Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Nigel Subject: We should send some of this stuff to ELK... Message:

Thanks Cynthia, Disculta, Anth and others below for kind words, and - especially - some great, fascinating follow-up posts. It's amazing that just by letting off steam on an issue that's been bugging me there's this whole pile of closely-related testimony just waiting to pour out of ex-premies round the world, seemingly just as keen to let rip on the subject. I wonder whether we should send some of these pieces to Enjoyinglife's 'Expressions' section..? No faked identities this time (a la Trojan Horse adventure), I mean just genuine, sincere expressions of what 'Life with Knowledge' can be like. Because that's exactly what they are. No, of course ELK won't publish them, but I wonder what the accumulated effect might be on the site hosts if they received enough of these contributions. They're editors right? - and editors have to read at least part of the stuff they're sent. And never forget that every premie is an ex-premie-to-be, provided they live long enough. (We might even plant the seeds of doubt which would ultimately help them on their way.)

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:20:54 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. Message:

i have had depression for most of my life. it wasnt diagnosed until i was into my 20s and thanks to mj and cult belief, i wouldnt take meds for it cuse they were worldy..i struggled into my 40s until i was willing to srrender and try them. i just started on wellbutrin today, in fact. the way the cult deals with depression and mental illness today is like an insurance company. they flat out wont accept you as an aspirant if you have a ppre existing condition. no crazies wanted. it states clearly in the aspirant manual that only sound, level, stable people with solid jobs, good lives and sane heads are to be accepted as potential initiates. others are to be discouraged and deflected from coming or hoping to ask for K.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:42:02 (GMT) From: John Alden Ins. Co. Email: None To: janet Subject: So Janet, the burning question of the day is.... Message:

Hi Janet- Following up on your statement about how the cult is like an insurance company today, with screening new applicants, and putting out disclaimers about results etc... Would M himself qualify today as a candidate? I guess he would because he's wealthy. But if you take away the wealth factor, does this seem like a guy who is stable, willing to follow, mentally healthy and free from any addictions or pursuits that might take him away from the path? Is he ready to listen and follow without questioning? Would he give some of his money to someone or something else, besides himself? Would he give some of his time to serve someone else? Would he watch the 'same ole same ole' week after week and pay $100/month for it? Would he tell his friends and family about it? But the biggest question would have to be: Is m ready to practice the k everyday, without fail, for a minimum of one hour? I don't know about that last one, that's a tough one, and I'm not sure he has the discipline for it... Maybe he's just not ready, and needs some more satsang...

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:39:48 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: janet Subject: Depression: The irony is that many PWKs Message:

in SF are in treatment for depression or other mental problems and that it is quite fashionable for the thoroughly modern PWK church lady to be in therapy.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. Message:

Thus, for anybody who is depressed I can think of no worse place to be than in a cult - though the message you will hear from those around you is the opposite. I'll tell you what makes it so tough, having been in those shoes, myself. I came to Maharaji severely depressed. I was led to believe there was this beautiful place within me that I could discover with Knowledge. So I received Knowldege and began practicing it, as well as atttending satsang regularly. But none of it helped. In fact, it made it worse, because now I was around all these, supposedly, blissed out people who were swearing by the power of Knowledge and the grace of Maharaji. But for me, it was just more of the same. No matter how much I meditated or attended satsang or did service, my depression clung to me like a wet blanket. And meditation was probably the worst. Since depression happens within, and Knowledge has no power to ease depression, what you're doing, essentially, is using meditation to dive deeper into it. Some of the worst, most empty feelings I have ever experienced in my life have been while practicing Knowledge. I couldn't understand that, because I had come to believe that Knowledge was going to take me to that beautiful place within which I could never find, and hearing Maharaji, especially, prattle on about it made it sometimes unbearable. When's this going to happen for me was the story of my life as a premie. When is it going to be my turn that I experience all this bliss, this joy, this enlightenment? It never happenned. But I never faltered in my faith that someday it would, not until a couple of years ago when I just gave up. What a release of a burden that was, let me tell you. But I can see where some people might go the other way, where they might not see giving up as relieving themselves of a burden, but as an ultimate defeat. And in those feelings of hopeless defeat, maybe some did take their lives. I don't know, but if you believe in something so deep and it doesn't pan out for you, and you think there's nothing else, what else is there for you to do? Have there been such people? Honestly, I don't know. I know premies have committed suicide, but for what reasons, I couldn't say. I'm sure part of the reason, definitely, was because Knowledge wasn't working for them, because if it was, suicide would have been the last thing on their minds.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:36:58 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Phew! Message:

That's a powerful post Nigel. A couple of times on the forum the topic of premie suicides has come up. It's a sad subject. I knew a couple of premies who took their own lives. I've since discovered that there have been quite a few more. You've offered the first explanation that sheds any light on this. Like you explain so well, a cult is no place to get support if you're depressed or suicidal. In fact a cult is no place to get support for anything, other than lightening you load in life by emptying your wallet. Anth wishing it would have been different

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:23:03 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. Message:

Premies were about the most depressed group of people I have ever been around. There was also a great amount of psychosomatic illness, which I think came from depression, and the feeling that one couldn't cope. A depressed person in a cult may cease to see the genuine escape routes (treatments etc.) from their suffering, thanks to the psychological barrier placed by the guru. The Master’s contemptuous references to ‘things of this world’ is in itself sufficient for closing-off the exits, for are not doctors, therapists, social-support workers all ‘of this world’ ? Mere people ‘in their heads’ who lack that ‘understanding’..? This is true for me. Painful, but true. Here is a painful story, for me. I received knowledge in my senior year at university, where I was on full scholarship and at the top of my class. I heard about knowledge from somebody I met in a health food store that was run by premies. I came from a large, Catholic, working class family where education was valued, but I had to basically work for it myself, without much family resources to rely on. I had a relatively small trust fund from my grandfather, but of course, I turned that over to the Maharaji, and that is another story. Anyhow, right around the time I received knowledge, I was notified that I had been awarded a full-tuition scholarship to Georgetown University law school. Well, you can guess what happened. Right after graduation (there is another story here about premies who came to my graduation and what they did that was really amazing and awful), I moved into the ashram, and wanting to serve the living God, I blew off the scholarship and law school, believing that I had the greater opportunity to serve the living incarnation of god, and that furthering my career ambitions were a much, much lower priority, so low in fact as to be meaningless. My parents were devestated, but being the liberals they are, they told me I had to make my own decisions. So, I went to COLL in San Antonio, and then to a couple of different ashrams, and then came 1976 a few years later, and we were being encouraged to leave the ashram by, it turns out, even Maharaji himself. So, I re-applied to law school, was accepted, (this time the University of Illinois), and was even given grant money to go. By this time I had no resources whatsoever, so I thought if I went to a state school and got some grant money, I might be able to work my way through law school. So, this was the plan, but I was very hesitant to do anything that wasn't directed by Maharaji. But then, Maharaji began his long, dark, devotional period, said things like what he said at Atlantic City about the need for intensive care, and the MIND of pursuing your own desires, even extending to relationships and marriage, let alone graduate school, and the rest is, again, history. I stayed in the ashram, and in the cult for another 6 and a half years. When I got out, I was almost 30. So, by that point, by the late 70s, I really couldn't see any way out. In a way, if 1976 hadn't happened, I think I might have gotten out sooner, because my thinking for myself, for may own advancement in 1976, was seen in the Maharaji cult as error, being in my mind, confusion, and Maharaji played that to the hilt for the next 7 years, at least. And it was just like you said. To the objective observer, I should have been able to walk away at any time, but by that point, I think I was so beaten down by the programming, and Maharaji's continuous use of fear to keep us in line, that I couldn't see any alternative. I was like one of those dogs given electric shocks, or like G, being in a prison you think you can leave, but then you know you can't. I was clearly depressed during the last couple of years I was in the cult. I recall feeling suicidal quite a lot, especially when I was in Miami, and later in San Francisco. Of course, I blamed myself. It couldn't possibly be that knowledge wasn't working. It was that I was confused, didn't try hard enough, etc. At some point I gave up and just saw no alternative other than to just stick it out. I really, by that point, had no self-esteem left, or at least very little. When a tyrant like David Smith came through and further belittled people, well, that about did me in. But then, I made some remarkable non-premie friends, who were awfully patient, and I think they sort of deprogrammed me. They were interested in me as a person, and were not interested in Maharaji or knowledge. I think I got a little bit of self-esteem back, and I, eventually, gradually, I left, but not without a lot of pain and struggle, and really, it's something I am still dealing with. Depression, in my experience, makes you immoble. It makes you stuck. It makes you think there is just no way out and that you are helpless. I think the cult created, enhanced, and encouraged that kind of experience in a lot of people, not just me, and since the practice of knowledge was the answer to everything, that kind of mental problem wasn't even acknowledged, let alone dealt with in any responsible way. When I look back on that period, it just seems to dark, so claustrophobic, the memories are in slow-motion, like I was stuck in mud, or frozen, like walking through Jello.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:29:39 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, you know what's ironic? Message:

One of the last times I watched a tape of Maharaji, he was encouraging people to become successful. Paraphrased, he said, if you want to start a business, go ahead, do it, and do it well! What a fucking creep! Huh? The first thing I thought was: ''Yes, he now wants premies to have money so they can give it to HIM!'' I'm so sorry you suffered so much. It was his fault not yours. I'm proud of your achievements in your life and your contributions here are valuable to me. Be well, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:02:39 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: blowing off education Message:

'I blew off the scholarship and law school, believing that I had the greater opportunity to serve the living incarnation of god,' I curtailed my education for the same reason. It wasn't considered 'service'. The thing about depression is that it's beyond sadness, it makes being sad seem like a joyride. It's lifelessness, paralysis. It's better to be sad, maybe the sadness is saying something, like 'Get the hell out of this hell hole!' But we weren't supposed to be sad you see, it's not 'spiritual'. In the cult, depression was called 'detachment'.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:58:59 (GMT) From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Joe Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. Message:

Hi Joe, The whole time I was in Berkeley from '76 to '81, I was pursuing a graduate degree in Chemical Engineering. There were a handful of other premies at the University also. True, learning was not emphasized in the premie community, but I was never approached by anyone in authority and told that I should quit my studies. I never heard of my fellow student premies being told so either. Of course, I never joined the ashram and was probably never seriously considered ashram material either. In your case where did the pressure not to pursue graduate education come from? Directly from M? From Mahatmas/Instructors? From ashram premies? From yourself? What form did it take? David

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:18:52 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication Message:

It's very simple D, and I'm surprised you don't see it. If you listen to what Maharaji said in Atlantic City in 1976, you get what I'm talking about. He said, in no uncertain terms, that you had a choice of either dedicating your life to the Perfect Master, and have the supreme opportunity to be involved in following the Perfect Master, just like the people who were around Jesus Christ had that opportunity, you could either do that, or do something else. If you believed Maharaji was the Messiah, what are you goint to do? ESPECIALLY, when at the same time, Maharaji was denigrading relationships, careers and education. What are you going to do? Would you reject dedicating yourself and following Jesus Christ? No, nobody told me to quit school. Nobody forced me to do that. Yes, I decided to do that myself, but I decided to do it based on fraud, because I believed Maharaji was who he said he was, I took what he said literally, and I believed and trusted him. If you were in graduate school in the late 70s, or really doing anything other than being in the ashram, trying to do 100% devotion and surrender, well, you were kind of a spaced out premie. That was the mindset, based on Maharaji's teachings at the time. And, again, if you believed Maharaji was the Messiah, why would you want to be a spaced out premie?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:02:46 (GMT) From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Joe Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication Message:

Joe, I don't want to get you riled up. I think you feel a little regret for paths not taken. I'm not trying to rub salt in your wounds. Maharaji makes a general statement: 'Dedicate you life to the perfect master.' And someone, probably on the initiator or ashram level, interprets what that means in specific terms. Someone decided that meant no College and that was that. But someone else could have taken the same statement and interpret it as 'I'm going to Medical School and become a Doctor so I can better serve Maharaji.' At about the time you were talking about, Dec. '76-Jan. '77, I was giving up on DLM. I think the heavy devotional theme was scaring me off. I thought about dedicating my life to Maharaji, but then I said 'naw, for the level of experience, I'm having it's not worth it'. I had this idea that all the other premies were having this knock-down meditational experience which proved to them, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Maharaji was God. I thought, that's OK for them. They are following their experience. Given their incredible cosmic experiences its natural for them to want to dedicate their lives. But that's not me. It's just not happening. So I will go on with my own life, by my own path. I stopped going to satsang for the next 3 to 6 months, trying to make a permanent break. Would you believe someone was God if they just told you so? Wouldn't you be sceptical? Even back then when you were younger, wouldn't you demand some kind of proof? I thought the proof was the incredible experience people were having in Knowledge sessions. But my Knowledge session was sort of uneventful, so I remained sceptical. Yeah, I think 'spaced-out premie' pretty much descibed me, and I was treated as such. I'm not saying I'm better than you, just different. I developed a healthy disrespect for ashram premies and their satsang. Sorry if this offends you, because you were one. I realized that I was getting all of my concepts about Knowledge from satsang. It's not about concepts, right? But I was getting all these concepts from satsang by the truckload and what was worse I found myself believing them from shear repetition, not because they were proven to me or they were my direct experience. I would just get up and leave. I couldn't take it anymore. That's when I resolved to realize Knowledge myself without anyone's concepts in my ears, just the pure being, the state of no concepts. David

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:28:53 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Pursuit of other/M was quite clear about... Message:

not having anything to do with the 'world'. He constantly made fun of and mocked university degrees and intellectuals,careers, family,relationships,money etc. Instructors constantly told premies that the only thing they should do was to give everything to m,and of course the only that was possible was through the ashram...no other way... D Thomas, you may have missed a lot of that, if you were on the fringe of a community, but if you were in the thick of it, they would get you....in many communities, they would travel through and ask the community coordinator which premies were 'fence sitters' concerning the ashram, and specifically target them with 'satsang', all about surrender through total dedication through the ashram... I know all about this. Believe me, you were not considered a 'total premie' if you were not in the ashram. This was talked about in ashram meetings with m, or at local ashrams with the instructors, and it was always said that no one could really make it, except for the surrendered ahsramers. I was in the ashram for one year, 1973. After that, I resumed my education, and started a career as teacher and counselor. Every community I lived in, being single, I was singled out as a 'fence sitter' and hammered with 'satsang' about joining the ashram. One day Alan Imbarrato, possibly the biggest asshole ever to join the ranks of DLM, cornered me and satsanged me about the ashram, in front of a room full of people. I not only out duelled him on an intellectual level, but told him that I would NEVER join again, and it was predominately because of people like HIM.... That was an empowering event for me! So, please, lets get the facts straight....the ashram was THE ONLY WAY, as preached by m and everyone on down, for years... LA-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:24:21 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: la-ex Subject: It was all bullshit, anyway Message:

Whether you rolled up your sleeves and made a commitment to the ashram life, because you heard it said that was the only way to go, or you were a fringe premie who never got infected by that virus, and just meditated and went to satsang, everybody who chased Maharaji's dream was doing just that, chasing a dream, doing whatever they thought they had to do to catch it. I myself was a fringe premie who was never put under any pressure by anybody to join an ashram. I wouldn't be surprised if people like me were actually in the majority. If it makes you feel better, I'll just consider myself one of the lucky ones. But I didn't receive Knowledge until late in 1980, and by that time it was almost impossible to get into an ashram, anyway. I know; I tried, and was told there was no more room in the inn. I guess I should be grateful.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:59:49 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jerry Subject: It was all bullshit, anyway Message:

Right, Jerry, Really, if you received knowledge in 1980, you did miss the big ashram recruitment campaign, which in my recollection, peaked about at the end of 1979. After that, the only people really recruited for the ashram were people they needed at places like DECA, and that's when the divorce mill was happening, etc. But if you were a single person with a job in a community in 1978 or 1979, you certainly would have been recruited for the ashram. Joe

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:27:50 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Alan Imbarrato Message:

Now come on LA, don't you think you are being a little hard on poor Alan. He was just doing his blissful service to terrorize premies like yourself. Actually, Alan does deserve it, although I heard that he told Maharaji, personally to 'fuck off' and later apologized to premies for some of the awful stuff he did to them. So, if that's true, that kind of raised my opinion of him. As you know, I was in DC when Randy Prouty and Alan Imbarrato were there. That was 1979, at the very height of the 'get everybody into the ashram' campaign that Maharaji was pushing at the time. Frankly, I think it was because he needed money, and needed bodies for things like the plane project. I can recall talking to Randy about how he had identified all the likely candidates to harass into moving into the ashram, and getting their money and valuables on the way. DC was one of the richest communities, with a lot of premies with decent jobs, so it was a prime place to try to pluck off new ashram premies. I'm sure your name was on the list.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Joe Subject: Alan Imbarrato/Jon Knight Message:

I love OUR LORD MAHARAJI but Knight is a very serios asshole. Even those of us who still attend what you call ...cult events,still know Knight to be a serious asshole...he's a joke but don't let him affect your feelings of LORD MAHARAJI

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:50:50 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Same Old Story Message:

Maharaji makes a general statement: 'Dedicate you life to the perfect master.' And someone, probably on the initiator or ashram level, interprets what that means in specific terms. Someone decided that meant no College and that was that. But someone else could have taken the same statement and interpret it as 'I'm going to Medical School and become a Doctor so I can better serve Maharaji.' No, this isn't true. Maharaji was very specific about these things and initiators for the most part didn't just make things up, they repeated what Maharaji said to them. Again, if you listen to what Maharaji said in Atlantic City in 1976, or in the many ashram meetings I attended with him, it was crystal clear that if you wanted to dedicate in the ashram, education was out. Sure, no one would be preventing you from going to medical if that's what you wanted to do, but the point I was making is to do that, you would have to ignore Maharaji's very strong statements otherwise. Look, the ashram was the means Maharaji created for total dedication. And you couldn't be in the ashram and go to medical school, and Maharaji wrote the ashram manual and gave specific instructions on how it was to be run. D, you were very lucky to be so skeptical. And in retrospect I should have been more demanding of proof. That is very clear. And as has been said here lots of times, premies who stayed on the fringe and didn't give up everything to be devoted to Maharaji, in other words if they either didn't believe, or didn't take literally what Maharaji was saying, well, they probably have less to be angry about. I think the people who got the most ripped off, were the ones who were the most idealistic, the most willing to jump in head first and go all the way, who, once believing that Maharaji was the Messiah, which he reinforced everytime he sat up on that throne and has us sing Arti to him, decided there was no reason to compromise and go for it. Unfortunately, there were quite a few premies like that. Sure, we got concepts from satsang too, but then we were given directive by Maharaji to never delay in attending satsang, and I would submit that most of the 'concepts' we got were from Maharaji himself. For the most part, the premies just repeated the stuff Maharaji said. Maharaji, being the slime ball that he is, took advantage of us. He did nothing to dissuade the wide-spread belief that he was God, and, in fact did lots to reinforce that belief, thus resulting in the damage he caused a lot of people. Just because he doesn't do it anymore, isn't much of a redeeming quality.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:49:52 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Same Old Story Message:

Joe, you said: ''He did nothing to dissuade the wide-spread belief that he was God, and, in fact did lots to reinforce that belief, thus resulting in the damage he caused a lot of people. Just because he doesn't do it anymore, isn't much of a redeeming quality.'' There may no longer be pressures to join the ashcans and generally there is very little pressure at all BUT he still ''does nothing to dissuade the wide-spread belief that he is God.'' The most obvious example of this is the requirement that aspirants go through a ''preparation'' lasting for a minimum of 5 months during which time they are brainwashed into seeing him as god. It is never said but it is implied and implied and implied. Ask Connie or Charles or any of the new exes.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 05:52:17 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Same Old Story Message:

Well, that's what I thought, but if that's true, why does Charles keep saying it's all different now? I don't think it is really that different at all.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:56:56 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: None To: Joe Subject: Same Old Story, remade for a much wider audience.. Message:

It IS different, in that M. is casting his net much wider, and trying to remain as low-key and uncontroversial as possible. He is never talked about as being God or the Messiah. He talks about himself in such a way that, if you were inclined to think he was god, but just was not saying so, you could believe that. If you were inclined to believe he was NOT god, but some sort of precious teacher, you could believe that, too. Remember, in India where the Rhadosoami tradition comes from, the people often believe in semi-divine beings, people who are both fully divine and fully mortal at the same time. They can have all the mortal weaknesses, and still be ''God''. Do you realize what leeway, what wiggle room that gives M.? He can have it both ways, and he does. I have heard him over the years, say various things, like, he is just a human being like the rest of us, he is going to die one day, he is made of the same stuff as we are, that if you are in the desert and your car breaks down, because the fan belt broke, and there just happens to be an unused fan belt lying on the side of the road that fits your, car, that isn't Maharaji's grace, that's just plain luck! Maharaji does NOT come to people in their dreams to tell them to do things, he is here in real life in the real world. If you have worldly problems, you need to seek worldly solutions for them. EVERY human being in a combination of the infinite and the finite. I could go on and on about stuff he has said that implies he is just an ordinary guy who is gonna die one day like the rest of us, but he has this wonderful thing to share with people. He also implies that there is more. That he is somehow special. In calling himself the Master in recent years, he has gotten bold in this regard. He still never calls himself god. But he quotes Kabir a lot, talks alot about Masters generally, tells Indian stories, quotes scriptures, talks about longing for HIS Master (he seems to get by with a dead one), quotes the scriptures a lot, which he never used to, I really hated it when he started that. It's like there is this ''understanding'', that is never addressed directly, that he is something special, but it is never identified. After all if you have ''that understanding'', you don't need to talk about it, right? And he would rather premies not talk about it with each other. All the emphasis is on him. You can have it beamed into your house now, you don't need to be comparing notes with premies. I think he wants new premies to fall in love with him, then hope they get hooked on the subtle bhakti ju ju. But I don't think it works on most westerners, the way he does it now. Not in any way that lasts. And the more he hides from his past, the more it may chase him. What I am saying is, he is having it both ways. He is god, and he isn't. You can belive what you want. It allows him to cast a wider net. This is why when you repeat stuff he said from so long ago, it may not have as great an effect on current premies as you might think. For all the things you have printed on this website, I can think of times when he said exactly the opposite. And the things he says nowadays are quite different from the kinds of things he said to you folks in the ashrams. It was quite shocking to read all the anti-marriage stuff here on the formum, that was said to the premies, and verified by so MANY people, too. Many of the premies have children now, and he talks to them often as one parent to another. Anyone would think he invented families. Also, the Rhadasoami tradition is a religion/cult specifically for HOUSEHOLDERS, people with families. So where he came up with all that ashram stuff for the west, and telling people not to marry, god only knows. I read somewhere on EPO, I think it was one of the academic authors speaking, who said that when the family split happened, Mataji was very upset when her son broke from tradition. Not only because she was religous, but in fact BECAUSE she WAS religious, she also had a strong sense of morality, and she felt her son was being irresponsible, he was too inexperienced, and by going off and doing his own thing, she was afraid that people were going to be hurt. If that was what she felt, I can only say, she sure got that right. I think M. was very young and inexperienced, a spoilt brat who was given a lot of power. He wielded it arrogantly and unwisely. Unwittingly or not, WE helped him do it. As he has gotten older, he's been learning from his mistakes, and changing his tune accordingly. But much of what he's learned he is using to hide and cover up his mistakes, not make amends for them, and to try to secure more power for himself in ways that to not expose him to scrutiny. Joe, sometimes I think you want to see it as black or white, it is either one way or another, like, is it THIS or THAT. But truthfully, it (M., the organization, Elan Vital) is quite a muddle. It's a Relgion, a Church and a Cult, all the while claiming it's not any of those. It has a Messiah, who claims he is not. It says it has nothing to hide, yet hides a great deal. One of Connie's first posts really moved me, where she said one of the hardest things for her to deal with, was to actually admit to herself that she was in a cult. That's no small thing, especially the way it's all set up now, so slick and ''respectable''. Most of the premies would find it very upsetting to admit to themselves they were involved in a cult. It they find new information they didn't have before, it can take a while to sink in, and be very hard to deal with. I always thought of the MOONIES as being a cult. I certainly wouldn't have joined a cult! Yet this last involvement in ''participation'' really forced some issues for me. I'm sure the increasing expense of being a premie is forcing it for many others, too. I can't possibly explain everything I have to say in one email, Joe. I guess it is a process, and perhaps none of us will ever see everything the same way, nor should we. If this forum has taught me anything, it is that there are so many different ways all of us got involved, were involved, and different ways we left and what it did do us, and how we are getting on with life now. And it's that last part that is really important to me. I just want people to be happy. And I think the best way to do that is help people to find their own answers. I'm just hoping that what I contribute here might just help some people to do that. Nice, simple answers are convienent for sound bites, but real understanding is often more multifaceted and time consuming. I think that is how we can really help each other here, to share our individual understanding, and come to a clearer understanding ourselves of so many things. It's really great to see people growing and learning, people getting through stuff here. Isn't that why most of us post here? We want to feel better!

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:09:03 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Same Old Story Message:

I guess Charles can speak for himself and probably will. But I think that when he says it's different now he means the same thing as Connie and Kelly and I mean. It is different. There's this whole nudge-nudge, wink-wink thing happening now. As Connie and I discussed in another thread, he cannot come straight out and say he is god or Krishna because he has probably been given legal advice not to. The cult is now much more sophisticated and is run by lawyers and PR men. It is a lot like the Scientologists. In your day it was still an amateur set-up. It's pretty damn slick nowadays. Maybe we'll just have to take you to see him next time he comes to SF so you can get the big picture. Of course now that he knows that the fags are up in arms in SF he may never come here again. If you really want to know what the differences are then talk with Kelly and Connie and Brian Smith and Postie and all the other new exes. A clear picture of the current incarnation of the cult will eventually emerge on FV. Have you noticed that this active index is dominated by new posters and new ones will come everyday? The same underlying message is still the same but the overt message is different. Most of us newcomers are a bit surprised at how little is known about the new non-cult cult. No, not surprised. Why would any of you oldtimers be bothered to find out how it has changed since you left. But if you are really curious yu will find out. The newbies will tell.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:03:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Not that different Message:

Patrick, I think you have a mispercetion here. Recent exes have been posting on Forum V for years now. People have been continuously leaving the cult and talking about what is going on. This isn't new. I think we've had a pretty clear picture of what's going on. The only thing I have heard recently that has added to that is that perhaps it's even more dead now than I thought.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:06:30 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication Message:

When I was in the Columbus ashram in 1974, I was given permission to transfer to the San Francisco ashram and attend college. This was because I demonstrated that I'd have a source of income while in college. Then, about a month before I was to leave the Ohio ashram for the trip to California, someone from Denver called (the name is somewhere in my old journals) and withdrew permission for me to attend college and stay in the ashram. So, this is a specific example of ashram premies being prevented from pursuing their education. Luckily for me I decided to chuck the ashram instead of my education. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:06:11 (GMT) From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication Message:

Marianne, It was probably very different for ashram premies versus non-ashram premies. What law school did you go to, if you don't mind my asking? To hear your story, you seemed to have made a very sharp break of it. One week you were a premie attending satsang in Berkeley. The next week you were an ex-premie attending law school and not practicing Knowledge. Didn't you agonize over it, have second thoughts, look back, wonder what was happening in the community? David

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:49:23 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie To: D_Thomas Subject: Leaving the cult was difficult and painful Message:

David: I wrote a long post this morning about this and it erased! Arrgggh. There are two issues here. One is how I left the ashram. I received specific permission from IHQ during the spring of '74 to transfer from the Columbus ashram to the SF ashram and attend college. I was thrilled. I knew that few ashram premies were permitted to go to college. About a month before I was to leave, we got the call retracting permission for me to do this. I was devastated. And I felt the same sort of decision forced upon me as when I was told by Bill Patterson that I could not go home to see my mom that Christmas after my dad committed suicide: it was either what I felt was right to do in my life or follow ashram discipline. Well, I learned from that painful lesson Bill taught me -- I chose my own future over the ashram. I had turned 18 in the Columbus ashram. I had always wanted to make a difference in the world, and having suffered tremendous emotional difficulties at such an early age, I was, painfully, wise beyond my years. I had lost one parent already. I felt that being cloistered in the ashram was preventing me from making a difference in the world, something I just knew from the center of my being that I could do. So I convinced my 2 ashram roomies to escape with me, and move to SF to go to college. They did. We had a wonderful trip cross country -- that's when I saw that headline in early August 'NIXON RESIGNS' that so elated me. I remember you saw that edition of the Rocky Mountain News too, D. When I left the ashram, I was voting for myself and my own future. I think my father's suicide helped me to understand that I had to take care of myself, and not depend on someone else, even Capt Rawat's promise to take care of ashram premies. When I got to Mill Valley, where we first lived, I pined for the ashram. I had many talks with the Community coordinator about going back in, even quitting school. But he was a very good guy, and became a good friend of mine, and he told me not to do it. He would've taken me back if I'd insisted, but his honest and generous spirit allowed him to dissuade me from this choice. SF was a very nice community at this time. What happened to me is that I worked for VISTA in the jails in SF and saw poor people every day, trying to change their lives. It politicized me. At the same time -- this is late '75 to mid '76 -- there was a big money push for the Malibu house and also a new car, that M REALLY needed. It sickened me and made me angry. Then I got accepted into law school ( New College of California: it's in my public California Bar records for anyone to see. A public interest, leftist school with heavy emphasis on criminal defense. They let me in at 20!) Law school further politicized me and pulled me away from the cult. I moved out of the premie house when I entered law school. I still went back to see my friends occasionally, but I became an outcast, in my mind to some, because of my vocal criticisms of M's accumulation of wealth. I think I was the first very involved premie to leave this community and really make my feelings known. Premies thought I was in my mind to go to law school. What I saw was people who were never going to be able to support themselves because they were running all over the world to see M and couldn't hold down a job. This activity seemed completely at odds with what M was seemingly trying to accomplish at the time. I am still in contact with many of my friends from the ashram, some who are still quite involved. We don't talk about Capt. Rawat. Our relationships are based on years of devoted friendship, not the cult. If they were or do read what I post there, they'd say, 'Oh, that's Marianne. She's always got her causes, and even if we don't agree with her all the time, we love her.' Maintaining friendships in spite of differences is one of my causes too. I felt a great sense of loss when I left DLM behind. It had been my surrogate family. I was depressed and sad and wondered if I was wrong. But then I began to see what I could do with my legal studies and realized I had made the right decision. I am so grateful that I had the strength and insight to rely on my own sense of what was right for me and invest in myself, because I do make a very real difference in the world with the work I do. That's my story. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:34:07 (GMT) From: D_Thomas Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Time Fixes Message:

Marianne, Thanks for setting me straight. I think you mentioned your VISTA job before, but I forgot. I never looked at the 'Rocky Mountain News'. My first official indication that Nixon resigned was when Jagdeo started off satsang that night in the Kittredge building: 'Dear premies, today the President has resigned ... ' I wasn't into politics then because I had a lot happening personally. It is important because it fixes me and you at a certain time and a certain location. Did you say you were in Denver when you saw that headline? Where were you staying in Denver? You didn't happen to be staying at the Divine Shelter on Race Street? It was sort of a way station for traveling premies on their way through, as well as aspirants like myself trying to receive Knowledge. It would be too weird if you did, because that would put Janet, yourself and me at the same place at the same time, yet I don't know we would remember or recognize each other. I wanted to kill myself (this is the depression thread). But before I did I wanted to see if Knowledge was real. I showed up in Denver and wanted to receive Knowledge right away. When I couldn't get it right away, I stopped eating so that either I would die of starvation or I would receive Knowledge. I lasted three days without eating, but finally I gave up. That was the same day that Nixon resigned. It's like the theme for that day was giving up on it. I staid there for about 10 days, in part because my wallet and travelers checks were stolen and I had to hassle with American Express to get them replaced. I finally thought 'This is a cult. I'm being brain-washed. I'm getting out of here.' I left about 2 days before I would have received Knowledge. But you know that depression went away. I felt optimistic like there was something to live for again. A seed of something was planted so that I couldn't shut it out or stop thinking about it, despite the long months after of being outside the influence of the 'cult'. David

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:44:11 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: Where we stayed Message:

We stayed with Gordon and his wife, who were from Columbus. Gordon was originally from England and a high ranking WPC guy. His last name escapes me (Petty???). What I remember is that he got to attend M&M's wedding, but his wife never found out about it til it was all over. They were very nice people. Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:33:51 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication Message:

Joe, you may not have been directly told to stop your education but I personally know three ashram premies who were told by DLM honchos just that, one in UK and two in South Africa. They were told that a university education would develop their egos and that M thought all book learning was rubbish.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:40:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Sure Message:

If someone was going to school, he or she wouldn't have been allowed in the ashram in the first place, or if somehow you got in, you would have had to quit school and either do full time service, or have a full time job. There was no room for education in the ashram. So, if you wanted to dedicate in the ashram, as Maharaji was saying you should (unless you had the supreme misfortune of being married), you didn't go to school. Pure and simple. There are a very few examples (maybe 2 or 3 people max) of ashram premies who were allowed to go to school, but that was through specific agya, and I personally never met anyone who was given that agya.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:04:32 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Some did continue their Message:

education in the ashram. Where I was about 5 people were going to university. They were already there, before k. They were approved to continue, not directly by m. My take on it was that they possibly had another source of income, maybe via their families, to put into the ashram coffers. The qualification they would eventually get would give them significant earning potential. All finished their degrees. C

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 01:03:11 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Connie Subject: Extremely rare Message:

I was in the ashram for almost 10 years, and lived in ashrams in 7 different communities and I never met even one ashram premie who was going to school. I was either community coordinator or ashram housefather in most of those communities, and going to school in the ashram simply wasn't allowed. However, if there was some kind of rare case where somebody had an income and could produce an income and go to school, that might be technically possible, but I personally never heard of it. What country was that in? I don't think it happened in the USA, at least I never heard of it. And of course, for most people, paying for school, AND paying an income to the ashram was simply out of the question.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:26:52 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Joe Subject: it wasn't in USA Message:

Joe I agree it wasn't the usual situation. That is probably why I remembered it. I agree with Charles and Kelly about giving accurate, impartial information when known. All the best C

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:12:04 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: D_Thomas Subject: education not considered 'service' Message:

I was told by a high-ranking ashram premie that going to college was 'not service', i.e. that I should quit school, get a job, move into the ashram, and fork over all my money. Later when I was sucked into ashram heaviness, I pressured a 'community premie' not to continue college. She quit partially because of me saying that. I regret doing this, but at the time I thought I was being a 'devoted premie'. She came to her senses later and left the cult and went back to college. This kind of pressure happened a great deal. Many people stopped their education because of Rawat and the cult.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:50:21 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nigel Subject: learned helplessness Message:

'Seligman, a behavioural psychologist (using a pretty cruel experiment, it has to be said) identified what he called ‘learned helplessness’. Dogs confined and given repeated electric shocks will, at first, try to escape. They quickly learn that escape is impossible and must then resign themselves to further ill-treatment. Even when a means of escape is later provided, the dogs will not bother trying to escape. A depressed person in a cult may cease to see the genuine escape routes (treatments etc.) from their suffering, thanks to the psychological barrier placed by the guru. The Master’s contemptuous references to ‘things of this world’ is in itself sufficient for closing-off the exits, for are not doctors, therapists, social-support workers all ‘of this world’ ? Mere people ‘in their heads’ who lack that ‘understanding’..?' Several years ago had a dream in which I was in a dimly lit prison. There were no bars in this prison and the front entrance had no doors. I was somewhat aware that there were no doors but did not walk out into the light of day. I had a feeling of anxiety about keeping myself in this prison, a feeling that although I could walk out, I would not because I didn't see the situation clearly and felt that I should not walk out. Rawat talks about this in a manipulative way when he says 'the doors are always open'... BUT And the BUT is one thing that keeps people in the cult. He makes it out that if you walk out the door you'll be stepping into HELL, so the doors are open BUT NOT REALLY. His power over people is through the illusion he fosters in people's minds. In the light of recent allegations surrounding Maharaji's off-stage behaviour, premies (such as Turner) have argued valiantly the case that lifestyle choices are matters of personal morality, and that the Master should not be judged by the criteria we apply when judging others. I disagree, but let that pass for the moment...' I also disagree. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that lifestyle choices are matters of personal morality. If so, then he had no right and still has no right to judge others about their lifestyle choices, yet he has done so BIG TIME, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE GOOD CHOICES. Here's another situation where there's an unstated, implied, hidden meaning. He implies that these choices are matters of personal morality, BUT FOR HIM AND HIM ALONE, because he's BETTER THAN US. BULLSHIT! Regarding incidents of depression, I think the poor diets (like insufficient protein) and lack of exercise suffered by premies were contributing factors. Yes, exercise was looked down on, even yoga exercises. He didn't say to exercise, so you weren't supposed to do it, it wasn't 'service'. Lack of mental stimulation, affection, and sex were other contributing factors caused by the cult. For some premies, the cult is still causing these factors.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:27:45 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Maharaji and premies' 'garbage' Message:

Grrrrreat post Nigel! At the risk of repeating myself, I would like to tell a bit about how and why I left the cult. I was having very, very uncontrollable emotional highs and lows as well as unexplainable illness. For BOTH conditions, I was getting the advice that 'You're in your mind, just meditate, sister.' I'm not kidding. I had somehow gotten my life into a world where everyone I knew was a premie (Miami, early 80's) and the entire belief field I inhabited was this cult bs. Because my health got so bad, and I had the means, I started going to various alternate healers, which started to reopen my eyes to other possibilities (I had been into all kinds of alternative stuff before I joined the cult). But it was my mind and emotions going down the tubes that eventually drove me to a therapist. I had so much transformation so quickly that it led me back to my pre-knowledge path and even though I was sick I got part-time into my profession of counselling and therapy, now with a very different twist. I had many premie clients around the time when the ashrams were closing. Lots of people were flipping out. I worked with instructors and PAMs and Joe Blow premies. I hadn't completely exited yet. I still thought I could straddle the line. What woke me up was the scale of human suffering that I was observing (on top of my own which I described below in my Holocaust posts). In one week I had THREE SUICIDAL people, one of whom I was called to 'rescue' in an emergency. He was sitting in a room with a knife, making threats to kill himself, and I was called to go talk him down. I successfully talked him down, and then tried to encourage him to go into therapy with someone. He said, 'No, MJ said he doesn't want his premies messing around in their own garbage.' (someone had asked him about therapy for premies). This was when I started hearing all the things that MJ was saying about therapy during those months. He would say things to Randy and other people around him as a sort of indirect method of communicating with all the premies. Because so many people were 'mentally irregular' (that's from Rocky I) and emotionally up the creek, I think from being abandoned suddenly in the ashram closings and maybe also at that time the initiator firings, not to mention the DECA slave burnouts, many people like me were starting to get interested in various techniques that addressed emotions and body and psychological stuff. Maharaji continually put this stuff down in a kind of pathetic sibling rivalry with other systems of belief. The 'garbage' quote above was widely quoted to me by premies who really wanted my help, but weren't sure if I might not be the anti-christ. After the knife incident, along with the two other suicidal people (they all made it okay) I was incensed. I had been trying to remain devoted and a premie as well as doing my thang, but suddenly I saw that MJ was hurting people. Somehow it had been okay that he had hurt me, but my mother hen side came out when I saw how his irresponsible stupidity was double-binding all these other people. I wrote a thirteen page letter detailing what I was seeing and absolutely demanding (quite respectfully, as I recall) that he stop blocking the path for his disturbed flock to get the help they needed. I sent the letter to the right place (I had formerly been a Maharaji letter answerer and translator). never received a reply. Left the cult. Nigel, your post is brilliant, and the whole thing about how double-binding the cult life was is quite insightful. I personally was going under with my depression and inner stress, and don't know what I would have done without therapy. I'm really enjoying these incredible discussions about the real abuses we all underwent in the cult. I think it is very powerful in terms of our cult recovery to realize how much we actually suffered from the inner conflict generated by MJ's self-serving words. The validation is a bit of therapy in itself, in that it frees us from blaming ourselves which, as Nigel said, is the first step in unravelling this kind of mess. This skillful trick is that, after not blaming yourself, and blaming, say, your parents who abused you or your guru who stole your soul for a while, a certain energy gets recovered and freed up. At this point in the cycle, it's quite important to go beyond the habitual loop of blame, for just the reason that it is a loop, and can actually cause the suffering to keep recreating itself along the same neural pathways. I never tell clients to 'forgive' because it is so misused - if you forgive at the wrong stage in your process, you end up locking yourself in a box and throwing away the key to your own recovery (I have worked with many people who have been in forgiveness-type therapy who have been fucked up by this). On the other hand, when you stop blaming yourself, blame the perpetrator and perhaps do some other life-affirming things, you start to get some of your energy back. What I have seen is that it is really key to use this energy towards creating WHAT YOU WANT in your life, and pouring your energy towards solutions, not old problems, and not to continuing to resist what you don't want, which loops you. Doesn't mean you don't continue to feel disgust at MJ, and also become much more discriminating about your new choices. This is a subtle point, and I hope it is helpful to someone. Love Disculta on a rant

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:19:23 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Disculta Subject: A wonderful, refreshing rant. Thanks Disculta (nt) Message:

anth the no text

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:24:48 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Maharaji and premies' 'garbage' Message:

Hi Disculta, Your post was a tremendous help to me, as well as all the others in this thread. Because I was severely abused as a child, I had more than M's plateful of crap to process in my healing--I've been chronically depressed all of my life. One thing I have learned about the blaming issue is to realize that 'It was not my fault.' When children are abused, the first thing they are told is 'it's not your fault.' I think that this is an important piece to review because regardless of our individual circumstances and situations when we entered the cult, we were lied to and conned. That was not our fault. Whatever vulnerabilities I and all of us had at the time when we were introduced to M and K had to be deeply suppressed in order to remain ''good'' devotees. This is what angers me the most about Maharaji. Does he not know this? Doesn't he see the damage he has done and continues to do to people for his own personal profit? I think forgiveness is an issue that is steeped in Christianity and guilt, too. I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, and it's very ironic that in recent weeks I have felt a desire to go to church. Well, I went to church for the first time last Sunday to attend my baby nephew's baptism, and all of that desire just went straight down the drain. I couldn't wait to get out of that building, away from the religious trappings and rituals. So I am glad that I had the chance to see (once again) that rites and rituals, cults and Maharaji, are definitely off-limits to me. Spiritually (about religions), I feel quite confused right now, but I am not worried about it anymore. I've discovered over and over by travelling south to Conn. and RI to visit relatives that I must remain living in a rural area. While the weather is quite cold during winter (which is long here), I have the opportunity to explore and experience the natural, idyllic beauty around me everyday. That's what is necessary for me. I can't imagine surviving in my home state of Connecticut ever again. I was quite disoriented. So much traffic, so many negative vibes, so much overdevelopment (they've paved paradise). I actually got lost in my own home town! That's me. Those are my needs. When I crossed the Vermont border coming home, I opened the windows of my car and just sighed a deep sigh of relief. My orientation is now mountains, trees--beauty which I can live with every single day. Sure there are always roving packs of assholes everywhere, but to be able to live here is the best choice I ever made, going on 14 years. Maharaji always talks about the beauty of nature--just look at his videos! (nevermind:))) Yet I believe he hasn't a clue about the beauty of humans, our frailties, our limitations as people, and especially his own evil nature. Some have said that ''evil'' should become a diagnosis in the DSMR. I agree. Some people exist without a conscience, a sense of morality. I've come to believe that he is evil and for whatever reasons he got that way, it's not our fault. I don't know if I'll ever forgive him. I would like my nightmares to stop. I would like to forget him. And even though I come here almost every day to read and post, it's amazing how healing it is here to talk to eachother, to compare experiences exiting the cult, and especially (for me) exposing Maharaji's fraud. Thanks again, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:56:35 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I have a note from my mum. Message:

Hi Cynthia, Much of what you say rings very true with me. Particularly your attitude to religion and spirituality. Remember at school, if you showed up for Physical Education with a letter from home, you were excempt? I feel I've got a note from God, excempting me from all that spiritual bollocks for the rest of my life. We've been there and done that. Anth the born again agnostic

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:35:46 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: Connecticut refugees (OT) Message:

I see you mentioned being from Connecticut. I am also from there, lived in Simsbury till 1979(It's now jokingly refered to as ''West Hartford, with chainsaws'' because they are cutting down so many trees). Where was your hometown? I went back to visit recently, for the first time in 17 years. Connecticut seemed very built-up and congested. They've paved paradise, indeed. So much so, that my parents retired to rural Maine, where most of my relatives now live. Rural New England is still so beautiful. I always loved Vermont. Lucky you!

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:55:44 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Charles S. Subject: Connecticut refugees (OT) Message:

Hi Charles, I was born in Hartford, but lived my first years in Plainville (the name describes it well). Then to Terryville, then to Bristol, on to Southington, and when I finally was able to extracate myself from my home, I lived in Hartford where I was introduced to K eventually. Going back there last week, I was overwhelmed by the excessive overdevelopment...shopping plazas and malls are empty and they continue to build more!!!! In Bristol, originally a blue-collar, working class town, there have never been any zoning laws as in Simsbury. At least up there they have some nice signage and zoning requirement for building codes, etc. Having been in rural USA for so long, I was almost unable to drive around in Bristol, especially with a 5-speed SAAB (a 1987) which is a great car in Vermont. The vibs of people there are so creepy (I'm very sensitive to people), and the ugliness of the development almost makes me cry....but....that's the choices people make about their surroundings. Right now, a big fight is going on about development in our town in VT about folks being able to build houses along mountain ridges, which will just uglify the mountains. Vermont has long been a forerunner in quashing over-development, that's why I'm here. I know many people love the cities. I miss the things there which I used to enjoy, i.e., the theater, museums, etc.; now I have to drive longer distances to get those places...it's worth it. Burlington is not a city by any standards of ''big cities.'' I'm so glad to be home. Love, Cynthia P.S. I apologize for the delay in responding...my computer crashed a couple of weeks ago, and I'm still tweaking it, figuring out all the bugs, and every time I've tried to post more than one message here my browser shits the bed!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:05:10 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: Connecticut refugees (OT) Message:

I remember Plainville. That's just a couple of towns down the Farmington river from Simsbury. We'd drive through there whenever we headed south, or on our way to visit family in New Britian. My mom was born in Hartford, I had grandparents there, so we visited there quite a lot, too. I have a theory about Connecticut. I think the Greater New York area is expanding. The definition of ''suburb'' is being pushed further and further out. New Yorkers with new weath are moving out further to buy their bit of suburban peace. They have finally made it up to Hartford county. When my sister and I visited Simsbury recently, it was not the sleepy, one-horse town we once knew. It had that busy, ''New York'' vibe to it. Soccer Moms in SUVs racing about frantically. International restaurants, boutique stores, a World-Class International Ice Skating Rink. Corn fields turned into business parks and condominium complexes, the few remaining farms being turned into fancy housing developments. The house I was raised in, built in 1860, was torn down to build a parking lot with a drive through ATM machine. The town has a chamber of commerce now, and a new slogan: ''Olde Charm with New Excitement''. My sister and I had a good laugh about that. For us, the most charming thing about the town had been that it was so unself-aware. It didn't know it was charming. Not anymore. It's now a major selling point, a marketing schtick. And you weren't kidding about the empty stores and malls, and all the construction to build new ones. I noticed that too, and couldn't figure out why, it made no sense. I know change and growth are inevitable, and not all necessarily bad, but where does it stop? Where does one draw the line? Vermont is wise to contol it's growth, but the pressure to build more never stops. Isn't Vermont getting some high-tech industries now? I know Maine is. Visiting my Parents in rural Maine was a welcome relief, but the growth is happening there, too. Even here in Califorinia, they keep building new communities, even though the state does not have enough electricity and water to supply them. But it can't ALL just become one big city, can it? We need trees and clean air and clean water. Someone needs to tell George Bush. His answer to California's energy crisis is to lift pollution controls. What a legacy to leave future generations. Shame on him. I don't know what to do other than fight the good fight, do our part while we are here, at least try to leave the place better than when we found it. People need to live, but not at the expense of cutting off the branch on which we are sitting. There has to be better ways.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 17:03:39 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Disculta, do you remember... Message:

any of the specific things that m said in those days about therapy, psychology and other forms of healing? I know that early on, in the 70's, m specifically told premies NOT to get into psycho-therapy etc., because it would confuse them. Later, at the end of the DECA days in the early 80's, I remember hearing through some premies in Miami that he said it was OK to get into other therapies and healing modalities. I remember he actually recommended a therapist or taking anti-depressants to some premies at that time. I feel that the main thing that kept me sane druing the 70's was that I worked at a 'day job' as a counselor and teacher with many mental health professionals, which served as a 'balancing act' for my 'night job' as a typical premie fanatic of the cult. I feel sorry for premies who never had a similar balance in their lives, especially in those strange days of devotion... I was just wondering if you had specific references and time periods, concerning the m quotes. Also, does anyone know if m or raja ji has ever been to a therapist? God knows they need one,or an army of them.... Thanks, La-ex

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:56:46 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Disculta, do you remember... Message:

Sorry, la-ex, I just saw your question. I don't remember many details. I'm pretty sure it was 1984. It was a whole wave of indirect quotes via, I think, Randy and others about what MJ was saying at the Miami residence about various kinds of therapies that the premies were getting into - rebirthing and so on. The general tenor was that he disdained it all, and the only specific quote I remember was the thing about premies not getting into their garbage. When I sent him my magnum opus letter, I said to him that in order not to risk harming hundreds of people who hung on his every word, he should officially reverse this position and let everyone know that it was okay to go for therapy, because they most definitely understood otherwise from him across the whole community. Considering that I gave him the examples of the three suicidal people, I thought it was a pretty compelling argument for him to clean things up a bit, but he didn't, at least not for a long time after that if at all (I had left). And I thought it was very urgent - premies' lives were at stake as I saw it. This made me feel more disdain than I had ever felt. love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT) From: Been There Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Has M been to therapy? Message:

According to Pranam Bai (Kathy Sullivan), M. and Durga Ji saw a therapist (in the '80's). Durga Ji came in 'dripping with diamonds.' They never told the therapist what M. did, i.e. what his work was. After a couple of sessions M. shut down and wouldn't go back. I don't remember the therapist's name, but she had celebrity clients and wrote a book called, 'Go For It!'

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:28:24 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Been There Subject: Has M been to therapy? Message:

Been There, The information provided by Kathy Sullivan is substantially correct. The therapist’s name is Dr. Irene Kassorla. Maharaji and Marolyn began therapy sessions with her in the later part of 1984 and continued for about six to eight months thereafter to help resolve their marriage difficulties. It is not true that Maharaji shut down and wouldn't go back after a couple of sessions. At the time, Dr. Kassorla, who lived and worked out of her palatial home in Bel Aire, California, was known as the “therapist to the stars.” She is the author of several books including Nice Girls Do, Putting It All Together, and Go For It: How To Win at Love, Work and Play. She also hosted a call-in talk show on CNN for a while. I don’t recall if Marolyn attended their first session “dripping in diamonds” but your report that, “they never told the therapist what M. did” requires clarification. It is true that they never told her who Maharaji was or what he did. That task was left to me, since I was the person who suggested that they seek therapy in the first place, and I was also a key participant in the selection process. Because Maharaji had publicly bad-mouthed therapy for years, and because he was a public figure, I wanted someone who had an established reputation for protecting the identities of her famous Hollywood clients. At the beginning, they had one-hour sessions every week for about two-months. After that, their sessions tapered off to about once a month and towards the end, they consulted with her on an “as need” basis. During the first month, I met with Dr. Kassorla after each session to answer questions. It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before, and she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married. She obviously considered this information to be very relevant to their current marriage difficulties. As a professional, she never discussed with me what took place in her sessions with them. My role was to provide her with whatever specific and/or contextual information she required. Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:01:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: this is a MUST read post above Message:

During the first month, I met with Dr. Kassorla after each session to answer questions. It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before, and she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married. She obviously considered this information to be very relevant to their current marriage difficulties. Michael, I am starting to think that the screenplay should be 'Being Michael Dettmers' This is just surreal stuff you have to say. I just cannot fathom what this must have been like.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:04:23 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: also...shared of Soprano's huh? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 07:17:32 (GMT) From: Been There Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks Michael Message:

Michael, thanks for the clarification. The conversation with Kathy Sullivan was a long time ago, and my memory of what she said was sketchy. I had no idea you played a role in either finding the therapist or consulting with her. That they went for six to eight months is impressive.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:33:30 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ? Message:

'My role was to provide her with whatever specific and/or contextual information she required.' Are you free to comment what info she wanted?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:40:51 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: JTF Subject: Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ? Message:

Not beyond what I already said, namely that 'she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married.'

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:45:31 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ? Message:

Thanks anyway...I understand why you can't speak completely free but I really do appreciate what you do contribute.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Michael Subject: M went to therapy? My jaw just dropped. Message:

That is an amazing piece of history Michael and thanks for sharing it. I do recall now that at a mid-80's program Maharaji mentioned the book 'Go For It' in a positive way. Because I was beginning to look closer at myself via 'head books', I took it as a ray of hope that M was talking about other resources. Naturally, my wife and I went out and bought the book. I wonder now if he was truly committed to the therapy and if so what revelations there were. Too bad that process only lasted a short while.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:06:51 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Great Post, Nigel... Message:

Hi Nigel! I appreciate what you said because the conflict of ''being in one's mind'' versus ''surrendering to M and K'' caused me and many other premies much mental suffering. How could we reconcile going to a therapist or psychiatrist when the nature of such treatment would mean examining feelings and thoughts? We couldn't. I agree that EV should acknowledge suicides and depression, but it will never happen IMO. Because K and M are presented as a panacea to all suffering in life, the resulting brainwashing prevents one from going against the teachings of the ''master.'' I don't think it would be possible for EV or M to admit that any follower would need outside help. It's plain cult dynamics. It is a catch-22, a double bind. Even in these days of K-Lite, I can't imagine that M would ever admit he has failed at anything, nor would his inner circle. I think the best approach is to continue to present information to premies/PKWs that the whole thing is a bunch of crap. Good explanation of the various types of depression, Nigel, thanks. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:52:18 (GMT) From: Been There Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Inaccurate info Message:

Cynthia, K and M are NO LONGER presented as the panaceas to all suffering in life. That is simply inaccurate. However, that was the case years ago. Outside help is currently acknowledged as sometimes needed and useful, in fact, several devoted premies who are PAM's are therapists themselves, and their clients are premies. Your information is outdated.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:46:07 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Been There Subject: Panacea Message:

Cynthia, K and M are NO LONGER presented as the panaceas to all suffering in life. Of course it is. Even though M himself tries to claim it's not, in the next breath he'll start gushing about this wonderful, perfect place within that's readily available. If that's not a cure-all for whatever ails you, what is? Unless, it's not there sometimes, and you have to go to professional help to get you through. Is that the case? Sometimes you can find this beautiful place and others you can't? When you can, all is fine and good, when you can't, go to a shrink? Think of what you're saying, Been There. When you do, you'll agree, I'm sure, just how fucking senseless Maharaji can be in things he says. Just because he says Knowledge isn't a panacea doesn't discard the fact that it's definitely presented that way.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:06:50 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jerry Subject: He certainly DOES present it as a panacea - Message:

- you're absolutely right there, Jerry And if you, Been There, doubt that, then ask yourself why EV posted the following earlier this week . . '- the key here is to achieve the balance, and nothing will allow you to achieve that balance more beautifully than Knowledge. Nothing will allow you to achieve that balance more beautifully than understanding. Nothing will allow you to achieve that balance more beautifully than you - you - shrugging off those labels, shrugging off that excess baggage and saying: 'Okay. Life, I'm yours, and you are mine. Now, let's live. Let's exist.' Not in pain, not in ambiguity, not in suffering, not in guilt, not in sorrow But, live this existence as it truly is.' Maharaji in London, 14th June 1998

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:29:07 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Been There Subject: Precisely, keep it only within the family Message:

Very convenient.....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:46:56 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Been There Subject: Bait and Switch Message:

True, knowledge was presented as panacea of all suffering, but after receiving it, and finding out that most defintely isn't the case, Maharaji used the whole 'mind' issue as an excuse for why it didn't turn out like promised. It is hard to understand what the hell knowledge is supposed to do these days. Maharaji presents this vague idea that you are in the desert, thirsty, and knowledge quenches the thirst. It is entirely a self-proclaimed problem and solution, with apparently no effect whatsoever on any other part of your life. It's so thin, I can see why he has such a very hard time attracting any new cult members.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 21:46:51 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Been There Subject: Inaccurate info/ legal necessities Message:

While I was still trapped within/inside the cult, rawat did soften on the need for some to seek professional help. I was told, confidentially, that there were legal aspects involved in pig boy's softening. This legal fear also had much to do with the need for the Rejoice Cult Events in the late 80's. If you recall, pig boy said we had been taught wrong light technique(blame it on the Mahatma's, again). No more eye gouging that seemed to be causing some problems for some avid seekers of THE DONUT.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:54:15 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: all Subject: K is not a pschological cure Message:

I was talking with a friend - 70'sPWK - and out of the blue they said after going to the Oxnard program something 'shifted'. This person said they were grieving the loss of Knowledge as a cure-all. Grief is a good thing if it is replacing depression / numbness. They finally got that in order to move ahead psycholgically, they had to take the bull by the horns and work on themselves and not expect that M&K were going to heal them. This may sound pretty obvious to most but a profound revelation to that person. Because of this new view of K they thought it was too expensive to go to Amaroo just for a darshan buzz. I'm guessing there are thousands of PWK's out there believing in M&K as a panacea.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:04:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Postie Subject: K is not a pschological cure Message:

Hi Postie, Was that person you talked to saying the Oxnard program caused them to start feeling that Maharaji was NOT the panacea? Or were they already feeling that? I think programming dies hard. I agree there are probably lots of PWKs who believe that knowledge is THE answer. I mean, Maharaji sort of says that, although he hedges a lot more than he used to. So, I ask what I asked above. If knowledge used to be the answer, the panacea, but at some point it STOPPED being the panacea, don't PWKs feel just a bit resentful for being led to believe by Maharaji that it was, with all the things they did in their lives as a result, that they otherwise wouldn't have done? And what is left? You practice knowledge, which the solution for a problem that didn't exist until Maharaji told you it did. And it has no effect on you or the rest of your life. I mean, other than belonging to this PWK club, what is actually there?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:32:00 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Joe Subject: K is not a psychological cure Message:

Well, this person has done a least a decade of regular therapy and I think finally realized that they never made progress because down deep they were relying on K for the 'cure'. Just my guess. So, I think this person went to the program in Oxnard knowing that they were responsible for their own emotional well being and saw clearly for the first time that K wasn't it. When I gently suggested that, in my experience, M never had addressed emotions they started defending him. The comment was 'that's not true now, M talks about the heart and how you need to be open and how tough life was sometimes . . .' so I didn't push it. But the crack is in the dike and the water is dripping through. In a thread you started below on what our vision / imagination was, it was amazing to me how much the young Guru was a giant DiamondVision screen we could project our collective vision on. Whatever we needed him to be, he was it. It started out simply enough but M never denied those visions. He has reimaged himself over the years so what's left are four techniques and some convoluted and slyly implied devotional path. No steak and no sizzle, just smoke and mirrors.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:11:42 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Postie Subject: But Psychology can be a K cure!.....nt Message:

vv

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:41:04 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: la-ex Subject: The Psychology you can't get in Knowledge nt Message:

nt

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