or hear about Maharaji because it was all sublimely wonderful, all of it; and we were equally fascinated about the inner or spiritual realm we thought we'd ventured into. We already knew it was nothing less than a direct experience of God. Maharaji made that clear. But we were oh so interested in exploring our own experiences, such as we thought them to be, and in hearing of others' as well. There were no taboos against comparing our meditation experiences, for example. It was all wide, wide open.

Now, however, it's so much the opposite on either front. Premies don't want to know too much about Maharaji and they've been brow beaten so much into not trying to make any sense of their so-called spiritual experience, let alone progress along some imagined spiritual path to some imagined spiritual goal, that they're forced to narrow their thoughts, their imagination and their speech to the vague, narrow bandwidth Maharaji allows. They're no longer free to talk about their experience so all they can do is step back a full step and talk about how grateful they are for it, whatever 'it' is.

The saddest thing is seeing these guys adapt to those constraints.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:42:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial...
Message:

Thanks, Jim. That was excellent and insightful. It was rigorously logical, and deeply aware on an emotional level.

Scott 'glad I'm not there anymore' T.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 04:13:15 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial...
Message:

I just coined a phrase that I entered in another thread but I think this thread is another appropriate place to post it. It goes to the issue of what made so many of us open to the cult and maharjuju in the first place.

Seeking the truth got me in the cult, finding it got me out.

In the beginning I had an open mind and an open heart and I wanted answers about spiritual things on a deeper level than I had previously gotten elsewhere. What happened to that inquiring nature once I got indoctrinated into Maserati land was that it was squelched and buried in cult dogma and expectation.

I am just starting to get back my awareness and zest for truth that I supressed under the maharaji pile. I believe that one should always examine and question authority and should never relinquish one's will to another no matter who they profess to be. This is a great lifelesson well learned for me.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:18:43 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority.
Message:

Which doen't mean disrespect, necessarily.

But it is funny to note how often 'authorities' of many types frequently construe simple, direct, non-judgmental questions as THREATS.

The very asking of any question of them is usually considered a betrayal, when it may truly be a sincere attempt at human-to-human inquiry for mutual benefit.

But no, 'authorities' harumph themselves sooner or later into pissy indignation, and then either obviously or covertly lash back.

It is a dead giveaway of insecurity. They reveal their humbuggery by this little routine.

A real authority on any subject is usually very willing to go into any direction a free inquiry will take. True teachers realize they learn as much or more from their students and their students' questions as by anything else.

It used to be said in satsang that a wise man will keep a critic on his doorstep, to help him (the wise man) keep honest and improve his character. Humility used to be considered a virtue.

What happened?

It seems M is most interested in simply 'being' a Master. 'Teaching' is an action, a responsibility. I think we now see how he deals with responsibility for his actions.

Random thoughts here.
Regards,
C.

 

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 01:39:41 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Carl
Subject: Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority.
Message:

Carl, loved your comment:

''It used to be said in satsang that a wise man will keep a critic on his doorstep, to help him (the wise man) keep honest and improve his character. Humility used to be considered a virtue.''

Speaks volumes. M. doesn't want critics on his doorstep, or even questions from aspirants.

I remember one video not too long ago where M. was waving around some papers, that were a list of some questions people had asked. He ranted on about questions, as if they were useless and pointless, joking about what possible use were questions? Like questions were all about being confused, and were a nusiance to him. The PWK's in the audiance tittered with approval, like his rantings were some kind of inside joke that they were cued in on. He ended up ignoring the questions, and told some half-baked indian story instead, which I can't even remember, because it seemed rather pointless.

Another time, he talked about being bored by answering questions, until someone asked a question he really wanted to answer. That question was, ''What would you ask YOUR master if he were still alive now?'' He got very excited by that question, and you could see he couldn't wait to give us the answer. His answer was: ''I would SHUT UP and listen!!! SHUT UP and LISTEN!!!'' He was quite adamant about it.

It became pretty clear to me that he does not like being asked questions. That sort of thing is for teachers, not The Master, apparently. I found his lack of humility offensive and borish. Like I would really want to introduce anyone to THAT. How embarassing.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 11:26:41 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Well said . . . ALWAYS question authority.
Message:

Chuck, this post is brilliant!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:52:17 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Some good thoughts Carl
Message:

You make a good point Carl, A reasonable question posed is not a militant or disrespectful attack, it is a simple inquiry into the facts. One a true teacher would welcome the opportunity to engage it seems.

In retrospect M never taught me anything, I doubt that he even knows my name, and he would not recognize me if he passed me on the street, he is no teacher. As far as knowledge goes, I received knowledge from Regeshwaranand not him, he was nowhere around when that went down, and no, like Richard at 53 I do not believe in Santa Claus.

And now this notion that he is my Master stretches the limits of my imagination and that is all that I have left to work with when it comes to him. Ones imagination can be a powerful resource and if it is open to influence to a spiritual predator you are easy prey. Herein lies his power, your power tranferred to him by ones own agreement.

That is all a Master has to do, just keep you enslaved to your own powerless position weaved and entangled in some convoluted dysfunctional imaginary relationship.

I don't need it, I have regained my own power, my own free will and I'm keeping it

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 02:06:01 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Brian Smith
Subject: An imaginary relationship with a spritual predator
Message:

is truely something none of us needs. Well said.

It was wonderful to meet you and Paula at Latvian Night SF. Glad you could make it down here. We've been listening to your Demo CD, and love it! It reminds me of some of the best of the Premie music, only better. It sounds a lot freer, no sermons in it! I hope there is more where that came from.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Great Post Jim Sander!
Message:

You just nailed the whole thing of trying to dance with the devil when it comes to bridging the truth about the cult and M with the hangers on of old.

The ironic thing is as you also noted is that these people were once seekers of truth, and now they can't hear the truth, their ears are deafened by so many layers and years of illusion, the very thing that they were once trying to escape.

This is great post Jim, I really appreciate all of your contributions and read every entry.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:27:41 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: GREAT post
Message:

very good analysis!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:54:04 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: GREAT post
Message:

Excellent Post Jim
Iv'e saved your original letters and this new one as what they have to say puts SO clearly the moral dilemma of the cult and I feel that a print out of these is a very powerful enema for those who are still constipated by the spiritual diet of the Hindu business man's regime. Premies really have to bury their heads in the sand and fall back on very vague justifications such as 'it works'. So do drugs and religions if you want to be blinkered!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:41:06 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Two more thumbs up - GREAT post!
Message:

Jim S,

While reading your eloquent and profound thoughts, I was moved emotionally as well as intellectually. Your compassion for Ira is evident and I believe compassion is a much needed element in this drama. We were all once connected to M&K in the same simplistic way and so I can also feel compassion for anyone still operating at that level. For some reason this brings to mind the day I took a Christmas gift to some friends and they summarily informed me that Santa Claus wasn't real. It shattered my simplistic view of magic and materialistic gain (toys), but made complete sense once I thought it through. I still enjoy the 'magic' and sweetness with friends and loved ones at mid-winter but imagine if at age 53 I still believed in Santa Clause - pathetic indeed.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:42:31 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: ''Bait and Switch'', and the aspirant process
Message:

I've been thinking about something ''Been There'' asked me. It was why I feel like the way Knowledge is being presented to aspirants is brain washing, rather than incremental learning.

Before I got involved with M and K, I was a seeker, and had explored other religious paths. I had found that some Christian groups made very emotional appeals to recruit members. They would talk about very noble and universal feelings like love, peace, happiness, joy. Jesus Loves You, don't you know? And he accepts you just the way you are, you don't have to do anything to recieve his love, other than accept it. So simple, so nice, just like the people telling you all about it, right?

Yeah, right.

Once they think you've chomped on the bait, then the REAL stuff comes out: ''Now that you have accepted God's love, you DO want to love him in return, don't you? As evidence that you have accepted God's love, you must now obey his word, as told to us in the bible. And the Bible says, NONE OF THIS, and NONE OF THAT. And you MUST DO THIS, and MUST DO THAT (proselytize and tithe and all that good stuff). And if you DON'T do these things, here is all the terrible things that God's word, the Bible, warns will await you (blashpemy of the holy spirit, hell, damnation for eternity, etc.)'' And eternal damnation for anyone who doesn't buy into the Belief System, including all the people in your life that you love, who don't buy into the BS. Gee, doesn't that make you feel filled with joy? The more fundametalist fringe CULTS even try to make you paranoid of non-believers and evil spirits, and dance with poisonous snakes. Great fun.

They would try to suck you in with all this nice sounding, ''God Loves you and all of humanity, isn't it great to love everyone kind of stuff'', and then when they felt they got you hooked, they had this harness to put on you , and the harness was attached to a whole wagon-load of SHIT they expected you haul, their shitty negative-soul-destroying Belief System. YUK! No thank you.

So I had seen through that game, when I moved to San Francisco. I had not lived here long, before I got a boyfriend, a good job, eveything was going great, and WHAM! Two tons of steel fell on me, my life went to pieces. The brush with death left me feeling very mortal. I realized life was very precious, and I wanted to stay with that, without having steel beams fall on me to remind me.

So when I met these wonderful gay hippy premies, who were so warm and nice, and learned about this guru who could reveal to you an experience that was already inside of you, it was too good to resist. I HAD to find out.

But I remembered the Christian bait and switch tactics. I wanted to be certain this was not the same thing. I was assured it was not a religion or a belief system, and that I could experience it for myself. I wasn't asked to give up anything. I was not told ''none of this, none of that''. I was even told that I didn't have to sing Arti if I didn't want to. I was asked to:

Keep the techinques a secret.

Give Knowledge a fair chance.

Keep in touch.

Nothing like the Knowlege Vows posted here recently that so many of you had to take (Yikes! I definitely got K. Lite!) I hated the idea of keeping a secret for anyone, but I agreed. I HAD to find out. I didn't know about DLM then, it was Elan Vital now. I was told not to listen to old premies, just listen to M. There were some religious things about it all that I didn't understand or like, but these all began falling away quite soon. It really did seem like M. was stripping away the religion. I learned to enjoy the meditation, and some of the things M. would say. He would say things that I didn't understand sometimes, or that just didn't help or do anything for me. I would just ignore those things.

Two things he said that impressed me greatly were, that we shouldn't worry about propagating Knowledge, that is what he was there for. Just leave it all to him. That was around the time that Premie Satsang stopped. I was rather glad that I was not expected to proselytize, because I never could stand the idea that I had to ''convince'' anyone of anything. Another thing he said that really impressed me was, that he never wants to try to talk anyone into believing anything. He said that the day he walks out onto a stage with the intent that he has to convince anyone of anything, is the day he will stop talking about Knowledge. I thought that was just great.

Over the next 20 years, I kept in touch. After the first 3 years, I began to ''Support Maharaji's work'' I sent a monthly check. We went to programs occasionally, and collected some videos. We were on the fringe, and didn't get involved the the ''organization''. There were little things here and there, that I felt uncomfortable with, but could not piece them together, so I just ignored them. M. contradicted himself at times too, but as a premie you just get used to that. If he said things that were of no use to me, I just ignored them.

In the 1990's, the discomfort factor began to rise. M. started refering to himself as The Master, more and more. I had accepted a Guru, which meant ''Teacher''. M. kept emphasizing how a Master was NOT a mere teacher, but somthing much greater. He began quoting scripture a lot, which is something he never used to do. In fact, when I recieved Knowledge, the premies used to say that scriptures were like ice cubes, frozen and dead, but the guru's satsang was like living water, with a living guru, you didn't NEED scriptures. Now here was M. using scriptures. And not only that, he was using them to authenticate himself as some kind of Master as presented in scriptures. He often talks about the Master in the third person.

Darshan began again, (in Amaroo), and he started to insinuate paranoia into his satsang. Spider webs, fish nets, beware of the world and people who don't have this Knowledge, kind of stuff, and constant warnings to NEVER DOUBT. I kept thinking, ''Never doubt WHAT? My breath?!?'' Beware of the ''Doubtmaker''. I did not think of my mind as an actual ENEMY. It was, after all, MY mind. I did begin to have doubts. I began to doubt wether or not I had been suckered into a Bait and Switch after all. You know, ''Here is a nice teacher who will show you something simple inside and how to be happy and enjoy life, and feel real love... isn't it great? Dontcha just love it? Oops! Sorry, I forgot to mention, he's also really GOD, he's the MASTER, NEVER DOUBT the purity of the MASTER. He's your Father, your Mother, your Lover and Friend, he's your ALL to you. Don't you go through that darshan line unless you are ready to show some RESPECT. And sing Arti, like you MEAN it. Think of HIM when you die, and you will recieve HIM.''

Well, I never agreed to any of THAT. I was starting to feel betrayed, like someone was trying to pull a fast one on me. But I didn't really understand what was happening, or why. And since I did have some good experiences being involved with M and K, I kept ''accentuating the positive'', the things I liked or could tolerate, while holding at a distance the more uncomfortable parts.

So I clung to the ''Guru'' I had accepted many years ago, and became well aquainted with my own ''Excusemaker''. (Master and Guru are sort of the same thing, right? And one has to be careful about believing everything one reads on the internet...etc.) If you don't listen to the Doubtmaker, the Excusemaker automatically kicks in. I did mental backflips and contortions, till I got more information and pieces started to fit together. I tried to actually get involved more, to see if I could recapture that 'old feeling' that drew me into M and K in the first place. Getting invovled in ''participation'' was great, because it showed me what I was really involved with, make me look deeper and ask more questions, and eventually help me find my way out, by seprating what worked for me from what did not. ''Participation'' made me end up feeling like a resource to be exploited, instead of a human being wanting to share something. Where was that love that drew me into it all in the first place?

So why do I think the aspirant process is brainwashing, instead of learning? Because it is deceptive. When you learn, you build up information, and what you learn first supports what you learn later, not contradicts it.

I was told at the begining of my 'journey' with M. that this Knowledge was common to every human being, and that the guru simply reveals it to you by showing you some simple techniques. Premie Satsang often made me feel closer to people, ALL people. It seemed to be about something that was common and Universal to all people.

NOW, the story is that this Knowledge is his ''GIFT' and can only come from him, and will only work WITH HIM. So, what had once been something that was common to every human being, and had actually made me feel closer to humanity, was now somthing in M's private domain, to be witheld and kept secret. So much for humanity, in fact, they are the ENEMY, because they might make you doubt the high mucky-muck powers of the Master. I began to feel restricted, that I could no longer just feel free to love people, because there was now this belief system in the way. Deja-vu the Fundamentalist Christian experience.

Current Aspirants are being fed Knowledge Lite. That is the bait. Once you are in the asprirant process pipeline, you are put through a process of trying to convince you that M. is an essential ingredient to your happiness. The distinction between teacher and Master is blurred, then the ''Teacher'' is switched for the Master, and then there is a wagon load of shit and a harness to pull it with waiting for you, once you have been ''convinced'' that M. is the Master, with whom you cannot do without.

M. lied about not wanting to convince people. He tries to hook peoples emotions, and use that as a handle to manipulate them. It's training to get people to trust their emotions to the point of excluding their reasoning minds, so they accept M's contradictions. ''The words don't matter, it's That Feeling that is important.'' Once you're in that space, it's easier to buy into the Master concept, while believing you have no concepts at all. And once you are in that space, that dependency, you are much easier to manipulate.

I doubt this is very effective nowadays, I think most aspirants see through it eventually, which is why the drop-out rate is so high. I think they are curious as to what the Knowledge is, they may even like it when they get it, but M. himself is so boring, they drift away afterwards, especially as it becomes so expensive to ''Keep in Touch'', and the cult-like aspects become difficult to ignore. And especially if they learn about the history behind it all, and that the secret techniques are Yoga that is freely given by many teachers.

So in short, it WAS ''Bait and Switch'' after all. I liked the Bait a lot better than the Switch. M. really IS trying to convince people that he is the MASTER, to be idolized and worshiped, and he uses paranoia to hold people under his spell, just like so many other megalomania cult leaders before him. He lied and is lying, and it sucks.

That is why I see it as brainwashing, and that is why I left. It was not what I was led to believe it was. I am not a resource to be exploited. He doesn't even know my name, and he doesn't WANT to know. Fine. I want no part of it. The truth about anything doesn't need defending, it simply holds up to scutiny, because it is true. It doesn't have to hide behind smart cards, secret finances or a sincere but misguided premie with a terminal illness, like M. does.

More than angry, I just feel dissapointed and embarassed. Really embarassed.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:39:46 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: I love to be true
Message:

Hi Chuck,

this is really helpful. Only my own awarness can lead me out of that belief system I stumbeld in, blinded through my own expectations manipulated by blinded followers and forced through M creating that subtle paranoia amongst his followers. No big evidences can and will help me to find my way out, only courage to trust my very own understanding will make things clear for me. Your describtion is helpful, to see how unnatural things are and were, it's a simple perspective no one should ignore. It's easy to understand without big proofs.

thanks .............wolfie

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:59:40 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: wolfie
Subject: Yes, your own understanding really is ...
Message:

your best guide. If anything I said helped you with that, then I am glad. I learn a lot by trying to explain sometimes. Reading other peoples posts has helped me a lot too, and I like to share something once in a while.

I think I've also gotten a little ''charge'' out of our local Latvian Night in SF. Meeting so many nice people from the premie-past, made me think a lot about what got me involved in the first place, and what made me want to part company with M eventually.

I think I just was attracted to where the love was, and these days, it's not with M's trip, which has too many lies and secrets. I got a nice buzz from the ex's at Latvian night, like I used to get from informal premies gatherings in the Haight-Ashbury, only this was nicer, without an invisable Goober to try and relate it all too. The love, for me, is where the people are, not with Knowledge DVD's, smartcards and video broadcasts, or lies, secrets and deceptions.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 08:29:04 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: hope we don't get rusty
Message:

Hi Chuck,

thanks for responding. Maybe one day I'll will have the occasion
to visit a Meeting from ex-premies. But here in Germany the situation is more on the fringe. I still have a lot of contact to people who call themselfs premies, but don't know what's going on. They have Maharaji more like a 'Talisman' in the pocket and it helps them to remember the blissfull days when we all were young. We still share joy and love and everybody is welcome wether they are premies or whatever they may be, or call themselfs.
When I was young or younger it was not so easy to trust my own understanding, maybe all is a matter of growing up. For me it's beyond my imagination that M and this premieworld would attract me again today. I still like to sit and watch how my thoughts slow down and sometimes I get the feeling of blue sky and life itself is my master and to express love and joy is my very own privilege. So in retrospect, I can not say that I haven't learnt anything through all this years. Those were the days my friend we thougt they never end ................Adios ........wolfie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:51:14 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: eloquent post wolfie
Message:

Your english is right on when you need it to be. Especially this line, for me:
When I was young or younger it was not so easy to trust my own understanding, maybe all is a matter of growing up.

Too true, too true. And about life itself being the master, or teacher.

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 18:32:03 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: wolfie
Subject: Older yes, rusty no...
Message:

Hi Wolfie:

I think a lot of the premies hang on to M. for sentimental reasons. We still have friends who are premies too, and we have to respect their decision to believe what they want. They know how we feel, and we agree to disagree about it, rather than be disagreable with each other.

I sometimes feel moving on from M. is a bit like growing up, because if I'm honest I really outgrew him a long time ago. I learned a few things but there was a point where I should have moved on. I really like what you said:

''I still like to sit and watch how my thoughts slow down and sometimes I get the feeling of blue sky and life itself is my master and to express love and joy is my very own privilege. So in retrospect, I can not say that I haven't learnt anything through all this years.''

I feel that way too. I'm glad I learned to meditate, I still do the techniques, only now in the traditional yoga way instead of M's way. I've often felt that life itself is the only master I want to be in awe of. And blue skies don't need you to send checks! And love and joy really ARE a privilege, and I've found that I can enjoy them best in a more universal way, without the exclusive restrictions of religious beliefs or concepts.

And I also can't say I haven't learned ANYTHING. I have. Maybe part of growing up is just learning what works for you and what doesn't, and knowing when to move on, taking with you and keeping the wisdom you've EARNED. Even our mistakes teach us things and show us what REALLY makes us happy. Und das ist was is wichtig, nicht wahr? ''Enjoy your life'' is good advice, no matter who says it. I intend to do just that. I hope we all do.

Herzliche Grusse,

- Chuck

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: really great post Chuck
Message:

interesting to read from your perspective. I think frankly you were saner than those of us who joined in the '70s heyday....one thing that it wasn't was hidden what was really going on then...

I watched arti in the ashram the second night I went to satsang. Complete with swinging arti tray, hindi words and full prostration to a giant photo and an empty chair at the end.

Before getting K, Mahatma Jagdeo asked us if we would cut off our heads for the guru. So, I would say it wasn't bait and switch back then....but God knows what made me take the bait.

Actually, I do know. I loved the premies. There were truly a lot of nice loving people, and a sense of community, and it met a need I had. Perhaps I felt the rush I got from the feeling of community must mean that the Guru was really what they said....I don't know, I was 13, and very given to magical thinking. I just know that was my hook. The smiles, the hugs, the feeling of being a part of a loving group with a purpose, I know I fell in love with premies first and the guru second....

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 18:51:59 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Susan
Subject: That's shocking Susan...
Message:

You were only 13 years old! That's incredibly young. What 13 year old dosn't engage in magical thinking? I had heard about that choping-off-the-head question being asked of premies last year for the first time, and was shocked. The premies themselves must have been loving indeed to keep you interested.

I know it was the loving kindness of the premies that drew me in. It made me feel SOMETHING must be right about this, because of the good feelings. Good feelings feel good, and the premies with their sincerity inspired a lot of those, even if they were misguided. Joy said once that the good people she got to know were the one thing she didn't regret about her cult experiance, and I have to agree. A lot of great people became premies. Too bad the Goober didn't/dosen't respect them more. He's missing out.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:28:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Susan's right, it was AWL up front
Message:

I was a hippie, and it was freaking strange to me too. The first premies I ever met came back from India (1971) and came up to our house to visit friends. The woman was nice -- she was warm, earthy and gentle, the kind of person that made me thing the whole wierd trip could be normal. The guy was holier-than-thou. Went down in our basement, didn't introduce himself to anyone, covered himself with a sheet and started meditating. When my roommate who lived in the basement went down there, as well as other people from the house, he took off the sheet and bad-vibed them. Kind of glared at them and then covered himself with the sheet again. Poor guy. Everyone said, 'who is that asshole down in the basement?'

But more and more neat people were doing it -- surrendering their lives to the kid I had called the 14-year old 'perfect bastard.' The bait and switch I got was that, once I received K, I was expected to wear underwear and a bra. Also long skirts and tie my hair back and act like a prude. Several months after I received K I went to my sister's Catholic college and the nuns looked racy compared to how I was dressing. I kid you NOT!

Years later, when the bait and switch phase that you so eloquently talked about came into being, I smelled a rotten egg and that was my exit song. It stinks, stinks, stinks.
--f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 08:32:44 (GMT)
From: Sivan/Sam
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: bonding with my new puppy (nt)
Message:

is much more meaningful than any of his bonding craP.. this stuff is loving and real- i know a dog will give more love than m

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:45:22 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Sivan/Sam
Subject: Doggies give great darshan...
Message:

Have you ever seen our dog, Guru Mahamarjie? She and her entire Holy Family give Doggie Darshan.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:02:22 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: siva28@yahoo.com
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: chuck,my doggie has heard the call(nt).
Message:

luv it, chuckiji,
maltese dogs believe they r goddesses already. I'm training this lovely aspirant- glad there is a doggie master for her! If I had your mail address I would send u a photo- let me know if u want a maltie aspirant- she could be difficult as she appears to have a brain of her own- but she already does pranahm(sp- my indian is getting rusty).
cheers

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:41:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: BEST OF FORUM again!!! I hope ...
Message:

you are saving these long and well though out pieces on your hard drive somewhere. You should pick one and post it as your journey, or make a composite of a couple. This one would make a great Journey post.

Love to you,
Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:35:52 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Good idea ...
Message:

I was thinking of filling this post out a bit more and using it as my journey entry. I think I will.

Was great to see you at SF Pigeon Fanciers nite. I was sorry that I didn't get a chance to speak to Mark, but I saw quite a few folks talking to him, I hope you both enjoyed it as much as I did.

Love to you both,

Chuck

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:11:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Yes, didn't get to talk
Message:

... to as many people as I would have liked. Good thing you guys don't live so far away. Wanted to talk to Monmot more too, and a lot of the others. I think your idea about a picnic starting in the afternoon would be great.

Maybe you could bring all your pooches. Frisbees, pooches and picnic baskets!

love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:52:15 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: ''Participation'' made me end up feeling
Message:

''Participation'' made me end up feeling like a resource to be exploited, instead of a human being wanting to share something. Thank you for saying that, it's exactly how I felt, but until I read this, I was never able to put it into words. Everthing is service 'participation', had to be perfectly done just so. If not you were told, very politely of course, but the constant reminder became quickly aggrivating. Service was no more an expression of how you felt, like in the beginning, it was like following a code to the letter, if not you were repremanded.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:30:43 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Will
Subject: Fake ''Glastnost'' made me offer myself...
Message:

The new ''participation'' showed me just how awfull things had become. There was no going against the grain, you had to plug in or get out. The chuch ladies loved it, but if felt to me like, join the Borg, or leave. That's why I felt like an exploited resource. I could only offer my time or money, to be used the way other people had decided already. All very polite and proper. There was no wiggle room, I started to feel like I was being swept along by a force that I could not influence, because I was supposed to be serving the Master. There was no ''Glastnost'', it was just a ruse.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:17:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: You will be synchronized, resistance is futile (nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:12:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: *** Definitely a Best Of Forum Post ***
Message:

Brilliant Chuck, and of value because you describe a process that us old timers weren't really aware of (at least I wasn't). In particular, I didn't notice the slow move back to devotion in the 90's because I always believed that was what it was about anyway (as I suspect most of the old-timers believe).

Thank you,

John.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 10:15:27 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: how students learn to be dogs...
Message:

Thanks John. I've somtimes been reluctant to talk about my experience much because it was K Lite, and I didn't get the full Rhadasoami Whammy that so many of you folks got in the 70's. But I felt in this particular instance, regarding propagation to aspirants, it was relevant, because the way Knowledge and M are introduced to aspirants is the K Lite version.

While being involved in the committee meetings and helping out at video events, I found myself liking the aspirant videos better, then started to ask myself why. In the introductory videos, M isn't assuming he is talking to an audience that adores him, so he usually behaves better. He stays on topic more, talks in more universal terms and values.

When speaking to premies, he comes off more arrogant and smug, assumes we are all hanging on his every word, wanders off topic, doesn't follow through on ideas, makes weird comments. It's in those videos that the paranoia satsangs happen, and he quotes scriptures and hammers away his Master concepts. He acts disrespectful while demanding respect. They were becoming harder to bear. Occassionally he would say some good sounding stuff, but it was only window dressing to make the You Need the Master stuff look better.

Looking at how different the two kinds of videos are, made me realize how he's really doing two different things. The premies are used to him contradicting himself, and hang with it.

There are a whole series of color coded videos, that aspirants go through, till they get to the paranoid swaggering ones. The process is the bait and switch. Start with the Teacher, end with the MASTER. I only hope the new aspirants get as put off as I was.

Looking back, it's kind of funny I had thought he was striping down the religion and making Knowlege more accessable to the west. Now I think all he was doing was keeping a low profile. Jonestown had just happened, and cult awarness was rising. The ashrams were too visable, so he cut down on the devotion and scraped the ashrams.

Perhaps in the late 90's, he felt safe bringing devotion back again. Scientology and the Moonies were going strong, perhaps it seemed safe for him to start again. But cult awareness is still quite high, and he does not have the financial resources or influence those larger cults have. It will be interesting to see what happens.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 17:25:19 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Introductory videos, huge false promise
Message:

When I would listen to introductory videos, it just came off as one huge false promise. You just have to receive those majic techniques and the doors to infinite joy, god and happiness will open up to you! I remember thinking, 'I wish that was all true'. I've had knowledge for 18 years and it hasn't happened to me, did I miss something? Can I pretend that I never received knowledge and start all over again? Just one huge lie!

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 22:46:23 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Will
Subject: Half-assed Yoga taught as religion instead of ...
Message:

... mental health, is what M is offering. It seems to me that over time, M's claims about what Knowledge does for you have become less and less. The techiniques have actually become incidental, because the real ''magic'' behind it all is the bhakti ju-ju that you are supposed to get from being devoted to him as your Master. He's teaching Master worship, and if you don't love him as an idol, that belief system doesn't work. Even if you do love him, I doubt it works unless you have faith in the idol, the belief system about who he is. But even then, it's your own faith in the belief system that helps you, not magic ju-ju from anyone. Belief is a powerful thing.

I didn't approach the meditation in a religious way, so what I got from it was a kind of rest, and the ability to stay more focused in the present momement more easily. I personaly found that helpful. But it did not solve all my problems, or give me complete peace of mind.

There were areas of my life where Knowlege didn't seem to help at all. Desipite M's ridicule of self-help books, I did look at other sources of help. During the hight of the AIDS epidemic, when so many people were dying so quickly, the books of and teachings of Louise Hay were very popular. I started exploring some of her teachings, and discovered that what she was teaching she learned from a dicipline called Science of Mind. SOM in turn came from something called The New Thought Movement, which began in the early mid 1800's in America. Fortunatly these teachings helped me a lot.

Imagine my shock when much later, while learning about the four techiniques, taught as Yoga instead of Religion, that I discovered many Yoga teachers teach that one should not even attempt to practice the techniques, until one had first resolved one's mental health issues, and gotten rid of any negative religious beliefs or damaging belief systems. M sure left that out of his special K reciepe! With his paranoia he even created and reinforced negative belief systemes. He didn't want people to do anything that might decrease their dependence on him, the Messiah. The Messiah that doesn't know your name, and doesn't want to know.

It would seem he has issues himself he has not dealt with. Hardly someone you can actually lean on for help, except as an imaginary friend. And sure, a belief in an imaginary friend CAN help you, but it's the belief that helps, not the friend, because he isn't real.

Thank goodness help and truth are not limited to any one person, and that wisdom is free and from many sources.

- Chuck
Who is glad to accept real help wherever it comes from.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:40:48 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Chuck, re: Bait and switch;Teacher and Master...
Message:

Chuck-

Very good insight about the different levels of videos, one for aspirants, one for premies.
I hadn't quite seen that before, but it is true and I now see why there was so much hubbub about not letting new people see certain videos, even though on one level its the same old same old.
There is a difference.

Although the bait is the Teacher, and the switch is to the Master, it seems more appropriate to me to call it:

Switch from this Teacher, or you will MasterBait the rest of your life.

Anyway, something like that...

Your posts are great, and very illuminating about the new K-lite process ofthe 1980's-90's.

La-ex

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:24:43 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: la-ex
Subject: K Lite is really just a stepping stone to ...
Message:

... K Industrial Strength Maharajism. Masturbation, till you work your way up to the Full Mind-Fuck? I doubt that it really works for most people in the west, except perhaps those who are really hell-bent on having a Master to worship. Some people really want that.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 16:12:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Yeah, that's a fundamental difference
Message:

Start with the Teacher, end with the MASTER.

That was so different than the trap we Millenium-era premies fell into. For us, Maharaji's grandeur as the Lord of the Universe was the draw. Calling him a mere 'teacher' would have raised eyebrows back then.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 20:16:00 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Same product, different pitch...
Message:

My experience with Christians had left me feeling rather wounded. It made me very leary of all religion. When I had the construction accident, and was being crushed (to death, I believed) under two tons of steel beams, I realized that everything I ever believed was just that; things I chose to believe, nothing more.

The idea of a Messiah seemed like just another thing people choose to believe, and if M. had been pitched to me that way, it would have had no appeal at all. But the idea of meditation and experienceing something for myself was very attractive. And of course, the idea that it was not a religion or a concept or a belief system had great appeal. Being gay was not held against me, nor was I told ''none of this, none of that''. I felt I had nothing to lose.

I was one of those premies who got hooked on the simplicity of it all. I'm sure there were things I should have questioned more, but I didn't want to get turned down for Knowledge before I had a chance to see for myself what it was all about, and besides the process was very easy for me. The instructor I had was not at all pushy, and encouraged me to ignore anything religious, and not listen to the old timers spouting LOTU stuff. I was told in no uncertian terms that guru simply meant ''teacher''. Plus I had a bruised liver, a cracked pelvis, was on pain killers, etc. Smoking grass also made me trust my feelings more, and nitpick less. The gay premies also made quite a bit of fun of the religious stuff, and their warmth and humor was very appealing. Their irreverence for the church ladies and anything religous made me feel safe. The laughter was very healing.

I really enjoyed that post you made to ''Cerise'', explaining why premies got involved with M. I feel the ''product'' described was the same one I was offered, only with the K Lite sales pitch. Something for everyone! For the K Lite people, it was the latter half of your description of K that was emphasized, although if you start out with the K Lite perspective, it's pretty clear that your understanding is supposed to ''Evolve'' to the understanding that M. is ''You-Know-Who''. K Lite does not make sense when faced with all the devotional stuff M. is bringing back now. I never knew just how serious the God Stuff was till I started learning about it here.

Just for fun, here is the post you made to Cerise:

(03-20-01)
Hi Cerise,
We got into this cult because Maharaji offered a very appealing combo back in the day: the biggest guru bang for the smallest religious buck. On the one hand, here was the 'Lord of the Universe, come with more power than ever before'. He was offering the greatest, platinum-coated, titanium-packaged, exclusive, previously-unsold-in-stores, Knowledge of all Knowledges. It trumped everything. You had a spiritual 'knowledge'? Yeah, right! You got nothing! This was better. You had a guru? Fuck that shit too. Maharaji was such a heavy motherfucker that you wait and see, another year or so there won't BE any other gurus. No, in this darkest of darkest -- we're talking DARK -- ages, He-Who-Cannot-Be-Named-Although-We-Won't-Shut-Up-About-Him, Balyogeshwar, Born-Lord-of-Yogis, the guy who could really kick all the other gurus asses and WILL, just you wait and see, motherfucker, had come. So there!
That was one reason.

The other was that, ironically, for all his being the Lord of the Universe and everything, Maharaji slyly conned us into thinking that he was particularly NOT into starting some sort of sect or religion (we didn't really HAVE the word 'cult' to bandy about then. That wasn't until after Jonestown, as I recall). Maharaji was so clever that way. Every other group had its belief system, a conceptual framework of SOME kind. Of course they did. It'd be impossible to exist otherwise. There'd be no identity, no nothing. Obviously. However, Maharaji took the con to a new, subtler level when he tricked us into thinking that his was a trip-less trip. Our trickiest concept was that we didn't have any.

This one bullshit idea, that we didn't have any ideas, was the biggest trap of all. And, like I said, it made the package so attractive. Not only were you getting the Lord himself but you were getting him without any stuffy, old religion. What a deal, huh?

So, yeah, the COG's and the Rajneeshies got to have sex but we thought that we were on a short, direct cruise to the centre of the universe, whatever that meant. The other cults looked like they were just playing around to us. Mind you, I'm sure Heaven's Gate would say the same about us, if only they could.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:04:31 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: You got the full WHAMMY all right
Message:

Chuck, your post was extremely powerful.

Your analysis of Christian sect psychological maneuvers was spot on, and should be required reading for anybody anywhere at risk.

Re the Whammy from Goober Ji. You got the same basic hit as anyone else, perhaps even more painfully drawn out and certainly more deceptively. It may have been worse for you because of that, as being sneakier.

Old-timers were happily screaming 'Lord of the Universe La-La-La' with scarcely a ripple of irony. It's our own fault. You had the sneak attack, a slow-acting poison.

The Forum, and certainly your heartfelt post, are great antidotes, benefitting you and the many many others who read here.

Many thanks,
C.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 00:51:46 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Carl
Subject: Only a partial WHAMMY, I think...
Message:

When I read about the experiences of the people who got K in the 70's, I see that there is a whole big THING missing from my experience. This thing, I had glimpses of, hints about, but it was being toned down, revised, on it's way out when I came along. I arrived just in time to see the back of it as it headed out the door. Because I stayed mostly on the fringe, too, my exposure was limited. This thing, I guess you could say it was the Heavy Devotional Thing.

I guess I got enough of the Whammy to stick around for years, and give money. It seems like most of the other K Lite people drifted away a lot sooner. I almost feel like a living experiment, perhaps one of the first K Lite recipients. But maybe that means I was always a half-baked premie, because I never made the full transition from K Lite to Industrial Strength Devotional K. The emotional hooks never went in deep enough. I'm not complaining! But reading about what I missed out on sure explains a lot.

Many mysteries have been solved for me. And I thank you all for that!

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:01:48 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: I'd call this satsang, but
Message:

I wouldn't like to downgrade it. It seems to come from straight from the soul. Thanks, Chuck.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 09:32:36 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Scot J
Subject: I'd love it if you called it Satsang...
Message:

I wasn't asked to give Satsang too often, and when I did, I would sometimes be 'corrected' afterwards by self appointed church ladies, who said I didn't talk enough about the Goober.

I loved satsang though, in the Haight-Ashsbury, it was a warm and friendly commnunity. I hadn't felt that kind of warmth from a group of premies for years, until recently, ironically, at the recent Latvian Nite here in SF. Maybe not so ironic, as I think the love we felt really was always our own.

Thanks for your comment, I've been enjoying reading your posts here too.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:42:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: This be the real satsang!
Message:

Company of truth!

love, f

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