Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:29:50 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Michael Donner post from way below Message:

I have taken the liberty of reposting Michael Donner's post from the bottom of the thread with Dettmers and co on MJ's sex-life etc. way below: Michael Donner said: 'Just to chip in here a little. I completely support all that Michael dettmers has posted, the tone and substance for sure. the marital difficulties go back further then remembered however. there was something going on in 1983 with marolyn and her 'driver/escort' in miami in 1983 that had us scratching our heads. i was asked by m to drive the motor home back from malibu with this fellow to miami in 1983. the motor home needed to get back to miami for the family use on one hand and things had become quite sensitive with the relationship between this fellow and marolyn during the malibu stay. m was upset and jealous. he asked me to drive with this guy to miami to both 'get information' and give satsang to him. little of either happened. i did not like the role assigned to me to 'get information' and besides the guy didn/t trust me knowing that m had assigned me to go with him. he talked on the cell phone out of ear shot a few times with marolyn while on that trip. the affair, whatever its nature, continued in miami and things continued to be intense around the home fires 1983 84. also while at decca once m asked me about a premie woman he was attracted to. had me arrange for me to get her in a place where he would be passing by to be able to give her darshan as well as check her out closer up. m occasionally asked me about her during 82-84 time frame. i do not know if anything came of it. one long time premie/resdident servant woman has horrible memories of sex with m. feeling very used after the one time quickie when he would not speak to her nor make eye contact. not sure the time frame, michael remembers 1986 range...seems to me it was earlier. but.... i have no personal knowledge of any other affairs by either except vivid memories of monica lewis in miami 82-84 (i left in 84, summer). she lived in the same house as i and was there without portfolio..it often seemed to many of us that marolyn was even setting her up with m. clearly there was something between m and monica then and marolyn was completely aware...and didn't use her power to get rid of her. the quess of many of us then was that marolyn was involved with this fellow and wanted m to find someone too. maybe the other way round. mainly, this sort of thing was felt to be (by me and others at the res. at the time) to be a huge distraction from the efforts to spread knowledge. like the kinky games of the rich and famous. certainly continued to turn me off towards the beginning of 84. '

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 22:09:43 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Michael Donner Subject: Welcome aboard!!! Message:

Michael, Just checked in and am so glad to see that you have joined the conversation. I know you have much to contribute that will benefit us all. Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 22:00:44 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Michael Donner Subject: To Michael Donner and Everyone Message:

Thanks, Disculta for bringing this post up to the top. I would have missed it completely. To Michael Donner, I want to express my appreciation for your courage in posting what you experienced with Maharaji and Marolyn. I, too, believe, that because Marolyn is an adult, that she does bear responsibility for what happens in that cult. She certainly benefits from it financially.... Most of all, I want you to know that I have never posted as an alias, except when joking about something to give us some comic relief. The process of extracting oneself from a personality cult is difficult. To have someone like you and Michael Dettmers talk to us about first hand information is vital. It is the essence of that first hand information that dispells all of our speculation or at least verifies our gossip. Thank you for coming out here. It's a unique message board, don't you think? It helps us to heal from the emotional and spiritual damage done by Maharaji, as well as afford us the opportunity to express to eachother things we never dared to say while we were so entrenched within Maharaji's cult. The key word here is cult. Any information and insights you provide will be most appreciated by me and so many others here. Thanks again for your appearance.... Warm regards, Cynthia Gracie

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:29:27 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Michael Donner post from way below Message:

had me arrange for me to get her in a place where he would be passing by to be able to give her darshan as well as check her out closer up. I'm sorry. I just had to laugh when I read this. What a move! I wish I could do that! Hahaha! mainly, this sort of thing was felt to be (by me and others at the res. at the time) to be a huge distraction from the efforts to spread knowledge. like the kinky games of the rich and famous. No, just an abuse of power by people who have no right having it. This stuff is great. Talk about cutting people down to size. I wonder what CD and Mel Bourne and all the others think of this. How long can you bury your head in the sand? How many times can you call the same story hearsay? In a way, I feel sorry for premies holding out. When, all your life, you've based your reason for living on faith in one particular person, it kinda hurts when you see that faith was misplaced. But hey, there isn't an ex here who didn't go through it, themselves. You get over it soon enough.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:37:42 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Hey, Michael Donner, you showed up!!! Message:

It seems that Maharaji had quite a few Michael's around. Michael Donner, we've been waiting. Thanks for showing up! Your input here is very welcomed.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:56:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Way Subject: I've got something to apologize for a bit, Mike Message:

Hi Mike, Jim Heller here. My girlfriend, Laurie, and I really enjoyed the evening we spent with you and Gary a couple of summers ago. Loved your set up out there as well. Beautiful place. I'm grateful that you've chosen to speak up now. You can already see what a difference a Mike makes. I, too, hope you'll stick around to debrief with the rest of us (ad infinitum??). And I know that, if you do, you'll get a lot from the process yourself. Even if you think, now, that you've got the whole picture due to your unique vantage point back then, you'll find, as I'm sure you already expect, all sorts of missing bits in the puzzle here. Plus, you'll find that it helps you come to terms with all this shit just talking about it. I'm sure the other Mike (what's his last name? I forget.) has told you that he's benefitted from contributing here. But I need to apologize to you. I think that I posted a couple of reports of our meeting that were less than fully respectful or complimentary of you. You might have read those. Without belabouring the point, I think that I was just venting my frustration that no former PAMs were willing to say dick about Maharaji. Sure, you and Gary were candid with Laurie and me but I so much wanted you guys to 'tell the world'. You know, I think I explained how I felt at dinner that night. Well, guess what? That's how I felt. Anyway, I'm really glad to see you here. Laurie and I enjoyed our evening with you guys. Maybe we'll see you again sometime. By the way, how's Gary?

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:11:10 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Jim Subject: I've got something to apologize for a bit, Mike Message:

thanks for your comments jim, i was put off to be honest and consequently decided not to post back then in part because of it. some push me pull me going on...like encouraging PAMs to post while you others had not very flattering stuff to say...so the effect was... anyways here i am now...little interest in clarifying all the mistatements i read in the archieves really. concerns me some that folks repeat rumours as fact and create obvious confusion...in the name of sharing clarity to help current cult members out of cult. oh well. also have been reluctant to join because of the alais thing. i dont get that at all....especially in lite of the goal but then i am not into computers much at all, so maybe its a computer thing. hard to imagine there should be any fear about using our own names really and seems it would add credibility. probably this comment has been made by others often and the conversation already had...just to say that it surely added to my hesitation. regards michael....ps gary is quite well, changing jobs and stressed out a bit now due to leaving one and creating another..but in a good place...conscious and caring person that i respect greatly.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:11:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: michael donner Subject: More seriously Message:

Mike, You're right that anonymity is a bit funny, not to mention a somewhat discomforting symbolic concession to the House of Rawat. It comes up as an issue from time to time, often when new posters, like yourself, comment on it. I don't know. Many have advanced various reasons for being anonymous. There's the divorced ex who doesn't want to raise his ....er, premie ex's ire. There's the wavering ex who isn't sure just how much he wants to say about the Perfect Hamster (this breed's rare but it wasn't a couple of years ago). There's the recent ex who doesn't want to alienate ever last friend he's got en masse. And then there are the many, it seems, who simply think it's bad form to do anything on the net under their real name. I don't like any of those excuses but then that's just me. I do know that everyone I can think of who's posted under their own name, either initially or after posting under an alias for some time, has never regretted 'coming out' as it were. Frankly, I think that anyone who's ever feared cult reprisal has to reconsider that concern the more others, high-profile or not, post out in the open like you and Mike. Hey, can you imagine the ludicrousness of either of you posting behind a mask? What kind of credibility could you ever have like that? Well, that's the difference. You guys have big time eye-witness stuff; most of us don't. Anyway, it all works somehow. As for some of the criticisms levied at former PAMs here, well, yes, I and many are guilty of same. But, like I told you, I've always thought there was like a moral obligation of sorts for people in the know to share that knowledge with others who are obviously still trapped in the information-deprived world fo this cult. Dettmers has proven that point in spades. For all the argument, rhetoric, passionate pleading and objectively overwhelming circumstantial case we otherwise have, all of it pales in comparison to one story like Mike's account of Maharaji's driving 'mishap' in India. I'm sure you understand. So that was the problem. Now there've been many opinions on this. Some thought it wrong to bug exPAMs, some didn't. But, well, that was the thinking anyway. Finally, you mention rumours and by rumours I take it you mean false ones. Hey, Mike, we're just trying to put together the true picture. If we get some junk data here or there, what can we do? I guess it's just one more reason that people like you make a difference.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:14:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Aliases? No way! Who? Who's using an alias?? Message:

Mike, What you have to understand is that there are legions and legions of ex premies so embarrassed by their cult involvement that they've moved all over the globe, taken on new identities and even gone under the knife a bit. Way, for example, changed his name twent years ago. He's a city planner in Tulsa and proud of it. Somewhere in the archives you'll find a post of his where he explains that, while it was a little tough at first on his kids, No and Goa, his family got used to it all. As far as I can tell, 'Nigel' is the only one who won't come clean about who he is. Apparently he's a student somewhere and, as he recently disclosed to me in private email, he's afraid of using his real name because there's some other student in Scotland (or wherever he is) trying to slap a sexual harrassment lawsuit on him or something. I promised 'Nigel' that this wouldn't go any further so I'll trust that you and anyone else reading this respects 'Nigel's' confidence appropriately.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:43:10 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm still pissed at my parents for naming me ... Message:

... Postie. I mean, what a weird name. Like some bizarre breakfast cereal or mail carrier or fence installer. At least they didn't name me SatGanga!

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:08:28 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Postie Subject: I'm still pissed at my parents for naming me ... Message:

Thelma when it was obvious I had balls.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:16:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Thelma Subject: There's a book with your name on it, Thelma Message:

Maybe you've read it -- The Wasp Factory.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:19:24 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Jim Subject: There's a book with your name on it, Thelma Message:

So keep me hanging in suspense won't you. What's it all about?

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:58:12 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, I hope that wasn't a back-handed compliment Message:

with a sting in it's tale. ''The Wasp Factory'' is a novel about ''Frank Cauldhame, (is) a weird teenager who lives on a tiny island connected to mainland Scotland by a bridge. He maintains grisly Sacrifice Poles to serve as his early warning system and deterrent against anyone who might invade his territory.'' Well, nothing will insult me after being called a hydra-headed monster. Thelma, the self-made one woman early warning system.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:53:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Thelma Subject: The Wasp Factory Message:

Here's one review from Amazon. This is one weird book that you must read to see the connection. It's short and entertaining. Try it. It's like a mango. 'I had been making the rounds of the Sacrifice Poles the day we heard my brother had escaped. I already knew something was going to happen; the Factory told me.' Those lines begin one of the most infamous of contemporary Scottish novels. The narrator, Frank Cauldhame, is a weird teenager who lives on a tiny island connected to mainland Scotland by a bridge. He maintains grisly Sacrifice Poles to serve as his early warning system and deterrent against anyone who might invade his territory. Few novelists have ever burst onto the literary scene with as much controversy as Iain Banks in 1984. The Wasp Factory was reviled by many reviewers on account of its violence and sadism, but applauded by others as a new and Scottish voice--that is, a departure from the English literary tradition. The controversy is a bit puzzling in retrospect, because there is little to object to in this novel, if you're familiar with genre horror. The Wasp Factory is distinguished by an authentically felt and deftly written first-person style, delicious dark humor, a sense of the surreal, and a serious examination of the psyche of a childhood psychopath. Most readers will find that they sympathize with and even like Frank, despite his three murders (each of which is hilarious in an Edward Gorey fashion). It's a classic of contemporary horror. --Fiona Webster

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 09:35:11 (GMT) From: Thelma the Fat Fag Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, call me thick but I still don't get it Message:

I told you you were a zen master. You have thrown more than one koan at me before. No, I'm slow on the uptake sometimes. What's the significance? Did you read it? Sounds dumb but then I haven't read fiction in 15 years.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:01:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Wasp Factory - oops, I got called away Message:

for a surprise pre-dinner rush and when you didn't answer I looked it up. I would love to know what made you read it and if you read his other novels. I lived in Scotland long enough to know that I had to watch every word that I said. Every Glaswegian was a walking sarcastic sacrifice pole.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:39:48 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: The scary part Message:

One time, not too long ago, I actually answered the phone at work as 'Way.'

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:16:06 (GMT) From: Mark A Email: None To: Way Subject: No Way ! Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 05:17:14 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Mark A Subject: actually he has a lot of kids besides no and goa.. Message:

theres the independent one, MY way, and No, the willfull one, has an officious twin named Yes. the racecar driver is named Speed Way, the long distance trucker named Hi, the bicyclist is named By, and his son that ran away to go hitchiking around california is called Free. he has a brother, a stock broker on the east coast known as Thru, and a siser in Denver who's a city planner known as Breeze. Breeze has a daughter in Miami named Cause who's a political activist at college there. She stays on miami beach and commutes. Cause is sharing a place with her cousin, a zen type who prefers to sign himself Tao.Cause also has a younger brother, who's a gothic teen named Sub, who's into the underground scene, and an older half brother who's a ski bum named Nor. He lives in Europe. then theres the side of the family everyone shudders to mention. Theres the one in prison who killed a man while at sea, Gang..and that one hopelessly on life support from that car accident head-on, while trying to get on the toll road, poor Wrong... yep, Way's got quite a clan of kith and kin, there. Oh--and steer clear of Reverend The. You'll never get rid of him once, he gets your ear.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:53:34 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: michael donner Subject: While all that was going on in '83-'84 in Miami, Message:

I was living down there at the time. There was a popular story going around the premie community I remember well, that you and Maharaji were walking around one day and you were ogling some pretty women and Maharaji asked: 'Why are you looking at them? They are all looking for me anyway!' Was it one of those satsang tales to promote the single-focus on him or did it ever really happen? Sounds like it was the other way around, that he was checking out the ladies... Whenever you have a minute, Sandy

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:39:41 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Welcome Mike, yes the ''alias thing'' gets me too Message:

You said: ''...also have been reluctant to join because of the alias thing. I dont get that at all....especially in lite of the goal but then i am not into computers much at all, so maybe its a computer thing. hard to imagine there should be any fear about using our own names really and seems it would add credibility. probably this comment has been made by others often and the conversation already had...just to say that it surely added to my hesitation.'' Amen. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Anonymity does detract from the credibility of the forum and there is NO need for it other than some very special circumstances involving ongoing legal procedures and then these need to be explained. And yes, the tendency to jump at inflated rumors and exaggerated gossip is disturbing. Hopefully you will help us to stick to the facts and add a measure of decency and sensibilty. I know you will probably not recall who I am but I remember you and I personally look forward to your contributions.

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 17:17:10 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I think we need flexibility Message:

Pat, I'm not sure what you mean. What 'inflated rumors' and 'exaggerated gossip' are you talking about? In the years, off and on, I have been reading the forum, I'm surprised at how little of that there has been. Besides, the 'truth' as stated by people who were actually there, is a lot more incredible than the supposed 'rumors'. By the way, most of what was stated as 'rumors' have turned out to be true, again, based on statements from people who actually observed the incidents. And as I said above, the Maharaji cult is based on fear, and you can't expect that to go away immediately. As proof of this, notice that almost 100% of the PWKs who show up here are ANONYMOUS, and that's where we have all come from. And by the way, didn't you start out being anonymous?

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Date: Tues, Mar 13, 2001 at 18:39:33 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: we need flexibility, Joe - excited utterances Message:

Oh, I'm very flexible, Joe. But also very opinionated. I stae my opiion. You state yours and I am flexible enough to know when I'm wrong and also when we have to agree to disagree. I tolerate anonymice for the very reasons that you stated - fear. I had it too but it is not a good thing to nurture. As for the rumors and gossip. I think a better term would be the legal phrase, ''excited utterances'' The forum has a lot less ''excited utterances'' than it had as little as a year ago or even three months ago.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:41:56 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: dermot@mullan.net To: Pat Conlon Subject: Welcome Mike, yes the ''alias thing'' gets me too Message:

Well you have a point (maybe).....though Postie, Drek, Larkin et al seem to be doing a good job. Anyway Ive already laboured the point when I posted once or twice as Ex-Altarboy .....but here I am in the big bright world ....Dermot Mullan Ex-Premie .....white pages today....'journey' who knows when (when Ive got the time , energy and inspiration haha) Hi Everyone.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:05:24 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Dermot Subject: The majority of posters are not anonymice and Message:

most of the anonymice have emailed me to tell me who they are and I hope they extend that courtesy to other newcomers too. I just wish there were no perceived reasons for anonymity but I respect their decisions and most have giving me valid reasons.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:28:20 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: sandy Subject: story circulating Message:

hi sandy...i have no memory of that story with m nor remember hearing the satsang story about it...doesn/t quite sound like something that would have been shared between m and i....i was always careful not to oggle around him (smile). michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:26:41 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: the reasons are endless Message:

I wonder about some of them. There's a lot of posturing and I find it highly annoying. The one reason I respect the most is concern for safety for ones self and family but hey I'm a risk taker, why I posted my recent picture just now, below, in the larkin roll-call thread. But make no mistake, although there is a resemblence I am NOT related to the Rawats.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:31:34 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: Synchronicity, Selene Message:

I just told Charles that I will post my pic too. Let me go and have a look at you.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 00:28:13 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: oops regarding that picture etc. Message:

I hope you know my irreverence was not at your expense but somehow I do know that you ,if not all, can 'get' my jokes. I really have posted recent pics here and on AG and then gotten lectures about being more careful blah blah. so confused, so little time

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:10:41 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: regarding that picture - I thought you looked thin Message:

Hey, risk-taker, wait till you see mine.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 05:54:31 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: looking thin - it's the good haircut :) Message:

I'm glad you understood the joke. Oh wait maybe you are talking about the real pic? Thanks Pat.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 06:14:58 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: I really posted mine under Roll Call Message:

What I don't understand is why you are so hairless. Did you rip it out by the roots or were you born that way? You're such a risk-taking Aquarius.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 06:27:10 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: ok I know what you are up to Message:

I'll pull up a pic and post later. maybe. But you will have to go to THAT forum to see it. As for the hair, I have a very good esthetologist, she tortures me on a routine basis with a painful needle.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 06:29:58 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: I don't know what you are up to - THAT forum? Message:

You mean AG?

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 06:34:01 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: yeah that forum. I need to crop the pic I have Message:

The only digitized one i have is when I put my leg up on my desk and someone found it sexy so I have to Photoshop amputate the leg so I can save my pristine reputation. I'll get around to it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 06:41:09 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Selene Subject: Oh go on show a bit of leg! Message:

Well I'll just have to be patient.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:53:01 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Everyone Subject: my letter to m Message:

This is a letter that i wrote to m in 1987. I copied it to about 50 others at the time, ex instructors, then current instructors, mainly my cirlce of 'friends and those i wanted to influence at the time. so...fyi Dec. 19, 1987 Dear Maharaji, This is a hard letter to write. We have 'shared' so much over the many years together. I have been faithful to you and 'your'work through many ups and downs. I imagine that you will take what is written here as a betrayal, as I have seen you react that way so many times in the past with others. In taking this that way however, you will miss what i am saying and what is in my heart. I do not write as a devotee. There was a time when that is all that I wanted and tried to be. I see now that devotion to another human being is destructive to me and to you. i write instead as a simple human to another with a deep and growing experience of life due in part to the practice of meditation and the opportunities that the work of spreading knowledge has provided me. That part of me that was a devotee needed a guru and you were it. I see now that that codependent relationship is unhealthy and it is time to move from that to some more mature relationship, if that is possible. As things have changed and evolved over these past 15 years, I've seen you try to deal with some of the CONTRADICTIONS as they became more obvious. Yet, these contradictions (go inside and know yourself/trust only in me, etc) continue and you...who can do something about it choose not to. Hence, I am no longer able to continue in 'service to you'. You speak of feeling valuable and capable yet the set up of serving you, not doing this work TOGETHER makes that impossible...implicitly impossible. You want me (us) to do it 'for you', at 'your command'. I guess you mean then 'valuable and capable' within the context of knowing my place, staying in my place at your feet, not at your side. You view Knowledge as if it were yours. Ownership of a technology so to speak. You assume the sole responsibility of spreading Knowledge as if you owned it. You have often spoke to us about 'your work', 'your mission'; never us, ours etc. Mutual respect has been lacking from the beginning. I use to accept that as my calling (good fortune even) to be a devotee. This type of relationship make feeling of 'valuable and capable' impossible. For awhile it seemed that you were moving away from these attitudes but I see that, fundamentally, you are not. This is a very heavy load for you to carry. You say that you do not want us to put you on a pedestal but you yourself will not come down from it. I have at times seen your dedication to spreading Knowledge but you seem dependent upon some role that was given to you when you were very young...and inappropriately given no doubt. This role, the roles we have both played..the matching book ends of devotee/guru is not healthy for you and the world does not need another personality cult, no matter how benevolent. These must seem like strong words, especially when filtered through the old view of devotee/master. I have wanted many many times to have an honest and open conversation but fear has always stopped me. That has been part my own lack of courage, but you have created a system of fear that has kept us all in box for far too long. I am still feeling fear as i write this, but mostly fear that you will simply blow this off and discount the love that we once shared. Recently, when we shock hands at your birthday party, it was quite significant for me. I came around a corner and there you were. I had not seen you for some time, and when our eyes met I felt joy and I know you did too. spontaneously, I offered you my hand (married and living in Oregon, that is what we do first with old dear friends...perhaps before an embrace). You took it but it was the 'cold fish' hand shake and you immediately porceeded to joke about it...'gotta wash my hand now...what if everyone wanted to shake my hand', etc. I was hurt and disappointed because my simple spontaneous jesture could not be accepted and reciprocated (I was not accepted). Upon reflection, I should not have been surprised. Such a reaction I have seen countless times and it flows from who you see yourself as and how you perceive others in relationship to that view. I stongly believe that perceptions such as that must change if you ever hope to be successful in actually spreading Knowledge to more then a few...really to only those 'devotees' looking for a place for their devotion. Even now, I hope that perhaps one day you might want to know why so many of us (caring, intelligent, dynamic people) have chosen recently to leave. Could be fun even, a working retreat...brainstorming together to identify the blocks that exist within ourselves that are keeping us from doing this important work TOGETHER. More personally, I hope you can find a way to get healthy and to respect your bodily temple. In at least memory of love, Michael Donner

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 03:06:23 (GMT) From: bill burke Email: None To: michael donner Subject: And to think I wanted to club you with a baragon. Message:

When Jim talked about how you and whomever else you live with were not interested helping us that needed help leaving the cult........ Now I see that you were one of the very few that made an effort to share your PAM(person around m) realizations with 50 others. Micheal Dettmers has done many people a world of good by taking the time to share his views. For many lifers, who only get the distant programming from m, it is almost impossible for them to make the break without some insider info which shows a different side of m. If you would elaborate on some of m's behaviours that you saw for the benefit of many that lurk here and others that will read your comments in the future. As a long term insider you have a 'compassion' opportunity here. His cult is in many countries and they have little defense against his claims to be the master of life and god incarnate. Your honesty and details will be a great assist to many and will help others not have such a long struggle with leaving like I had. Since you are someone with direct exposure to him, your comments will be made readily available on this website for those trying to get free. Please see your 'compassion' opportunity.

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 01:14:12 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: michael donner Subject: my letter to m, Thank you Michael Message:

Dear Michael, Thank you for posting and for coming forth as a significant PAM. It is this kind of insider view point that clearly edifies the position that so many of us have now taken who regularly post on this site. It has been many years since you and I first met and I assisted you with your car problems enroute to satsang that night in Portland 28 years ago, and it has been a wild, confusing ride for me for a long, long time. We arrived at the same place at one point decades ago and it now appears as if we have come full circle. I just got here myself and broke free about a month ago and I am so glad to see guys like you and Dettmers courageously offering your valuable experiences and insights which empower so many of us in our commitment to move on and reclaim our own lives back from the cult that isn't a cult. It is always a difficult time in the first stages of letting go, doubts, fears, feelings of betrayal and abandonment however small still pang on occasion waiting to rear up. Hearing from you directly about what you went through as close as you were to maharaji, makes it obvious that I have made the right decision. There is a lot of strength and truth to be derived from your story. Thank you for posting, I hope that you continue to do so and that we hear more from you. Best Regards, your brother in recovery Brian Smith

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 02:31:53 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Thank you Michael, Ditto. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 23:15:15 (GMT) From: Been There Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Shaking hands Message:

Michael, you may not know this: I believe it was sometime after your exit that M. was in Taiwan and after a general program shook the hands of every premie who wanted to shake hands with him. It was videotaped and has been shown many times (in slow motion). It happened spontaneously and went on and on. (It wasn't a darshan line -- he stood at the edge of the stage and reached down and took people's hands as they reached up. I don't know if anything like that has happened since, except maybe in Africa.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:34:10 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com To: michael donner Subject: To: Michael Donner Message:

Dear Michael, Many thanks for your courage to post here. Your letter to Maharaji was very sincere. Unfortunately, he isn't. I don't think we've ever met, but you were one person who I thought of as sincere and I always loved your sense of humor. I send you my best wishes and hope you are well. I hope you continue to share your experiences--you've got to know people here will be asking you questions. You were, after all, a ''famous premie.'' :-))) Best to you, Cynthia Gracie

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:56:04 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: michael donner Subject: thank you Michael Donner Message:

I am very heartened that you have made the choice to post here. Your voice will add much to the picture I hope. I think by telling the truth, in public, about the cult we honor the love, idealism, and sincerity we all had while we were there. Telling the truth is very healing, for those who tell it as well as those who learn it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:51:47 (GMT) From: Francesca Reitano Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: michael donner Subject: Hits the nail on the head Message:

Michael, Thanks for posting this. I am going to print it up and give it to my hubby, who received K from you. He left the cult before I did because he did not have a devotee relationship with M. It was a harder and more gradual process for me. Your words express some of the things I've felt -- the codependent and unhealthy relationship of master/guru and devotee. Strong aversion to being involved in such a relationship has welled up in me again, and is what started me on the process of backing out of my deep involvement in Tibetan Buddhism, a process that has been ongoing over the past two years. I thought I could gloss over the guru part of that religion, but it is not possible unless I maintain the proper distance. What I have learned in the past 9 years is way more valuable than anything I learned with K, but like my experience with K, I will assimilate it into my own relationship with the universe. In other words, take back the power. I cannot learn everything I need to know on my own, but I can certainly study with many teachers, and make sure that they treat their students as fellow human beings, and that they are not on pedestals or thrones. This forum has been a valuable part of the process of deprogramming myself. By not totally facing what I had done with M, and rejecting the parts of it that were, frankly sick, and owning what I'd learned, I was walking away from the value of experience. It's good to have your voice on Forum V.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:58:45 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Francesca Reitano Subject: Michael, I am not anonymous and here's my email Message:

Charles S is my partner of 19 years and Francesca is my friend of 20 years. None of us are anonymice.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:47:25 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Thanks Michael for posting that letter Message:

In the past ten years I have written many like it until I eventually realized that Rev Rawat really did not understand either because he is stupid or because he is basically immoral and criminally egotistical.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:29:16 (GMT) From: Charles S. Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Thank you for sharing that! Welcome to forum V nt Message:

l

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:20:10 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: michael donner Subject: my letter to m Message:

Thank you Michael. I've been reading for a while, I have recently left the 'cult' and I am still feeling all the pain of exiting. Luckyly I have a wonderful therapist. I can't believe how programmed I've been. I met you, I think in Miami when Jeanny was your secretary. It is a relief to read some of the posts in this forum because I don't feel so alone and it reminds me I am not insane. I appreciate the honesty. It is not an easy road and it is the road to recovery.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 21:19:57 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Mercedes Subject: Welcome Mercedes Message:

I just noticed you are a new poster and wanted to welcome you. Please post as much as you like. I've started posting here a few months back after years of lurking. Postie

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:14:57 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: michael donner Subject: my letter to m Message:

Thanks for sharing. This was a very good letter. It reminds me of my exit letter, in its anxiety about him not honoring my sincerity and love in what I was trying to say to him. What I was trying to say would, I felt, have really, really helped him and his work. And what you said in this letter could have been even more incredibly helpful to him as you were his friend. Sorry he couldn't listen.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:26:43 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Disculta Subject: my letter to m Message:

hi not really sure how this posting stuff works, replies,timing etc. i really did not have any illusion that my letter might have some impact...more written for myself at the time...so thing about making a good faith effort. it was more important to me back then to send a copy to various people, freinds who had left around the time i did and some of the instructors who were still involved with whom i wanted to share my perspective. i certainly had no further illusions after i heard that m referred to my letter during an instructor conference in the following months in very belittling terms. nor was i surprised that he belittled it publicly with those particular folks as he needed to maintain control..and to trash me to them was significant as i was fairly well liked by most of the instructors at that time and not just another idiot...though that is how m protrayed me in reference to my letter. naturally i did not hear then nor ever since from m. i became just another disappointment for him, another betrayal

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 09:13:13 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Micheal...the FU video? Message:

you said'i certainly had no further illusions after i heard that m referred to my letter during an instructor conference in the following months in very belittling terms' Were you referring to that instructors' program(in Penang?) where he forced the instructor's to make the 'fuck you' video?

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:31:06 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: michael donner Subject: my letter to m Message:

I really thought he was going to read my letter and be somehow affected by it (it referred to my involvement in trying to prevent premie suicides, as I recounted somewhere below). I guess you knew him better and didn't expect so much.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:10:12 (GMT) From: bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: michael donner Subject: excellent!.... thank you michael (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 19:29:34 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: michael donner Subject: thanks michael Message:

Thank you for posting your letter michael. I only wish I could be so clear about how I feel right now. I too have not long left and all I can feel at the moment is anger towards m. But by reading this forum I can see I am not alone in by feelings. Thank you and a big thank you to everyone else on this forum who is helping me through my anger. Love kev.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:07:34 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: kev Subject: kev, it helped me to write some really angry stuff Message:

about the Bratguru and get it out of my system. I don't hate the man but it was a lot of fun and very liberating to cut him down to size and see him for what he is - just another greedy televangelist huckster and conman who believes his own scam.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:50:05 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I agree, Pat Conlon re: writing M Message:

After reading Mike Donner's letter to M it occurred to me that I'd never really left M, but basically walked away and 'got on with my life'. After writing my journal for myself, it brought up a lot of old emotions, thoughts and questions. Thus I began posting here some months back. I will take Donner's example to heart and write M a letter. Postie - anonymous and OK with that for now

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 20:55:59 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Postie Subject: Why write him a letter Message:

After thinking about it and discuss it with my therapist I realised that I don't have to write him any letter, I don't have to give him any more of my power and besides I doubt he reads them or cares. Before I used to write to him a lot, thanking, complainint etc. Now I don't have to and I don't want to. He is out of my life. No more screwing around with me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 21:07:48 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Mercedes Subject: I decided not to write him a letter of resignation Message:

because it might give him new ideas on spin-control and revisionism. Give him enough rope to hang himself is my new motto.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:21:42 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Everyone Subject: faqianand (sp?), detroit pie Message:

I have seen some of what has been posted on the site re this situation. I was asked by m (at bob mishler's suggestion) to fly to detroit and 'get faquianand out of the country'. bob arranged for me to see m before i left to 'do pranam' at which point m told me the above quote as well as expressed his displeasure with the mahatmas invloved. There were (as I remember) probably 4 mahatmas involved in the planning and discussion of revenge on pat h. after the pie incident. Rajaswar was one and the other names i do not remember. from the culture in india is was completely 'normal' to physically attack anyone who would dare touch the guru. revenge was a matter of honor among the mahatmas and those premies such as fletcher under their sway. hence, whereas m seemed very upset on one hand he was quite understanding on the other, knowing the culture he brought them from. Seems like there were two mahatmas that i drove from detroit to chicago to put them on a plane to india. chicago-london-india. (not canada as has been suggested elsewhere inaccurately). obviously, my head space at the time was to obey the directions i was given as a reasonable (at the time) road to follow resulting from the incident.

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Date: Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 22:04:16 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Fakiranand Message:

Hi Michael, Thanks for that information. I was in the Chicago ashram when Fakiranand arrived from Detroit after the pie incident. I was just a lowly premie and wasn't in on the information, but I recall Fakiranand pacing in a room and wanting to speak to Maharaji, who I guess refused to come to the phone, or just wouldn't talk to him, and Fakiranand looked and acted completely freaked out. I recall that Fakiranand arrived as Mahatma Fakiranand and was hustled to the airport as 'Mr. Fakir,' or at least that was what I was told. It was a very weird event to watch. I remember there were rumors of some kind of an armed gang coming from Detroit and storming the ashram, or other such stories. Instead of the mild-mannered prankster that Pat Halley was, he was portrayed as some kind of a gang leader, part of some violent Detroit underground group. I know what you are saying about the cultural of attacking somebody who attacks the Guru. But I don't think it was just a cultural thing coming from India. There were lots of American premies who felt justice had been done when Pat Haley was attacked. They might not have done it themselves, although I think there are some who might have, but there certainly was a kind of understanding of what was done, believing as we did, at least most of us did, that Maharaji was the incarnation of God on Earth and being hit with a pie was outrageous. By the way, if you have seen the Lord of the Universe Video (available through Amazon), that was done in 1974, Pat Halley is interviewed, and they actually show Maharaji getting hit with a pie, which really is funny. Another interview is of Fats Goldstein, who, while doing security at Millennium, said that if he had been there, he would have slit Pat's throat 'on the spot' when asked about this, on camera. Maybe Fats wouldn't have done that, but the sentiment was certainly there. Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 22:15:00 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: michael donner Subject: 'somethings going on inside LA'... Message:

Michael- After reading your posts, I was reminded of the old Jiva song, 'Somethings going on inside LA'. At least I think that was the name of the song. Seriously, I have this feeling that something very profound is starting to happen this year with this whole issue of M and his past. I think that something just has to happen, and will. Too much bad stuff, and sometimes good stuff, went down in this whole thing for too long, and affected too many people in powerful ways, for some sort of justice,retribution,reconciliation, whatever you want to call it, to not happen. In simpler terms, what goes around, comes around. Or, what you sow, you shall reap. Whatever.... Another quote: The time is coming, very soon, for the whole world to know who guru maharaj ji is.... I think that time is coming soon, and will prove to be a blessing for all, although it will be in a far different context than M or any of us ever realized. PAMS who post, like you and Michael Dettmers, are giving invaluable insight,performing a service, and are providing a real opportunity for people to see into what was really going on all those years behind the devotion...it helps the sorting out/healing/growing up process tremendously. Most of us 'rank and file' premies never had a clue about any of this stuff. There sometimes is incredible anger about all of this, as we realize just how much we gave and believed, and how much we were used and conned. It is empowering to go through this, and you guys are helping the process. You may find. like many of us do, that by posting and communicating, we are coming to some closure on personal issues and a time in our life that we need to understand. Many people thought they were over with it, but it seems as if this maybe a time to finally understand it and get over it. Unfortunately M seems to be too insecure to participate in this dialogue. It's too bad, because it could only help all of us, especially him. And when it would be all over, we could go out and maybe have a few beers.... Unfortunately, it seems like you already suggested that a long time ago, and M wasn't interested. (In the dialogue, that is: seems like he's always been interested in the beers) Thanks a lot, and keep posting, if you feel inclined to do so. La-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:42:01 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Hey Michael Message:

Very cool to hear from you. I remember you well. I'm a longtime ex-premie. Recently, a lot of people have been coming out onto this site after being in the cult for up to 30 YEARS! Can you imagine? It has been amazing to hear their stories, and difficult to imagine that the whole thing just went on after we all left. And there are still a lot of people stuck in a kind of cultic vortex. After so many years, it is probably almost like dying to leave. I'm saying this because I think it is really valuable for people who were around Maharaji to speak out about what they saw and knew. It doesn't have to be all negative. In fact, the reason that Dettmers' posts are so convincing is that they aren't. But there really are still people who are wondering if 'he' is the Lord. And they have been enormously helped by this Forum and particularly Dettmers' posts. So I'm inviting you to, at your own pace and convenience, enter the conversation here. I think part of the reason I still come to this Forum, after mostly forgetting about MJ for more than a decade, (been out since 1984) is that I talked a lot of people into a lot of crap, when I was a programmed premzoid myself. It feels good to be part of a recovery movement. And also, I have found, as I think Dettmers has after an initial feeling that he was complete with the whole thing, that there is more clearing for me that frees up more energy for my life now. If you feel like putting your email address up, I will write to you and see if you remember me. I'm sure you do. Love Disculta

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:40:11 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Thank you for your accurate recall, but Message:

what do you feel now in retrospect? As far as I'm concerned, I'm quite ashamed and embarrassed about lots of (what I now call) wrongdoings I did in the name of 'service', or implementing m's directions ... I feel very sad, honestly, about all these - I can't find a name - that happened in the group I was an active part of.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 18:12:36 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thank you for your accurate recall, but Message:

what do i feel now about that stuff then??? a big question really that goes to the heart of what i am now and how i tend to see life as it unfolds for me....as i unfold my life. i have no regrets generally speaking. that was then and now is now. i joined up with m because i was looking for and needing at that time in my life a guru....a guru to match the devotee that i was then. Two sides of the same coin. without one there is no other. just as m needs devotees, devotees need a guru. and until i saw that i had evolved to a place where i did not need a guru, then i could leave the cult. I started to leave many times but did not have the strength of character to take back my own power, the power that i had been giving to m. long story here that goes back to being raised as oldest of 6, catholic...social do-gooder, family model was that the highest thing in life was to be a humble servant of the lord and help lord uplift the world. so, the whole m thing fit me like a glove...until things became clearer to me that 1. he was not saving the world and therefore i was not helping someone do that adn 2. i was bored of being a servant/puppet giving my power away, discounting my friendships, trashing myself that i was no good and that everything we created was him and not really those of us who worked our butts off, etc. so, mainly, i look back at that period with self reflection, knowing that there was something in me that needed what i drew to myself. the story is the same each day. I get in my life what i create for myself out of who i see myself as now. as i become more whole and integrated, claim my power, stop blaming those around me and know the process of projection better...i am becoming able to create a life fuller of love and real connection with the people around me. i have felt embarrasment in the past, but even that, upon reflection is such a fear based feeling (for me, that i how i say it), fear of accepting my past actions and facing them as honestly as possibble...no other way to learn from my past in my opinion. and as i try to love myself, who i am and who i was...i learn compassion that helps me with all aspects of my life and relationships. maybe more later....i did post in a few places this morning as well as a letter that i wrote to m in 1987. regards

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Date: Sat, Mar 10, 2001 at 08:26:02 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Thanks a lot, I needed that Message:

as well as all others' exes stories to comfort me in the feeling I did the right thing leaving the whole scene. There's no way back of course. I guess I've not yet recovered from all this. Thanks again, your sharing is precious.

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 17:38:16 (GMT) From: Postie Email: post@rmi.net To: michael donner Subject: Welcome Michael Message:

Thanks for visiting and I hope you'll make a regular appearance. Your unique position in M's organization make your comments valued here and I'm pleased you are willing to tell the truth about what you experienced.. I noticed in your post below about Blue Aquarius you express concern about the credibility of comments by anonomous posters (such as myself). Your concern is valid and accurate in some cases - sketchy information or imagination being presented as fact, etc. BUT, many more credible posters are coming forward now to put flesh on the bones of what went on back then and help us understand it better. I assure you all of my posts are as accurate as I can recall or otherwise indicated as speculation or humorous. Email me and I'll be glad to tell you who I am. I am an IHQ veteran. Postie

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Date: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 22:06:24 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: all Subject: Fakiranand = Fakir(beggar) + Anand(bliss) Message:

That's the way I remember the meaning of Fakiranand - Beggar of Bliss.

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