Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:31:15 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Everyone Subject: Some Answers Message:

Some of you have asked questions about Maharaji and Marolyn’s therapy sessions with Dr. Irene Kassorla. I am unable to answer any questions about what took place during the sessions, as I was not present at any of them, nor did Maharaji or Marolyn or Dr. Kassorla ever discuss any of the details with me. With that proviso, I will do my best to answer your questions. First, let me establish the context which led Maharaji and Marolyn to seek the help of a therapist. During the summer of 1984, Maharaji and Marolyn encountered a severe “bump in the road” in their marriage. During that time, Maharaji became aware of a rumor that Marolyn was having an affair with one of the premies doing full-time service at the Malibu residence. It is my belief that the rumor was true, although I have no absolute proof of that fact. I know that Maharaji believed it was true because I witnessed his incredible anger as well as his genuine sadness over this matter. During this period, Maharaji and I became close, almost as friends. He was very vulnerable and it showed in his manner and behavior. He was far less arrogant than he often appeared to be, and his mood was very subdued. I remember during August he held an impromptu program in Miami. I had never seen him so humble and unassuming about himself and how he spoke about knowledge. Many people commented to me after the program about how touched they were and how different this program seemed from the others. No one knew the circumstances behind Maharaji’s shift in tone, but most attendees experienced it, including me. After the program, Maharaji and I flew to an exclusive resort called The Greenbriar nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of West Virginia. There, the two of us spent three days. We wandered the beautiful grounds and went for long drives along the back roads. As angry and hurt as he was at Marolyn, he made it clear that he had no intention or desire of getting a divorce, for reasons I have already discussed. In one of these conversations I suggested that he and Marolyn seek counseling. I offered the opinion that someone with expert knowledge and experiencing in these matters might be helpful, in much the same way that the team of outside advisors I assembled had been helpful in restructuring his organization and personal affairs after the potential debacle we faced with the IRS in 1976. Despite his misgivings about therapists, my argument persuaded him to consider the possibility. Before Maharaji finally agreed to meet with Dr. Kassorla, I had lengthy conversations with him explaining that any therapist worth his or her salt would need to have a thorough understanding of who he is. I specifically suggested that the issue of Marolyn as Durga Ji, his devotee, as well as his wife would definitely be a topic of considerable discussion, given their current difficulties. Maharaji agreed and indicated that he would feel more comfortable if I were the person who explained all of this to Dr. Kassorla. Consequently, when I met with Dr. Kassorla, I explained how things were when Maharaji first came to the West, but explained that he had made great progress in his efforts to shed the Indian trappings and rituals that were exported from India. Based on some very personal and intimate conversations I shared with Maharaji during that period, I was convinced that he was ready to step down off the throne and begin a process of genuine dialogue with premies and non-premies alike. I envisioned that he would openly address these issues with all of the premies and take responsibility for the consequences his decisions had produced. I believed that it was not necessary for him to present himself as anything other than a human being, albeit a very evolved human being, who had something important to say about the meaning and purpose of live. Although the changes I had envisioned had not yet taken place, I spoke to Dr. Kassorla with a confidence and conviction as if they had. From my perspective, Dr. Kassorla had the potential, not only to help Maharaji and Marolyn with their marriage difficulties but, in doing so, to help him let go of his old identity and fully embrace his humanity. In essence, I had come full circle to where I was in 1976, before Maharaji put an end to the organizational changes, and ushered in a new era of devotion. Right or wrong, this is my response to Jerry who asked, “How did you reconcile recommending that M see a shrink to the power of Knowledge?” From my perspective, the therapy seemed to be working. Although I wasn’t privy to any of the details, Maharaji and Marolyn attended all of the sessions, and he spoke very positively about Dr. Kassorla. Once Maharaji and Marolyn appeared to be getting their marriage back together, I felt it was time to extend this process into his organization. Maharaji’s positive experience with Dr. Kassorla made him receptive to my suggestion that we conduct a two-day conference at San Yisidro with organizational consultant Will Schutz. It was during that conference that the proverbial shit hit the fan. It’s was as if Dr. Kassorla had been playing softball, and then in came Will and suddenly the game changed to hardball. Maharaji freaked. Without repeating all of what I have said before, Will and his associate told him that if he didn’t take to heart the enormous responsibility that comes with engendering such love and commitment, he could become very scary and dangerous. He also told Maharaji that, of all the groups he had facilitated, he had never experienced as much fear as was exhibited by our group. He added that, in his opinion, Maharaji had received too much, too soon and that he really had to start practicing what he preached. Finally, Will alerted Maharaji to the dangers of having so many people so dependent upon him. Maharaji was very confronted by these comments. He felt attacked and betrayed when Will’s comments were echoed by some of the conference participants, and so he withdrew into himself even though he remained physically present. As I look back, the San Yisidro conference was a major turning point. I had hoped that the conference would help Maharaji extend his humanity throughout his organization and positively impact his approach to his mission. The exact opposite occurred. He reacted in much the same way he did when Bob Mishler confronted him in 1976. Rather than let the process settle for a couple of weeks as Will suggested, Maharaji cancelled the follow-up meeting and immediately fired two of the conference participants. He was as arrogant as before and he became imbued with cynicism. He continued to abuse alcohol and he began his sexual exploitation of his female devotees. Bin Liner asked why I “didn't you walk when (I) realized Rawat was a fake?” Ultimately I did walk. But despite my disappointment, I genuinely loved him and I found it difficult to accept what I increasingly could not deny. Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:04:48 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: So it WAS your fault after all, MR. Dettmers!! Message:

As I look back, the San Yisidro conference was a major turning point. I had hoped that the conference would help Maharaji extend his humanity throughout his organization and positively impact his approach to his mission. The exact opposite occurred. God, man! Just when we almost got back our fledgling Humanitarian Leader you had to scare him away. No wonder no one likes you. No, really, Mike, I was about to post something to the effect of 'Yet another excellent, important and eye-opening post' but that get's a little old after a while, doesn't it? Thanks for all this, Mike. But who do you think 'Sezyou' is? It's okay to guess. Guessing's cool.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:11:49 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sezyou is probably Keith nt Message:

weell guessing is aloud.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 00:48:48 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Michael Subject: Some answers indeed. Wow. Message:

Your post about Maharaji seeking Dr. Kassorla's help and based on results in those sessions, the missed opportunity at San Ysidro, is frankly touching. A wave of sadness passed over me as I read your account. For a moment I almost thought he believed he was human. That missed opportunity for Maharaji, the future of his work and us as supporters of the work is tragic. Even at that point, if he'd stepped down to this level and layed his cards on the table, the wounding would have stopped and this forum wouldn't be here. Big if. Too damn bad. And Michael, thanks for trying to guide Maharaji in the direction he needed to go - for his sake and ours. Postie

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:44:48 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Postie Subject: I echo that postie Message:

Thie idea that either in 76 or 84 or ( now?) Rawat could honestly face his life and impact on people is a fascinating one. It is the premise of the MRC letter, that this would be the simgle most healing thing that could ever happen in the history of the Maharaji cult. I think he is a sociopath, or a narcissist, ( Nigel help me here with the Dx ) anyway, I don't think he has the soul to do it.....but what an amazing idea. Thanks Michael, for your post. I really think you have had one really interesting life. I urge you again to spend not just time writing here about it, but putting it into book our memoir form. How many people have tried to explain what you did to Dr. K ? It is such an inherently fascinating subject, you bringing the boy god for marraige counseling, and trying to explain to an outsider the culture of DLM?EV. What I would not give to have been a fly on the wall, either at your explanation to Dr. K or the sessions themselves. Frankly, if I had to p[ick which I would rather have a transcript of it is what you told her, not the marraige counseling. Boy, she must have taken some intersting notes! So glad you are sharing this with us, thanks again Michael. It really is too bad that Mr. Rawat had to run from his humanity, if he had faced facts it really would have been an amazing transformation.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:48:32 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: all Subject: sorry for all the errors/typos (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:44:13 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Susan Subject: Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s... Message:

Michael- Are you able to share more with us about this period of counseling in m's life? Having a background in psychology and counseling, I am of course interested in m's take on all this, and how he might have responded and/or been affected by all this. I remember talking once with John Horton about m's simplistic and antagonistic view of psychology and therapy, and he told me a little bit about m's 'attitiude' and take on it.... If you are comfortable talking about it, I have some questions I would like to ask.... Thanks, La-ex

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:48:07 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: la-ex Subject: Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s... Message:

la-ex, Ask me your questions and I'll respond if I can. Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:18:47 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've got a question Message:

Michael, How did you reconcile recommending that M see a shrink to the power of Knowledge? I just don't see how somebody who believes that somebody else is the living embodiment of perfect being could recommend he see a psychiatrist to help him with anything, let alone his marriage. Unless, of course, you didn't think Maharaji was that. Who did you think he was? Didn't you believe Knowledge could cure anything? Seriously, if Maharaji was master of Knowledge, shouldn't he have been beyond normal human tribulations such as a troubled marriage? All he had to do was go within, and voila, perfect peace and happiness. Who could ever rob him of that, this master of perfection? What mere human travail could bring him down? He had it all right within him, and he was it's master! At least, that's what he always claimed.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:30:54 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Here's a question .. Message:

....why didn't you walk when you'd realised Rawat was a fake?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:58:14 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: To Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s... Message:

I have a question? What sort of info did you give the Dr? Did you get a sense of what M and Marilyn were talking about from what the Dr. asked you? I'm quite mind-boggled by this revelation about the Lord in therapy!.Thanks (in advance) moldy warp

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:49:05 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Susan Subject: What Maharaji has to put up with is criminal Message:

It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before See, this is the kind of thing Maharaji has to put up with, his life is so hard. First, he lives in a delapidated house, and he had to marry somebody who sometimes lacks that understanding, that whatever Maharaji does, even if he slaps her around, is drunk all the time, sleeps with many other women even though he has a microscopic penis, takes drugs, and commits vehicular homicide, it's just lila, grace and perfection. And Maharaji is just so humble and loving and he even agreed to lower himself to the level of common mortals and go to marriage counseling. That's just so sad, but he is just so wonderful, and synchronized to do that. I am so inspired and feeling such gratitude to Maharaji, that I want to do participation and send him cash right now. And on top of THAT, Maharaji has to deal with a therapist who has no experience in working with a Guru and his wife. I mean there must be lots of them around who have that experience, if not THAT experience, but he had to get somebody who didn't. His life is just too hard.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:33:00 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: all Subject: for a good laugh or cry depending on your mood Message:

If any of you watch the Sopranos......... I just started laughing hysterically when I stuck my image of Rawat in Tony Soprano's therapy chair. For those who don't get HBO, this is a really great show about a mobster and his family. The mobster goes to therapy. And it is sort of the same thing that is making me laugh right now. In one episode Tony and his underlings had to kill one of his underlings 'Pussy' because he was informing on them. The whole show was great. But the part that I am recalling is when the therapist said ' I sense saddness in you' and Tony just isn't going to tell her about killing his long time friend who was ratting on him. Instead he tells the therapist he had a dream about screwing her..... Anyway, what does this have to do with Rawat... I just keep laughing at the idea of trying to do therapy when your client is supposedly the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent ( lets not forget omnivorous ) Lord of the Universe. Michael, FOR GOD SAKE, how DID you explain this to the shrink!!!!! Well, she's his wife, but um, she is also his devotee. You see Dr. K, I know he just looks like a creepy little guy, but he has thousands of people line up to kiss his feet four or five times a year. They sing a song ' my lord is the superior power in person '. Every once in a while he sticks his toes in some water and it is sent around a charnamit ( holy water ). People consider eating the other half of a bagel he has chewed on to be 'prasad' and holy food. ( Dr. K...I get to have DOOBIES left over from the LOrd! super prasad!!!) Anyway Dr. K, Marolyn may be having a little trouble with this dual role of wife and devotee thing. You see, she is supposed to believe not a leaf moves without his grace, and she listens to his satsangs and gives them herself. But, she knows they are well, sort of hiding a lot of things from the flock' What did you really say Michael? I know it was 84 and probably charnamit and prasad were verboten topics, but MORE details. This is too freaky for words!

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:51:14 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: for a good laugh or cry depending on your mood Message:

Remember the part where he stumbled upon one of his lieutenants seeing a dentist in the same office complex, right across the hall, in fact? Picture the astonishmnet on Maharaji's face if he came across one of his PAMs doing the same thing. 'Quick, Marolyn, duck inot this boutique shop!' 'Whaa...?' 'That guy over there, coming out of the dentist; I don't want him to know what I'm doing here!' 'Why not?' 'Just this morning I was giving him satsang about how foolish he is to get caught up his marriage woes when he has the opportunity to serve the Perfect Master of the age!' Yeah, I'd say Maharaji's a hypocrite, alright. And like a few people here want to know, what could have possibly been going through Michael's mind when he recommended it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:08:38 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Susan Subject: The Sopranos Message:

Yes I just love it when TOny Soprano talks to his therapist. Lorraine Bracco is perfect. Or even more hysterical was when their son had his first communion and was having an existentialist crisis and one of his parents said: 'Can't you be a fucking Catholic for 10 minutes???' That show is brilliant.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:22:05 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: Beyond Brilliant Message:

I actually got HBO just to watch that show and it is worth every penny and them some. The writers on that show are extremely talented.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:54:13 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Beyond Brilliant Message:

I'm toying with the idea of doing the same. I confess I have only watched the show three times all while vacationing. The writing really is brilliant. It's refreshing to see something so original on TV. It's astonishing really.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:18:15 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Helen, Joe, Susan Subject: Another Soprano addict Message:

Seeing Tony Soprano, the head of the mob, in therapy is a hilarious idea and freaking brilliant. You love the guy and hate the guy but you can relate because he's human. The show is extremely well written, directed and acted. And art directed and photographed. I had the same thought Susan, what if that was Maharaji sneaking off to see his therapist in between 'events'. What would those sessions be like. I hope Michael D. can shed a bit more light on this.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:16:46 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Susan Subject: Marrying a devotee Message:

Having been a couple's counsellor myself for many years, I would think that their therapist would have some questions about the rank differential in their relationship! Jeez! Rank is a very interesting topic. It can be like a drug, and also a medicine. It is very often abused, but is not inherently corrupt. For example, a better tennis player has higher rank than a lousy one. In the tennis world, he/she is accorded more privileges, as though closer to God almost, than the bad player. If the rank is based on something real, it can be very helpful. You can teach or model good tennis to someone. But very often it's used as a power tool. MJ's rank is based on false premises, not skill or capacity or inherent anything. I cannot imagine the mindfuck of being married to someone who is your Lord, and with whom you are also trying to have a human relationship in which your needs matter as much as his. Of course, in much of the world, this is still the pattern in marriages. But to have such a relationship in the middle of California, when she is going to school and learning about psychology and all this stuff. How does she do it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:28:16 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Michael, others Subject: Dr. Casserola Message:

Sorry for the bastardization, but wasn't she also the shrink for Nicole Simpson, who gave up lots of privileged information about their therapeutic relationship? She seemed like a media hog to me. Part of why I hate LA. If I am wrong, please do correct me. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:04:34 (GMT) From: Dr. Kasserola Email: None To: Marianne Subject: You are wrong Message:

Marianne, For your information, I am a licensed professional in the state of Beverly Hills and I am not a media hog, nor am I a hog of any type. And I don't give up lots of priveleged information, no way. Nicole Simpson blabbed that all around herself. Like I would never say publicly that Durga Ji, Ms. Rawat, was upset because Guru Maharaji Ji, was a short, fat, megalomaniac with a microscopic penis. Or that she was upset because she didn't have enough diamonds, or affection, and that Mr. Rawat was unfair in being upset that she was having sex with her hunky 28-year-old driver, if Mr. Rawat was having sex with all his female devotees from as far away as San Jaun Capistrano, or perhaps even Santa Barbara. No, I have not revealed that publicly and have referred to it in my books only by using the initials 'Guru MJ' and 'M aka DJ.' Dr. Kasserola Marriage counselor to the stars and the Incarnation of God

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:33:33 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Dr. Kasserola Subject: or is it Dr. Casserole? (like macaroni w cheese)nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:12:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: M. Dettmers -- too important not to be up top Message:

So, the story is coming together. Please forgive me for bringing this up to a new thread, but I think it's just too important to get lost in the thread below. I think Michael has set some real context in this post for other things that have been said, for why Maharaji has done what he has done. It appears to be a recurring pattern with him. Here is Michael's post. The post has to do with the marriage counseling that Maharaji and Marolyn engaged in, but I think you will agree it says a LOT more. Anyhow, I feel like I am finally getting a picture of all this. Thanks, Michael. Some of you have asked questions about Maharaji and Marolyn’s therapy sessions with Dr. Irene Kassorla. I am unable to answer any questions about what took place during the sessions, as I was not present at any of them, nor did Maharaji or Marolyn or Dr. Kassorla ever discuss any of the details with me. With that proviso, I will do my best to answer your questions. First, let me establish the context which led Maharaji and Marolyn to seek the help of a therapist. During the summer of 1984, Maharaji and Marolyn encountered a severe “bump in the road” in their marriage. During that time, Maharaji became aware of a rumor that Marolyn was having an affair with one of the premies doing full-time service at the Malibu residence. It is my belief that the rumor was true, although I have no absolute proof of that fact. I know that Maharaji believed it was true because I witnessed his incredible anger as well as his genuine sadness over this matter. During this period, Maharaji and I became close, almost as friends. He was very vulnerable and it showed in his manner and behavior. He was far less arrogant than he often appeared to be, and his mood was very subdued. I remember during August he held an impromptu program in Miami. I had never seen him so humble and unassuming about himself and how he spoke about knowledge. Many people commented to me after the program about how touched they were and how different this program seemed from the others. No one knew the circumstances behind Maharaji’s shift in tone, but most attendees experienced it, including me. After the program, Maharaji and I flew to an exclusive resort called The Greenbriar nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of West Virginia. There, the two of us spent three days. We wandered the beautiful grounds and went for long drives along the back roads. As angry and hurt as he was at Marolyn, he made it clear that he had no intention or desire of getting a divorce, for reasons I have already discussed. In one of these conversations I suggested that he and Marolyn seek counseling. I offered the opinion that someone with expert knowledge and experiencing in these matters might be helpful, in much the same way that the team of outside advisors I assembled had been helpful in restructuring his organization and personal affairs after the potential debacle we faced with the IRS in 1976. Despite his misgivings about therapists, my argument persuaded him to consider the possibility. Before Maharaji finally agreed to meet with Dr. Kassorla, I had lengthy conversations with him explaining that any therapist worth his or her salt would need to have a thorough understanding of who he is. I specifically suggested that the issue of Marolyn as Durga Ji, his devotee, as well as his wife would definitely be a topic of considerable discussion, given their current difficulties. Maharaji agreed and indicated that he would feel more comfortable if I were the person who explained all of this to Dr. Kassorla. Consequently, when I met with Dr. Kassorla, I explained how things were when Maharaji first came to the West, but explained that he had made great progress in his efforts to shed the Indian trappings and rituals that were exported from India. Based on some very personal and intimate conversations I shared with Maharaji during that period, I was convinced that he was ready to step down off the throne and begin a process of genuine dialogue with premies and non-premies alike. I envisioned that he would openly address these issues with all of the premies and take responsibility for the consequences his decisions had produced. I believed that it was not necessary for him to present himself as anything other than a human being, albeit a very evolved human being, who had something important to say about the meaning and purpose of live. Although the changes I had envisioned had not yet taken place, I spoke to Dr. Kassorla with a confidence and conviction as if they had. From my perspective, Dr. Kassorla had the potential, not only to help Maharaji and Marolyn with their marriage difficulties but, in doing so, to help him let go of his old identity and fully embrace his humanity. In essence, I had come full circle to where I was in 1976, before Maharaji put an end to the organizational changes, and ushered in a new era of devotion. Right or wrong, this is my response to Jerry who asked, “How did you reconcile recommending that M see a shrink to the power of Knowledge?” From my perspective, the therapy seemed to be working. Although I wasn’t privy to any of the details, Maharaji and Marolyn attended all of the sessions, and he spoke very positively about Dr. Kassorla. Once Maharaji and Marolyn appeared to be getting their marriage back together, I felt it was time to extend this process into his organization. Maharaji’s positive experience with Dr. Kassorla made him receptive to my suggestion that we conduct a two-day conference at San Yisidro with organizational consultant Will Schutz. It was during that conference that the proverbial shit hit the fan. It’s was as if Dr. Kassorla had been playing softball, and then in came Will and suddenly the game changed to hardball. Maharaji freaked. Without repeating all of what I have said before, Will and his associate told him that if he didn’t take to heart the enormous responsibility that comes with engendering such love and commitment, he could become very scary and dangerous. He also told Maharaji that, of all the groups he had facilitated, he had never experienced as much fear as was exhibited by our group. He added that, in his opinion, Maharaji had received too much, too soon and that he really had to start practicing what he preached. Finally, Will alerted Maharaji to the dangers of having so many people so dependent upon him. Maharaji was very confronted by these comments. He felt attacked and betrayed when Will’s comments were echoed by some of the conference participants, and so he withdrew into himself even though he remained physically present. As I look back, the San Yisidro conference was a major turning point. I had hoped that the conference would help Maharaji extend his humanity throughout his organization and positively impact his approach to his mission. The exact opposite occurred. He reacted in much the same way he did when Bob Mishler confronted him in 1976. Rather than let the process settle for a couple of weeks as Will suggested, Maharaji cancelled the follow-up meeting and immediately fired two of the conference participants. He was as arrogant as before and he became imbued with cynicism. He continued to abuse alcohol and he began his sexual exploitation of his female devotees. Bin Liner asked why I “didn't you walk when (I) realized Rawat was a fake?” Ultimately I did walk. But despite my disappointment, I genuinely loved him and I found it difficult to accept what I increasingly could not deny. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 02:27:16 (GMT) From: QuietGuy Email: gottagettalife@ex-premie.org To: Dettmers, et al Subject: Riddle me this, Mr. Dettmers Message:

Mr. Dettmers: You wrote elsewhere on this web page that 'Maharaji always treated me with great respect, dignity and love, not just while I worked with him, but also at the time of my departure. Even though we disagreed, I respect his right to make whatever interpretation he chooses. I am clear, after all, that it is his work.' Yet here you are, actually posting material about the very personal things between a man and wife going through therapy. Trash GMJ till the cows come home (that's your right) or do as much navel-gazing about knowledge as your time and patience will allow, but really, now, doesn't revealing the intimate facts about someone else's --anyone else's -- marraige strike you as....sleazy? Good luck to you, and I hope you --and the others here-- can let go of their anger and hate. It's kind of repellant.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 19:48:23 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: QuietGuy Subject: Anger and hate ????? Message:

I must confess that I always find it strange to see this particular expression from current cult members towards those who post on this site. I see very little anger and hatred on here. Am I blind? I find that the majority of the posters here are articulate and lovable. I think that the premie take might be that ridicule is hateful which just goes to show that the premie viewpoint is always that Mahaha is beyond reproach. I wonder if what they are really shocked by is more akin to the word BLASPHEMY ? Yes we are certainly blasphemers here in that case but not usually hateful angry blasphemers. Come on premies , get real and honest, haven't you wanted to shout something obscene at times and walk out the door ? I know that many times my wicked little mind came up with some outrageous comments which I would love to have shouted out. The most common was an old Anglo Saxon word very much to the point. BOLLOCKS !!!!! Hal Hey premies the door is always open .--- walk

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 06:15:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: QuietGuy Subject: Michael's post is neither anger nor hate Message:

Michael and many of the folks on here are 'outing' the hidden life of someone who, in effect, claims to be the Master, God, the Creator, you-name-it. If telling the honest truth about his hidden life would make him look bad, then he needs to clean up his act. M is not an ordinary person who deserves his privacy. If he wants that, he needs to get off the throne, take what's left of his fraudulently-earned millions and lead an 'ordinary' life. Perhaps he can retire to Amerscrew. Michael's been very reasonable in his tone. This is not a MJ love-in. There is anger at times, there is regret at times, some mourn lost lives that could have been, and often, as Michael, Joe and others express it, there are JUST THE PLAIN FACTS.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 04:10:49 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: QuietGuy Subject: Riddle me this, Mr. Dettmers Message:

Mr. QuietGuy, Maharaji at one time presented himself as the Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe. During this phase, he strongly encouraged his devotees, most of whom were in their late teens or early twenties to forego their families, educations and career aspirations so that they could surrender their lives to him. In doing so, he entered into a sacred covenant which he arbitrarily annulled several years later without so much as an explanation. The anger to which you refer is an expression of legitimate outrage at someone who experimented with, and then discarded, the very lives from whom he demanded and received absolute obedience and a lifetime commitment, not to mention millions of dollars. This same Maharaji is also guilty of harboring a pedophile who has caused unimaginable pain and suffering. This situation, too, has caused justifiable outrage. I find your callous indifference to the reasons for so much anger to be particularly repellent. As to your other point, Maharaji is not just “anyone.' He is a public figure whose behavior is at odds with what he preaches. That causes confusion and/or indignation among people who turned to him for spiritual solace. Maharaji’s wife, Marolyn, was also a public figure. He presented her to his devotees as Durga Ji. Consequently, she too bears some responsibility for the confusion and suffering that was inflicted on those who placed their faith in Maharaji. Under these circumstances, I believe my report about there marriage is relevant, especially to people who are trying to understand what was going on behind the scenes to better understand how the cult operated so that others need not commit the same mistakes we made or suffer the indignities he perpetuated. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 03:29:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: QuietGuy Subject: You can answer that yourself, premie-ji Message:

As you know, Mike's posting this stuff because he wants to help deflate the mythic balloon Maharaji's been floating for so long. This shit is extremely effective in that respect and you know it. By your reckoning, I assume, the fact that Maharaji happened to be nice to one of his cult members, Mike in this case, binds Mike to a life of secrecy, right? No matter how well Mike knows information that blows Maharaji's cover wide open, so long as Maharaji was nice to Mike, the latter should never say anything? That's very, very short-sighted. You know what I think? I think you don't want anyone to know the truth about Maharaji. Why don't you do this, though? Go back through some of the older, archived satsangs, the ones where Maharaji urges his divinty up on, threatens and orders us to succumb to his will and all that. Read that shit and then come back and tell us why we shouldn't know the rest of the story. By the way, have you posted here before? Under what name?

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 00:36:26 (GMT) From: QuietGuy Email: missingthepoint@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: doesn't answer the question Message:

Look folks, I'll say it again, just so it's clear. I believe that Mr. Dettmers HAS EVERY RIGHT to express himself as he sees fit. So this ad hominem stuff about 'you're just a cult member who doesn't like criticism of MJ' stuff is nonsense. Slash and burn all you want. All I seem to hear from y'all is 'Maharaji deserves it.' Whatever he's done wrong, however you feel cheated or misled, that doesn't change the simple fact that it's sleazy to discuss the intimate goings on between a man and wife. Yes, as a matter of law he and his wife are probably famous persons and thus subject to public criticism. But I'm not talking about law: I'm talking about right and wrong WITHOUT your justifications by reference to someone else's wrongdoings, perceived or otherwise. Can you honestly answer that in the affirmative? As for me: 1) yes, I've been practicing K since 1980; 2) no, I have never posted here before; 3) I don't go to programs regularly; 4) I think an awful lot of premies are jerks (the same can be said about cops or TV repairmen); 5) I never lived in the ashram because I always felt the quasi-hindu stuff had nothing to do with K; 5) I never gave a damn about what premies or initiators did or said, and I'll eat meat, drink scotch, smoke cigarettes and have wild sex if I want, and K has nothing to do with that. One more thing: I always thought that DLM bigwigs (sorry Mr. Dettmers) and initiators in general were a bunch of weirdos and had nothing to do with my relationship with the power of the universe. Peace out, QG

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 13:16:37 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: QuietGuy Subject: If I understand you, Mr. QuietGuy Message:

you appear to be suggesting that, by writing about Maharaji and Marolyn's marriage difficulties, I am stooping to the same sleeezy and unethical behavior that has consistently been exhibited by Maharaji himself. Humm... interesting point. But, if that is so, wouldn't it only be fair and just that you also took your self-professed Master to task for his sleezy and unethical behavior. I mean, why the double standard? Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 03:04:13 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: QuietGuy Subject: Quiet Guy:reasons why personal stuff is important. Message:

Hey Quiet Guy- Here's some reasons why I think this stuff is important, and why I and others have asked MD some of these personal questions. If you received K in 1980, you might not have some of the same feelings and experiences that some of the old timers from the early 70' have, because by the time you came around in 1980, a LOT of the fanaticism was toned down, although plenty still remained, as it still does today. 1)M had preached for years that he was perfect,permanently in God-consciousness,and had completely 'realized' knowledge, whatever that means. When we hear of behaviour that looks extreme, bizarre and reckless, we start to wonder if he is really having the spiritual experience that he talks about or not.If he, the master, is not, what chance does anyone else have? 2)Many references were made by M and the instructors to M and Marolyn being some sort of 'divine couple'. We now realize that it was a sham, a carefully crafted facade to further M's own charade. Their relationship seems to be extremely dysfunctional, which is very different than what we were told it was. There are numerous examples of both M and Marolyn lying about the nature of their relationship, while we now know what was going on behind the scenes with them. Shouldn't we know if the man we were following was a liar, hypocrite or fraud? Wouldn't you want to know, especially if you bring new people in? 3)Shouldn't we know if the man professing to have inner peace and perfect love within himself that he is always in touch with, has drugs, alcohol, affairs, abortions, illegal activites,and out and out lies swirling around him? Do you think new people would want to get into this if they knew the real M? Shouldn't they know? Has he realized anything himself? Is he living any of these ideals himself? 4)M created his public persona, and promised many things. Almost none of them have come true. Because of this, he is getting the flak that he gets. Do you think it is an accident that he is getting all of this directed at him? There are more answers I might have, but that's it for now. To answer your basic question if this is right or not, to discuss M's personal life... Yes, I absolutely do, and in fact I consider this site to be a great 'service' to others, in that it tells the 'rest of the story' and helps people sort out their unusual lives with M, express themselves in ways that he doesn't allow, and helps potential new recruits find out the stuff they need to know to make an accurate assessment of the man and the knowledge he professes to offer and live by. la-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:21:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Thanks, LAX. You said it all Message:

The point's so obvious yet these guys just keep us reapeating it. Funny how empty premie arguments are, huh? They're like an itch or something. You just have to go there, scratch it a bit and they disappear. 'Til the next time, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 08, 2001 at 00:25:25 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thanks Joe and Michael D. Message:

Is some of this stuff posted in a thread on best of forum? I guess I'll have to copy some of it to my hard drive. I'd love to have the information handy to give to some folks I know in a condensed fashion.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 05:51:41 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Joe Subject: M. Dettmers -- wait a minute--look at the timeline Message:

here!: marolyn has an affair with a guy. maharaji gets bummed. he experiences his first serious vulnerability and failure. he's genuinely afraid he's lost his wife. he has long talks with michael. he agrees to try marriage counseling. his wife agrees. they attend. things get better. their marriage is saved. AND THEN HE STARTS PHILANDERING WITH ARRANGED TRYSTS WITH BUSTY BLONDES HE BEDS AND GETS RID OF????? HEY, THATS SOME MARRIAGE COUNSELING, ALLRIGHT. I CAN REALLY SEE HOW IT SAVED THE HOLY AND SACRED COVENANT THEY BOUND THEMSELVES TO ON MAY 20TH 1974.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 10:31:21 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: janet Subject: Maybe Message:

janet, Let me suggest a slightly different take. Maharaji was genuinely sad and angry about Marolyn’s affair. Regardless of his anger and sadness, he was adamant that he did not want their marriage to end in divorce. Remember my post regarding his concerns about losing face with his mother and the premies in India because she denounced him for marrying a Westerner? The marriage counseling did work in this sense. Marolyn abandoned whatever relationship she had developed. With Dr. Kassorla’s help, I’m sure they came to some mutual understandings that might not have been possible without her intervention. I’m also willing to bet that Dr. Kassorla conducted a “reality check” with Marolyn by pointing out that she had become accustomed to a lifestyle that would be seriously jeopardized in a divorce, and she might lose custody of her children. In any case, the therapy only lasted for about eight months and the net result was that they agreed to remain together. I seriously doubt that eight months was enought time to get at, and resolve, deep seated issues. Now let’s fast forward to the San Ysidro conference. Don’t forget, Marolyn was a participant in the conference. When I said that some of the participants echoed Will Schutz’s sentiments, she was among them. Maharaji came out of that conference bitter, isolated and alone. Even though everyone at the conference did everything possible to say what had to be said with love and concern for him, he felt betrayed by those closest to him, just as he did in 1976. He was simply unwilling or incapable of accepting the truth of what was said to him. And, of course, his excessive drinking didn’t help matters. By the time he started his affairs, he must have been satisfied that his marriage was salvaged, if only in form, which was probably all that he cared about by then. I think that his affairs were his way of dealing with his un-resolved anger and served as a way of getting back at Marolyn. Michael

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:35:34 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thanks, Joe. Amazing stuff. Message:

Lots of gurus - perhaps most of them - eventually abuse their power, often by sexually abusing their devotees. Jim posted an article about the latest one recently: Swami Shyam. Then there's Swami Kriyanda, Da Free John, Swami Chitananda (nityananda institute), Kalu Rinpoche (don't want to slight the Tibetans), that Zen guy in California, Swami Muktananda (with his special fucking table), etc. etc. But Michael's post was so interesting in that we see a sympathetic picture of a guru who is on the verge of being honest about the whole thing, about coming to grips with his mistakes and even sharing the process with his followers. Has this ever happened before? Has a guru renounced his superpowers to his devotees without being forced to? I suppose Krishnamurti might be an example, kind of.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Gregg Subject: on the verge of being honest Message:

Yes, around that time Rawat was a little more honest about the whole thing. He said that darshan worked 'because you thought it would work', he had stopped 'giving darshan'. When asked about how the techniques worked he said 'I don't know.' He said that he could not listen to premies' prayers. He also wasn't so abusive. In other words, 'I'm not God afterall, did I say that I was God?' I thought he was going in the right direction. But he resumed 'giving darshan' and sneakily implies that he's something super duper, like 'God incarnate' or something. The last time I heard him speak he was abusive, using fear and guilt to manipulate.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:42:56 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Amazing stuff, and sad... Message:

I feel my own involvment with M. parallels what Michael described; hanging in there, hoping it was going to get better, only to eventually be forced to face the fact that it wasn't going to get better, and leaving. I agree with Joe that it is a very important post, and I'm very grateful to Michael for sharing that with us. Gregg, here is a link I found on EPO to the website of Faquir Chand. He was an Indian Guru who has often been called the ''Most Honest'' of Indian Gurus, because he denied that the guru has any special powers. It makes for an interesting read, and is a good insight into Indian culture as well. Even without the ''magic powers'', it didn't make me want to rush out and get another guru! I doubt that any traditional guru schtick will ever work in the west, without problems.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:08:19 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Good point,Gregg.The MRC letter... Message:

asked M if he would consider coming down off the throne and do something revolutionary: become the first cult leader to bust up his own cult and tell the truth... so far, he's not biting, but that doesn't mean there aren't 'drips' in his life as well... maybe when his kids get one too many smart-aleck questions that he just can't BS them with quick answers...maybe then he'll reconsider....he's come close a few times, maybe time will tell...

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:35:08 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: la-ex Subject: I think we have to assume... Message:

that Maharaji is basically beyond hope in the 'coming down from the throne' department. We have now seen that he had the opportunity to do it in 1976, and again in 1984, and of course it has been 16 years since then, and it's clear to Maharaji that he is pretty much of a failure at propagation, especially in the West, so he has had plenty of feedback that he is pretty ordinary. So, I'm sure there have been plenty of opportunities since then. Hell, he can do whatever he likes and could have done it at any time. It's not like he has to answer to anyone but himself, such is the advantage of the pedestal Maharaji has put himself on. But I think it's mostly defensive for him. I think his experience in 1976 was formative, in the sense that he saw that if he let up on premies believing he was divine, that they would stop worshipping him, and he would be finito, perhaps having to give up on even the pretense of a world-wide reach and go back to India and live as a second-rate Guru, as he is there. I think seeing the premies stream away from him in 1976 scared the crap out of him. We all paid for his paranoia for at least the next 7 years, but I don't think that fear has ever left him. So, I really think that any talk of reforming Maharaji is useless, except to the extent that talking about it gets premies and fence-sitters to question what is going on with Maharaji, and see him for what he is.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Gregg - there was one Message:

Amrit Desai, head of the Kripalu Institute in Massachussetts seemed to be on the verge of really letting go and becoming ordinary. They had so many therapy conferences there, with people like Marion Woodman, and the membership was getting a bit antsy about all the guru stuff as they were coming into their own power. So he started talking about coming down off his pedestal. Unfortunately, not a week or so later, it was suddenly discovered that he had been having sex with several female disciples despite being married and supposedly celibate. Several of the women had tried to talk about it and he had denied it and therefore the community had ostracized them, and this was considered the real crime, that he had lied and caused the women to be abused. So the community fired him, and he was out the door with his suitcases within a few days. He is still doing his guru thing on the road, though. I read an interview with him and it seemed as though he really never got humble. He was indirectly ranting about people's needs to project and villify him. Oh well. This is all described in the very good book Yoga and the Quest for the Real Self. I think that MJ was much further from this kind of change. As someone mentioned below, the work would have been a complete reversal of his entire limbic brain patterns from childhood on. He needs to do it sooner or later because it is fucked and very bad karma schmarma. I think if money weren't such a factor, people such as Marolyn might bust him. Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:55:28 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Disculta Subject: evolved Message:

It's funny to me how any of us could think that Maharaji was an evolved human being. That struck me as funny when Dettmers said that (no offense intended to Dettmers, we all thought that).

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:15:57 (GMT) From: Tell Man Email: None To: All Subject: 'Too important etc.' Message:

What I find sad is that Mike Detttmers obviously lost the actual practice of going inside himself for his ideal. Looking for something or someone to be PERFECT is looking for trouble from the 'get go'. I suggest that all those who look outside and particularly toward Mr. Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment. Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we all die at some point in our futures.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 10:56:41 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Tell Man Subject: Help me Tell Man. Message:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'going inside myself'. Is this sticking fingers down my throat, up my nose, in my ears, up my arse, or are you suggesting practicing surgery on myself? Explain please. Anth the imperfect who is full of organs inside.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 07:59:04 (GMT) From: Thelma the Fat Fag Email: None To: Tell Man Subject: Tell Man, thanks for your concern Message:

You exhorted us to: ''...pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment.'' I think that's exactly what most of are doing. But thanks for reminding us. We really do need to be reminded since we got so much into the habit over the past 30 years of having Capt Rawat remind us to breathe.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:28:47 (GMT) From: Tell Man Email: None To: FA Subject: [edited by FA] Message:

Sorry diid't know the rule. I will now follow it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:40:06 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Tell Man Subject: Alias Message:

Thank you 'Tell Man' - I shall unblock you now. If you wish to change to a name you wish to keep, please let us know next time you post, ie TellMan = 'Fred' or whatever. By sticking to one name people will develop an idea of your positioning and personality and hopefully begin a fruitful dialogue. Forum Administrator

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:57:32 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Tell Man Subject: PS Message:

I have also restored your deleted posts, at least the ones which were still in my cache. FA

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:08:36 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: all readers Subject: michael dettmers Message:

Just to chip in here a little. I completely support all that Michael dettmers has posted, the tone and substance for sure. the marital difficulties go back further then remembered however. there was something going on in 1983 with marolyn and her 'driver/escort' in miami in 1983 that had us scratching our heads. i was asked by m to drive the motor home back from malibu with this fellow to miami in 1983. the motor home needed to get back to miami for the family use on one hand and things had become quite sensitive with the relationship between this fellow and marolyn during the malibu stay. m was upset and jealous. he asked me to drive with this guy to miami to both 'get information' and give satsang to him. little of either happened. i did not like the role assigned to me to 'get information' and besides the guy didn/t trust me knowing that m had assigned me to go with him. he talked on the cell phone out of ear shot a few times with marolyn while on that trip. the affair, whatever its nature, continued in miami and things continued to be intense around the home fires 1983 84. also while at decca once m asked me about a premie woman he was attracted to. had me arrange for me to get her in a place where he would be passing by to be able to give her darshan as well as check her out closer up. m occasionally asked me about her during 82-84 time frame. i do not know if anything came of it. one long time premie/resdident servant woman has horrible memories of sex with m. feeling very used after the one time quickie when he would not speak to her nor make eye contact. not sure the time frame, michael remembers 1986 range...seems to me it was earlier. but.... i have no personal knowledge of any other affairs by either except vivid memories of monica lewis in miami 82-84 (i left in 84, summer). she lived in the same house as i and was there without portfolio..it often seemed to many of us that marolyn was even setting her up with m. clearly there was something between m and monica then and marolyn was completely aware...and didn't use her power to get rid of her. the quess of many of us then was that marolyn was involved with this fellow and wanted m to find someone too. maybe the other way round. mainly, this sort of thing was felt to be (by me and others at the res. at the time) to be a huge distraction from the efforts to spread knowledge. like the kinky games of the rich and famous. certainly continued to turn me off towards the beginning of 84.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 15:55:07 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Michael Dettmers-Thanks, and a few ?'s... Message:

Michael- Your post about the therapy period was once again quite informative. In some way that I can't quite explain, all of these revelations are helpful to me in 'putting all of the pieces of the puzzle together'. Not only in the M puzzle, but in my puzzle as well. So, thanks again. I have a few questions about the therapy period. 1-You indicate that Marolyn probably had an affair, which angered and hurt m. Was he already having affairs before this, but felt that she should not have the same right to do so? Or did she have the first affair?(I would find it hard to imagine that she would do this, given her view of him. It would seem more likely that she did it to get back at him, or show him that she could play the same games that he did.) 2-Can you talk more about the long and intimate discussions that you and M had at the resort in West Virginia? You must have had a lot of time to talk, during 3 days at a resort. Can you remember the topics of discussion? 3-You stated that it seemed that the therapy was working, or having an effect. Were there certain behaviors or attitudes that changed in M that gave you that perspective? It's very common for people to make fairly quick changes in therapy, but when the scope of the work to be done, and the pain involved with it, become apparent, it is very common for the client to 'back off', and not come back. Do you think something like that happened? 4-Did M's drinking/smoking/partying change as a result of the therapy sessions? 5-Did M ever seriously discuss with you how he would 'shift gears' and level with the premies, present himself differently, and own up to his deceptions? Were you just envisioning how he might do that, or did he actually talk with you about how he might go about doing that? 6-Do you know if M ever tried going to any other therapists or self help type people again, either for personal or organizational help? Teddy Tanenbaum told someone that M learned some stuff from a seminar and then went back to the residence and taught the stuff to the residence staff and his family, in order to try and make things run more smoothly. Apparently things were pretty antagonistic and wierd around the rsidence at different peiods. Were you a part of that? 7-Do you know why they stopped going to therapy? Generally people go less because they feel that they have worked through the issues and don't need it as much anymore. However, it seems that he was probably just scratching the surface. My feeling is that if he really went through with what you and Bob Mischler suggested, it would have been the death of his entire identity, and his 'mission' in life, as dictated by his father/god. I think it was probably too much, too soon, as Will seems to have said. Is that your conclusion as well? 8-Do you think there is anyone he would listen to now, in these regards? 9-Do you have any feedback on any effects that your posts have had on M? I know that there are many people who lurk on EPO, and read without posting, who are premies. The feedback I have is that they totally believe your posts are honest and for real. I would think that some people around M would feel the same...do you think there is any chance that any of this is getting through to him? Or do you think he will have to fall really badly before he will venture another attempt to look at himself and level with the people he has affected so strongly? Thanks, Michael... Whatever you can answer is appreciated.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:32:26 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: la-ex Subject: A few answers Message:

la-ex, 1-You indicate that Marolyn probably had an affair, which angered and hurt m. Was he already having affairs before this, but felt that she should not have the same right to do so? Or did she have the first affair? (I would find it hard to imagine that she would do this, given her view of him. It would seem more likely that she did it to get back at him, or show him that she could play the same games that he did.) I have no evidence, nor do I believe, that Maharaji ever had any extramarital affairs before 1986, which was almost two years after their marriage problems occurred. My conviction is based on the conversations I had with Maharaji when he began his series of affairs. The substance of those conversations made it clear to me that he did not have any prior experience in such matters. Thus, it is my opinion that Marolyn did not have an affair to get back at him. I believe Marolyn craved intimacy, not sex, although sex can be a powerful expression of intimacy. And intimacy is certainly not one of Maharaji’s strong points. In fact, as became painfully clear at the San Ysidro conference, Maharaji is very isolated and alone atop his throne. 2-Can you talk more about the long and intimate discussions that you and M had at the resort in West Virginia? You must have had a lot of time to talk, during 3 days at a resort. Can you remember the topics of discussion? Please see my response to your question #5. 3-You stated that it seemed that the therapy was working, or having an effect. Were there certain behaviors or attitudes that changed in M that gave you that perspective? It's very common for people to make fairly quick changes in therapy, but when the scope of the work to be done, and the pain involved with it, become apparent, it is very common for the client to 'back off', and not come back. Do you think something like that happened? I experienced Maharaji to be much more open during the time he and Marolyn were in therapy. That was the time when we had our most meaningful conversations and spent quality time together outside of the normal context of my specific service to him. That period, which lasted from August 1984 through April 1985, ended following the San Ysidro conference. That conference dispelled for him any illusions about what was required if he were to step down off the thrown and get real and honest with people. The main reason I picked Will Schutz, besides his considerable experience at facilitating executive conferences, was his methodology. His approach emphasized the absolute importance of speaking the truth to each other. His then latest book called “The Truth Option” had just been released and, after reading it, I became convinced that his approach spoke directly to a core problem I and others had experienced consistently around Maharaji. Maharaji cultivated an atmosphere of fear and competition around him, and lies (his, mine and everyone’s) were the glue that kept the whole game alive. In my opinion, Maharaji lacked the courage to take the bold step that was clearly before him. 4-Did M's drinking/smoking/partying change as a result of the therapy sessions? Maharaji continued to drink and smoke during and after therapy. I believe the partying to which you refer didn’t start in earnest until after he began his series of affairs. 5-Did M ever seriously discuss with you how he would 'shift gears' and level with the premies, present himself differently, and own up to his deceptions? Were you just envisioning how he might do that, or did he actually talk with you about how he might go about doing that? Our conversations about these matters were very speculative with me making suggestions about how he might approach it. “Deceptions” is not a word I ever used in my conversations with Maharaji. At that time, I did not believe that he had consciously deceived or conned anybody. Given his indoctrination from the time he was born, I think that he really believed that he was the Satguru, lord and Perfect Master. My hope was that, through therapy, reflection, and dialogue with others, he would come to understand that he inherited a role at a very young age, a role that was steeped in tradition and with his father as his role-model. But it was a role, not some innate, unalterable identity. And that role was no longer useful or necessary if he seriously wanted to spread his knowledge throughout the world. My suggestion was that he engage in open dialogue with premies about what he had learned from his own life experiences. He could speak, for instance, about what he had learned about different people’s spiritual and religious concepts, expectations, and aspirations after traveling all over the world and meeting so many people from so many cultures, and how they differed from his own upbringing as a guru-in-training in a predominately Hindu culture. This could create an opening for him to explain that, by transplanting his identity as the Satguru around the world, he unwittingly enabled and encouraged people to project their concepts of god and savior onto him. He could address the negative consequences that resulted when so many people became dependent upon him for their experience of knowledge. He could speak about what he had learned about human relationships, specifically within the context of the breakdown in his own marriage. I told him about the positive comments several people had made to me following his impromptu program in Miami to which I referred in my previous post, where he spoke from the hear without any pretense. I encourage him to consider mingling more with people, spontaneously shaking their hands and, in general, being more approachable and accessible. This was the gist of my conversations with Maharaji. In some ways, I was winging it. I did not have a comprehensive plan worked out in my head or on paper. But, at the time, it was an accomplishment, nonetheless, that I was even having these conversations with him, and his open and positive responses led me to believe that he was serious about making changes along these lines. 6-Do you know if M ever tried going to any other therapists or self help type people again, either for personal or organizational help? Teddy Tanenbaum told someone that M learned some stuff from a seminar and then went back to the residence and taught the stuff to the residence staff and his family, in order to try and make things run more smoothly. Apparently things were pretty antagonistic and weird around the residence at different periods. Were you a part of that? Maharaji did not go to any other therapists while I was around him. His only structured learning centered on becoming certified to fly different types of aircraft. So perhaps it’s possible that he picked up something at flight school that passed it along, but I was never present when he did. Maybe they took place after I left. 7-Do you know why they stopped going to therapy? Generally people go less because they feel that they have worked through the issues and don't need it as much anymore. However, it seems that he was probably just scratching the surface. My feeling is that if he really went through with what you and Bob Mischler suggested, it would have been the death of his entire identity, and his 'mission' in life, as dictated by his father/god. I think it was probably too much, too soon, as Will seems to have said. Is that your conclusion as well? I can think of two reasons. One, Maharaji was satisfied that he had done what he needed to do to preserve his marriage. Second, in addition to reason number one, he did not want to ever again be confronted as he was by Will Schutz and others at the San Ysidro conference. 8-Do you think there is anyone he would listen to now, in these regards? I have no idea. 9-Do you have any feedback on any effects that your posts have had on M? I know that there are many people who lurk on EPO, and read without posting, who are premies. The feedback I have is that they totally believe your posts are honest and for real. I would think that some people around M would feel the same...do you think there is any chance that any of this is getting through to him? Or do you think he will have to fall really badly before he will venture another attempt to look at himself and level with the people he has affected so strongly? I would be surprised if he doesn’t know about my posts. I’m sure his advisors must bring such matters to his attention. That, of course, does not mean that he has read what I have said or even cares. So I don’t know what effect, if any, they are having on him. I know that many people have read them because I have received lots of e-mails from people who lurk but don’t post, thanking me for speaking out. Yes, to your last point. Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 02:29:42 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks Michael, you're always so thorough and Message:

serious. I'm sure a lot of us appreciate the time and effort required. I know you told me that you are working on a Journey but I'm also hoping that you are working on a book combining not only a history of Maharajism but also your ''explanation for the phenomenon.'' You said: ''And that role was no longer useful or necessary if he seriously wanted to spread his knowledge throughout the world.'' Well, 15 years later he has taken your advice which brings me to this. While I enjoy your posts, I hope that you are not going to be giving him any more good ideas. As you said: ''I would be surprised if he doesn’t know about my posts. I’m sure his advisors must bring such matters to his attention. That, of course, does not mean that he has read what I have said or even cares. So I don’t know what effect, if any, they are having on him. The effect may take 15 years by which time he will be able to claim that your ideas are HIS ideas. I have become more circumspect in my own ''explanation for the phenomenon'' on FV for that very reason. I don't feel like breathing life into his organization with fresh ideas or in any other way make myself useful to Maharajism.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:27:47 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Pat Conlon Subject: Don't worry. Message:

Pat, Thanks for expressing your concern but I believe you have nothing to fear. I don't see any evidence that Maharaji has taken the essence of what Will Schutz and I said to heart. He may have made some external changes in how he presents himself and knowledge, but those are futile PR efforts at best. In the age of the Internet, people will and are seeing through them. The Élan Vital website is a cesspool of deception and lies. Instead of engaging in open and honest dialogue, Maharaji is still pontificating from on high with his nonsense about the 'Master.' Videos of his recent organizer training sessions reek of his arrogance. He has not made a single move to take responsibility for his past mistakes, but instead continues to blame others for his failures. Just last July, I wrote to him about the Jagdeo matter, hoping and suggesting that he 'do the right thing' but, once again, he demonstrated that he has no idea what the right thing is. Consequently, I have no fear that any of my good ideas may inadvertently help prop up his failing mission because he does not have the courage nor the desire to address the deep personal issues that he must first confront to make any of those ideas meaningful and powerful. As long as his greed, cynicism and indifference to the concerns of others continue to dictate his priorities, any and all ideas that are based on sincerity, honesty and authenticity will fall on deaf ears. Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:24:31 (GMT) From: Tell Man Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Don't worry. Message:

What I find sad is that Mike Detttmers obviously lost the actual practice of going inside himself for his ideal. Looking for something or someone to be PERFECT is looking for trouble from the 'get go'. I suggest that all those that look outside and particularly toward Mr. Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment. Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we all die at some point in our futures.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 21:00:25 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Tell Man Subject: Don't worry. Message:

Tell Man, Whatever gives you the idea that I am 'looking for something or someone to be PERFECT' (I presume Maharaji is the 'someone' to whom you refer)? If you read my posts, you will see that I did my best to encourage Maharaji to give up any pretense of being perfect. Also, how do you know and what do you mean when you say that I have 'obviously lost the actual practice of going inside (my)self for (my) ideal?' Just curious. Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:33:31 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Tell Man Subject: And what I find sad... Message:

...is brainless posts like yours. What I find sad is that Mike Detttmers obviously lost the actual practice of going inside himself for his ideal. How do you know? And would you find it similarly sad if Mr Rawat lost the meditation habit? Interesting, maybe? If not, why even read this stuff...? Looking for something or someone to be PERFECT is looking for trouble from the 'get go'. And therefore any person who presents himself as perfect is going to be stirring up trouble, right? I suggest that all those that look outside and particularly toward Mr. Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment. Well you're preaching to the converted here. I know plenty of people here pursuing all sorts of worthy ideals with convicion. Besides, ex-premies no longer look to Mr Rawat for anything. That's what makes them ex-premies, if you think about it. And the testimonmy presented here will help ensure others cease to look to Mr Rawat. By your own terms, a GOOD THING, surely? Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we all die at some point in our futures. Did you ever consider writing a book?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 11:37:31 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Tell Man Subject: You're right Tell Man. Message:

You said, 'I suggest that all those that look outside and particularly toward Mr.Rawat for their peace and flawlessness; stop and look again at life, and pursue with conviction that which you truly think will bring contentment. Simply remember; time is passing, don't waste it, for we all die at some point in our futures.' This is excellent advice Tell Man. Captain Rawat has nothing for you except an empty bank account. Anth who took the advice and feels much better for it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 05:29:06 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Tell Man Subject: Be happy Message:

You're a smart one, dude. Looks like you've got this whole issue nailed. You didn't by chance read up on this stuff, did you? Sure looks like it.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:01:34 (GMT) From: Thelma the Fat Fag Email: None To: Jim Subject: My god, you mean we all have to die one day? Message:

Shit, I didn't know that. Thanks Tell Man for letting me know.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 08:46:27 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Thelma the Fat Fag Subject: yes dearie-even jesus died. no one gets out Message:

of here alive.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael, there have been some times lately Message:

that he has shown that his kids may be asking awkward questions. They are after all California spoiled brats. He definitely has a dual personality. Sometimes he speaks as if he is ''channelling'' the voice of god and other times he'll be quite modest. The ''modesty'' often rings as a theatrical device but I think he believes that he is both Captain Rawat, the wealthy Malibu home-owner, (some of those movie stars also think they are god) and Balyogeshwar with agya from his ''Master'' to spread Knowledge. The past year has seen an increase in revisionism and I think FV has had an influence. I am not comfortable helping him and his spin-doctors make Maharajism more palatable to educated westerners. For that reason I have stopped talking about yoga because I think I know more about it than he does and it might give ideas on how to present it as a ''mental health'' exercise as hatha is a system of physical health exercises. I don't flatter myself for one minute that he would take what I say seriously but I have known a few ''tycoons'' who plagiarise their employees' ideas. The EV spin-doctors at some times seemed to be parallelling quite a few of the thoughts that I sent the Capt via email last year when I was still ''in his employ'' as a humble church lady.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:01:57 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: dual personality Message:

He does seem to have a dual personality. He has said many things that are quite incompatible with the idea that he is the 'Master', like admitting that his watch collecting is a 'bad habit'. He and premies seem to use the strange notion that he is both God and man (similar to the way some Christians feel about Christ) to deal with this obvious contradiction. I doesn't make sense, how can someone know everything but not know everything? How he could possibly think he's all-knowing I don't know. I don't think he does, but perhaps he's much more deluded than I estimate. Many premies think that he's only pretending when he shows that he doesn't know everything, etc. I remember being told when I was doing some 'service' around 'Maharaji' that even though 'Maharaji' knows everything and is all-powerful, he acts like he doesn't and isn't so that premies would have more 'service' to do and could relate to him. So I should go along with this 'game'. I can't believe I actually bought that crap. The idea that someone could know everything or be 'all-powerful' is actually quite ludicrous. He keeps the concept of the 'Master' rather vague, one reason is that if it were defined explicitly and in detail, than there would be a way to determine, a way to measure if he really is 'the Master'. He's always made it out that 'Knowledge' is unmeasurable. Balyogeshwar means 'born king of yogis', another stupid claim because if you were to ask practitioners of yoga, only a handful would consider him their 'king'. The implied meaning though is that only his 'yoga' is valid and everyone's elses is crap, but they don't know that because they are so low and ignorant.

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:08:40 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: G Subject: Dual personality and Capt Rawat's kids Message:

Don't you sometimes wonder how that ''dual personality'' plays out when he's with his kids. Has he told them that he's one with the source of all creation and therefore God (just like Rama and Krishna) but also just an ordinary fallible human being who's greedy and materialistic but who happens to be an ''inspirational teacher?'' How does he keep a straight face when he tells them stuff like that? I wonder what they say about their dad when they hang out with the other Malibu brat-pack? Or do they? Is he bringing them up in the same weird way he was raised with no normal childhood? The girls appear in public with him singing their quasi-incestuous songs to their ''divine lover'' but I haven't seen the boys in years. Amar's pilot leaner's licence is posted here in the active index along with his dad's but I have not seen or heard Hans in almost 20 years. He's 24 now and, as the eldest son, may be going through some oedipal power struggles with his father. I cannot imagine Hans following in his father's footsteps unless he is just as unscrupulous. I hope not as he always seemed a shy, modest little fellow and not a show-off like his dad and two sisters.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 15:18:19 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Pat Conlon Subject: Good Point Message:

Pat, I think you are right when you point out that Maharaji 'believes that he is both Captain Rawat, the wealthy Malibu home-owner... and Balyogeshwar with agya from his 'Master' to spread Knowledge.' When I took over as his personal manager, one of my strategic objectives was to create alternative sources of income for him through business ventures so that he would no longer be dependent on the gifts he received, nor benefit improperly from donations made to Élan Vital. As my team and I made progress in this regard, he soon began to fancy himself as a successful businessman. This tendency was especially apparent whenever he signed his tax returns. Of course, he made all the appropriate expressions of disgust about the IRS taking such a hefty portion of his 'hard earned' (that's a joke) income, but he was also proud, in a cocky sort of way, that he was now a successful businessman with the tax returns and assets to prove it. Your point is important because it demonstrates that he is capable of adopting and believing in an identity that is other than the one he was born into, if and when it suits his purpose. Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:43:39 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael, you hit the nail on the head Message:

You said: ''...he soon began to fancy himself as a successful businessman.'' I never knew him the way you did but I'm an observant old fag and that is exactly my take on his personality. Someone posted here that he reminded them of the guy who buys expensive suits and rents a chic suite of offices and begins to play-act at being the CEO of his very own company. When he began to do his ''business presentations'' (pie charts and slide-shows - yuk) in the late 80s that's when my first drips started happening because he reminded me so much of the spoilt brat yuppies dashing about in the SUVs fellating their cell-phones and blaring their horns at old ladies who dared to hold them up. My charitable take is that he is stuck in some sort of infantilism. Less charitably, I think he is a total phony. If he had not trampled on the rights of others so insouciantly he would simply be a pathetically pitiable impostor. The great ''Pretender.'' Walter Mitty.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 18:50:21 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: FA, please, pretty please, Message:

put the at end of first paragraph since I forgot. Thank you, sweetie darling. I wish you absolute fabulosity.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:37:22 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: FA, thanks, you're a good sport NT Message:

c

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