Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 13:19:08 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Jim raised an interesting point down below, and it's something I have noticed over the past year as well. Occasionally, premies post on the forum, engage in various levels of debate and discussion with ex-premies, and then, invariably, split. There are a couple of notable exceptions of people who have MOVED from the 'premie' to the 'ex-premie,' or at least 'wavering-premie,' category who stick around for moral support, but the seeming die-hard devotees seem to go away and never come back to posting. Mili is the only exception I can think of, but I think Mili is really a unique premie, IMHO. He is so removed from the premie world, that he is hardly even a premie, IMHO.

So, why do you think that is? I tend to agree with Jim that in every premie is a suppressed, possibly very weak, desire to know the truth, and the premie on some level knows there is something very fishy, unsatisfying, and downright contradictory about BM and his cult. That part of them also knows that they really want to be free from it. They are scared by and attracted to that part of themselves at the same time. I can recall this feeling in myself as a premie. [I remember when Sophia Collier's book came out called 'Soul Rush' in about 1977. I got a copy of the book and took it somewhere, not around premies, and read it. It was like reading pornography. I was attracted, but felt guilty about reading it. If I had been a 'true devotee' I wouldn't have. I think this forum is much like that.]

This forum, I think, is pretty irresistible to a lot of premies for that reason. I think many premies read this forum on a regular basis but NEVER post. They can do this and retain the facade that they are still, at least tacitly, premies, because they have not ever allowed themselves to verbalize the doubts they feel. They also fear that BM or other premies will find out they DID post, and that is scary to them, since BM's cult is heavily built on fear. Hence, even the premies who DO post, by and large, are paranoid about not revealing who they are.

But some premies feel compelled to say something. They feel compelled to put ex-premies down, because it's all becomming too confronting and they need a rationale to explain why ex-premies could be saying things form personal experience that actually make logical sense.

Has any other ex-premie had the experience of being violently attacked (verbally at least) by a premie after expressing your true feelings about M? I sure have. And I think that's what the premies who post are doing. They are trying to defend their programmed trip, but the fact that they post is kind of a last-ditch attempt to hold the trip together. At least that's what I think. And when they see, in black and white, how little sense their defense makes, and how it's pulled apart by people who know all about BM and his trip from personal experience, they have to split. It becomes just too confronting.

Anyone have any views on this?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 15:57:41 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear JW,
I tend to agree with Jim that in every premie is a suppressed, possibly very weak, desire to know the truth, and the premie on some level knows there is something very fishy, unsatisfying, and downright contradictory about BM and his cult. That part of them also knows that they really want to be free from it. They are scared by and attracted to that part of themselves at the same time.

That has always been my impression of the premies that post as well as those that lurk only.

. They are trying to defend their programmed trip, but the fact that they post is kind of a last-ditch attempt to hold the trip together. At least that's what I think. And when they see, in black and white, how little sense their defense makes, and how it's pulled apart by people who know all about BM and his trip from personal experience, they have to split. It becomes just too confronting.

And yes I agree that this is probably why they split. What is the sense in staying unless they are glutens for punishment. Some stay long enough to suprize me and I wonder if any of them are here for directed or percieved 'service' so they put themselves in the firing line longer than is healthy. Otherwise I really am confused as to why they are here in the first place if their Master told them not to be on the Net. They listen or not depending on what, I don't understand that.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 04, 1998 at 17:33:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Never leave any room .....
Message:
In premie language, I think you would finally
pull that 'don't leave any room for doubt in your mind'
as the excuse for leaving.
I totally agree with your analysis.
This Forum is pure mind ..... in other words.
How could you 'follow your heart' and confront such challenging
concepts ?

When your mind is in such a mess, to say it in real language,
what can you expect ?

At least you can think that that strange mindset is going to brake sooner or later, like it did for more than 90% of the people who one day received k.

I feel it's a very sad story.

And the BM is responsible for it.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 00:14:14 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Some of the premies probably aren't around right now because they are checking out the world tour. I suspect that when that is over, more will be posting with a vengence, or not at all, due to 'orders' not to do so. Either way, I know they will be reading. Naughty is nice, after all.

I get the feeling that many of the premies who do post here have this sort of half-committed view of the BM trip. They don't really surrender. It's like their favorite TV show, or their favorite sport. It's a convenient kind of little hobby for them. Nice and hidden away for when they want/need it. Like a stash of drugs or something. It has been given a little respectability now (not too much though, sorry) with the suit and all that. It fits in nicely with the 'if it works for me, I do it' mentality. I could be wrong, but that is the impression that I have gotten from a few of the revisionist posters here.

They don't see it as a cult because that isn't how it fits into their lifestyle. I know that there are others (especially newcomers) who probably take it much more seriously. Maybe that is another reason they don't stick around. It isn't working for them at the moment.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 01:17:27 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
JW, I don't have a really good explaination, except
* I really don't live on the web all that much, and
* sometimes I check in and don't find anything of interest or that I want to comment on.
perhaps others are similar, or simply find the site interesting or useful for only a short period of time.

best wishes, david f.
(p.s. hi again robyn.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 04:36:08 (EST)
From: Mirabai
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
david f said 'JW, I don't have a really good explaination, except
* I really don't live on the web all that much, and
* sometimes I check in and don't find anything of interest or that I want to comment on.
perhaps others are similar, or simply find the site interesting or useful for only a short period of time'

I can relate to the essence of these words. I've enjoyed being challenged by this forum and it's been amazing to be introduced to so many people that were once involved with maharaji. I'd like to think that I am willing to look at what the truth is, no matter how I may or may not like it.

best regards Mirabai
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:45:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: david f.
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear David F.,
I don't know that you will see this but I don't think you think of yourself as a premie, do you? I believe you are just saying why anyone might not stay around but there is a difference here, I think, premies are not supposed to be here, orders from the Master and they, from what little I've read of their posts can't seem to just get into a conversation, Keith came close in that he kept trying but then he was working on coming to terms with things that bothered him about the whole thing with M which is a big no, no for premies that want to stay 'in the fold'.
Robyn
Have a wonderful weekend, David.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 07:46:03 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: JW
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Premies don't stay around because your heart are closed to the beauty and radience of Maharaji. Why would we want to polute ourselves with your minds. You are all in your minds and have not opened your hearts to the Lord of Love. No amount of debate is going to show you what we premies know - that Maharaji is the imparter of true knowledge and nobody can understand this unless they come with an open heart.

Amigo has made a valient effort to impress upon you about the need for the master but no, you think you know best. You obviously didn't surrender like I did. My doctors tell me that soon I'll be able to have my lobotomy and then I'll be free of my mind forever! How many here are willing to take such a step of surrender.

Our Lord, Maharaji once said that every time you think, you kick Maharaji in the teeth. Need I say more.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 08:25:31 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: I'm Thinking...
Message:
I knew I had a function.

THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK
THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK THINK etc...
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 10:41:09 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear John,
Yadda, yadda, yadda, I don't wish you ill but I don't even have to read your post to know what you have to say, it has been said so many times before and I leave it to the others to bang it about with you. Sorry you haven't been able to go to any of these recent events, don't you think festivals was a much better/nicer/more human term?
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:14:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, are you serious?
Message:
Robyn,

Mayb'e I'M missing something, but can't you see that 'JHS' is just a joke?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:13:48 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: Robyn, are you serious?
Message:
Dear Jim,
No silly, I was kidding!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:12:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Now that's funny
Message:
My doctors tell me that soon I'll be able to have my lobotomy and then I'll be free of my mind forever! How many here are willing to take such a step of surrender.

Our Lord, Maharaji once said that every time you think, you kick Maharaji in the teeth. Need I say more.

John,

That's really good but, I have to ask you, did Maharaji really say that? Like honestly, did he? When? Where? (Like, this thing is so dumb to start with, I have to admit I think it's actually possible. I can picture it.)
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:51:27 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Off Topic...Raja and Claudia
Message:
Hey Jim,

have I got you real-time? Can you help me with some info. I keep hearing about Raja Ji and Claudia and Maharaji. I was around Raja Ji for some time and figured him for 100% loyal if naive but I never heard anything about this. So what happened.

Regards

Richard
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:04:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Off Topic...Raja and Claudia
Message:
Richard,

I've told my little story a few times here but, in a nutshell, I met Raja Ji for a drink the day after I'd heckled him at a program in L.A. in the mid 80s. I'd stood up for a guy who Raja Ji was patronizingly brushing off. Raja Ji was trying to raise money for a place for Maharaji and this premie was confused about the special devotional relationship he wanted but which was no longer in fashion on Maharaji's world. Raja Ji told him to basically give the money and not worry about it. I stood up from the baack and told him that that was wrong as we'd all be trained to believe tah he and his family were divine. We went back and forth a bit (I must say, I was 'winning'. Maybe someone reading this was there and remembers. It was a program in the mid to late 80s in a hotel by LAX. Raja Ji analogized his childhood and that of his brother's to the movie 'The Last Emperor').

Anyway, I went up to the front after, introduced myself and Raja Ji seemed impressed that I'd gotten a law degree after the ashram. The next day, on his way back to Malibu after gettinh his haircut in Beverly Hills, he stoped by my office and we retired to the Red Robin downstairs for a drink (me, scothch, he, Perrier).

After a bit of small talk (Raja Ji bitched about the small stipend Maharaji gave him as an instructor then) we discussed Maharaji and all the changes to date. At first, Raja Ji encouraged me to consult with a couple of intiators he knew in the Malibu area who were 'really good at working with people confused by all the changes'. I told him that was ridiculous, I just wanted some answers. I got imaptient and said that it was his brother (i.e. Maharaji) I should be talking with, not him. He just looked at me for a moment, kind of expressing some resignation (like a salesman admitting that he just can't beat the competition) and offered that he himself had tried to ask Maharaji some of these questions (like who he thinks he is, for one) but that Maharaji wouldn't anser him either. His point was that it would be hopeless trying.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:46:42 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: padded.cell@asylum.com
To: Jim
Subject: Now that's funny
Message:
Maharaji said that about kicking him in the teeth etc during an initiator's conference he was hosting. I was told this by Arthur Brigham (Param Premanand) who was at the conference.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 11:28:53 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
I hope Maharaji has a good dentist lined up.

John H-S, you don't need a lobotomy, seems like you've already had one.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:18:56 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Why DON'T Premies Stay Around?
Message:
Dear John Hammond-Smyth
Don't you think it takes a bit of an open heart and mind to put ourselves on the line as we do here, every day?

Sometimes we get angry and rude, but what kind of guts do you think it takes for someone to set up this Forum in the first place? Is this someone with a closed heart, saying come one come all, and let's talk about this experience which hurt many of us? What category do you put that in. Does M ever ask you how you feel? What your opinion is? What's happening today? No, he says go inside, go inside. go inside, go inside.
Just keep listening.
go inside, go in side. go........

and he asks you to support him and give him collectively $10,000 a day for his personal use (if this info is true). If he is inside as much as he tells others to do, why would he need all this money? Wouldnt a plain home with simple furnishings be adequate? Well, maybe his home is like that but with designer labels. You might say he needs to be rich so his followers will all respect him. And to their problems, he says go inside. The answers are all there. The problems will seem not so important when you look at your life in the context of eternity.

Well in my opinion we here look at our lives in the context of THIS VERY DAY I AM ALIVE and I am HERE

Please keep reading. You might have a change of heart.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:25:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: John HS is a joke - literally!
Message:
You know, when I first came to understand that John H.S. was a joke I was a little concerned that 'he' might be putting inocent ex's through their paces for nothing. But then, when he started revealing in no uncertain terms that he was just a running gag, I thought, 'that's fine. No one will unnecessarily shadow box with the guy'.

Listen, I can tell you with absoltuely no doubt whatsoever that JHS is a joke.

At this point I think it's a cute joke. He does it well. But really, Judec, let there be no mistake. This guy's not real. Please don't think otherwise.

(Or is this a case like what happened with Robyn where I tried to explain the same thing to her and she told me that SHE was only joking too?)

Just trying to help.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 19:42:38 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: John HS is a joke - literally!
Message:
Ok but here comes my excuse....

1. Ok I've just had a good laugh about it

2. Maybe someone's alter ego is trying to speak through them. JHS really sounds sincere sometimes.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 20:01:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Judex
Subject: John HS is a joke - literally!
Message:
John HS is the premie alter ego of a very nice person on the forum. He learned to talk that way by hanging around with premies who actually were LIKE John HS! That's why it seems so real - there are a bunch of John Hammond-Smythes running around in the real world (and I bet they all wear white suits, too!)
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