KK, another ex-PAM, speaks out
Maharaji's mantra was MONEY.
Best of the Forum Index

Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:42:09 (EST) __Gerry -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:59:36 (EST) __Brian -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:03:22 (EST) ____Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:16:44 (EST) ____VP -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:21:51 (EST) ____CD -:- EVs role -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:02:11 (EST) ______Brian -:- EVs role -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EST) ________CD -:- EVs role -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:42:03 (EST) __________Jim -:- CDCP Inquiry 8849993 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:43:29 (EST) ____________GAIL -:- CDCP Inquiry 8849993 -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:57:55 (EST) ______Richard -:- Memory Failure Alarm....... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:42:15 (EST) __g's mom -:- I like the letter ??? -:- Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:56:19 (EST) ____Selena -:- I DON'T like the letter -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:14:51 (EST) ______Judex -:- I DON'T like the letter -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:33:19 (EST) ____Jim -:- I like the letter ??? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:19:31 (EST) ______G's mom -:- all true but... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:35:44 (EST) ________G's mom -:- cover job...I am SLOW... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:22:21 (EST) ______Selena -:- I like the letter ??? -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:46:08 (EST) ________G's mom -:- I am not being clear... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:59:49 (EST) __________Selena -:- I am not being clear... -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST) ____________g's mom -:- thanks I misunderstood you -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:18:38 (EST) ______________Selena -:- thanks I misunderstood you -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:24:37 (EST) ____________Jim -:- Thanks, Selna -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:29:54 (EST) ______________Jim -:- I mean 'Selena' -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:57:17 (EST) ________________Selena -:- I mean 'Selena' -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 17:44:15 (EST) __________________Judex -:- to Selena -:- Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:38:58 (EST) ____________________Selena -:- to Selena -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:43:33 (EST) __KK -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:21:32 (EST) ____Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:52:03 (EST) ______JW -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:07:22 (EST) ________Jim -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:48:58 (EST) __________JW -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:05:20 (EST) __________Brian -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:41:38 (EST) __________900 Foot Jesus -:- Calling Jim Home -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:15:54 (EST) ____________Katie -:- Calling Jim Home -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:01:32 (EST) ______________.9 Inch J -:- Calling Jim Home -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:39:51 (EST) ________________Jim -:- Thank you, JESUS!! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:59:34 (EST) __________________Katie -:- Thank you, JESUS!! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:25:55 (EST) ____________________Shrinking J -:- Thank you, JESUS!! -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:28:58 (EST) ______KK -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:54:55 (EST) ________Richard -:- Thanks KK... -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:06:34 (EST) __________KK -:- Thanks KK... -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:35:16 (EST) ________bb -:- for KK -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:17:01 (EST) __________KK -:- for KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:58:44 (EST) ________JW -:- WOW -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:03:21 (EST) __________KK -:- WOW -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:00:52 (EST) ____________Jim -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:11:34 (EST) ______________JW -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:33:07 (EST) ________________Rick -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:38:38 (EST) __________________KK -:- Joe, that's pathetic -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:09:06 (EST) ________Jim -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:35:25 (EST) __________Selena -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:04:01 (EST) ____________Selena -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:41:47 (EST) __________Gail -:- Thank you KK -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:07:47 (EST) ____________KK -:- Thank you KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:44:18 (EST) ______________Richard -:- Spouses -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:24:53 (EST) ________________Rick -:- Spouses -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:14:32 (EST) ________________JW -:- Spouses -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:37:16 (EST) ________________KK -:- Spouses -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:28:40 (EST) ______________Richard -:- By the way.. -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:31:10 (EST) __________KK -:- EVERYONE PLEASE READ! -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST) ________JW -:- Padarthanand -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:11:05 (EST) __________KK -:- Padarthanand -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:57:03 (EST) ________g's mom -:- your letter -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:47:18 (EST) __________KK -:- your letter -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:08:27 (EST) ____________bb -:- KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:40:19 (EST) ______________KK -:- KK -:- Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:58:24 (EST) ________Jean-Michel -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:39:20 (EST) ________Brian -:- Post from KK -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:57:30 (EST) __________KK -:- Post from KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:25:01 (EST) ____________Rick -:- Post from KK -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:47:10 (EST) ________Joy -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:41:21 (EST) __________KK -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:13:48 (EST) ________Robyn -:- Letter FROM Linda Gross -:- Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:41:22 (EST)

Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:42:09 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: [Well, Linda was supposed to call me last Friday but I never heard from her. She told me that she's devoting Friday's to EV stuff and the rest of the week to her law practice. She also said she'd heard that I'd diss'd her a bit on the net and would be reading some posts that people had sent her before deciding if she'd want to continue discussion with me. I told her that I'd tried to be fair to her, blah blah blah. Here's her letter. By the way, I've been talking with her and faxing her at her law office in Santa Monica, not the address below] Elan Vital Inc. 5321 Derry Avenue Suite G. Agoura Hills CA. 91301 P.O. Box 6130 Malibu, California 90264 Phone: 818-889-1193 Fax: 818-889-6522 July 3, 1998 James I. Heller, Esq. 7 - 547 Herald Street Victoria, British Columbia Re: Your letter of June 17, 1998 Dear Jim: As I told you I would, I forwarded your 17 April 1998 letter regarding Maharaji. I do not know how things were in the early 70s, but Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji. Its purpose is to promote his teachings, but he is not an officer, director or employee of the organization. There are more than 50 similar organizations in other countries aroudn the world. Maharaji travels throughout most of the year responding to invitations to speak from various organizations. Elan Vital - US is but one organization requesting his attendance at its events. I do not have any control over Maharaji, with whom he chooses to speak or whose correspondence he elects to answer. At this point, unless you have a request to which I can respond, I am afraid I can do nothing further for you. Moreover, I have review recent postings on your Web page. Contrary to allegations there, I resigned from my position in 1980 and left. As we have discussed, you and I have very different views about our lives and how we have handled them. Perhaps, as good attorneys, it is time to 'agree to disagree.' Further discussion is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive to my goals. Very truly yours, Linda S. Gross Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 22:59:36 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim, Just as I suspected. A legal separation between BM and his shell corporations. As if these entities ''than 50 similar organizations in other countries around the world'' just sprang up somehow and now really really want BM to address their autonomous organizations. Sorta like a world-wide PTA or something, huh? ( I mean eh?) This is so lame. Yet it is nothing more (or less) than what I expected. Interesting she 'reviewed recent posting on ''your'' web page, though. As if they all aren't watching the whole thing intently. Far from being discouraging, I view this as a ''call to arms''. It makes me even more determined and inspired to do all I can personally to thwart the spread of BMism. Further discussion is unnecessary and potentially counterproductive to my goals. Looks like yer cut off, bud. Better be glad her name isn't Lorenna Bobbitt Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:03:22 (EST) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: I do not know how things were in the early 70s, but Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji. Its purpose is to promote his teachings, but he is not an officer, director or employee of the organization. There are more than 50 similar organizations in other countries aroudn the world. What teachings?? His entire focus is on himself. Elan Vital exists to promote HIM, not his teachings. Linda Gross apparently has no idea of how things are in the late 90's either. Maharaji travels throughout most of the year responding to invitations to speak from various organizations. Elan Vital - US is but one organization requesting his attendance at its events. Let me guess what organizations Maharaji is being asked to speak at - Elan Vital, US; Elan Vital, Canada; Elan Vital, Mexico; etc. The US chapter of Elan Vital may be but one organization requesting his attendance at its events, but it isn't like they ever invite anyone ELSE to attend their events. It isn't like the hold events that Maharaji DOESN'T attend. Linda must feel that down deep in your heart you're still a gullible premie, Jim. Otherwise, why waste the stationary?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:16:44 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Linda must feel that down deep in your heart you're still a gullible premie, Jim. Otherwise, why waste the stationary?? Well, don't they all think that? Don't they all think that we're not our minds but are REALLY little tiny people hidden in our hearts like Tom Thumb, bleating 'I love Maharaji! I love Maharaji! Help! Let me out! Get me to a video event!'? You know, it's funny, Linda tells me that she bought not only The Guru Papers and The Moral Animal on my advice but also even purchased 'The Lord of the Universe' video. She told me she thought it was hilarious the way all those people carried on back then. Go figure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:21:51 (EST) From: VP Email: None To: Brian Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: 'Otherwise, why waste the stationary??' Damage Control-Maharaji style :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 16:02:11 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Brian Subject: EVs role Message: >What teachings?? His entire focus is on himself. Elan Vital exists to promote HIM, not his teachings. That is how you and many others see it. Not the way I and many others see it. >Linda must feel that down deep in your heart you're still a gullible premie, Jim. Otherwise, why waste the stationary?? She used the stationary to state clearly that EV is set up as an independed organization to provide financial support for programs around the world, not for Ms personal finances as is often alleged on this web site. I will continue to support EV and hope that EV continues to be a successful organization. I enjoy and benefit from the programs, videos and music. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EST) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: CD Subject: EVs role Message: That is how you and many others see it. Not the way I and many others see it. Yet, you and the many others who see it that way have no other place to post your opinions about how you see it except here. What is it about ex-premies that just rings of openness, communication, and honesty? What is it about premies that causes them to cower before the selfish demands of Lord Whim and shut down websites? All except for you, of course. You are the Defiant Premie, who posts but refrains from actually discussing anything. EV is set up as an independed organization to provide financial support for programs around the world, not for Ms personal finances as is often alleged on this web site The funding for EV, like the funding for Maharaji's lavish lifestyle, comes solely from premies like you, CD. He's never worked a day in his life - having gone from son of the cult leader to cult leader himself in one step. Cash flows up from communities to EV, and from there it goes to underwrite the cost of getting the Maharaji airborne in his private jet, and to see that he has appropriately lavish accommodations when he lands among the devoted - you and many others. I will continue to support EV and hope that EV continues to be a successful organization. In that EV's success can only be measured in cash-flow, I'm sure your contribution will go as far as anyone's toward that goal. So tell me, oh Defiant One, what did you say when you were contacted and told that MJ doesn't want you to talk about him on the web? I enjoy and benefit from the programs, videos and music. You're a hard man to please, Chris. A box of crayons, a glass of milk, and you're in hog heaven. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 21:42:03 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Brian Subject: EVs role Message: >what did you say when you were contacted and told that MJ doesn't want you to talk about him on the web? I haven't been contacted. If would not be at your web site today if it wasn't for Jim's invite a long time ago. Does it bother you if people of different persuasions benefit from your good hard work? >You're a hard man to please, Chris. A box of crayons, a glass of milk, and you're in hog heaven. You would be suprised what a good crayon artist can come up with! Actually I prefer an electric guitar and a place to play it turned up a bit. I can get into the heady stuff with the best of you and I can also appreciate a good feeling and the simple things in life. My girlfriend is working at the hospital today, so I am working trying to get my consulting business going. Thats why I'm not out partying today. Yeah, I had to check out the site. Happy 4th Brian, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:43:29 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CDCP Inquiry 8849993 Message: I can get into the heady stuff with the best of you ... 'Heady stuff'? Is that what you call discussion? Why do you think he have to even say that? Do you think anyone here doubts your ability to talk like an adult, mentally-competent human being? Chris, that would be ridiculous. Why, all they'd have to do is read your reply to KR in the thread above: I went to programs in Miami (convention center) June 1996, Rome July 1996, Miami May 1998 and Wembley (London) June 1998. And Long Beach in December for the last 4 years. Maharaji is still on tour around the world giving talks. In the last couple years there have been 5 music CDs released by premies. Some people like M, some don't. I went to a K session in 1972 in London. you can call this recorded message number for US event info: 818-889-0500 I mean there's nothing robotic or wooden about THAT. Why, you even get right down to it, don't you? 'Some people like M, some don't'. How anyone can say you don't delve into the issues is beyond me. But then people will say anything, won't they? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:57:55 (EST) From: GAIL Email: None To: Jim Subject: CDCP Inquiry 8849993 Message: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 06:42:15 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: CD Subject: Memory Failure Alarm....... Message: Dear CD, She used the stationary to state clearly that EV is set up as an independed organization to provide financial support for programs around the world, not for Ms personal finances as is often alleged on this web site. Talk about selective memory or deaf ear syndrome. This particular scenario, of legally separating Maharaji from DLM et al. has its roots back in England in the the early 70's. DLM's early dealings with the British Charity Commission were fraught with difficulty precisely because of Maharaji's unwillingness to comply with even the letter, let alone the spirit of the law. This row went on for a very long time with high-ranking premies unable to persuade Maharaji to cooperate with the powers that be. It was a big subject at satsang, ask Glen Whittaker, and was even featured in a comedy sketch at the premie Christmas bash at the Palace of Peace. No, this state of affairs has its echoes in history as Maharaji has been dragged kicking and screaming into compliance with the law. To pretend that EV is in any way independent of Maharaji is pure unadulterated bollocks as you well know. But try it out, test it. Tell all the premies, publicly, that all proceeds from fund-raising, magazine sales etc go directly to EV who now support a number of philosophical causes and that they can no longer guarantee a specific contribution to Maharaji's expenses. Watch the sales drop. Alternatively you could find out which other speakers are invited to EV programs and what their expenses are. Sorry CD, your arguments are childishly niaive at best. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 03, 1998 at 23:56:19 (EST) From: g's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: I like the letter ??? Message: Dear Jim, I don't see any premiespeak in it. No satsang. No BS. The first two paragraphs basically explain that Elan Vital is organized in such a way that Rawat cannot be held accountable for anything that goes on. No apologies, just gives you the facts. Then she says she has no special pull with Rawat, he'll do as he pleases, but we knew that. The last paragraph is a little more vague but basically she doesn't like reading her name on the web is what I read into it. Further discussion is counterproductive to her goals. Well I'll bet it is. If she continues to talk to you she might start to listen to you. Also if she continies to talk to you Rawat may get pissed. One thing I think may be disengenuous (sp?) is the statement of ignorance of the 70's. Seems hard to believe that someone as bright as this woman seems to be wouldn't have taken just a little peek at the history books. G's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:14:51 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: everyone Subject: I DON'T like the letter Message: It's so typical. Been there = as early as Jan. 98 Yes, it would be counter-productive for her to continue communications with any of us. Didn't she make the point? OUR message?? I feel so sad reading this thread. Judex I fear I am going back where you have been,, after reading this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 04:33:19 (EST) From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: I DON'T like the letter Message: I feel so sad reading this thread. Judex I fear I am going back where you have been,, after reading this. What do you mean, Selena? You feeling okay girl? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:19:31 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: g's mom Subject: I like the letter ??? Message: G-mom, Yes, I kind of agree with you. Linda's a truly nice person and the letter reflects a certain straightforwardness I've come to expect and admire in her. On the other hand, it also smarts of EV bullshit, let's face it. AS IF Maharaji travels around the world in response to invitations from these various independent organizations. And AS IF 'Elan Vital is separate from Maharaji'. Let's put it this way: if Maharaji woke up from a bad dream tonight and decided that EV should change its name to 'Carlos and Pepe's' it'd be done in a week. If he decided there should be no more EV it might take a month. If he decides that EV -- all 50 of them -- should direct their energies a little more to the left... well, you get the idea. In an cult you don't have to be a director. Master will do. (Notice she didn't add 'beneficiary' to her list). Also, notice how Linda avoids mentioning anything about whatever response she got when she forwarded my letter? We're talking closed-shop, extremely closed-shop. Not to mention the prospect that as president of EV-US she might have a little persuasive sway with Maharaji. But, of course, that idea is anethmatic to the cult. She can safely write that she has 'no control' over Maharaji. How nice, huh? Sounds like a boiler-room sales operation which can 'always' be reached at a certain post office box. Yeah, right. No, I like Linda but I know a cover job when I see one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:35:44 (EST) From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: all true but... Message: Dear Jim, But truly, would you expect anything different? She knows that you and all of us know he could tell them to change their name and they would. I am certain from that letter she knew she wasn't fooling you or anyone. You are a lawyer, isn't this the sort of CYA thing you would expect? And she is not going to take the major risk of admitting she discussed you with Rawat and risk her response being published here. No way. Jim I am one of your biggest fans but no way she'll do that. What I liked is that she was direct. No satsang added. Just talked to you like another attorney. No attempt to apologize for her position. Am I way off base? Would not be the first time. G's mom Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:22:21 (EST) From: G's mom Email: None To: Jim Subject: cover job...I am SLOW... Message: When I was pregnant I could blame it on placenta brain, now its milk brain. Cover job means CYA right? I am arguing to the converted. I need to slow down when I read. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:46:08 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: I like the letter ??? Message: What you respect and admire is a wit and a brain and it's used in a profession you can relate to. BFD! I am not impressed. I am 'Grossed' out. pun intended and well deserved. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 00:59:49 (EST) From: G's mom Email: None To: Selena Subject: I am not being clear... Message: I think what I found refreshing was that unlike the premie posts here she just stated her position and it was over. I get crosseyed reading the premie posts here as they are so illogical and full of unrequested guru bliss blah blah... I wish she would write Jim and say ' yes, Rawat will see you on August 14 at 4pm and answer your questions'. I would love to be wrong but that is never going to happen. I do not ever expect to have the satisfaction of answers from Rawat unless Jim is able to get him into a court of law. I don't expect OJ to confess either. Bad people do bad things in this world and go to enormous lengths to get way with them. I think sometimes there is justice but I do not expect Rawat to cooperate or anyone who still wants to please him. I guess I should have said that letter is different rather than I like it. It is different from the premie posts in that she is much clearer in her communication, in my opinion, than something from the premie crew who post here. She does sound fairly bright, maybe one day she'll leave. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:09:05 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: G's mom Subject: I am not being clear... Message: Dear G's - I liked your post. I was being reactionary to Jim and his reveremce for Ms. gross, not to you. I thought your post was very clear. ( and far more literate than mine at my emoting stage ) Yes it would be nice if Ms. Gross would *not* be a lawyer for M for a candid internet nano second. and it would be nice if M were God ( wouldn't it?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:18:38 (EST) From: g's mom Email: None To: Selena Subject: thanks I misunderstood you Message: I am truly oversensitive, always have been. Feel better now :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 01:24:37 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: g's mom Subject: thanks I misunderstood you Message: Async communications have their limits at times like this. But I want to thank you. Thanks. And, we may both be in the wrong thread *(for sensitives) But so fu#$ING what??. -- -- --- - .... having fun with anger. have to right now. Selena. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:29:54 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Selena Subject: Thanks, Selna Message: I was being reactionary to Jim and his reveremce for Ms. gross Yes, Selena, you're not the first person who's warned me about being too nice to premies here. But thanks anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 13:57:17 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: I mean 'Selena' Message: yeah, what DID you mean by your Judex reference, by the way? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 17:44:15 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: I mean 'Selena' Message: Hi Jim and Judex Jim I'm glad you aren't mad at me. I do like your communications very much. What I meant was, I am in a funk. I am angry angry angry and all the sanctimonious premie posts in the world re: accepting responsibility aren't going to keep me from expressing it. And of course it's not all because of M - he doesn't deserve that much credit. I am in the middle of a rather large inheritance legal thing - I am sure you can relate! It's brought up stuff I didn't even know I had. So, going where Judex has been meant, she was telling us about an intense bout with depressiona and I fear it is now my turn. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 04, 1998 at 18:38:58 (EST) From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: to Selena Message: Dear Selena, what can I say - I hope you feel 'better' soon - whatever better is to you - I hope you can feel & express safely/manageably whatever feelings are making you depressed. You probably don't want to hear about me but what else can I talk about - until I know you better & what your situation is. Is this funny or peculiar - I was at the chemist last week in my tea break from work having a quick but thorough discussion with the chemist about neuro transmitters & nicotine withdrawals & depression. I think I'll dedicate the rest of my life to understanding brain chemistry. For me it's like trying to get a fix on some computer problem only it's the brain/emotions instead. All I know is I try not to kill myself when I am feeling that way and I tell myself it won't last forever & I try to talk to myself & tell myself I am worthy of love & I am an innocent angel (I picture my child-self about 4 y.o. looking totally crazy in photos and think she deserves love anyway). Bored you to sleep yet? Anyway thanks for sharing about how you are feeling. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 18:43:33 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: Judex Subject: to Selena Message: No way!, you haven't bored me to sleep. Although my chronic insomnia and anxiety have caused me to try to quit caffiene. 2 days and I am falling asleep on my feet at times. It's weird. So, I have a hint of what nicotine withdrawals are, tho I know they are worse. Thanks for writing that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 00:21:32 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim I have some fundamental problems with Linda Gross' entirely legalistic description of the EV structure and MJ's arms length role, etc. I was deeply involved in the formation of EV in Australia and the Pacific and I was personally aware of the guiding principles behind the formation of EV which were essentially to create an arms length vehicle for MJ's work which would support him, his family, his tours, aircraft and anything else he might want and need but in such a way as to allow him maximum legal flexibility and protection. I travelled to Malibu and Miami on many occasions to have private meetings with Michael Dettmers and Peter Potter to fine tune the EV structure. It was well known amongst the higher echelon of premies what EV was all about. I've been out of the scene for years now. Reading Linda Gross' letter (think I remember her via Newt Gay) verifies to me that we achieved our goal of those times which was to create a sustainable separate legal entity to MJ which to all intents and purposes would be separate but in reality, working for the enduring theme of MJ supportive goals. This is not an aim I would wish to pursue in any way, shape or form now as I am an ex-premie of some considerable time. Nobody buys the EV propaganda unless they have an ardent desire to keep the MJ dream alive at the expense of common sense and clear judgement . Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 12:52:03 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Hi KK, Nice to hear from you. No, of course Linda's description about EV's relationship with Maharaji is most significant for what it omits. We all know that EV only exists at the whim of M. The distinction she earnestly describes is lost on me. Maybe I should write her back and ask her how much of EV's budget is spent on M's expenses. Maybe she'll tell me that its none of my business. Maybe some really loving premie, like Chris, should ask her. Maybe she'll tell HIM. Ha ha ha. KK, could you elaborate further on these meetings with Dettmers and Potter? Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:07:22 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim, what is Linda talking about regarding resigning her position in 1980? If she is referring to my remembrances of her, note that she didn't deny any of the rest of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 14:48:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Jim, what is Linda talking about regarding resigning her position in 1980? If she is referring to my remembrances of her, note that she didn't deny any of the rest of it. Joe, Yeah, I don't know WHAT she's saying there. Should I write her back asking about that and also asking how much money EV spends on Maharaji's expenses annually? Or, and this would be a fun question to, how do the 'directors' of EV decide on things? Does Maharaji ever suggest proposals? Do they then -- look, I'm really trying to keep a straight face here and YOU'RE not helping! -- do they... ha ha ah ... sorry. Okay, I can do this. Really. Okay, yes, I should also ask her if, by chance, Maharaji DOES make a suggestion to the directors of EV... sorry, this is too funny! I was up really late last night. I think I'm stil a little hungover or something. Okay, I can control myself... 'Dear Linda, Could you please advise me if Maharaji sometimes makes suggestions to the EV Board of Directors. If he does, do they then VOTE on it?' H HA HA HA!! 'Vote on it'! Get it? HA HA HA... 'Maharaji? Is Maharaji there?' Just a sec. Who is this? Linda?' 'Yes, it's me. Who's this? Raja Ji?' Yeah. I'll get Maharaji. He's around here somewhere. Probably surfing the net or something, you know. Hey, by the way, what happened with that proposal Maharaji had for the summer tour? Has the board met yet? 'Yeah, well that's what I want to talk with him about. Can you get him?' 'Yeah, but you don't sound too happy. You're not telling me that..' 'Raja Ji! Will you PLEASE just get Maharaji for me? PLEASE?!' 'Okay. Sorry. I understand. It's just that, I don't understand it. This is the third proposal he's submitted this month. What's with those guys?' 'RAJA JI!!' 'Okay, okay. I'm going! Meditate, will ya'?' [Puts phone down. Sound of some Hindi exchange off in the distance. Then, a distnat but clearly audible, angry 'What? Those fucking assholes!' Then, a new voice on the phone] 'Linda!' 'Yes, Maharaji, I just..' ' What happened ?' '... called to tell you...' 'What happened? Did they go for it? What's going on?' 'Maharaji, I odn't know what to tell you. The board did meet but no, the DIDN'T go for it. I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. I did my best to put forth your idea and everything..' 'Linda, you don't know how this hurts me. I have my work to do, like Shri Maharaji had his, like my brother, Guru Maharaj Ji, has his. I can't do it if my own organization..' 'Ah ah, Maharaji! You know what I've said about that!' 'Okay, OUR organization 'No, Maharaji! Not even 'our'. Please, trust me on this. Please, just call it EV, will you? You're giving me conniptions!' 'Okay, whatever. See, that's the whole point. Do you think Shri Maharaji had to put up with this? Or my brother? Do you think he has to beg and whine to seom stupid board or something who don't even do what ...' 'But that's the whole point, Maharaji. You're just an invited guest of EV at some of its events. Nude nudge, wink wink. Come on, Maharaji, remember why we did it this way. Besides, don't you want to know WHY they didn't go for it?' 'No, I don't want to know anything. I'm just really fed up. Talk to Raja Ji' 'Hello? Linda?' 'Raja Ji, how is he? I'm really worried....' 'Well, Linda, I think he has a right to be upset, don't you? I mean, he's right. What if our father in heaven ... I mean he can see everything already, but what if.. well, what if Satpal could see what's going on here? This is humiliating, you know?' 'Raja Ji, I don't know what to say. This is just the way Maharaji set things up.' 'Well if he made it, he can change it. Don't forget...'Creator, destroyer, preserver'' 'You mean 'Creator, preserver, destoryer.' 'Yeah, well..' 'No, Raja Ji. I'm afraid it's not that simple. See, Maharaji is really just an invited speaker at some Ev events. That's what I keep trying to remind him...' 'Linda, I'm sorry, can we talk about this later? My show's just come on. I'll give you a call, okay? Meanwhile, talk to those guys again, will ya'' 'Raja Ji, I will but I think you and Maharaji just have to understand that this isn't the old DLM anymore. It's not even the old EV. Anyway, I'll let you go..' 'Okay, see ya.' 'Yeah, 'bye'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 21:05:20 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Very good, Jim. Must say, it's a little weird that in her letter Linda says EV invites BM to appear at events, but then she previously told you that she didn't know why those same events were cancelled. She seems a little 'out of the loop' for the president of the organization. Maybe her board wouldn't tell her. Must remind you that EV is nothing more than DLM with a name change made in 1986, according to the California Secretary of State. Moreover, the Registrar of Charitable Trusts, told me that EV is an 'inactive' non-profit and therefore no longer had to file reports. Wonder why that is, if it is so active in promoting BM's teachings. Seems Linda would remember all the most outrageous cult-like behavior and financial shennanigans of the late 70s if she was a lawyer is the OFFICE OF GURU MAHARAJI until 1980. I guess she left Miami Beach about the same time I did. Also, did you ask her if she has talked to Linda Smith lately? She was also a lawyer at OGM. I haven't talked to Linda in a few years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:41:38 (EST) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: BRAVO!! One of your best, Jim. You must have a microphone at the Divine Residence. Laughed my ass off! Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 02:15:54 (EST) From: 900 Foot Jesus Email: None To: Jim Subject: Calling Jim Home Message: Yikes! For the sake of Holy Moses you might get called home by our Heavenly Father. Be careful, Jim. I have great plans for you. I'll come to you in your dreams. Be sure to listen and have your checkbook by your bedside. Big J. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 08:01:32 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: 900 Foot Jesus Subject: Calling Jim Home Message: Whoever wrote this, know that you are treading on awfully thin ice in the threat department. In fact you may have already fallen through. Care to clarify your statement here? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:39:51 (EST) From: .9 Inch J Email: None To: Katie Subject: Calling Jim Home Message: a bad joke, that's all Jim's post was simply WILD! Loved it. The 900 foot reference and all was to Oral Roberts. Apologies... Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:59:34 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: .9 Inch J Subject: Thank you, JESUS!! Message: Yes, last night when I first read your post I wondered for a sec. (Thanks for getting a little, how shall we say? 'proactive' for me, Katie. Much appreciated.) But I kind of knew you were kidding. Thanks for the comment and clarification. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:25:55 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: .9 inch Jesus Subject: Thank you, JESUS!! Message: Dear J - I like the idea of the .9 inch Jesus, and I had forgotten about Oral Roberts (how COULD I!). I appreciate the clarification. Thanks for not calling Jim home just yet. Regards, Katie P.S. There is a great Willie Porter song called 'Jesus on the Grille' about those glow in the dark Jesuses that truck drivers put on the front of their Peterbilts. Highly recommended to you! Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 01:28:58 (EST) From: Shrinking J Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thank you, JESUS!! Message: Thank the Heavenly Father I didn't go with 9mm Jesus which is even smaller. Oral Roberts: The hucksters are in every realm making their claims to being God or knowing God on a first name basis or God talking to them directly. Jim's post seemed so extremely sacrilegious, if that applies, and very funny and probably reality based to some degree. I would have been afraid to write that one. Even if MJ has no powers there is Raja's WPC and all those crazies. We all know about the Detroit Pie incident. Hopefully, those days are way gone and none of us has to worry about that kind of stuff. Yeah, I might have recently heard that song, 'Jesus on the Grille'. I love those kinda songs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 07:54:55 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: G'day Jim Basically the meetings involved discussions about money, tours, MJ's current way of thinking. Mainly MONEY. There was never enough MONEY coming in. Nothing too fixed apart from MONEY. Not particularly relaxing because of the constant financial pressure. Much of the discussion was implied because we were all on the same wave length and I guess one of the main reasons anyone ended up in that position was because they were adept at reading between the lines. You didn't have to be Einstein to work out that everything revolved around supporting MJ's lifestyle at whatever cost. Example: I recall having quite a lot of say in the discussions. In 1986 I insisted, 'NO, He can't just pull the pin on doing a program in Taiwan and expect them to still come up with squillions of dollars to buy a jet'. No Taiwan so no money. Of course, a large part of the frustration around money involved observing the outrageous waste. Shameless waste of money on whims. Examples: I was called to LA and told MJ wanted to see me. 'Just wait in the hotel room and he'll call.' I waited for ten days in relative luxury at the organisation's expense. No problem. $000s later. Trivial? It went on all the time. Miami, very often. Is there anybody reading this who remembers when the Kyoto program was cancelled in 1984/5. Months of preparation. I felt terrible. MJ rang me in the middle of the night in Tokyo - we were leaving on the bullet train the next day for Kyoto - to tell me to get him the first available flight to Hong Kong/Delhi because Sampurnanand had had a heart attack. I couldn't believe he would do this. Particularly when it emerged later that it was a false alarm largely. Just took off and everybody was left $000s out of pocket. A divine lila, you old premies. Are you reading this, Kato San? Wonderful people in Japan who did a lot to make everything comfortable for us. Hope you have seen the real light by now. It was like this all the time. In 1986 MJ had to cancel the Pacific tour. Padarthanand was in the US giving everybody 'Pacific-sang' - anybody have the great fortune of listening to his wondrous diatribe about how perfect everything was in the Pacific? a place he'd established as a fiefdom until MJ realised he was an obstacle to financial progress and stuck him in satellite towns in the US on tour for about 9 months. I was one of the few people, if not the only person I know, who left the organisation with some financial compensation - a sum of money to get on with life. Why? Because I asked. No problem at all. It didn't buy MJ 12 years of my silence. It bought me food, rent, clothes etc after years of minimalism in the name of devotion. I could actually go to a movie, buy a paperback novel, have a meal in a restaurant. I've actually forgotten how guilty I initially felt about doing this. I had no doubt about my past contribution so I asked for some help. To mentally survive, I had to stay away from anyone remotely connected to the organisation. Like a heroin addict staying away from every possible point of vulnerability. Initiators and premies used to ring and write to me. Charnanand wrote to me for ages, Padarthanand sent me Xmas cards, people tried to keep the contact up. No thanks. I slammed the door. I believe it took a relatively short time to obtain almost total objectivity. Now I look upon it that it was a confronting thing for the initiators because they used to always try and get my ear to get close to HIM, then they wanted my ear to find out if it was really true that MJ was: eating meat, heaven forbid smoking, gosh etc etc etc etc etc Last meeting I had with MJ and the hanchos was in 1986 in LA, Miami and Sydney. Amicable, thank you for sharing, let's be gracious about all this. I was a liability, you see. There's a word in Hindi for a person who's in darkness - anybody remember? - anyway that was me, so there was feigned politeness. No need to get negative towards those people because they helped me to realise I could leave. They merely worked for MJ like a job. I felt that they had mixed personal views which they rarely shared. Not the initiators. Let me say that they were out there, trying to be perfect in all their imperfection and I know MJ just didn't know what to do with 75% of them because they were not the greatest at making money. Their way of getting money was to prevail upon the devotional side, he was trying to get away from the clinging devotees and they were encouraging everybody into that Hinduisation because that was their comfort zone. He wanted most of them gone. I know this for a fact including the ones who to this day are probably right in his inner circle. He does have some guilt about letting these people go. He spoke about this very specifically. Not just the Indian ones actually. No names, they're probably still holding on to the dream. They think he's so merciful! Jim, how about a challenge? To all those active 'premies' who read the Forum and pretend they don't, whose curiosity gets the better of them. Why don't you show some pluck and join in on the discussion? Do you really believe this cult can be justified? We're not 21 anymore. Most of us are facing middle age. Are you one of those whose never had a chat to HIM even but keeps on giving him your hard earned money, time, forsaking job security to run around after this immature twerp whose claim to fame is sibling rivalry. Believe me, if you did have a chat and you were able to see that what you'd be getting off on was how you think you SHOULD and MUST be feeling rather than just how absolutely one dimensional, linear and trite the chitchat really was, you'd be outa there. I got out in time to make a life - about age 28 - I saw people devastated, suppressing ttheir humanity for a place in his little palace of greed. Come on, take the plunge......................... Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:06:34 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: Thanks KK... Message: Hi KK, Thanks a lot for your post. I can't emphasise enough just how important it is for those who were involved in full-time service or who feel responsible in whatever way for perpetuating the myth, to hear from others like yourself. It's good to hear that you're doing OK and you are so right to challenge the lurkers to engage in the debate. regards Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:35:16 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Richard Subject: Thanks KK... Message: No problem, Richard. I'm doing fine, 12 years later after 12 years in there. I received Knowledge in 1973ish at aged 15. What an adolescence! Hope you're going OK, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 11:17:01 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: for KK Message: Wow, thanks for that post. Do you know that they are playing the old and new devotional songs to him at events? And even -lord of the universe- song is getting instrumental air play. To get knowledge they insist that you have no other religion but rawat, and kissing his feet is now back on, and the marketing arm of ev is heavily slanted to protraying him as god incarnate and he is heavily implying his own divinity in his talks. He is going around to knowledge reviews telling that the guru is the one pushing your breath back and forth like a swing. Have some mercy on those that weren't up close like you and have become life long prisoners of his continued portrayal of himself as god incarnate. ev makes the claim to be in 90 countries and what defence do those people have against the marketing of the old video footage and the insidious claims that rawat makes? PLEASE tell your story fully about how he is NOT any more anything than anyone else. And also the stories you have heard about his bad behaviours and his excesses. You mentioned how you landed on your feet rapidly. MANY people are still trapped and more are destined to become ensnared by his 'I am god' trip. Maybe the inner circle became clear by seeing up close, but most victims were and are still needing to hear the stories you can tell. I was stuck till 97 and I know many others that can be helped by you just being honest and by you kindly extending yourself by takeing the time to tell us the truth about him. If he wasn't going full bore at trying to push the old I am god incarnate trip into 90 countries, then maybe we would have no need to try to get the truth told. But truly he is going full steam ahead and consequences be damned. Truth be damned, and if you read the -another- post up top, you will see that the way another views haveing to explain past actions is exactly the way rawat views it. He really is doing a bad deed still with his 90 country push. We have evidence besides yours, but please tell your side fully. bill burke Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 09:58:44 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: bb Subject: for KK Message: Hi Bill The momentum keeps going because of people's need. He is not actually powerful in himself. It is people's perception of his power that makes him able to do it. I believe he is yesterday's man because he doesn't hold any power over me. I appreciate the need for tolerance, so I don't mean to patronise anyone who's still into the cult. Just a few days ago I ran into a premie I hadn't seen for 13 years whom I knew as an aspirant. She is a very talented and accomplished film actress who was on her way to an audition with a world famous director. I think I could feel her anxiety about how I would be - would I be co-operative and gracious or resistant and defensive? When I asked her how she was and how lovely it was to see her etc, how was her mother (she was a devout Catholic), wished her well in her career, it seemed surprising for her. She said 'Oh, I'm OK. Mum's dead but it's all OK' She didn't ask me ONE QUESTION. This was unlike her because she hadn't completely made the lifestyle switch when I knew her. [There was still HOPE]. She'd chat to me about literature, music, the arts etc. People like her probably became involved because I had a few more words in my vocabulary than service, satsang and meditation! But her fear was palpable. After all, I could shatter her 'world' by driving the point home. At the end I quickly told her what I do for a job and how I am actually having a good time doing it. An angle on my life as a member of the world, not the cult. She rushed away, probably confused. Anyway, hey what can you do. Chat away on the net, I guess. Try to make a life which has a wide embrace so that something worthwhile can come of what you do. I mean for years and years, I thought the purpose of my life was to do PRACHAR, remember that word - PROPOGATION. I gave it a good go. Nice to hear from you. I'll speak to you another time, I'm sure. Regards, KK PS I am amazed about the swing back to the old guru-devotee syndrome. I thought that went out with the Ark. It won't work, believe me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:03:21 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: WOW Message: KK, Thanks so much for that. Man, I thought this was true, but it still floors me to hear from the inside what a charade Maharaji's cult really is. Thanks again. JW Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:00:52 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: WOW Message: Absolutely right, JW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:11:34 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: Absolutely right, JW. I know, you were talking in your sleep. Really, Joe, this kind of self-confirmation is beneath you. Way to tell him, Jim Hey, don't mention it No, really, Jim, I think that was an excellent point, Alright!! Jim :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:33:07 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: Yes, I've found it is much easier just to agree with myself. All that discussion and consensus building is such a nuisance. I don't know who posted that agreement. Katie, someone is using my tag! Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:38:38 (EST) From: Rick Email: None To: JW Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: It looked like KK made a few little boo-boos and put the recipient in the 'From' box. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:09:06 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Rick Subject: Joe, that's pathetic Message: My apolgies. I was very tired and I'm new to the net. Thanks for your patience. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 14:35:25 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: KK Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: Everyone should read your above post, KK. I concur with Bill that you've got quite a story to tell to those of us who never got so up close and personal with Rawat. That time that you waited to see him, did you finally? How about other times? What DO you know in the way of simple, dirty gossip? My thought has always been that we have every right in the world to indulge in the real-life coprology (study of feces?) of the man who got us to drink his bathwater. We have every right to laugh at his body. We even have every right to laugh at his stupid wife who has supported and benefitted from his delusion all this time. So what DO you know about all those gossipy little things people have always asked you about? What WAS Maharaji like in your contacts with him? You know... Thanks again for what you've already given here. Your challenge is a good idea. I also think your example, as did JM's, serves as something of a challenge as well to other people who were close to Maharaji. They could REALLY help put this picture together. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:04:01 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: all Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: Just read it, thanks to x alerting me. What can I say? It certainly does take away from the god illusion to see him up close and personal. I never have, yet I always kind of sensed that he was arrogant and selfish and that I really wouldn't want to be close. Just being close to those who were close was often bad. They were so weird, spacey and self absorbed. This post would indeed help some but unfortunaly there are many who cannot and will not give up their belief systems. Another reason for me to feel gratitude that I listened to my doubts and emotions and thoughts. Thanks KK Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:41:47 (EST) From: Selena Email: None To: Selena Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: G'day Selena I don't remember being weird, spacey and self absorbed. I do remember never meditating, hardly ever going to satsang and doing a hell of a lot of 'service'. I'm glad we both listened inside, aren't you? I had to or I was going to lose my mind. After I made my decision to leave and find somehwere else to live and something else to do, I vomited. I felt so sick and shaky. One of the premies at the residence told me to go to a hospital. I went to the airport and caught a plane to the rest of my life. I've had food posioning since but never like that episode. Phew! Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:07:47 (EST) From: Gail Email: freedom@gtn.net To: Jim Subject: Thank you KK Message: Too bad you had to sit by the phone for 10 days. The people you worked with must have seen this situation just as you did. Why haven't they gotten out? What keeps you in at the top? Money? What? Why hasn't this bubble burst already? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:44:18 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Gail Subject: Thank you KK Message: FEAR. It has burst. You just don't hear about it. I haven't discussed this period of my life with anyone in the 12 years since I've left, not even my spouse in any significant detail. Where would you start? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:24:53 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: Spouses Message: KK, I haven't discussed this period of my life with anyone in the 12 years since I've left, not even my spouse in any significant detail. Where would you start? This sounds awfully familiar. I took my wife to a program once before we married, back in '84, having already severed the material ties. She didn't bite, I left it at that. Beyond telling her the basics (I took this meditation course and lived in an ashram) we never really discussed it. Recently, because of my need for her to understand more about my motivations and aspirations, I have tried to explain the period in greater depth. Wow! How do you explain (or justify) the life of a full-time service premie? I don't think she really wants to hear too much more. Would you? Which is one reason that this forum is vital. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:14:32 (EST) From: Rick Email: None To: Richard Subject: Spouses Message: I've tried to tell the woman I live with about my past involvement with BM. She gets a vacant look in her eyes and then tries to change the subject. She thinks it's the most boring shit she's ever heard. I think most people are flabbergasted that anyone could have fallen for this. After similar responses I've received from other people, I stopped mentioning it. It is, after all, embarrassing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 12:37:16 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: Richard Subject: Spouses Message: Richard, I've only recently began telling my partner about my cult involvement in the past year. Little by little. He was at first a little freaked by it, because to him it seemed to totally impossible that I could have been involved in something like that. I have decided to show him the Lord of the Universe video, with some introductory preparation. But most of the details, I haven't we haven't really discussed. I think this is a common scenario for a lot of ex-premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:28:40 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Richard Subject: Spouses Message: I found Bob Mishler's interview a helpful way of introducing some basic concepts. Beyond that I've left it alone. I guess once you process your own needs including the need to talk about it to your intimate, it is less relevant to actually do so. The lifestyle is justified in that it was what you did in good faith at that point in time in your life. Be kind to yourself. I'm not prepared to write off 12 years as an unjustified phase of my life. I didn't lose out. I express this period as a search and an adventure and a strictly limited edition! Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:31:10 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: KK Subject: By the way.. Message: I had a really good mate from back then who did a lot of stuff for Maharaji, Paul Griffin. Did you know him, what happened to him? Anyone know. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:35:27 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Jim Subject: EVERYONE PLEASE READ! Message: It's like this, Jim. He's totally a regular guy. Nothing more or less. I remember once asking him on the way to his limousine at the Peninsular Hotel, Hong Kong 'is there anything you'd like, MJ?' He said in a resigned, quite depressed sort of way 'Yeah, about a million dollars' before getting in the car and taking off. Now that's not the first thing that'd come into my mind if you asked me that question but for him, it was very real as far as I could work out. Like I said yesterday, the mantra was MONEY. I was so relieved to get away from an environment obsessed with money. I used to feel the ulcers coming on because one thing was certain, there would never be enough. Maralyn wants this ( a new car), the kids want that (a new horse or gizmo), MJ wants something else (a bigger better smarter plane). Meanwhile there were other money pressures mainly from Mahatmas/initiators. Can they buy some clothes most commonly. I'd hear these drawn out explanations about why Jagdeo needed a new pair of pants. Or Susan Johnson needed a beige evening blouse. Not to mention tour costs. Once I did the sums for MJ to go commercially in total luxury. He wouldn't hear of it as a routine possibility. Although he has done it when essential. I explained to him that the Queen of England could afford it but not him. One of the heaviest issues driving people crazy at the top was how on earth he was going to survive financially. Thank God, I left that headache to someone else. At the same time, I was trying to work out ways of preventing fraud. It was widespread. People saboutaged MJ continually. He didn't seem to care. Once somebody was stealing from the divine residence and he insisted that nothing be done about it and it was a considerable amount of goods. My theory now is that he lacks any sense of value anyway. Why else would you cut a car in half so proudly that one of your devotees had given you. Yes, well obvioulsy because you're an ignorant person but also because you must lack a basic, non-emotional, simple factual grasp of the value of the transaction in material terms. Not sure I answered your questions. I did see him that time at Malibu in his house, elevated office for a few hours. There were many other occasions. Countless times over the years. Phone conversations also. In personal contact, he is in control, he is never an observer, he is always the centre of attention, you speak when he allows it, he loves to entertain and get fairly intoxicated. He has special premie friends whom he entertains in his hotel suite on tour.Usually they are wealthy. Hello, South America! He is also often late, off hand, not in any way accountable. You can have a list of vital things that you think you must discuss with him because you're trying to glue some amazing deal together to get him to x y or z location to do a b or c that he's decided he must do and he just won't let you talk about it. I found this untenable so I quit. The main reason I survived afterwards I think as a reasonable sane person in the latter part of the 20th century apart from the good fortune of being perched as I am on the edge of this sparsely populated continent called Australia - idyllic, is because I insisted he compensate me. He actually thanked me very warmly and said that one thing he appreciated was that I never complained about anything even although things were very demanding. Hey, maybe I'm a saint! Who of us did complain? I think premies are amazing, the most uncomplaining types there are. I found this remark curious because he was one of the biggest whingers of all time (whinge = complainers in Aussie). Again there are different rules for him. Was anybody at the party at the restaurant in Malibu in 1986 when he and Marilyn had a stand up row in public and she left. It was all over for me by then and just as well because at least two initiators freaked out. One of them asked me for guidance, what's going on, who's upsetting MJ etc and why is this happening. At the time, I thought and said 'because he's HUMAN (not divine, you see)' Maybe it was over the toothpaste. The point is that he is just a regular guy. He smokes cigarettes and like most smokers, he's addicted. He likes luxury and unlike most of us, he ensures that he lives in it. He believes he is worthy of everything that comes his way. NO SELF DOUBT that I ever noticed. Speak to you soon, Jim. Thanks for your comments. I'm running out of steam. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 15:11:05 (EST) From: JW Email: None To: KK Subject: Padarthanand Message: Thanks again for you insightful post. I wanted to comment on a couple of things, although my involvement ended in 1983, so it's older stuff: It was like this all the time. In 1986 MJ had to cancel the Pacific tour. Padarthanand was in the US giving everybody 'Pacific-sang' - anybody have the great fortune of listening to his wondrous diatribe about how perfect everything was in the Pacific? a place he'd established as a fiefdom until MJ realised he was an obstacle to financial progress and stuck him in satellite towns in the US on tour for about 9 months. I recall in the mid-70s Padarthanad was touring the US after spending perhaps a couple of years in Australia and the Pacific. Padarthanand went on and on (Padarthonon???) to me and some other premies, who were in charge of getting people ready for knowledge, about how togther the premies were in Australia and that such a large percentage were practicing knowledge, unlike the US, where maybe 10-20% did. Of course he took full credit for this divine situation. Later this turned out to be meaningless crap, of course. Then, he proceeded to make knowledge selections. One aspirant was a black guy I worked with (we were both zookeepers). I remember his name was Lannie. He was a great guy and very sincere. I sat in on the knowledge selection. Padarthanand asked him a couple of innocuous questions and then told him he lacked the dedication and surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji and wasn't ready for knowledge. Later, Padarthanad told me, in the most racist of terms, that 'black people are like people from Tahiti' and are very lazy, self-indulgent in pursuing pleasures and undisciplined. Here was this 'holy man' being an absolute bigot. It really freaked me out at the time. Of course, I tried to 'surrender' and didn't call him on it. Later, when Padarthanad toured, I always got the impression that he really wanted to be a guru himself, and was quite proud of himself and how devoted and spiritual he was. I could never forget those comments. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 10:57:03 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: JW Subject: Padarthanand Message: Thank you so much for your anecdote about our old mate, Paddy. He had quite a way of playing the saint, didn't he? He and MJ are nooses around each other's neck. It's some kind of perverse mutual admiration society. If Pad. wasn't so fundamentally lacking in true character, he could find a spiritual job somewhere else extolling the virtues of Mother India and reciting the Mahabarata every breathing moment of the day to whoever he could find. Except no other Swami Ji would have him. He is without peer at the bottom of the snake oil salesman pile. Your story doesn't surprise me one bit. Thanks very much for telling it. It is very helpful for me to realise I wasn't going crazy when I internally railed against this behaviour. He was full of it. Apparently he's in this country continuing to impress those who are ready with his quaint little tomes about MJ and the peccadillos of his cluttered world as SUPER DEVOTEE.Being the thundering bore that he is. At least MJ will tell you to your face that he is tired, premied-out or sick of the D-line. Paddy is never less than perfect. Great hearing from you. You took me back. It's unconscionable, isn't it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 16:47:18 (EST) From: g's mom Email: None To: KK Subject: your letter Message: Dear KK, I just want to thank you for your post. I am not sure why but I find it very helpful to read stories from those who knew the man Rawat and not the mythologic character we worshipped. It helps a lot of things make sense. I wondered if they ever compensated some of the mucky mucks who left. I had hoped they did. JW posted recently about how it bothered him how Rawat brags about his children's educational successes and how that was financed from the hard work of men and women who gave up their own educational aspirations to Rawat. That to me is the crime he perpetrated that bothers me the most. So many bright, talented and caring people wasting their lives. So much lost potential to REALLY do good in the world. Too many people who could be anything they wanted instead running around getting him toys. I am glad you got out young enough to make something of your life. It seems there are many here who have rebuilt their lives very well. I am glad. Thanks again for your post. I am really hoping you will post more as you have already answered questions I have always had. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:08:27 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: g's mom Subject: your letter Message: Thanks very much. So very true. I'm glad I did get out for a heap of reasons but one main one sticks out. I became a premie because I wanted to do something for the planet, in my own quaint and idealistic way. I used to love the possibility of World Peace. I used to watch the busloads of Indian premies arriving for a program in India or even Orlando, and think, WOW, it's all happening. Of course, my grief was when I realsied that I'd been had. This was a personally damaging insight. I felt that I'd betrayed myself. However I have gone on to achieve some things which make me feel I'm honouring, not betraying my life. I just had to put one foot after the other and trust that the doors would open because at times early on, I felt so dysfunctional. Even just explaining to people, potential employers/friends what I'd been doing for 12 or 13 years and justifying it. 'Well, I wanted to make a difference on the planet' Yeah, but why did you pick a fake guru to do it with? Life's good, isn;'t it? I've never let MJ or his shabby outfit make me think otherwise for more than a nanosecond every blue moon. Cheers to you and thanks. PS When I told one of my peers at the top, I was blowing the joint (this is our slang for leaving), he told me that MJ had never tried to stop anyone who had truly made up their mind. MJ himself confirmed this to me and gave me his 'Blessings' for a new life. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 16:40:19 (EST) From: bb Email: None To: KK Subject: KK Message: Of course that was a good deal different from the kind of stuff he would say at the programs. He was extremely heavy with all of those who were just listening to him at events. And the initiators would get back from thier private meetings with him and he would say the most life threatening things to them to maintain his control over them through fear and his I am god pretense. Maybe you and other inner circle guys had less trouble bailing out because of your proximity and you had the smarts to avoid satsang. But it is just an incredible acting job to go to programs and dance with the crown and act like god on earth and demand total everything from us and then on the hidden side be like he was. So many inner circle people have left and only bob mishler had the character and guts to try to help those who were being fooled by being honest and he tried to tell the story to others and not just leave the trapped ones to thier fate. Rennie davis couldn't care less about the consequences of all his cheerleading and advertising for rawat. He is a new ager and has no moral fiber to recognise his responsibility. You are the first one to step forward ,thank you, and it is going to help a number of people I know make the transition to clear thinking from the tightening grip he has on them. rawat has no intention of comeing clean and undoing his false claims that he is still presently makeing. maybe you are cute or something and rawat let you be in some special catagory when to most people he maintained the I am god thing. He kept up his front so that Bill Patterson, who was also close, was maintained in his devotee status until even HE finally cracked. After all HIS satsang he should do some time at the programs handing out info telling the truth. Of course during that 84,85,86 era rawat was makeing efforts to tone down the lord thing but it was still done with his comments that -I could keep it like this forever, but for the sake of propagation devotion won't be offered all the time-. Keeping many people still on the hook and these days he is back to the intensity of his divine self importance leaveing no way for the long suffering programmed ones to get out and flee. What happened to the guy who was in charge of the plane when on the first tour stop in Montreal the plane was turned off and then the heat was turned on too fast and most of the ebony trim we put on 'blued'? I heard rawat ripped into him really intensly. As you saw at that restaurant with Marolyn (probably toned down somewhat) and other occasions with others that you saw? It must have been stressful keeping up the pretense. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 08, 1998 at 05:58:24 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: bb Subject: KK Message: What happened to Bill Patterson, bb? I remember him really well. It's hard to find a place to tell the story like Bob did because not every media outlet is all that interested. I've never tried but I don't think they'd be rushing me off my feet. I'm grateful that so many people are finding my short spots helpful. I had no real idea how much people are still processing because I've been so out of touch. There must be some other people out there who could have a chat to us. Not everybody is still at his feet, I'm certain. How about Joan Apter? Arthur Brigham? Julian West? Ira Woods? Michael Donner? etc etc etc Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 17:39:20 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Thank you for this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 19:57:30 (EST) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: KK Subject: Post from KK Message: Welcome to the Forum, KK. I was starting to believe I had imagined you, and was thinking about writing you for permission to publish your email. What you've seen while you were close to Maharaji is important to not only ex's wrestling with their own freedom, but to those lurking premies who have so far only played with the idea of walking away from the cult. When you get a chance, I'd love to publish a Journeys entry from you so that what you have experienced will not end up in a Forum archive somewhere, but will remain on the site itself. Until then, keep posting. And start new threads. You'll get MANY responses! Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:25:01 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Brian Subject: Post from KK Message: Hi Brian Thanks for your message. I'm just getting the hang of the internet. When I can work out about the other features of this site, I'll get into it! Meanwhile, I've been astounded at the response to my comment. I had a rarified view of it all obviously. I can't say much more than that I'm slowly remembering so many things about that 'lifetime' as I read the Forum. Not sure I want to have all this memory jogging! They were heady days. Not least of which was due to the relative pointlessness of it all at the end of the day. Did I really need to empty the entire contents of a premie's house in FIJI because MJ said he wanted to 'stay in a house', not a hotel. We literally emptied everything, I mean everything out of the house, put it into storage and spent two whole days up without sleep scrubbing it from wall to wall, refurnishing it, the whole hoo-ha. Wait for it. MJ arrived and looked around. Within 5 minutes, he decided he wanted to stay in a hotel, having made such an issue of the house scenario. When I told the premie owners, they were FURIOUS. They didn't even attend his program. I mean, does this sound NORMAL to you. I guess, if you think you are the most important person on the planet and everyone exists for your convenience. Anyway, I think these people were lucky because they wiped him as a result and got on with their lives. 'No guru's gonna heap shit on my house!' is their life headline.Very obliging Indian family. When I can work out the next step, I'll be back to you by email. If I go off the Forum sometimes, it's because I'm travelling with my work. Thanks for your encouragement, Brian. Talk to you again soon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:47:10 (EST) From: Rick Email: None To: KK Subject: Post from KK Message: Interesting story about the BM demanding a house and then cavalierly changing his mind, after the whole place had been turned upside down. Not surprising though, considering a sub-culture that put useless self-sacrifice up on a pedestal. I related to the couple ditching the BM after getting their face rubbed in the dirt like that. It jogged my memory about 'the first nail in the coffin' for my exodus. I was living in Miami with my ex-wife and 3 year-old son and Hans Jayanti 79 was going to be Kissimee. We saved and scrimped every last penny, and drove up there in a station wagon - we had no money for registration or admission; just barely enough to eat. We slept overnight in our station wagon in an orange grove, got woken up and evicted, and spent most of the night looking for a place to park and sleep. The next day we showed up and explained we were broke and had spent every last penny to get there. The dorks at the gate told us to panhandle from other premies entering the site, until we had the necessary $70 to pay the registration. I remember pleading for a waiver of the fee, but the honcho clearly didn't give two shits... pay up or move on. We felt too strongly about not wanting to panhandle so packed up and left. I remember the resentment I felt, 'Some fucking grace. Every last ditch effort to see the Great Lord, and sent on my way like yesterday's trash.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 06, 1998 at 20:41:21 (EST) From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Interesting post, KK. I wondered whatever happened to Peter Potter and now I know, nothing happened, he just kept doing what he did back in 1973 when I used to be his secretary in London. That guy *never* went to satsang or appeared to meditate (which, to a budding devotional premie like me was incomprehensible), just stayed at his desk 16 hours a day doing his service. Amazing that he is still working for Rawat. I hope he's at least making some money himself for all his years of hard work, he was a talented accountant. I think he married a rather nice ashram premie named Lee, I wonder if they are still together? (you could e-mail me if you like re anything personal) Dettmers always seemed like a total droid to me, he never gave satsang, either; those finance guys he had around him were pretty dedicated. Keep on posting, we all love to hear any tidbits from anyone on the inside of those residence walls. (And congratulations on getting your life back!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 11:13:48 (EST) From: KK Email: None To: Joy Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: G'day Joy Peter Potter married Angela in 1986. He divorced Lee who raised their daughter whom I gather Peter was very attached to I don't know if he's still into it. I agree he's a smart guy and a very polite and pleasant person to deal with. Dettmers was kind of DRY, wasn't he? He got married to Maria Isabel, the Portuguese ex-initiator in about 1985. He did used to give satsang during his brief reign as an initiator in the mid-1980s. Yeah, there was constant work. Never ending. I was sleep deprived for years. It never ended. I'll keep in touch. All the best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 07, 1998 at 20:41:22 (EST) From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: KK Subject: Letter FROM Linda Gross Message: Dear KK, Thank you for being so open. I hope some premies read this and it hits them as an awakening. Even a bit hard to here all these years later although I already suspected. Love, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index

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