Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:36:16 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Curious George Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

Very touching. Makes me want to design and conduct a study that would locate and measure by some method how all those premie kids turned out as adults. Emotionally, socially, physically. I often felt deeply saddened by some of the conditions premie kids were subjected to. Shitty clothes, very little medical care, lots of broken families, free for all child care schemes, inadequate nutrition, disruption of their schooling so their premie parent/parents could attend programs, financial resources contributed to M, the fat jerk, instead of going to these most innocent of victims. When I think of it, that whole era it makes me sick. It was very wrong indeed. I knew lots of premie children who were really wanting. The suicide rate is another matter. That would also make for a very interesting study. Especially a measure of the rate of suicide during the 1976 thru 1983-84 period as compared to the general population. I would be willing to bet that the rate of suicide WAS significantly higher than the general population! Mainly that the dogma of the cult was so incrediably destructive during this time period and did seem to attract it's fair share of unbalanced people.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:17:20 (GMT) From: O Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

This is typical.By second guessing the results of a study you will never have to do you not only don't have to go through the effort,but you get the negative 'results' you wanted. Then typically your fellow hens in the barnyard chirp in with a chorus of agreement,and lo and behold….it becomes part of the ex-premie belief system. I hope you don't take yourself too seriously Tonette because quite frankly…..you're a joke.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 07:06:28 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Tonette Subject: premie 's kids Message:

Hi Tonette, I find the subject of premie's children interesting too. I have a couple of them myself. My 2 boys have been surrounded by Maha and other types of spiritual stuff for their whole lives , until recently. They've never been pushed into anything but they've heard Maha's videos being played and listened to lots of discussions about pathways to realisation. They're now teenagers . My eldest son on once catching a little of a Maha video on the way through the room made a comment something like this 'You must kill the President. I am taking over the world. You must kill the president ' which he said in a robotic voice. It cracked me up laughing. My youngest son said one day ' Well if there is a God he must be a complete asshole ' They've never shown any inclination to seek for The BIG TRUTH but they do show a keen interest in seeking for and weeding out bullshit. I don't know any children who were raised in a really bad environment although they were probably affected by being usurped by Maha as the main attraction. The now young adult ones who I know are the most fantastic people. Only one of them has received knowledge. They don't generally seem at all interested in having a guru but they are very much more concerned about the well being of all people and the destruction of the planet. Hal

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:53:03 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Hal Subject: premie 's kids Message:

I have posted this before. I am repeating myself a lot these days because when I first came here I told all my stories. Anyway one of my BIGGEST issues was guilt over my kids and dragging them all over the country to those festivals, usually with no money and awful travel conditions. And yet we have talked a lot the last couple years about it all. They have really good memories of loving premies and lots of attention and FUN!! But they are like your boys, they have NO interest in finding any guru or spiritual trip. So basically they liked the community but were not impressed by M. Just like me! When M ended the ashrams and nightly satsang my interest waned drastically (though I hung on for years out of habit) What this taught me is that I don't really know what they experienced and I assumed the worst. I am so relieved they didn't 'receive knowledge' and start following M around like some of the premie kids their age did after they grew up.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:13:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Curious George Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

What a touching story, Jennifer. It really brings back the flavour of that time in the cult's eralier days. Thanks much. And CG, do I know you? Or, if I do, do I know that I know you?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:35:55 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

Thanks, Jim. I sent an e-mail to you when I first read this site, but I never heard back. Later someone said you were on vacation, so you probably didn't get my e-mail afterall. I'm sorry about your friend Dave. Jenn

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:53:45 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jenn Subject: Try again? Message:

Sorry I missed you, Jenn. Try again? heller@bc1.com

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:59:40 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jenn and all Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

Your journey came across beautifully Jenn. Strong, passionate and yet right to the point at the same time. Ignore Shroom, he would love to say that the M-realated suicides were not influenced by M. I know better! When one's identity is shaky and the supposed lord and source of all isn't helping one damned bit, that is a tough hard thing to take. the mixed up feelings of 'where is my source when I need it?' just don't help. They intensify. You posted that at a very critical time for me actually, with my family stuff hitting high tide right now, and with my grasping with anonymity vs. being for real on here. After the last mix up where someone confused me with 'who cares' I think I don't want anonymity. I wish I knew. It's a bit late anyway. OK Im rambling about me haha enter X with a killer hate line now...... Thank you Jennifer. You can write!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:37:52 (GMT) From: Jennifer aka Jenn Email: None To: Selene Subject: Hi, from Jennifer Message:

I'm glad that people are reading the Journeys. The forum is compelling, but the journeys tell so much. There is another Jennifer who posts on this forum. I am the Jennifer who wrote the Journey. Since the other girl used 'Jennifer' as her forum handle first, I will henceforth post as Jenn when I am here. Selene, Thanks for the compliment on my writing. I've been working on it and it's getting better than it used to be. But sincere thanks for that. I have been wondering about how you are holding up with your family. I just read a thread about your mother here the other day. Keep us informed, if you can. It took me a long time to get around to writing that journey, but it was a good thing to do. My only regret is not having done it sooner. I encourage everyone to write your journey, even if you don't want to put your real name on it. Here is my real name-- Jennifer Carter

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:43:48 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jennifer aka Jenn Subject: one of these days Message:

I will write one. I agree they are compelling. They are what helped me the most at first when I came here. I read them all before I posted, as I was afraid to post at first but after I read the journeys I felt I could post, that I had found people who really understood. I'll keep you informed about mom, most likely in email but I will write something here when I get back. Thanks for caring. Love, Selene

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Date: Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 23:57:02 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Curious George Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

I read Jennifer's Journey, CG, but I don't know how you can blame Maharaji for her aunt's suicide. You don't know what caused her aunt to kill herself. Jennifer didn't know. She said that her aunt was sick in the hospital. Maybe she had an incurable illness, maybe she had mental problems unrelated to her experiences with Maharaji and Knowledge, maybe she had relationship problems or any other number of reasons. I think it's patently unfair to castigate Maharaji and Elan Vital for someone's suicide without knowing all the facts. People commit suicide in every strata of society for any number of reasons. Is it really fair to blame Maharaji when one of the people he gave Knowledge to chooses to end their life?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 20:36:48 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: How much evidence would satisfy you...? Message:

And would you be prepared to go looking for it? There are, in fact, numererous suicide references in the archives. The thing is, Shroom, never mind population norms, given the way 'Knowledge' was always promoted as the ultimate liberation from the burden of our minds, doesn't it even surprise you that ANY premie would commit suicide? Anyway, to save people the retyping, here's a few posts from the archive on the subject from a VERY brief search. I seem to also remember Jim telling of four suicides all occurring in ONE Canadian community. (Is that right Jim?) Shroom, there is no shortage of premie suicides cited in the forum archives if you really wanted to hear some more on the subject. But I don't think you really do, do you? >>> Gail: One older woman in London, who was screwed up for years before receiving K, killed herself afterward circa 1976. Her son used to be my neighbour at the back of 90 Albert Street ashram. After she committed suicide, he was committed to the London Psychiatric Hospital. The premies visited him for a short while and then forgot about him. He ended up jumping off an overpass to the railway tracks below. We read about it in the newspaper. His sister, also a premie, let the community know it was him. She said she could feel him around still and that MJ had taken him 'really high.' Really high alright! I guess that is what MJ meant when he said that we would smash into a million pieces like glass. >>> Joe: This site is really causing some brain neurons to get re-connected. The memories are really coming back. This is one more thing I recall from my Miami days that the suicide discussion brought back. It was sad, but kind of ironically funny in retrospect. At one point (I think it was 1980) DLM did a slick, colorful propogation brochure (8x10) that Maharaj Ji personally wanted and approved. It had glossy pictures of about 4 premies (all very together and good-looking) along with short bios and statments about how much knowledge and following Guru Maharaj Ji meant to them. The brochure also included Maharaj Ji's picture and a short satang by him. The sad and ironic part was that between the time the premies were selected and the brochure came out, one of the 4 premies featured commited suicide. Not a good reflection on his experience in MJ's world would you say? The guy was from South America and I think we actually used the brochure for propogation for a while nevertheless. Ironic, no? >>> Nigel (addressed to GMJ as possible New year resolutions) Perhaps, if you can budge those calorifically-challenged cheeks from their comfortable throne for a minute, you might care to consider the following: I just had a very welcome email from someone who, for good reason, needs to remain anonymous. But you know who I mean, don't you, Prem? - since 'not a leaf stirs' without the Master knowing about it, right? Anyway, this email brought tears to my eyes and left me disturbed, and angry at you, Mr Rawat. It was about a dear family member of theirs who committed suicide (Let's call him 'Norman'). You might also remember ignoring some letters from Norman when he wrote to you, desperate for a little understanding about what he was going through. Y'see, Norman was a very committed premie of yours for many years, but somehow slipped away into a dark depression that eventually led to a savage act of self-destruction. Never, at any stage, did he doubt you were the Lord, and only you could help him. But you didn't help him, did you, Prem? (could you , Prem?) And neither did your 'Grace' help him. Not one official or unofficial representative of your organisation would even go and visit him in those weeks of deterioration that led up to his slashing his wrists. Not one toady even answered Norman mail on your behalf. Neither did you even say 'sorry, Norm, I can't help you, but I know a good doctor who can...' DLM never did go much for the old 'pastoral care' stuff, did it? Perhaps you remember Norman's young children? - the ones that were left behind. The last time the question of suicide was discussed on this forum, one or two people still loyal to you pointed out - reasonably enough, on the face of it - that Christians and Atheists kill themselves too. So who knows whether Norman might not have killed himself anyway. But that simply isn't good enough, is it Prem? And you know why. Do you remember that song 'Never-Ending Well' published by your own organisation (over which you had absolute control ) that used to go: Who can free you from your mind when you live beneath its shadow? Who can show you light divine when there's only darkness here below? Who can make the planets spin and move in cartwheels round the sun? Who can show us that the people living in the world are one? Maharaji can, with his light and love He sends us tidings from above Of a world of bliss where all may dwell His Grace is a never-ending well. Yes, Prem, do you remember the 'crazy mind' that preoccupied you so much in the seventies? The old mortal enemy. Remember that black-and-white cartoon world you created where only two things existed: The Mind and Guru Maharaj ji? How we should sacrifice the one to discover the other? In all the numerous times I came to see you, I don't think there was one occasion when you did not use the phrase 'crazy mind', repeatedly. And yes, my own mind was VERY troubled when I first came under your highly attractive spell, because you, and YOU ALONE posed as the only cure - the 'ANTIDOTE' you called it - for the crazy mind. 'Give ME your mind' you said; 'I EAT mind' you said. 'Surrender the reins of your life' you said, because you would TAKE CARE of us. This is, of course, exactly what a person needs to hear when they are worried about the state of their own mental health, and need to be taken care of. You can tell yourself 'Great, I'm no more crazy than the next person, so let's all be crazy together and Maharaji will deliver us'. But you didn't take such good care of Norman, did you, even though you accepted his financial contributions to burn as gasoline for your E-Type to cruise the Pacific Coast Highway? You never took care of any of your followers, but you quite visibly allowed them to take care of you. Just as they still take care of you today. The most disturbing thing about Norman's story was the fact that Norman might have been me. (The thought of suicide even crossed my own mind shortly before I finally got clear of your poisonous lies. But I got clear, and now take care of myself, with a little help from my friends, and am enjoying life very much, thanks). There have been many premie suicides, as I am sure you realise - so many in fact, I would put money on the incidence within the premie population being two or three times higher than among the population at large. Listen. You don't like this website, do you, Prem? We are a pain and an embarrassment to you. But don't you realise that you could get so many of us off your back just with one small act of contrition? You could start by making a few New Year Resolutions: (1) Admit you are NOT THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Moreover, ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG to ever present yourself as such. Tell your flock that you have NO POWERS. YOU CANNOT MAKE THE PLANETS TURN IN CARTWHEELS, and, come to think of it, CAN'T EVEN TURN A CARTWHEEL YOURSELF. There is NO SUCH THING AS GURU MAHARAJ JI'S GRACE. (2) Say a VERY BIG SORRY for any damage you might have caused. (3) Admit you were DELUDED OR LYING when you claimed 'I AM IN A PERMANENT STATE OF GOD - CONSCIOUSNESS' (4) Admit that whatever your followers feel when they meditate has NOTHING to do with you, and that the 'Knowledge' experience, whatever that might be - IS NOT YOUR GIFT to give. Admit you are as ORDINARY AS THE NEXT AFFLUENT BUSINESSMAN. Admit you are NOBODY, Prem Rawat. Think about it. Mr Rawat, and own up for once in your pathetic self-obsessed little life. Happy New Breath, Hamster, and think yourself lucky that you - unlike many of your ex-followers - still have breath to enjoy.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 17:33:53 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Great post, Nigel....EVERYONE, PLEASE READ....(NT) Message:

NT

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 06:10:00 (GMT) From: Steve Email: None To: Nigel Subject: READ NIGEL'S POST - A MUST !!!!! nt Message:

hh

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:36:12 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Steve Subject: Barney's suicide-factor checklist. .. Message:

Thanks, guys, (Guess I was a bit worked up there...) Just found this archive post from Barney which I think the likes of Shroom should consider (if it fits his own 'reality') >>>> Barney Just wanted to up the ante and put the word suicide in the subject to highlight one of the most dangerous pitfalls of being involved in Maharaji's cult. Anybody who has been involved in the Forum and seen posts involving premies committing suicide. Certainly, Jim's friend comes to mind. Indeed, I was suicidal in the mid to late '70s as I felt a lot of confusion regarding my life. Consider the following items and see if you experienced any of them: - Had burnt many of your bridges to get into and stay in Maharaji's world (eg. family, friends, career) - Had put all your eggs into this one basket and discovered that the basket had some holes - Living in the ashram or were living paycheck to paycheck and festival to festival - an endless cycle of poverty - Told not to bother with Knowledge from College - Told not to bother with a career - Told that everything in this world had to offer was false and would only lead to heartbreak - Told not to be in a relationship or marriage - Told not to have children - Told that problems and obstacles were due to not being surrendered or Maharaji's Lila - Told good things happening were Maharaji's Grace - Told that there was no hope without Maharaji - Told that if you wanted to give back Knowledge to bring 4 strong men to carry away your dead body - Had very limited social skills from years of relating to people in an Us versus Them mode. And then poisoned every conversation with someone without Knowledge while you were waiting to ponce and pontificate about the Lord of the Universe - Defective social skills from suppressing your intelligent and honest responses during completely absurd, inane and insane conversations with premies - You had few, if any, normal outside interests or hobbies - You were not experiencing the promised bliss and attributed it to the fact that you were a worthless human being and had little, if any, chance of realizing knowledge and being happy Sure, a lot of this is and was ancient history and much has changed for the better But, have things changed that much? I'd say that on the surface the message is more subtle and, thus, more palatable. Yet, if you listen to Maharaji and cut through the sugar coating about Enjoying Life you will see that if you are not enjoying life it is for the same reasons that were given in the past: - The World is terrible, evil, false, etc. - You are not trying hard enough - You don't stand a chance in hell without the Master Sure, I probably cannot provide the citations where Maharaji made all such statements Yet, we know that he made a lot of them and he allowed his representatives to travel around and make them. And, to be more than fair and honest, maybe we, the premies, made up them or distored them in our zealousness. However, I really believe that much of what we parroted came down from on high. Yes, one improvement that Maharaji has made is keeping the premies out of the loop is to minimize their crazy input. But, again listen to the message. It is the hard sell message that any salesman will instantly recognize and it starts with showing you that you have a terrible, terrible problem where you are not happy or not happy enough or how crazy is this world. And then the solution is presented to you and the sale is made. And what a perfect product Knowledge is! Perfect for the salesman, that is because you always need more. Once is not enough because the product is defective and falsely advertised. Oh sure, the salesman will insist that you did not install it or operate it correctly and put the blame upon you leaving him an opportunity to allow you to place another order. Also, consider this regarding the classic adage in the show business, always leave them wanting more. An entertainer never stays on stage too long because they know that sooner or later you will be bored and actually begin to dislike them. Who is this long and boring message for? Someone (Bruce) recently flamed the ex-premies saying we were a small group of people that kept repeating the same things over and over again. - How small are we? - How many active premies are lurking and reading these posts? - How many aspirants are lurking and reading these posts? I don't know the answers. But, the real questions to ask are: - How many premies have been suicidal as a result of their involvement with Maharaji? - How many premies are dead because of their involvement? If you are Enjoying Maharaji's Life then fine. But if you are feeling trapped, frustrated and hopeless there's a way out. Start thinking for yourself again and Just say No! No more Jello for me, ma! Ok, now I've done my public service for the day and I can go out and sell some more water filters or maybe I'll go to the university and buy up some textbooks. P.S. The No more Jello for me line comes from the 1986 movie Peggy Sue Got Married emphatically said by Jim Carrey as Walter Getz on the night she cuts loose and smokes marijuana with him.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:27:30 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Barney's suicide-factor checklist. .. Message:

Nigel, thanks for posting that and thanks to Barney for writing it. It is VERY helpful for family members of cult victims to read testimonials like the one above. It helps to make some sense out of the senseless. Even though each situation is unique, all have factors in common. This part said it all: Consider the following items and see if you experienced any of them: - Had burnt many of your bridges to get into and stay in Maharaji's world (eg. family, friends, career) - Had put all your eggs into this one basket and discovered that the basket had some holes - Living in the ashram or were living paycheck to paycheck and festival to festival - an endless cycle of poverty - Told not to bother with Knowledge from College - Told not to bother with a career - Told that everything in this world had to offer was false and would only lead to heartbreak - Told not to be in a relationship or marriage - Told not to have children - Told that problems and obstacles were due to not being surrendered or Maharaji's Lila - Told good things happening were Maharaji's Grace - Told that there was no hope without Maharaji - Told that if you wanted to give back Knowledge to bring 4 strong men to carry away your dead body - Had very limited social skills from years of relating to people in an Us versus Them mode. And then poisoned every conversation with someone without Knowledge while you were waiting to ponce and pontificate about the Lord of the Universe - Defective social skills from suppressing your intelligent and honest responses during completely absurd, inane and insane conversations with premies - You had few, if any, normal outside interests or hobbies - You were not experiencing the promised bliss and attributed it to the fact that you were a worthless human being and had little, if any, chance of realizing knowledge and being happy Sure, a lot of this is and was ancient history and much has changed for the better But, have things changed that much? I'd say that on the surface the message is more subtle and, thus, more palatable. Yet, if you listen to Maharaji and cut through the sugar coating about Enjoying Life you will see that if you are not enjoying life it is for the same reasons that were given in the past: - The World is terrible, evil, false, etc. - You are not trying hard enough - You don't stand a chance in hell without the Master Many thanks, Jenn

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:05:51 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jenn Subject: Barney's suicide-factor checklist. .. Message:

You're welcome, and yeah, I thought Barney's post was great too, Jenn. (Hey, I'm feeling guilty because you're one of the people who emailed me while my computer was in the workshop and web-access was tricky. I'll dig it out and get back soon...)

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:28:28 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: Nigel Subject: No guilt allowed Message:

Hey, you can't help it if your computer is down, right? Half the time I can't keep up with e-mail, even when mine is working :) Thanks again for posting that, Jenn

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:50:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Yes, Vancouver had four or five in 74 / 75 Message:

Let's see. There was Elaine, Nigel, Dave, of course, Greg and then the guy over here in Victoria who jumped out of a window. And of course there were more. In Ottawa there was that other Greg who insisted on living in the ashram. We wouldn't let him and he jumped off a bridge. You'd think DLM or EV might have kept a few records on its precious non-members. On the other hand, why bother? What'd any of us matter besides for service and donations? Oh yeah, we added to the head count -- Over six million ....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:56:59 (GMT) From: Curious George Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

There have been numerous accounts of premie suicides on this forum. Read a few more Journeys and you may be more convinced. What do you think about the child abuse that took place by Jagdeo? And the fact that Mahatmas like Charanand are still covering up for him? What do you think about all the 'fundraising' that's going on these days? I here that the Edinburgh group is almost defunked. Maybe they have had enough of all this 'fundraising' you know what they say about Scots! I know many premies who openly admit they have emotional and mental problems. We all have problems but in my honest opinion and from my experience there is a direct link to 'practicing knowledge' the Maharagi connection/or lack of connection as the case may be, and observing what is going on in with Elan Vital and the PAMS. You aren't blind just look and observe for yourself. As I mentioned it would be good to have statistics but to find out what's true for YOU, INVESTIGATE. As the Dali Lama said 'Spy on your Guru.' Also what did you make of the hammer to the skull incident? Don't tell me M wasn't responsible. He encouraged the Mahatmas to do stuff like that for him. Just like they did for his father, his guru. But make up your own mind....drip......drip.....drip. Best Wishes, Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:18:35 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: What happened to my Aunt Message:

Hi, Shroomanada. I'm not answering this post to convince you of anything. I do feel a responsibility now to attempt to answer your speculations. But I have to do so with a disclaimer of sorts: I don't know the whole story. Even my premie Uncle who lived with her cannot tell the whole story, because even he does not know the whole truth. So how can I know? How can you? I believe that Maharaji is in part responsible for my Aunt's demise. Do I think he is totally responsible? Of course not. He did promise (in those days, anyway) that knowledge was the answer to life's problems. She had problems, don't we all? She was led to believe that Maharaji could make them go away. She was told this by Maharaji and by premies. Her problems did not go away with Maharaji as her lord and this much I know. This is the responsibility that Maharaji owns. She took her own life and of course that was a choice she made. Her other mistake was to believe that there could be an answer to life that was as EASY as knowledge. There is no easy answer to happiness in life. There is no magic pill or technique or elixir to solve our problems. Sitting in a room trying to block out your thoughts may be pleasant and relaxing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. What I am saying is it is not a cure for anything. Running around in a blissed out fog over a guru is not an answer to serious physical or mental problems either. IMO, it's not an answer to anything, but rather an escape. I think (note, I did not say 'I know') that my Aunt tried to escape from the world with Maharaji (he promised this, afterall) and when it didn't work, she took the out. Knowledge was supposed to be so great that it was the answer to living. Instead it took the joy and life out of her. I don't know why and I'm not saying it would be the same for anyone else. I am not sure when the ashrams closed and all that happened, but I think it was close to the time she died. I DO believe that all of this disillusioned her even more. According to family members, she tried to call Maharaji repeatedly when she was ill and did not get any type of response. Apparently she was desperate and left messages that she was dying and couldn't she please speak to him. God, that is so sad to me that she would even want that as a dying wish. She did leave suicide notes asking for at least one person from the family to please see Maharaji. BUT this is not proof that she wasn't disillusioned. It is proof that she was immeshed in something that was for her, very dark. But she was a sweet soul and I loved her, regardless. I feel like my life is better and different for having known her. That's really all I have to say about this and I don't want to get into an argument with you over it.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 23:10:27 (GMT) From: O Email: None To: Jenn Subject: What happened to my Aunt Message:

Jennifer, you said>>>'He did promise (in those days, anyway) that knowledge was the answer to life's problems.' Me>>>That is completely false Jennifer!I challenge you to find where he said that.Quite the opposite,he ALWAYS said it was NOT the answer to life's problems.That is a documented fact.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:33:38 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: O Subject: Will you please show a LITTLE sensitivity here, O! Message:

O, I got very angry reading your post. You are talking to someone who has lost a beloved relative, and who, I imagine, will be hurting over this the rest of her life. The tone of your post was such that it appears that you don't give a damn that Jennifer lost her aunt just as long as Maharaji doesn't get blamed in any part for it. IMHO, and I was around back then, Knowledge was definitely promoted as the answer to life's problems by both M and the premies, although, as Jennifer says, this was not stated as such. Perhaps it would be more definite to say that Knowledge was promoted as the way that you could ESCAPE life's problems (yes, I know this was never said, but it certainly was implied), or not care about them anymore, or whatever. I don't know you at all, O, but from post like the above, it certainly seems like you don't care about anything but M and K. Too bad for you. Sincerely, Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:08:05 (GMT) From: O Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie, you know nothing about sensitivity. Message:

Yes and I was around too Katie and Maharaji used to use the example that it would not make your oranges grow better.Remember Katie?Know what that was meant to demonstrate?....yes, IT WON'T SOLVE ALL YOUR PROBLEMS!!!Sure,a whole lot of premies came to him because they thought it WOULD solve their problems and many of them post here on this forum.I can't vouch for how they got that in their heads.But he was VERY clear that it would not. Damnit Katie how sensitive are you to the fact that when soemone who admittedly was not privy to the real reasons for someone's suicide lays blame where there is none that can be fairly demonstrated.And that the basis for her suppositions is a history she has clearly misrepresented.I feel for her loss Katie I do.But I won't let that be suitable grounds to make baseless claims that hurt other people.Yes,Katie how sensitive are you to the harm of blaming Maharaji for something he is not responsible for?How sensitive are you to the potential of such untruth hurting a premie? Perhaps if you could stop being so pious for a minute and look at it from the other side you too would lobby for fairness over a mob induced rush to judgement.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 02:20:03 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: O Subject: Answer to O Message:

O - You wrote: I feel for her loss Katie I do.But I won't let that be suitable grounds to make baseless claims that hurt other people. OK, O. First, you should know that Jennifer is a very close, long-time friend of mine. AND, as Jennifer has pointed out, she NEVER said that Maharaji was fully responsible for her aunt's suicide. You obviously have not been reading her posts and Journey carefully. Thus, by blasting her with false inferences, you WERE, in my opinion acting with insensitivity. Re 'making your oranges grow' - I agree. Maharaji never claimed Knowledge would solve your WORLDLY problems. However, I think he did make MANY claims it would solve your spiritual problems - otherwise, what the hell is it supposed to do? My experience was (and IS) that premies who suffered extreme mental anguish of any kind tended to blame themselves because they were imperfect and for some reason couldn't get what is promised out of practicing K. I have a premie friend who also committed suicide in 1994. I have NEVER claimed that Maharaji was responsible for his suicide. I have said that I believe that if he had felt comfortable about getting professional help, or doing anything to feel better about himself besides practicing knowledge, I think his suicide could have been prevented. Yet every time I post about him on here, premies say that I am blaming Maharaji. Also, some of them knew my friend, and they take that opportunity to trash him and point out the many reasons why he would have killed himself anyway, or killed himself far earlier in life if he hadn't met Maharaji. This is very hurtful, and I am just talking about a friend here, not a family member who I loved very much. We can never know the reasons why anyone kills themselves, and I know Jennifer agrees with me here. But I think there are factors in anyone's suicide, and I believe that being a premie was a definite factor in Jenn's aunt's suicide. You also wrote: Yes,Katie how sensitive are you to the harm of blaming Maharaji for something he is not responsible for?How sensitive are you to the potential of such untruth hurting a premie? Perhaps if you could stop being so pious for a minute and look at it from the other side you too would lobby for fairness over a mob induced rush to judgement. Personally, O, I really don't care about hurting Maharaji. I think he needs to take a good look at himself and acknowledge the mistakes he's made over the years and sometimes this hurts. If he ever did that I would feel a lot better about him. As far as hurting premies by saying untrue things about Maharaji, again, I refer you to Jennifer's posts and Journey entry. She carefully states what she thinks and feels about her aunt's suicide. She doesn't claim to know the 'truth'. In fact, her posts and Journey are very sensitively written - and were obviously difficult to write. That is why I got angry at you for making all kinds of assumptions about her and her story. Furthermore, I sincerely doubt that the pain you or other premies feel over people saying negative things about Maharaji even comes CLOSE to what Jennifer feels about her aunt's suicide. I cannot believe that you would even compare the two feelings, honestly. And finally, this forum is a place where EX-premies (and others) can write honestly about what they think and feel about Maharaji. Yes, I am sure it hurts premies to read some of what is written here. But it is clearly labeled as an ex-premie forum, and no one is forcing you to read or post here. You are just not going to find sensitivity to premies' feelings about Maharaji here - even from me. Sincerely, Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:46:27 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: O Subject: Read CAREFULLY, O Message:

I did NOT lay unfounded blame. You need to re-read my post. I said Maharaji owns some responsibility for claims he made to his DEVOTEES. He had power over them. I stand behind that. If you read my Journey I said that I did not hold Maharaji responsible for my Aunt's death. I should have said, 'completely responsible.' She chose to follow him and listen to him and believe him. That is the responsibility she owns. Where are my baseless claims? All I did was quote Maharaji himself below. You CHALLENGED me to do this. Maybe you should consider that when you challenge someone to talk about Maharaji, the answers may hurt premies. That was your doing, not mine. I do not want to hurt premies. I stated in my Journey that I LIKE premies. You are completely misrepresenting me. Be nice to Katie, please. She is very sensitive and a good friend who has a serious injury right now. She also has nothing against premies. In my opinion, you are the one who is rushing to mob judgement. YOU are judging US.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 02:25:12 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jenn Subject: Hi Jenn :) Message:

Thanks for sticking up for me, but I don't care if O is nice to me. I don't know him (her?) and he/she doesn't know me, so it really doesn't matter. Also I don't think he/she read my post very carefully - same as yours. Lots of love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 13:52:16 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hi Katie :) Message:

Well, after I posted that, I thought, 'Katie can stick up for herself!' and I know you can :) When I said you were sensitive, I did not mean 'easily offended'. What I meant to say was that you are sensitive to the feelings of other people, which you are. How outrageous that someone would call you insensitive! That is downright silly. Love, Jenn

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 14:38:10 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jenn Subject: Hi Jenn :) Message:

Wow! Your 'Journey' got far more attention than I anticipated. Worried me a bit, but hey! not that much. You can write - and that counts here. Looks like O shot himself in the foot with his reply to Katie. No bad thing that. Is it just me, or is the home-team suffering from random outbreaks of cheerfulness right now? Gotta go and take MrsT plus kids to the fair in our local park. She thinks I'm obsessed ;-)

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 00:25:21 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: O Subject: I read the title and ignored the rest... Message:

You don't know Katie (and none of us knows you, Mr Premie-Anonymous who lurks, snipes and shirks the hard questions) and you have no apparent empathy for anyone, nor reason to be here. 'O' (URL / NIL / &^%&^%??) you are a fucking moron. Bugger off.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:30:34 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks, Katie. I got angry, too. NT Message:

NT

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:36:54 (GMT) From: Jenn Email: None To: O Subject: You are splitting hairs, O Message:

AND you don't listen very well, do you? I said I did not want to argue about this. Maybe he didn't use those exact words, O, but the gist was the same. Everyone here knows what I'm talking about. Maharaji promised something he did NOT deliver to a lot of people. If he did deliver this to you, fine. But he did not deliver this to my Aunt. You asked for quotes, here are a few. Maharaji's own words: 'Confusion is for those who don't know this knowledge. But once a man has known this knowledge, he has nothing to be confused about.' 'If you come to me with a guileless heart, you will surely receive this most ancient spiritual Knowledge, which, if practiced upon, will give us perfect peace of mind 'Today people want love. I can truly and sincerely tell you that this knowledge is overbrimmed with love. I can't explain how much love it contains. There is so much love that if you take the water of all the seas, the love will still be more. If we take every human man's weight, add it, then we add the love of this love, this Knowledge will be much bigger than any man's weight. And this Knowledge is love. This is it. This is the love. A theif cannot take it from you, this love is so much. Nobody can cut this love. You can experience it whenever you like.' '...where has our love gone? Where does our love go? We know that your love should always be constant. But it isn't. That's why there are so many opposites, that's why people are so confused. They go into their churches and marry, and tomorrow they divorce each other. Because the love that we do externally is not constant. External things are not constant. But always when the true master has come, he has guided the people and shown them the true light and told them to follow the true light. Then only can you reach the true destination that you ought to reach.' 'In this world, everywhere is darkness. You can only get white glasses by knowing that white, bright, shining Light. So if you go to Him, ask. Ask and it shall be given, knock and it shall be opened to you. So if you have asked for Knowledge, very good. Other wise, if you know the Knowledge, go ahead and meditate. This is the only thing which increases your love. And love increases you and makes you one with whom you have to be.' 'It is so beautiful, it is so fantastic to be one with one who is perfect, because you are your own no more, no more are there weights on you hands, no more are there weights on your shoulders, there is no burden to carry, no weight on your hands to carry, you are free.'

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:35:44 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Jenn Subject: What happened to my Aunt Message:

I think the abandonment of premies by M and his minions cannot be underestimated in its impact on the lives of premies like Jenn's aunt. Because we were encouraged (back then) to sever ties to our family and friends, we premies were freeze-dried and vacuum-packed in M's world, fostering an isolation which would be dangerous to even the most healthy person's psyche, never mind the impact on a more fragile person. Perhaps Jenn's aunt was fragile to begin with, but I think we need to consider the possibility that the dependence which she, and most of us, had upon M, and which was fostered and encouraged by M, could produce an emotional and psychological fragility which might not have been present in the first place. I've told this story before, but I will reiterate it to underscore the importance of what happened to Jenn's aunt, and to emphasize that abandonment by M was not uncommon. I had a friend who was an extremely devoted ashram premie, and who was a Community Coordinator (or General Sect'y/DUO Director as they were called then) in a large city. He developed Multiple Sclerosis and was asked to leave the ashram because of his illness. He was offered no severance money to help him set himself up, nor any other type of assistance. Getting top notch care is vital in the early stages of MS because good care can slow the onset of more serious symptoms and can determine the tenor of the progression of the disease and, therefore, the quality of life. As I said, he received no help. I offered to help him do the labyrinthine paperwork necessary for getting public assistance for his medical care and other necessities. He was in particulary dire straits because he had no resources, and because of his social isolation, really had no 'outside' friends upon whom he could rely on for assistance. I contacted one of M's top echelon people to ask for help for this guy, if only to bridge the gap until his benefits and assistance kicked in, and I was told that M was not here to help 'sick' people. When I mentioned that this person had dedicated years of his life to M, and surely some help could be eked out temporarily, I was told, 'Sorry, no, that is not M's role.' I had already hit the brick wall with regard to M because of the arctic manner in which I had been treated when I was in dire need myself, and I had been asking only for emotional support, not monetary or physical support. Needless to say, this cold and callous treatment toward my friend severed for eternity the emotional umbilical cord I had attached to M over the years of my involvement. Harder to cut was, and is, the social web I had spun. All of this is to say, I guess, that given the atmosphere of emotional dependence and social isolation prevalent in many premies' lives at that time, especially as it was fostered by M, M's immense responsibility toward his premies cannot be ignored, minimized, or swept under the rug. Jenn, thank you for your articulate and touching telling of your Aunt's story.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 04:39:18 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Monmot Subject: IMO Monmot, , this MS story needs publicity nt Message:

dsfsdg

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 03:39:51 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Hal Subject: Publicity Message:

An effective way to spread a document is to put the following copyright notice on it:- Copyright year name Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article are permitted in any medium provided this notice is preserved. The author keeps control of their words - but the article may be freely distributed among interested parties. I've done this with a couple of my efforts (J'accuse and Special K) so that anyone who wants to use them can do so, without formality; but the integrity of the work is preserved (a person cannot bowlderise it or pervert its meaning with alterations). I'm indebted to cq for the title Special K; and to Richard Stallman for this form of copyright notice.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:47:04 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jenn Subject: What happened to my Aunt Message:

Thanks, Jenn, both for your journeys post and now taking the trouble to make such a detailed reply to Shroom which he really didn't deserve. I find it interesting that Shroom won't even consider the possibility that M could ever be culpable for anything bad that happens around him, or the consequences of his 'Lord of the Universe'/'surrender the reins' phase. I also remember at my Knowledge session, David Smith claiming that K was the best cure for all mental problems. (Did M tell him to say this? - Perhaps not, but by demanding total devotion whilst talking about destroying the mind, he certainly invited that conclusion and dissuaded those who needed medical help to look elsewhere for it... For that much, Maharaji most certainly is responsible.) I know from our emails that you have good reason to place more of the blame at M's door than you have really let on here. And if Shroom can claim that you ultimately 'don't know', well... how much less does Shroom know? is all I can say. Yet he speaks with this blithely insensitive confidence in his Master that I find repulsive. (BTW, Jenn: nice to see you 'come out' at last. Bet it feels good, heh?)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 17:55:11 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Nigel Subject: ps... assuming you ARE the same Jennifer Message:

(it would be quite a coincidence if you weren't the Jennifer I have spoken to, but just possible, I guess! ;-)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:24:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: How about Dave Wener, Shroom? Message:

What about a guy who I knew long before k, who turned me on to it in fact, who started to worry that he couldn't keep his doubts at bay in early '74. That was his only concern. He was a completely into it ashram premie. All he cared about was 'realizing k' which, if you recall, was all we were supposed to care about then. He loved and worshipped m as bet he could, just like the rest of us. Wrote songs for satsang, gave beautiful satsang, did nothing but s, s and m. You know, the whole nine yards. Anyway, he hung himself because he was so freaked out by 'Mr. Mind'. I know because, as I've so often said, he came and saw me the day before begging for help. All I could do, of course, was give him satsang. Mind you, that was exactly the help he wanted. He wanted help getting his mind to back off. Maharaji was the Lord, he knew it and he wanted nothing to stand in the way of his devotion. Fuck you, Shroom.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 00:37:36 (GMT) From: Curious George Email: None To: Shroomananda Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

Dear Shroomananda, Forgive me. But there is a very high suicide rate within this group/cult. And these are only the ones we know about. I am very concerned that everything is made to look rosy on the outside of this group/cult. It would be much better and healthier if people in this cult/group were more open and more honest. I know the first Western Mahatma Saphlanand had severe mental problems after which he was brushed under the carpet. Now Glen mentions him endearingly but no-one in this 'compassionate' group/cult ever tried to help him. Then there was another Scottish premie who died of a heroin overdose. I could think of no one more devoted to M than him and I expect M didn't know anything about his death. Sorry to rain on your parade, Shroo. It would be great if we could get some actual statistics. I bet nearly every single premie knows of at least one premie suicide. I know Knowledge is pretty great but that doesn't mean you have to avoid looking at what's really happening in the 'real world' of Knowledge. Regards, Curious George

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 02:05:08 (GMT) From: Shroomananda Email: None To: Curious George Subject: Jennifers Journey Message:

Curious George wrote: Forgive me. But there is a very high suicide rate within this group/cult. And these are only the ones we know about. Shroomananda responds: Look, Curious George, I feel your angst but I must ask you how you can make statements like this. How do you know that there is a very high suicide rate with people who have received Knowledge? Is this your opinion or is it based on facts? I feel like you're making unsubstantiated claims here. I don't know what the suicide rate is for the general population and I also don't know what the suicide rate is for people who have received Knowledge. Do you? If not, how can you make the statement that 'there is a very high suicide rate within this group/cult'. I am not trying to defend anyone or anything here. I am interested in the truth. Do you have any figures to back this up with? Curious George wrote: I am very concerned that everything is made to look rosy on the outside of this group/cult. It would be much better and healthier if people in this cult/group were more open and more honest. Shroomananda responds: Here again I would like to ask you about your statement that 'It would be much better and healthier if people in this cult/group were more open and more honest'. What people are you talking about? The people who still practice Knowledge and enjoy listening to Maharaji? If so, isn't this a gross generalization? I know many honest and open people who practice Knowledge and listen to Maharaji. I also know some scumballs, idiots and robots who aren't open and honest. But to imply that everyone who still enjoys listening to Maharaji and practicing Knowledge need to be more open and more honest is unfair and a gross exaggeration. Curious George wrote: I know the first Western Mahatma Saphlanand had severe mental problems after which he was brushed under the carpet. Now Glen mentions him endearingly but no-one in this 'compassionate' group/cult ever tried to help him. Shroomananda responds: I don't know Saphlanand's story other than what I read in 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' Could you please elaborate here? How was he 'brushed under the carpet'? How do you know that no one tried to help him if he did have mental problems? I'm interested in the truth. Can you provide any specifics? Curious George wrote: Then there was another Scottish premie who died of a heroin overdose. I could think of no one more devoted to M than him and I expect M didn't know anything about his death. Shroomananda responds: Are you blaming Maharaji here? Is he supposed to be aware of the circumstances of all the people he's given Knowledge to? What are you saying here? That he is callous and unfeeling? I don't understand. Please clarify. Curious George wrote: Sorry to rain on your parade, Shroo. It would be great if we could get some actual statistics. I bet nearly every single premie knows of at least one premie suicide. Shroomananda responds: You aren't raining on my parade. I'm interested in truth. I would love some actual statistics. I've never heard of a single person who has received Knowledge and then committed suicide. Except what Jim Heller wrote about his friend who hung himself. Are you implying that Maharaji and his gift of Knowledge are causing people to commit suicide? Please name me a group, profession or cult that hasn't had someone commit suicide. Curious George wrote: I know Knowledge is pretty great but that doesn't mean you have to avoid looking at what's really happening in the 'real world' of Knowledge. Shroomananda responds: I know that Knowledge is pretty great. Why does that mean that I'm avoiding looking at what's really happening in the 'real world'? I don't get it. Please tell me what I'm avoiding. Regards, Shroomananda