Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 23:14:54 (GMT) From: Jerry Springer Email: None To: Jim Subject: Does Jim secretly hate change? Message:

Message removed by Forum Administrator.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:26:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Good question Jim. Really. I never liked him much. and it always made me feel awful. I wanted to love him. But i was in it for other reasons always. I wanted to obtain the promise of spiritual awakening. I wanted to make the world a better place. I enjoyed ( or thought I did) the sense of community. I got so isolated that all my friends were premies for a while. But M? I hated seeing him dance!! JW and I always riff on that one!! and I didn't much like kissing his tootsies. Hated the endless videos before he finally came on and sat his fat ass down in the chair. I dunno. And by that time I was so fried it didn't matter much what he was babbling about. Dunno. The folks around me seemed mesmerized but that as we know can be induced by all sorts of things. I didn't like him much, ever, as a premie. Was I weird? yes. no doubt. but were they all?

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 17:23:47 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jim Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

I think many premies feel a lot of resentment, sometimes to the point of hate, towards m. For me, there were many times I felt that way, but I didn't want to accept it. I was brainwashed into thinking it was wrong, and to disassociate from my feelings. I thought, oh, that's my mind that hates m, not me. I remember burning a picture of him years ago, but I still didn't leave him. I remember right after kissing his feet for the first time (yuuucchh), looking at him scornfully and feeling 'Your a fraud', that was my gut feeling. If I had only listened to myself. m was talking one time to or about some honcho premies and said 'some of you around here even hate me' and was laughing about it. He is a Master of manipulation. I have seen doubt and hurt in premies eyes recently (and not so recently). I think feeling hurt is a major contributor to hate. I want to get over the hurt and hate, but still oppose what he is doing. But to get over it, I need to accept that it's there and not just deny it. That's part of m's grip on people, the denial of feelings.

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 19:05:22 (GMT) From: Ms. K Email: None To: G Subject: Great post, G! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:04:46 (GMT) From: cqg Email: None To: G Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

G, you say: 'That's part of m's grip on people, the denial of feelings.' ... and then he attempts to replace those feelings and thoughts with what HE WANTS premies to think and feel. That is not the way to freedom. [Hope this link helps] Chris

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Date: Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 18:11:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cqg Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Thanks! Even if it is analyzed as an ad or whatever I LOVE to see this stuff on the net!!! the more the better.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 04:43:41 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene/G/Chris Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Remember when someone here quoted Joan Aptor as saying that her 'mind' would tell her she wished Maharaji would die so the whole crazy thing would be 'over.' If that's not her OWN voice trying to come out, I don't know what is! And she said this publically at a program. Now that is really sad.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 19:27:14 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Helen Subject: Confession as catharthis Message:

Hi Helen - and what a revealing thing for Joan Aptor to say. This discussion reminds me of community satsang and the way premies would use their 'opportunity to share' as a kind of pressure valve for the mind. Every night some maya-bruised brother or sister would take to the satsang chair and go: '...and it's like... my mind just comes in and says 'This whole trip is crazy ... that Guru Maharaj Ji is only in it for the money ... that it's just brainwashing or something...'' (At this point the whole satsang room chuckles merrily in recognition of a shared, all-too-familiar experience and each premie thinks 'What a relief - I am not alone in my confusion.') Premie Ji continues: '...but then I know I just have to turn inside and find that focus, that inner connection, that love, that thing which is perfect..(blah blah)... so I can see my mind for what it is - something that is trying to take me away from that Perfect Master ... that Perfect Love ... that presence... that incredible experience...' (Mixture of smiles, sighs, nods and more shared relief that there really IS an escape from the burden of our minds - and we are so fortunate to have found it, and so fortunate to be here right now being reminded of it... just to have this precious opportunity... thank-you, Maharaj ji...) Or you would get the premie who was really going through something and finding it all a bit too much: '...and sometimes my heart just feels so bleak as if Guru Maharaj Ji has deserted me... and I am just so deperate... sometimes it is just so hard to find that connection... And I don't know whether I will be able to stick the course... my mind is just SO powerful trying to take me away from his Lotus feet... And I just know I am so unworthy of his love... so unable to practice this perfect knowledge... I look for the experience but it doesn't seem to be there...' (Brotherly/sisterly concern on premies' faces, though the odd trace of a frown here or there when it is remembered that the spacer sharing hasn't been in satsang for the last two nights or contributed a button to community funds, so what can they expect..?!) But all's well that ends well... '...but I just know that I have no choice. Even if I can't feel that connection to Guru Maharaji right now, I just have to hang on in there and keep making that effort, keep praying for his Grace to deliver me from my confusion... I mean... (slight moistening of the eye)... NONE OF US is worthy of this experience and none of us should take it for granted that it will always be there or and it will always be blissful. We have to ask ourselves what is Guru Maharaj Ji teaching us? What is he trying to show me...? And it's just like Guru Maharaj ji saying what he always says: you HAVE TO get rid of that crazy ego. Stop thinking that YOU can do it, because you CAN'T DO IT. Did Maharaji really let me down, or did I turn away from him to do my own thing... because if we walk away from his shelter thinking we can just walk back in again we must face the consequences...because the mind will get us, every time. So all we can do is make that effort - so much MORE effort - pay to Maharaji for the Grace to make more effort...and then only by his Grace will that experience come...' (Premie does quick shamefaced pranam to the altar and slips quietly back to the cushion in the corner. Chastened, the assembled gathering make internal note to make more effort from hereonin and silently thank Maharaji for the timely reminder of their wretched inadequacy in the face of his everlasting gloriousness. Then they all sing Arti, solemn-faced and hurry home to meditate with a bit more effort than before.) Don't you think the communal-therapy was a major factor that provided the social glue for the cult? And that Margie made a serious error of judgement when he imagined that premies would prefer a video-only experience. The mass fallaway in numbers around 1982 certainly coincided with the end of satsang as we knew it. (Prehaps premies finally succumbed to their minds - praise the lord!)

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Date: Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 00:04:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I just love it when you talk that way, Nige Message:

Riffing on satsang is like playing old favorite tunes from my childhood. Fun eh?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:01:58 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: acting out, huffing glue Message:

You hit the nail on the head--I am chuckling here to myself. I was one of those spaced out premies who used to give the weirdest satsang --too 'intellectual' (although I do not consider myself to be all that intellectual a person)-- and I could see it on the faces of the premies staring back at me. 'Oh no, here's that weird chick and I have to listen to her mind-y satsang--bummer.' It was disconcerting in the extreme. But their faces relaxed and lightened when I got to the requisite lines about being so complicated and so grateful to M for accepting me for who I am even though I am so crazy. I do agree that these cathartic confessions were what brought us together--the weary, weak, and similarly burdened with this strange religion. But part of me ALWAYS rebelled against it, I never truly gave into the experience so it was always very mixed for me. Part of me knew it was damaging and that I was throwing my dignity on the altar of self-destructiveness. I think all of us had this inkling deep down within us, that we were huffing something bad for us, like disenfranchised adolescents in the back of a parking lot, no matter how blissful it was. It was extreme and risky and that was part of the high, it was kind of like the rebellious child in us acting out and getting encouraged for it by the group.

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Date: Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 20:43:40 (GMT) From: just someone Email: None To: Helen & Nigel Subject: ***BEST OF*** these 2 posts nt Message:

***BEST OF*** these 2 posts nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:53:53 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Helen Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

In the mid 80s, I was doing service at a program and saw an interaction between Joan Apter and Maharaji. Joan was pissed off at him, he was acting like it didn't faze him. I didn't take in what he or she said, I think it was too confronting to my concept of him. Something was definitely wrong was the picture. I was acting the innocent nieve premie, and oh my, he smiled at me and I got tears in my eyes. I was thinking, 'What's wrong with her? See, I'm the real devotee.' Now I wonder what she was mad about. Boy, if we could get her to talk. At the same program, I saw Maharaji's wife Marolyn. She did not seem at all like the sweet beautific blissed-out devotee on the stage. She seemed on edge, a bit angry, and was walking hurredly. I wondered about that. Also at the same program, I saw Maharaji three other times behind the scenes, one time he acted annoyed because either no one opened the door for him or it wasn't opened fast enough. The other two times, he just seemed like a normal person doing a job. I rationalized the whole thing away (lila). Oh, and some 'bongo' premie jumped out of some bushes to see him. He acted very aloof and condescending, like he was tolerating an annoyance. It reminds me of seeing actors/actresses being interviewed. Some seem so different from the character(s) that the portray. But when I see them being interviewed, I recognize that that is the 'real' person, and the character is just made up. It wasn't so easy to recognize the same thing when I saw these people out of character. I think at the same program, at least the same time period, it was known that Maharaji was smoking. I notice a lot of big shot premies smoking also, obviously copying Maharaji. That was one of the weirdest things I saw.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:23:23 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: G Subject: the tangled dance of cult-hood Message:

I think it *is* like the phenomena around an actor or actress and that the whole thing is very stage-y. In a way it is a little encouraging to hear that Aptor and Marolyn were angry, or 'in their minds'. It shows that they are still people with emotions that they are well within their rights to have. I feel badly for them, it sounds like a rough row to hoe, giving up everything for this one uncertain, warped relationship. It's really a waste of 'this beautiful life' they are always going on about to be so torn in half. I am glad I am not there anymore. I am glad that I didn't have close contact with M, the less the better as far as I am concerned. Sounds like you had some up close contact with M and those close to him. Hope you are doing okay I saw this really funny movie last night-- 'bowfinger'. It is about a struggling director who makes a Hollywood movie in which Eddie Murphy is the star. Except Eddie doesn't know he is int he movie, they shoot all the scenes with him in it as he's leaving his home, resturants etc.Eddie starts really freaking out and getting paranoid because the film involves aliens and he is a little paranoid. Eddie is into this 'religion' that is like Scientology called 'Mindhead'. It is HYSTERICAL!! the film takes off on how the stars get special treatment in cults, in a mutually profitable way. It's all about profit and each party gets some need met. That's how these cults operate, otherwise they would disappear. In my case my need was to postpone growing up and to find a surrogate family. But I had to pay the piper eventually. Wish it had been different but at least I got here (adulthood) one way or another. I really can't spend my time shaking my fist at God and feeling angry about it anymore. It happened and so now I am the wiser.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 21:16:03 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Helen Subject: not much up close contact Message:

I didn't have much up close contact except with the mahatmas/initiators in the ashram.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 05:37:20 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

THAT is indeed revealing. When did she say that Helen? Just curious if you have details. haw sad. I mean think about it. She's standing there, thinking she is giving some ' testimony ' and well I suppsose she was. You really got to me with that one.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 20:29:14 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

I think Susan posted about that. I remember it really got to me too! It was as if Aptor's mind's impulse saw only one way out of the mess with M--to kill him! That is the thinking of an abused child, it assumes that the only way to be free is if the abuser dies. it is also the thinking of someone suicidal. This is what being a premie reduced us too. Horrible, eh?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:10:16 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Selene Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

Marolyn, then Durga Ji, once said at a program something like that God didn't give Guru Maharaji the perfect form (or maybe the best body). I guess he had to just grin and bear it, couldn't go off and yell at her in front of everyone, could he? When I saw Raja Ji demoing Maharaji's web site, I noticed some things. First of all, he didn't seem saintly at all. He mentioned saying to Maharaji 'We need a web presence.' and seemed annoyed and frustrated when he said that. I got the vibe that M had been bugged for quite a while about it. He also seemed embarrased by the web site, he didn't even show the copyright page. He seemed ill at ease. Now, on M's web site, M makes it out like a thought just popped into his head 'Oh, why not, it could be good', like it was his idea. I have a feeling that Raja Ji has a bit of resentment towards his brother. After all, he has to play less than second fiddle and has been cut out of being an incarnation of God, giving satsang, and all that. He's just a high paid chump on the payroll now. Or am I being too cynical?

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:43:48 (GMT) From: Selene Email: cynical To: G Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

you are asking the WRONG person about being cynical. but... that copyright page is a disaster and does show dysfunction, wherever it stems from!!

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 06:49:12 (GMT) From: smoking? Email: None To: Selene Subject: Do premies secretly hate m? Message:

so...I picked up smoking in July after not doing it since high school. Does that mean I am still in sync with my ex guru? how not cool. selene, wondering, nothing better to do.. waitin for the meds to work

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: smoking? Subject: copying smoking? Message:

You wrote so...I picked up smoking in July after not doing it since high school. Does that mean I am still in sync with my ex guru? how not cool. No, I wouldn't say that. It seemed to me that they were copying the Guru. It was the way they seemed to be acting, like, it's cool to smoke now because M is, I'm going to show how cool I am by acting like M. To me, they were acting strange. I wondered if some of them were previously in the ashram, where smoking was forbidden. Of course I could be wrong about the situation, maybe they just wanted to smoke.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:13:53 (GMT) From: Shp Email: None To: This thread Subject: past lives of an ex-premie Message:

circa 30 AD: James, son of Heller: 'I saw that guy Jesus the other day spouting his universal love talk and he dissed his own mother! She had travelled on foot many miles to see her son and support his ministry, and how did he greet her? He spewed something like 'who is my mother and my brethren? Those who hear the will of God and do it, they are my mother and my brethren.' He talks about love and then he dissed his own mom. What a hypocrite.' or 'Mary Magdelene, what a whore! And this Jesus, this so-called Truth in flesh has befriended her (yeah, right) and now she's pouring all this expensive oil on his feet and I am sure he's digging it in more than a spiritual way, for sure. I mean just look at her rubbing those oiled up long fingers all over his toes....and just think of all the poor we could have fed with the moeny from that oil. Surely, someone who would allow such luxury to be lavished upon him by a woman of such questionable virtue could not be the messiah, or even a mensch.' circa Buddha's time: Jimji, who lives right near the famous Bodhi tree: 'This guy showed up the other day and parked his ass right under the tree I have called my own for three years! What alot of nerve! I hear he is a prince and has access to all the fortunes in the kingdom, yet he leaves all that behind and has to get into my thing. He sits there near my hut, under my bodhi tree, and silently transmits (yeah right)this peace to his disciples, and they bring him food and whatever else he needs. What a racket!' Maybe, Jim, just maybe, you are out of focus and your consciousness is pointed in a pointless direction. You are like the Hubble Space telescope. You have great potential and sight, if only you were in focus and pointed at something of real interest and value that exists in the universe, and not chasing self-created shadows like the folks in Plato's Cave. He smoked, she looked upset, so-and-so said this or that, he walked in a hurry not smiling, somebody felt something, blah blah blah. Real life. Tell me, do you scratch yourself in your itchy personal places when you are in court before your audience, or wait until you are in a private or semi-private setting? What the hell is up with you? For all of your intelligence and ability to expound, I humbly submit that you have strained at gnats and swallowed a camel. I don't expect or even want you to take my word for any of it. Just file this for now and I will wish for you the true enlightenment that you so desire. I don't pretend to be fully realized or whatever you want to call it (how is somenone fully immersed in infinity?) It's an eternally ongoing process. But I am along far enough to know when I see someone struggling with the fluff, which you are doing in this thread. Shp PS I know that the Jagdeo matter is unresolved, serious, and that people involved want answers and closure. I know that you can hit me on the head with that anytime you have nothing else to say. I also know that I as a premie want to know what's up, and have gotten no response about it to date. Silence does not automatically imply guilt, innocence or anything else to me. So if you can control yourself, stay on the track of this thread. Shp

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 18:55:56 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Shp Subject: Observations not condemnatory Message:

First of all, Jim did not write this entire thread. I meant no condemnation in my observations. I was pointing out that, in fact, these people are normal people with faults. As you said 'Real life'. The reason for my observations is to counteract the myth that they larger than life. Prem Pal named Marolyn 'Durga Ji' after a goddess and put her on a pedestal. Sure, that was undone, but still, he did it. His brother goes by the title 'Raja Ji' meaning roughly 'beloved King'. King of what? And Prem Pal goes by 'Maharaji' or 'beloved Great King'. What qualifies him to go by that title? He claims to be 'The Master'. Who is qualified to be 'The (one and only) Master'? I would expect that person to at least be 'fully enlightened'. Do you think that Maharaji is 'fully enlightened'? Why did he say 'as much as is humanly possible' in the 'Unique Event', referring to experiencing God? Sounds like a big retraction. Also in that video he said 'even if you do it yourself', referring to practicing Knowledge. Sounds like a con man letting people who are really listening off the hook. Maybe he doesn't want them around causing trouble. The concept of 'The Master' is in serious doubt. Do you know that Maharaji has contradicted his own father as to who was Totapuri's successor? Try doing some research on Totapuri, who is supposedly M's great-great-great-grand-guru. Here's a link The God Who is a Person. A quote for the page: 'Totapuri was a strict monist. He regarded Gods who are Persons as mythological'. As for who was to blame for the ashram, Maharaji shares much of it. Maharaji wrote the ashram manual, have you read it? Were you there at the ashram meetings with Maharaji? Let me tell you, he was HEAVY. Honestly, have you ever seen Maharaji act less than inspiring, less than enlightened? If so, was he just kidding? As for his wealth, he doesn't have all that stuff because premies take it upon themselves to give it to him. He ASKED a premie that I knew to get him at $5,000.00 watch. This premie was bragging about it. I can't even imagine what the value of his watch collection is. His collecting these watches is by his own admission 'a bad habit'. So does he have faults, yes or no? If you say no, you are calling him a liar. Many premies still regard Maharaji as God in human form. He still 'gives darshan'. What I would like to see is Prem Pal Rawat abdicating his make-believe 'Maharaji' and 'The Master' throne.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 16:45:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shp Subject: You've got a point there, Shp Message:

I'd like to think that I would have seen through past mindfuckers like Jesus, Bhudda, etc. Not in the course, comic-book way you've imagined but then you're not the brightest light on the scoreboard, are you? Truth is, Shp, I know that I wouldn't. Rational skepticism had so little vocabulary in pre-scientific times. I'd have been in there rooting for one myth or another just like you are now.

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Date: Sun, Feb 06, 2000 at 17:58:23 (GMT) From: Shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: You've got a point there, Shp Message:

Shp wrote: circa 30 AD: James, son of Heller: 'I saw that guy Jesus the other day spouting his universal love talk and he dissed his own mother! She had travelled on foot many miles to see her son and support his ministry, and how did he greet her? He spewed something like 'who is my mother and my brethren? Those who hear the will of God and do it, they are my mother and my brethren.' He talks about love and then he dissed his own mom. What a hypocrite.' or 'Mary Magdelene, what a whore! And this Jesus, this so-called Truth in flesh has befriended her (yeah, right) and now she's pouring all this expensive oil on his feet and I am sure he's digging it in more than a spiritual way, for sure. I mean just look at her rubbing those oiled up long fingers all over his toes....and just think of all the poor we could have fed with the moeny from that oil. Surely, someone who would allow such luxury to be lavished upon him by a woman of such questionable virtue could not be the messiah, or even a mensch.' circa Buddha's time: Jimji, who lives right near the famous Bodhi tree: 'This guy showed up the other day and parked his ass right under the tree I have called my own for three years! What alot of nerve! I hear he is a prince and has access to all the fortunes in the kingdom, yet he leaves all that behind and has to get into my thing. He sits there near my hut, under my bodhi tree, and silently transmits (yeah right) this peace to his disciples, and they bring him food and whatever else he needs. What a racket!' Maybe, Jim, just maybe, you are out of focus and your consciousness is pointed in a pointless direction. You are like the Hubble Space telescope. You have great potential and sight, if only you were in focus and pointed at something of real interest and value that exists in the universe, and not chasing self-created shadows like the folks in Plato's Cave. He smoked, she looked upset, so-and-so said this or that, he walked in a hurry not smiling, somebody felt something, blah blah blah. Real life. Tell me, do you scratch yourself in your itchy personal places when you are in court before your audience, or wait until you are in a private or semi-private setting? What the hell is up with you? For all of your intelligence and ability to expound, I humbly submit that you have strained at gnats and swallowed a camel. I don't expect or even want you to take my word for any of it. Just file this for now and I will wish for you the true enlightenment that you so desire. I don't pretend to be fully realized or whatever you want to call it (how is somenone fully immersed in infinity?) It's an eternally ongoing process. But I am along far enough to know when I see someone struggling with the fluff, which you are doing in this thread. Shp PS I know that the Jagdeo matter is unresolved, serious, and that people involved want answers and closure. I know that you can hit me on the head with that anytime you have nothing else to say. I also know that I as a premie want to know what's up, and have gotten no response about it to date. Silence does not automatically imply guilt, innocence or anything else to me. So if you can control yourself, stay on the track of this thread. Shp Jim responded: I'd like to think that I would have seen through past mindfuckers like Jesus, Bhudda, etc. Not in the course, comic-book way you've imagined but then you're not the brightest light on the scoreboard, are you? Truth is, Shp, I know that I wouldn't. Rational skepticism had so little vocabulary in pre-scientific times. I'd have been in there rooting for one myth or another just like you are now. Shp sez: I believe in my heart that you love truth and justice. I also believe in my heart that your disdain of the world teachers is misplaced. I too despise those who have misrepresented the words and messages of those teachers and have twisted them to create extremely profitable businesses within businesses called religions. (Not all religions fit this descriptions, for all you bigot-watchers, but many do.) I think you have mixed up the two in your head and are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You need to go deeper and learn more about those masters who you so glibly condemn. High tech or low tech or no tech does not determine the character or a man. If a murderer lived in ancient times, he'd use a rock, in modern times, something more sublte perhaps. A thief would still be a thief, and so on. And a hostile cynic is a hostile cynic in any age or time. Your argument is so thin I can see your ego thorugh it, hoping I eat this without questioning it. No such luck. Your heart and how you work it determines your character, not the tools of the day. I think you know that. I am your brother man, whether we are estranged or not. And as your brother man, I urge you to look again at what you have said in these recent posts...For your own sake, not mine.

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