Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:56:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael, would you please answer something? Message:

Michael, Down below you can read this debate between mainly Gerry and others over your current feelings about Maharaji. I read your post and it speaks clearly enough to me in that respect. Your obvious disgust at Maharaji's 'profligate lifestyle' says it all. But then maybe that's because I'm reading something into your comments that Gerry isn't. See, I just naturally assume that you attribute full responsibility to Maharaji for all of the 'utterly shameful' lies and 'hogwash' that EV is disseminating these days. So here's my question: you do blame Maharaji for EV's FAQs and other lies, don't you? I just have to assume that you, of all people, know that, at least as far as cult public relations go, especially on this level, 'not a leaf moves' without him blowing on it. I'm right in assuming that, aren't I?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:25:16 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: None To: Jim Subject: Michael, would you please answer something? Message:

Jim, I said 'As it now stands, Élan Vital’s FAQ’s, and Maharaji’s implicit endorsement of them...' I think that answers your question. Michael

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:40:42 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Oh, sorry. Excuse me for asking ..... Message:

Come on, Michael. I'm not stupid and I can read. Obviously you said what you said earlier. I got that. But I'm asking for some clarification. I'd say that by 'implicit endorsement' you ARE holding him responsible for the 'shameless lies'. But why can't you just out and say it when asked? Can't you see how some might perceive a touch of wiggle room there?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:55:26 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh, sorry. Excuse me for asking ..... Message:

Jim, I know your are not stupid. And yes, I do hold him responsible for the 'shameless lies'. I thought I was clear on this point. I simply presumed that Maharaji didn't write the FAQ's himself but was absolutely certain they wouldn't have been published without his approval. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:27:20 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Do you ever regret signing the non-disclosure Message:

agreement?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:58:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks, Mike -- now I can go to jail Message:

I was waiting for your answer. Now I can pick up Laurie, who's waiting at her office, and I can run out to the jail to see a few clients. She'll wait outside, reading, then we'll go for a walk. It's a beautiful, bright, crisp fall day here. And none of this would have been possible without your help, Michael. So there, Roger and Gerry! :)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:05:53 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Hope you get mugged, Jim! Asshole! Message:

Sheesh. Now, I've got EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE jumping out of the woodwork to kick my ass. FUCK EVERYBODY! FUCK EVERYBODY WHO IS A GOOD PERSON. I AM THE BAD PERSON HERE AND I AM PROUD OF IT!

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Date: Fri, Oct 13, 2000 at 04:04:23 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: everyone?-nt Message:

fgnhsd

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:10:56 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Roger eDrek Subject: before you get mugged Jim, make sure Ms. L is safe Message:

Jim, while you are getting mugged by those Victorian bad guys, please make sure that Ms. L. is out of harm's way.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:08:43 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: I asked this yesterday as well Message:

Michael did mention M's implicit involvement in the EV site. I suspect that is as much of an answer as we'll get.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:24:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: Yes, Selene, you're right ... MICHAEL??????????? Message:

Yeah, your'e right. He said: As it now stands, Élan Vital’s FAQ’s, and Maharaji’s implicit endorsement of them, are utterly shameful in that they denigrate the love and devotion that many people expressed with their hearts and their lives and their pocketbooks for years. So, please, Michael, how in the world can you reconcile this fact with your earlier acclaim of him in the present tense<> as a 'teacher'? Also, while we're at it, I just have to ask you about this last part of your post: As I said in a previous post, I made certain choices in my life and I recognize and accept that all of our choices have consequences. I, and no one else, am responsible for the choices I make and the consequences that ensue. Aren't you aware of the fact that, in law at least (and I would argue in life in general), fraud vitiates consent? What's wrong? Don't you agree with this principle? In this particular context, given the role you played in this cult, that close of yours is very, very hard to digest. Think about it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:39:59 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, and psychic too I guess Message:

yikes

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:25:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sorry, forgetting to close my HTML recently (nt) Message:

ffff

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:03:01 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Do it twice next time (nt) Message:

tttt

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:02:27 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: No hard feeling, I hope... Message:

I love New-York in June. How about you?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:31:25 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Yves Subject: That is all you're getting till next spring Message:

In the mean while, you know what to do.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:33:41 (GMT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hi Michael. Message:

Hi Michael, Thanks for a great, meaty post. I know it takes guts for someone who was in your position to come out and discuss your involvement in the cult, especially in this cesspit of hate, confusion and bitterness that is our forum. It's great that you have shared some facts with us. Information is an incredibly powerful thing. I can also appreciate how having got to know Maharaji and his family personally, only adds to the confusion when you start to extract yourself from the years of programming we went through, and participated in, during our cult years. Did you have a sort of defining moment when you turned around and said, 'Shit. This is a cult?' There are a couple of general points I picked up on in your post. You say you weren't involved in anything illegal, although some would question the ethics of what was happening. One glaring ethical fault with the cult seems to be how it uses charitable status, and a network of companies run by PAMs, to channel millions of tax free dollars to support Maharaji's lifestyle. Another point is the 'Perfect Master' thing. If you look at Maharaji's personal website, it's obvious he still believes in the 'succession of Perfect Masters', and the premies around him still treat him in exactly the same way as they did when DLM posters were proclaiming, 'God is great but Guru is greater'. I think there's an idealogical crisis going on in the cult on this point. Anyway, welcome to the madhouse that is the forum, and don't leave your gun in the car. Take care Anth the lost in Holland

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:29:43 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Michael Dettmers: To my knowledge, Maharaj Ji never used the word 'god' to describe himself... That's an extraordinary claim. You know Rawat never claimed to be God? I have to say that strikes me an extraordinary thing to say. Even if you really meant As far as I know.... What is that sound? Could it be a tangled skein unravelling? REPOST of Cult Busters Anonymous' letter to Rawat To Mr Rawat, I represent a small group of Christian-minded people who are very concerned about your activities and your connection to the Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre ( IRCC ). We believe you are a fraud, deceiving many thousands of people. Our mission is to prevent you from continuing the deception by exposing and embarrassing you until you decide to retire. We were recently introduced to www.ex-premie.org and have spent many hours reading the documents, testimonials and quotes from your discourses. We challenge you to explain the following quote. Why did you say? “Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma( Creator ). Guru Maharaj Ji is Vishnu ( Operator ). Guru Maharaji is Shiva ( Destroyer of illusion and ego ). And above all, Guru Maharaji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come , the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven’t heard of Guru Maharaji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now it’s your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth…” For many years, it appears you played God to a gullible audience. The evidence is irrefutable. You continue to play God to those closest to you and demand all the privileges of the God you pretend to be. All this is kept from aspirants. They have no idea what they are buying into and you know it. What offends our group is that you deceive many well meaning sincere people who are searching for a profound spiritual experience. We find this kind of deception particularly obnoxious. We realise we can’t hope to influence the opinions of many of your committed followers. Instead, we intend to embarrass you into selling IRCC and retiring from public life, thus saving aspirants from the cult and giving followers an opportunity to live their own lives. Our plan is to distribute material that includes some of the offending quotes and information from the ex-premie site. Enclosed are samples that will be used at our discretion. Letters will be sent to media, local authorities and religious leaders on an ongoing basis until we achieve our objectives. Your game is up. Your mistakes have caught up with you. Your dishonest deception of hundreds of thousands of sincere people is at an end. In the next few months you will be exposed, ridiculed and embarrassed by your own words and actions. This is no idle threat. Be warned. Sell IRCC immediately and get out of Australia. Either way our dedicated group of cult busters will bust you. This is only stage one of our strategy. It will be publicised and discussed on the web. We are confident that may of your former victims will spread the word throughout the world. Our group is saddened by the inevitable pain, anger and confusion our actions will cause many of your followers, who will undoubtably continue to believe you are their master and reject outright the suggestion that they have been brainwashed. To those followers who read this letter we would like to say we believe you are innocent victims of a belief system that doesn’t allow you to question, criticize or call Mr Rawat to account. He has eroded your ability to discriminate. Surely wisdom comes from experience of life and the ability to become more and more discerning and perceptive. What kind of teacher discourages these qualities whilst demanding total subservience?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:18:31 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: JohnT Subject: More of Rawat's claims Message:

Some more stuff the good Deacon missed... “…Surrender the reins of you life unto me and I will give you such peace as will never die. Come to me, and I will give you liberation. Place the reins of your life in my hands, and I will relieve you of your suffering. First, be capable of giving the reins of your life to me, then give them. And if I do not give you peace, I will give them back to you…” “…The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers. Accept my words, accept me. I will give you Knowledge. If you mistake my meaning, if you mistake a single word of what I am saying, I will not forgive you…” “I declare that I will establish peace in this world. Just give me the reins and let me rule and I will rule in such a way that even Rama, Hariscandra, Krishna and other kings could not have ruled like that! That day is fast approaching. So arise, awake, open the ears of each man and tell him the time has come!” “…By yourself, you cannot do anything, but I can do everything…” “…I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell…” “…I’m the light that allows you to see me…” “ …People who consider Guru Maharaj Ji something else are definitely bound to hell. There’s no ifs and buts about it…” “…A devotee will follow their Guru Maharaj Ji wherever Guru Maharaj Ji goes and not be involved in anything else…” “…If you don’t practise this Knowledge, you will get rotten inside. There is so much energy contained in this Knowledge, just imagine how much harm it will be able to do you if you know it, but do not use it properly…” “…Everything depends on me. Not even a leaf moves a millimetre without my wish…” “…So obey my command, or else you will be drowned…” Most of these quotes are pre 1990. Some date from 1973 when he first arrived in the west at the age of 13. In the mid 80’s he recalled all incriminating magazines and videos in an attempt to cover up his claims to divinity. Although he still claims to be God in India, where he has a strong following, he now presents himself as a teacher with an exclusive gift called ‘Knowledge’. Yet to his closest followers he is still God.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:20:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Yeah, Mike, John's right Message:

That was a bit generous on your part, I think. This site alone is full of all the quotes wherein Maharaji most certainly not just asserted his divinity indirectly but came right out and just, plain called himself 'God'. Haven't you read them? They're all on the DLM / EV Papers section. Here, for example, is just the first entry, the Hamster's signed introduction to 'And it is Divine': Dear Reader, By the grace of Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And It Is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity. There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and spread the True Knowledge. But history is a pendulum which is always in swing. There have been so many scriptures, but still people have never been able to understand Him. Divine Light Mission wants to bring world peace by sharing the Knowledge which is within us by the grace of Almighty Lord. In this magazine, we hope to give information about the peace which lives within us, which Guru Maharaj Ji reveals. Sant Ji Maharaj (Guru Maharaj Ji's preface for the DLM magazine 'And It Is Divine' published in the 70's and early 80's) Hm.... on second thought, as obvious as that is, that only counts as an indirect claim. But how about this one: 'Do you need me? I am with you. You can't see me, though I'm the light that allows you too see me. You can't hear me though I talk through your voice. You can't feel me, though I'm the power that works in your hands. I'm working within you though you ignore my paths. I'm working though you don't recognize my work. I'm not a strange vision. I'm not a mystery - only in absolute silence beyond the personality that you seem to be; and then only like a feeling and like faith. Still I'm with you, still I hear you, still I can answer you. When you need me, I'm with you and I help you. In the moments in which you think you only find yourself, I'm with you. Even in your fears. Even in your pain, even when you meditate and when you don't meditate. I'm within you and you're within me. Only in your mind are the problems of 'mine' and 'yours', but still only with your mind you can know and perceive me. Empty your heart of ignorant fears because apart from your personality, in between, I will be with you. By yourself, you cannot do anything, but I can do everything. Though you cannot see the good - The good is there. Because I am there, because I have to be, because I am everything. Only in me the world has meaning. Only when you are in me, the world will take it's true shape. Only because I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell. I am the love that is the fulfillment of the law; I am safety; I am your peace; I am everything. Though you fail finding me, I never fail finding you. Though your faith in me is insecure, my faith in you never vanishes. Though you give your faith and love senselessly to others, My love is only for you, because I know you, because I love you.' (Guru Maharaji Ji, Speaking to IDP Group - February, 1982) Check out the year. Were you there at that meeting? What were you thinking when he said this? Interesting, isn't it?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:09:47 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'I am everything.' Nuff said. (nt) Message:

tttt

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 14:30:42 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: JohnT Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Hi John T Where did you find following quote: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma( Creator ). Guru Maharaj Ji is Vishnu ( Operator ). Guru Maharaji is Shiva ( Destroyer of illusion and ego ). And above all, Guru Maharaji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come , the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven’t heard of Guru Maharaji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now it’s your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth…” To me it sounds fake .i.e. misspelling inconsequent words unlike maharajis way to express him self.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:12:33 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn - you have... Message:

...memory problems. Please, somebody, give this guy the chapter and verse on this quote!

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:51:12 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Way Subject: Way - seems like more people have... Message:

memory problems. Including John T and Michael Dettmers,

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:25:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Don't make a fool of yourself, Bjorn Message:

That quote -- which you can find amongst several others just like it over on the 'EV / DLM Papers' section of this site, thanks to JM -- comes straight out of Maharaji's satsangs as transcribed into his 'official, authorized' biography 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?' Bjorn, don't know if you're a big Kenny Rogers fan (most of us are) but, may I remind you: You gotta know when to hold 'em, Know when to fold 'em You don't have any cards to play on this one, fella. Better go stick your thumbs in your ears or something.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:10:36 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Jim Subject: So then make a fool out of me, Jim Message:

Hi Jim I have read a lot of times here at the Forum you and others say that Maharaji several times has said 'I am God', It is even been suggested that PWK were brainwashed to believe so by Maharaji. I flipped through the 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' book. in search for this quote that John T refers to. And which you claim to be found in this particular book. So far I was unable to find it. So I beg you, please could you help me to find this quote and tell me which page this is written' By the way, in my copy, on page 27 there is an marked quote regarding receiving Knowledge. It goes like this: Receiving Knowledge '-Guru Maharaji, are you God? -No, my Knowledge is God.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:31:57 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: 'I am Everything.' Nuff said. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 09:45:40 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Thank you very much Michael. You have contributed for me and others in a way that is profoundly helpful. I feel you speak out for all those who are fair minded and who seek a perspective that is balanced and honest. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with every point you make. But rather the open and sincere tone that emanates through your words. Thankyou again. Keith.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:31:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: No, Kieth, that's lame Message:

Sorry, Kieth, but aren't you the guy who's posted for years here on and off but who can't quite find a logical thread if it were wrapped around your finger? It is a matter of what you agree with and what you don't, dude. That's the engine. Tone is just the oil. Mind you, if I recall, your new age world doesn't really include 'truth' as such, right? It's more like 'truth for you' or 'truth for me', that kind of thing. Hey, this always killed me. Do you new age guys still talk about 'information' all the time, as in 'I received this information when I was channelling Zorg ....' I used to love that. No one cares about reality in that world, it's all just whatever. Sorry, Kieth, you gotta try a little harder than that. Nice tone to your post, by the way. Very, very nice indeed.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 03:15:17 (GMT) From: LA-EX Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments:THANK YOU! Message:

Dear Michael-let me start by stating that I really do appreciate your post,and I enjoyed our other communications as well. I have felt badly about the treatment that you have received at times on this forum,because I feel it has been for the most part totally unwarranted; I feel that much of that anger is really directed at maharaji,for many justifiable reasons.Unfortunately you have been the target of much of it,as well as 'conspiracy theory' types of posts and general negativity at times. So,thanks again for having the courage to come back and explain things.This recent post does clear up some things for me,and I'm sure it does for others as well,including yourself. I would like to express something here,or propose something here that we touched on before.If you would like to comment, it would be greatly appreciated by me and hopefully others as well. It might lead to productive discussions about things that can be done to bring closure to some of these issues that have affected so many thousands of people all over the world. 'Are there any unresolved issues from the past regarding maharaji' and if so 'what can be done about them' were two of the questions that I raised months ago.I remember that you agreed that there were, and that there should be some way to address these issues.How about a discussion,a civil discussion,that addresses this?Something that could be sent to ELK,or maharaji (or his wife),that is done in such a professional,honest and sincere way,that it could not be labeled as wierd,negative,in the past or whatever...Something that could only be perceived as sincere,and that NO response from maharaji would be unacceptable,because it would show that he does not want to engage in serious and sincere discussion of these important issues.I think the MRC letter was a good start,but would need to go deeper and address the issues in a more substantial way. I think the MRC letter had a big effect, a very big effect on maharaji,judging from the history,and much of it revisionist(which anyone from the old days would instantly recognize), that was subsequently put on the ELK site.Do you think there is a way to reach maharaji?I'm talking very sincerely now.I think he knows that he's in trouble now;there has never been anything like this internet site before,and it is growing daily.Premies are dropping away,or taking a big step back to re-assess.Money is down,so secret meetings (fundraisers) with maharaji are in vogue.I think he feels threatened by it,but of course, you will never hear that from the people around him.I look at the premies where I live;they are actually still trying to spread knowledge and are in the process of inviting maharaji to their town!None of these sincere,but unaware people know the damaging information on this site,most of which I totally believe to be true.What will their reaction be when the man they promote and try to entice people into following,when his secret life is exposed?How damaging will that be to them?Yorum Weiss,one year ago, was telling premies to ask their corporations to make tax-deductible donations to EV.Let's say you work for IBM.You are new there,and a new premie as well.You ask your boss if the corporation will donate money to EV.He checks it out.He comes to this site.What happens to you?Your career,family,mortgage?Yorum also asked premies to consider giving stock to maharaji.Can you believe it? But I do think there is a way out,and I still think you could play a part.Why?Because you,unlike me,and most of us,were in a special and unique position for well over a decade with maharaji,and would simply have more credibility and impact than any of us could ever have.You could be the peacemaker,and I really mean this sincerely,not in some manipulative way to goad you into action that might please your ego.I think there is a way to do this in which everyone gains,but also has to give as well.For starters,ex-premies might have to give up their desire for revenge towards maharaji.Their anger and frustration is totally understood and acceptable,but maybe they would have to give up the lust for revenge.How could that happen?Maybe if maharaji (and I believe this is a BIG stretch)gave up his deception.Maybe if he really levelled with us,like it seems he did with you in the 80's,we could see him as a vulnerable,sometimes confused,thoroughly human being.If he would tell the truth,maybe we would see him differently.I'm sure you have experienced this with someone;you hold a grudge against them, maybe even hate them,but then one day they just level with you,they tell you about the pain or confusion they are in,and your whole attitude changes.You can let go of some of the hatred or animosity and see them for who they are.Couldn't it be the same here?Granted, the stakes are higher, the probability of success smaller,but is there any other way that makes sense?I have been greatly influenced by the teachings and life stories of MLK Jr. and Gandhi-even at the height of devotion, they were always my heroes,not maharaji.(Now, I don't know how I could have even thought he would have been in the same class.) I too have been called aloof,distant at times,yet I know that life is a constant path of growth and discovery.I used to think I was a human being trying to become a spiritual being,trying to reach some sort of mystical state of spiritual consciousness and maharaji seemed to be the way.Now I am quite content to know that I already am a spiritual being,and am just trying to have a human experience.These feelings we have are deep and powerful and they are there for a reason.I think they are in maharaji as well.I think they need to be expressed,or they become toxic. I believe there is a way to begin to heal this,although I'm not sure it will likely happen from maharaji's side. But I'm willing to try.I'm willing to chance it.I'd like to know if you are as well.It's worth the effort,it's worth the chance.Everyone could be helped,no one would be hurt, and I still think you are the best man for the job.If nothing else,it would be an adventure, a learning experience...I don't want to live, or die, with any regrets about things I never did or things I never said...that's why my heroes are the two men I mentioned...courage,honesty,standing up for what's true...listening to the still,small voice within... Something to think about. (Sorry to go on for so long.) Thanks again for posting. Your friend, LA-EX

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:10:01 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Oh this all sounds real nice Message:

but not at all tidy. You contradict yourself repeately. I would thank you for your post if only you were willing to do the right thing after all these years. It takes courage to face the music for what was and still is morally wrong. But your stance and spin leaves me wondering how deeply you would be implicated if M ever had to face the music for all the money he stole from his devotees, restitution for the damaged lives, abuse of his tax-exempt status, ect. You sound a little afraid. Hoping that by posting here you will placate us and maybe we'll go away or shut up?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:11:55 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Tonette Subject: What do you mean Message:

by the statement: 'You contradict yourself repeately?'

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:05:45 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Well ,you certainly are a lucky fucker Mike , seems like you got out intact. Not only that , you managed to turn your experience to your own advantage ,& why not indeed. Your 7 year study into the 'ontology of language' would have been eased greatly by your previous experience of 'giving satsang' , & as for the 'discipline of somatics' , I'm not too clear about what that might be , but suspect it's got something to do with expressive gestures & grinning at the right moment.   Don't get me wrong , I'm quite good at the bullshit myself , although way out of your league , & am consequently grudgingly admiring of a successful 'artist'. What I didn't get from your communication however , was any clue as how to stop Shitler from conning yet more money from the pockets of trusting souls worldwide.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:18:04 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: I think I hate this guy... Message:

To deal with this crisis, I took two major steps. First, I teamed-up with my brother to form Dettmers Industries Inc. And no, for the last time, this company was not a pay-off nor built with the slave labor of premies. As I fully explained in my post of April 2nd, we started this company from scratch and made it a success through our own efforts and competence. --Dettmers today This case study documents how Michael Dettmers transformed Dettmers Industries Inc., a manufacturer of seating products for the corporate aviation industry, into one of the Best Small Companies to Work for In America according to Inc. magazine. It demonstrates how he successfully organized the entire workforce into performance-based product teams. --from Michael Dettmers website. This wouldn't have anything to do with Deca would it?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:43:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, Have you thought of this? Message:

What if Dettmers and his brother simply jumped in to an industry they had some familiarity with because of their cult involvement? No exploitation, no graft, no expropriation? Maybe I'm missing something but I see that as possible. Don't you? And if that were the case, where's the culpability?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 03:18:17 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim-that IS what happened! Message:

I worked at DECA. I knew Peter Dettmers. He was liked and respected by everyone who knew him or worked with him. He married a good friend of mine. He learned a lot at DECA, as did many people,and put it to use after he left. It's that simple,as far as I can see. La-ex

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 03:23:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Why should I believe you? Message:

Why should I believe you when you don't put any spaces in between sentences in posts like the one to Detmmers above? Huh? I'm telling you -- oh no, but you're special. You're La-Ex! Named after a big, motherfuckign important airport! No, who am I to tell you anything? Well I AM telling you, La-Ex, and I'm telling you right now: it's TWO spaces between sentences. One will do but two is proper. Christ!

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 09:31:19 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why should anyone believe you Jim? Message:

It is the space between your eyes that is really suspect Jim. You hate sincerity in others don't you? You hate being upstaged, don't you? You haven't changed have you? Well done Michael and LA. You Jim. You have flunked again!

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:06:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Keith, why don't you and shp start a website? Message:

Personally, I think it'd be real winner with 'the ladies'. You know, Mili did it and he's catching 'em left, right and centre. Come on, Keith, a couple of swank, new age guys like you. Could put up some stuff from the Brahampapadum, a little tantric art, maybe something about how modern physics completely validates ancient Tiberian cave art, you know. And then you could offer your formidable skills as a tarot-astrology-masseur too. You're a wasted talent, Kieth. I worry about you sometimes.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 04:46:07 (GMT) From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nice! Message:

Jim, at least you still chat to me. How nice. How I miss your clever abuse. How I miss your attention. And your wit? Second to none. If you were only a woman. Especially after all those years of sexual deprivation in the ashram. Bet you are red hot. Alas , I must take what's on offer. Thanks anyway shveetheart. Always your secret admirer from the depths of the new age universe, Keith.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 04:04:34 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jim Subject: Guess what, Jim? That's right. It can't be done. Message:

Unless   you   know   the   magic   spell   normal   mortals   must   be   satisfied   with   single   spaces   between   sentences.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:52:52 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah, it's all just a big coincidence, Message:

and I hope he stole the whole fucking shooting match out from underneath the cult, actually. I'd say there was a good possibility Dettmers indeed exploited the Deca business to his own benefit. What's your theory on how he ended up in the 'corporate aviation seating' business?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:20:07 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Sory, I'm with Susan here Message:

Without some evidence -- ANY evidence -- that Dettmers exploited Deca beyond just the natural skill development he'd get there, I think it's rash and unreasonable to accuse him like this. Speculation isn't proof.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:37:28 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: What accusation? Message:

All I did is ask a question. This wouldn't have anything to do with Deca would it? Consider it an invitation for anyone with more information to come forward.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:49:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: You accusing me of accusing you of accusing him? Message:

Gerry, It's all about how much strong a suspicion, how much proof and all that. But what about the 'benefit of the doubt'? Doesn't that apply here? What if Dettmers is straight up about the business he started? What if there was nothing untoward about it? Don't you acknowledge that as a rela possibility? If so, well, you know .... Seems to me we've done this before. No?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:49:23 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Jim Subject: No! I emphatically deny that I am in denial!! Message:

x

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 07:51:12 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: jim Subject: I suspect you of insinuating the allegations! Message:

x

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:59:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Something like that Message:

Of course it's a possibility. And it's also possible Prem Rawat is a meditation teacher of considerable and deserved esteem. Doesn't he sound just a little bit self-serving and slippery here to you?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 03:16:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Disparate probabilities Message:

Gerry, I'd say that the chance of Maharaji being a meditation teacher of considerable and deserved esteem is very, very, very, very small. Approaching zero really. Do I have any doubt that that is NOT true? None that's reasonable. Applying the old criminal law standard, I'd say 'guilty'. But the chance that Dettmers is telling the truth? Much, much greater. There isn't even enough to 'find him liable', if you will, on a civil standard (balance of probabilities), let alone criminal. So you think he sounds 'just a little bit self-serving and slippery.' So? Where does that go? Do you know Michael at all? Did you know him before Knowledge or even before his rise to the exalted status of right-hand man to a cult leader (Sorry, Mike)? Do you know what he normally sounds like? The guy studied opera for God's sake! Doesn't that mean anything to you? And then he studied ontology ( or something that sounds just like it)! And doesn't that mean something? No, seriously, I don't think you can read as much as you might want to into his voice here. Frankly, he doesn't strike me as 'slick', if you will, this time as last. Look, I'll never forget that Confidentiality Clause hanging over all this. How could I? But, at the same time, I see something different in Dettmers' post today than in prior communications. And what? You don't?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 03:12:36 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: gerry Subject: Come on, gerry. I've almost got this boxed and... Message:

gift wrapped. Never leave room for doubt in your mind. I think that I'll buy the very best bottle of Cognac that I can buy here in Lewiston, Idaho, drink it, and re-read Michael's post. The problem with all of this stuff is it is shrouded in such secrecy that we all become a little too skeptical. And as time marches on we lose the ability to bring forth eye witnesses with accurate accounts. Seems to be by design. A perfect design by the Perfect Master.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:14:07 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: gerry Subject: Deca Message:

My ex husband worked at DECA. He and a whole bunch of the people who worked there ended up moving to Santa Barbara when DECA folded because they now had a unique skill...remodeling jets for the rich and famous. He ended up with a whole bunch of premies working on jets for John Travolta, Adnan Kashogi et al. I am certainly not trying to say that DECA was a job training program any more than the ashrams were Betty Ford clinics...but, some people did 'learn' marketable things while in the cult and have applied these skills to the world at large. Gerry, I find most of your criticism here really ugly. But, it is consistant with how you usually process information. My impression is you have never seen a conspiracy theory you didn't like, so I would be suprised if you dealt with his post any differently than you have. But of course, you have in the past my ally in political debates, so I will later pay for having criticized you when I am stupid enough to voice my minority political viewpoints on the forum. Susan, who you will of course think has naively fallen for a sinister plot.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:03:04 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan, I agree Message:

My best friend's ex-husband has become very wealthy doing work using skills he learned as a 'slave laborer' at DECA. He was a not-very-successful house painter and sometimes carpenter before that - now he travels all over the world refurbishing people's boats for big bucks. As far as I know, he's not a premie anymore, although I think he has gone to a program or two recently. You wrote: I am certainly not trying to say that DECA was a job training program any more than the ashrams were Betty Ford clinics...but, some people did 'learn' marketable things while in the cult and have applied these skills to the world at large. I agree - I think it's possible that far more people were harmed at DECA than helped. But that doesn't change the fact that some people happened to be in the right position to start their own businesses after DECA ended. Take care, Susan - Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:16:43 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Katie Subject: Yes, but keep the perspective..... Message:

I agree that some people may have gained some skills at DECA, or maybe other places in the cult, but I would submit that the vast majority did not, and that DECA really was a slave labor camp. Most of the workers were not paid, and those that were were paid subsistence wages. I was a slave at DECA. I learned nothing 'marketable' there, and I saw a lot of suffering and abuse that went on there, both to the workers and to their families. And if you suggest that people got skills working at DECA, you have to compare that to what they would have been doing were they not at DECA. Perhaps they would have been much more successful doing something else, and they would have had the added advantage of not being slaves in the meantime. They would have also had the advantage of being self-directed people, which is a real value in my opinion. I really hand it to people who, through their own ingenuity and hard work, took what happened at DECA and made something positive out of it, just like many of us are trying to do here. I certainly don't criticize them. But I would also submit that the number of people who learned marketable skills in the cult is TINY in comparison to the number of people who wasted their skills, some for many years, and came out of the cult not better, just older, poorer, and feeling ripped off (those who are lucky enough to have actually come out of it, that is).

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 02:28:00 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: I agree with you Joe! Message:

And that was what I was trying to say. However, in the example I mentioned, I doubt that the guy would have gotten the opportunity if he had not moved to Florida and worked for DECA. Just one of those things.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 02:21:26 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: I've reformed, Susan Subject: Deca Message:

But of course, you have in the past my ally in political debates, so I will later pay for having criticized you when I am stupid enough to voice my minority political viewpoints on the forum. I now hate conseratives as much as liberals... They're all in it together.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:23:43 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: gerry Subject: gerry, do you have the url?like to take a look nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:29:28 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Rob Subject: sure Rob, and be sure to check out this link... Message:

Roger has this creep's number Here the other one you wanted: Mister Slick Rides Again Read 'em and hurl...

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:17:25 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: thanks-what about 100 million in 82? Expense accts Message:

'I had been at the heart of his financial, legal, and aviation operations for more than a decade and he wanted me to continue overseeing them. I began to distance myself even further, however, as Dettmers Industries grew, and as I became increasingly disillusioned with Maharaji’s profligate lifestyle. Putting aside the Boeing 707 in the early 80’s, I thought we had finally come to a reasonable solution to Maharaji’s aviation requirements when, in 1986, we purchased a Lear 55. Shortly thereafter, however, he decided the Lear 55 wasn’t suitable and wanted a Canadair Challenger instead. We managed to secure a used Challenger but within a short time he wanted to upgrade to a brand new Challenger. By now I had had enough, and I’m sure Maharaji had had enough of me. When we agreed to part company, the terms of our contractual Agreement were triggered including its non-disclosure clause. Since leaving, I have heard about the mansion in Malibu, the yacht and the new Gulfstream IV aircraft. It appears that nothing has changed except that the toys keep getting more expensive even though, in my opinion, they have nothing whatsoever to do with his original mission. Or maybe I just never really understood what it meant to bring peace to the world.' -- Michael Dettmers   Dear Michael: 1. Thanks for your letter. 2. Would you please also enlighten us, regarding the -- monthly and yearly EVI cash flow: and the various, proportionate sources/destinations of financial revenues, expenses, assets, and any other related information? Also, any information that would help a lot of people come to their own understanding on the following issues that have been raised, alleged: - abuse of spiritual position? - organizational or individual dishonesty/spin doctoring? - alleged diversion of donations for ever-more exorbitant personal expenses, gifts, or personal assets? - For the calendar/fiscal year 1982 (and 1974-87), would you please elaborate on the essential EVI/DLM line items on the general ledger, accounts receivable, accounts payable, expense accounts, assets, debits, accounts, loans, transfers, etc.? - alleged repeated emotional, guilt-plagued fundraisings r.e. devotees' contributions for projects; and any indirect/direct, resultant M. personal items, gifts, assets, personal usage or control of material/monetary assets? - alleged felonious crimes of associates: sexual assault (Trivinanand), and child abuse(Jagdeo), first degree assault (Fakiranand)? - alleged corporate tax shelters (or benefits) for any individual(s) deriving personal benefit from devotees' contributions, and as might have been established in Seva Corp.'s and Premo Marine's private corporate accounts? - alleged M. personal problems/dysfunctional situations? - anything else you deem to be of utmost importance and relevance to these matters and discoveries? Thanks again. Peace, suchabanana

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:08:38 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Just one more thing...... Message:

Michael yours is one of those posts which bears reading many times. The last such review brought to mind a question regarding the finances at Knowledge Industries Inc aka, well, you know who I mean. I think you made your point loud and clear that, in your opinion at least, all matters financial are being dealt with in a completely legal fashion. Fortunately, my own accountant has recourse to many legal tax anomolies and contrives to save me many thousands of dollars a year in taxes. So we'll agree to keep our tongues pressed firmly in our cheeks, shall we? But the question really isn't about the nitty-gritty of loopholes in the Charitable Exemption laws of this land, rather it concerns the morality of extracting donations out of sincere, deluded persons around the globe in order to support his 'profligate lifestyle'. Forget your *insider information* for a moment Michael, what would you say to the tens of thousands of premies who currently give up their hard-earned cash to this man and his organization? I cannot imagine for a moment this Agreement of yours has in it anything which would violate your First Amendment Rights to express an opinion or offer advice, so how about it?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:51:31 (GMT) From: Steven Quint Email: sequint@home.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Give my regards to Peter. He was my aspirant team leader along with Cecile Boisvert.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:37:28 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

We welcome you here, Michael.We really do value the truth, above all else. none of us likes the taste of falsehood, after waking up to its biting pain. I personally read your posts with rapt absorption,wanting to know what you might bring to the table that will help me, and all of us, make sense of what we gave our lives to, all those years. Hearing your Journey(for that's what it is, and it really should go into the Journeys annals. I encourage you to add yours to the roster, just as you have iterated it to us,here-)provides me with understanding i was intentionally denied when i needed it in crisis. I urge you to contemplate the various criticisms posed you here. Life takes courage. I learned, in the course of my healing, that secrecy is toxic, that bringing things into the light of day is cleansing and liberating, at all levels. whatever is valid will thrive, regardless. i'm curious as to why you accepted the severance package MJ's lawyer felt you ought to be awarded. In the overall disenchantment with what you saw, why didn't you decline? On the face of it, I would think it would have been dirty money, taken from the innocent and trusting under false pretenses. Ill gotten gain, as it were, and regardles of how attractive, nonetheless undesireable to receive or accept. If it was a token of appreciation, why doesnt every person, deciding to leave, get a similar severance gift? i am pondering more, but i'll post this much for the time being.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:36:31 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Thanks for taking the trouble to write all of that. My alter-ego (the Rev) was unsure whether to post that sermon but I'm glad now that it was well received. I think you've said it well and do mirror the thoughts and feelings of many people who followed Maharaji. Sometimes I think it's sad that it should have turned out this way because it was great while it lasted, to have the Lord on the planet. And now, the last thing we want is to start attacking each other for the great mistake that was made, by Maharaji. It is good that you didn't listen to the advice of Maharaji and did pursue the relationship that led to marriage. You probably know that there are many ex-premies who gave up personal relationships and regretted it bitterly in later years. Such chances don't come too often and Maharaji screwed up a lot of people's lives in this way. My poll shows that 64% of people gave up personal relationships for Maharaji and the majority of those regret having sone so. One thing we don't want to do now is let the past with Maharaji influence our lives today and I think you are absolutely right to put your current life and business first before anything else. If we wreck something in our lives now because of some attempt to get at Maharaji, it means that he's still having a negative influence on us. Better that we can walk away from it all, together in the mutual understanding and respect of what we all went through, when the Lord of the Universe came to town.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:55:56 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Dave: You probably know that there are many ex-premies who gave up personal relationships and regretted it bitterly in later years. Such chances don't come too often and Maharaji screwed up a lot of people's lives in this way. The unmitigated hypocrisy of Maharaji's position on this is one of the few things that really gets me incensed. What an absolute weasel. How anyone could ever think he was 'highly evolved' is just beyond me. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:24:11 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: My thoughts entirely, Scott (nt) Message:

zzzzzzzzzzzz

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:31:32 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Dear Micheal I dont know if you remember me, from when we met in Denver. Thanks for your attempt to share your perspective. However I am afraid, unless you would say very negative things about Maharaji or EV, what you say, will never be commonly accepted in the 'Community of ex-premies'. In the end of your post you say; 'As it now stands, Élan Vital’s FAQ’s, and Maharaji’s implicit endorsement of them, are utterly shameful in that they denigrate the love and devotion that many people expressed with their hearts and their lives and their pocketbooks for years' As a person who still try to respect Maharaji and still regard him as a master (and a friend) I dont feel it this way. Best regards to you Bjørn

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:28:41 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: thanks for posting this Michael Message:

I appreciate your taking the risk to make the statements you have about the cult and your journey out of it. There is a lot you can say without violating your agreement, and what you say matters, just as all our voices matter. On a very basic level, what I have always found most compelling about this site is simply reading the insights of others who found their way out of the cult. Thank you.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:24:08 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: That was great Michael, thanks... Message:

Michael, Thanks for that post. I think you will find that your discussion of these things, your personal journey as it were, is what people wanted to hear. Really, the way you came to the conclusions you did, your 'journey' out of the cult, so to speak is what people come to this forum to hear, mostly, at any rate. And your journey is as valuable as any. I really think that some of the criticism of you that has been expressed here, is really more from the lack of participation, the lack of information, more than anything else. I think your participation here, to the extent you can do it, will end that. Frankly, I think that there is plently of criticism that Maharaji deserves, put I think part of his problem is his secrecy, his failure or inability to address the legitimate questions and concerns of people who used to be his followers. That lack of accountability and communication leads to lots of speculation. Even from just a practical standpoint, Maharaji could reduce the level of criticism by just being a bit more forthcoming. I really appreciate your comments on the dishonesty and revisionism in the Elan Vital FAQs and it sounds like you not only see them as 'shameful' but also demeaning and insulting to those of us, like you, who really believed that Maharaji was worthy of love and devotion, and we really tried to dedicate ourselves to him in that way. For Elan Vital to suggest it never happened is infuriating. I feel the same way, as you know, and, again I really appreciate you saying so. I also really appreciate you comments on Maharaji's insatiable desires for every-increasing levels of material possessions. I think others do, too. It must have been particularly hard seeing that from the inside. Like you, I also have a hard time fathoming what I was really feeling and thinking when I was a avid devotee of Maharaji. It's almost incomprehensible now, and very difficult to remember what that all was really like. I'm just glad there aren't any printed 'satsangs' of mine floating around out there. I cringe at the thought. It's hard to remember, or put myself back into that headspace in which I completely and totally believed in Maharaji. But I really believe it's important to try to work through all that, because it has to have had a profound effect on every one of us. I have never been one to suggest that Maharaji has done illegal things, at least not technically illegal, although I know even in my involvement, some of the fundraising was probably, technically, illegal, at least tax-wise. But the big problem with Maharaji is much more moral and ethical than legal. Plus, as I have discussed with you, I really think the big concern should be Maharaji's followers and ex-followers, and not Maharaji. To the extent that talking about all this and sharing insights and information helps them, then we really have taken the results of some of those wasted years and done something positive with them. Thanks again, Michael. Joe

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:57:34 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Michael, Thank you for sharing this, I can sense it is not an easy thing for you to do. I think I can read between the lines enough to get the gist of what you are saying regarding your priveleged information of maharaji's business affairs. It is the brief of all heavy-duty corporate lawyers to hold their client harmless in the eyes of the law, but then, one might argue that O.J. Simpson did nothing *illegal* either..... I can also relate to your need to honor any contractual non-disclosure clauses - practically every project I undertake as a freelance writer for a variety of corporations require I sign similar documents. I am puzzled though, as to why you found it necessary to agree to such terms if you were, as you say, fairly disenchanted with things devoted and divine? If everything is squeeky clean and above-board, what on earth could you know which they would not want disclosed? With my (and I'm sure your) clients, this would include things like pending mergers, new inventions, financial projections etc. Surely there is nothing in the charitable spreading of Knowledge which comes into any of these categories? Is he about to come out with a new watch, perhaps? Anyway, I won't labor that point. I would challenge your notion that Maharaji is 'untouchable' (forgive the pun) - this is a popular myth encouraged by many lawyers to proactively discourage any litigation against their clients, and I must confess to having to question your motivation in using your supposed insider knowledge of the situation to that effect here. But despite all that, I would like to say that your contribution here is most welcome and that there is much you could offer in the way of debunking the mystique surrounding maharaji which will not conflict with your Agreement, and I hope you will consider making regular visits here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 14:16:06 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Rob Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

I can also relate to your need to honor any contractual non-disclosure clauses - Ah, but Rob, you only deal with mere mortals. Dettmers made his agreement with the Living Perfect Master, the only living soul capable of revealing Knowledge of God. It is kind of odd that such an exalted soul would sink to the level of requiring such a strictly self-serving practice as requiring a business associate to sign a non-disclosure agreement. This cult just gets wackier and wackier everytime you hear about going-on's at the top. Sheesh! And God only knows what Dettmers isn't saying!

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:51:37 (GMT) From: dv Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks Mike- your comments are appreciated. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:45:07 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Comments Message:

Michael, perhaps in our little war with Maharaji you are getting the worst of it and for that I am sorry. In my exposé I certainly never thought that we would really get a response. Forthright responses from Maharaji, Elan Vital, et al. have historically been very lacking. Michael, I believe you about what you say that your motives for getting involved with Maharaji were well intentioned and noble and that you are a good person. I think that the one thing that links so many of us here together is the fact that we really were and are decent people that wanted to see 'good' happen. And, I feel that much of our anger and disappointment is due to the way that Maharaji hijacked our sincerity and diverted it for purposes of enriching himself. As for the nondisclosure clauses and the damage to your reputation, I can see how that would be the case. Also, you are probably correct in that through the expert efforts of the highly esteemed Bob Jacobs a very perfect and impenetrable tax-free and guilt-free financial empire has been created to see Maharaji and his progeny well through the upcoming Millennium. Yes, there will be a Millennium, but only for the Rawats.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:34:57 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: brevity? Message:

What do you do when verbose? Funny love will getcha every time huh? It seems, correct me if I am wrong, that you blame EV for their erroneous FAQ's and yet don't you think M has all control over what is put (or deleted) on that site? I have to wonder what the price of silence is. and deceive or otherwise disrupt, say on an internet forum. Not accusing you. I don't even know you. Thankfully I never rose in the ranks of Maharajidumb. Then again, I hung around way longer than most. Just some thoughts.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:44:20 (GMT) From: driven bananas Email: None To: Selene Subject: brevity? Message:

I think we have to write the dictionary publishers about changing the definition of the word brevity. Sorry, such.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 01:23:16 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: driven bananas Subject: brevity? Message:

Yo' ... get yourself an honest, original moniker. I've had this one since the 70's. Peace,

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 06:32:23 (GMT) From: driven bananas Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: brevity? Message:

I guess I had an unconcious desire to be adopted into the banana family.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 21:54:17 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: driven Subject: orange u b n thweet! But, we canteloupe... (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:51:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: brevity? Message:

Selene, I have to say that I don't think Michael's verbose here, if that's what you're suggesting. I think he's definitely trying. Yes, I do, I give him the proverbial benefit of the doubt on that one. But trying what? (Sorry to have made this third peson, Mike. It's not meant to be. It's for you too.) I think that, in all the circumstances ( a favorite judge's phrase that allows them to whatever they want), I think that Michael's simply not giving his clients -- and maybe even himself -- enough credit. That is, he says that his main hurdle vis-a-vis his confidentiality agreement is the impact breaking it might have on his business. I don't but that and here's why. I think that Michael could very properly and eloquently explain to each client concerned his specific history with the cult. If it's as he says it's nothing too much to be ashamed of. Hell, the whole legal community here knows I was in a cult. Whatever, eh? Does that affect their trust of me now? No, I doubt it. They know me as a person doing current transactions, many of them based on trust and all requiring some exercise of judgement and they know what a creep I am right here today. They don't need my cult history to bolster that prejudice. No, really, as I've said before, I think Michael could explain in detail just how valued his talents were recognized as in the cult (that can't hurt business) and the strange course of events that lead to him leaving as he did. It was a cult, for god's sake! Any promise he made to it has to be seen in a different light than promises afterward. I'll tell you one thing, I sure bet, for what it's worth, that any court would say the same. That is, that no court would ever enforce such a deal. It was made udner extreme duress and misrepresentation. Nor would the cult ever try to enforce it legally because Maharaji, who Michael worked with closely, would simply HAVE to testify, Fuhged abowd it! But maybe Michael's real concern isn't so much the confidentialty agreement as much as it's disclosing his cult history itself. Well, that too can be well-explained, given the times, youth, etc. I haven't lost a single client or friend because of my involvement and I've never hidden anything. Sigh! Too fucking bad you didn't just become a welder or something afterwards, huh Mike? Now we're all somehow compromised because of your new profession. Doesn't seem right.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 12:57:04 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: brevity? Message:

Jim: No, really, as I've said before, I think Michael could explain in detail just how valued his talents were recognized as in the cult (that can't hurt business) and the strange course of events that lead to him leaving as he did. It was a cult, for god's sake! Any promise he made to it has to be seen in a different light than promises afterward. Perhaps the cultic business practices are not that different from the practices of the modern corporation? I don't think they'd give a damn if he expostulated on the cult aspects of what was going on, but they might care a great deal about any revelations of activities that resemble their own. Anyway, it's difficult to parse a confidentiality agreement like this. Besides, Michael says that disclosure would have 'no negative legal impact' on Maharaji. If you believe that then what would be the point? Sounds like it would cause a bigger problem for Michael than Maharaji. Having been in a cult is probably less stigmatizing than having inhaled in this age of 'woo woo' TV, so I believe him when he says his primary difficulty is with disclosure itself, and not his cult connection. Perhaps having been a high ranking official in a cult would be more stigmatizing though. Yes, of course it would. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:54:00 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: I was joking around about the brevity thing Message:

It was kind of an attempt to say, 'Michael, you said a lot of words. uh, what did you say?' And, the EV FAQ stuff bothers me a lot. Many ex cult types became corporate consultants I'm told. I know ours was an ex - or present - Landmark Forum initiator or whatever EST called them. The lifestyle was good job experience and people love charmismatic types. And it pays well. Not my thing but good work if you can get it I suppose. I hear what you are saying about how 'coming out' could hurt business. Personally I'm amazed the industry has lasted this long but I saw firsthand how our management ate it up. and to Michael, I chose this thread to comment about a lot of things bothering me about the past cult involvement and the present state of things with me and perhaps others. It's a lot to deal with when one is at yet another crossroads in life. I don't know if I am making sense! Good thing I didn't go into the biz of corporate consulting :) Or is it? Time to call it a night.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:26:30 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: I do not understand why you keep barging on this. Message:

I think you are holding the wrong end of the stick. Maharaji and Michael here are not about money, career and conglomerate organizations. You are totally of the bent here. The confidentiality agreement is about not telling that Maharaji reveled to Michael that he was a bullshit merchant and that if Michael was ever asked about it he should give us this rap. And Michael being the nice and kind fellow that he is accepted it. Really I think it is time to stop this conspiracy theory and get along with our lives

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:31:46 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: A lot of what you say doesn't jibe... Message:

During that time and into the early 80’s, I continued to believe that Maharaji was a perfect master who had manifested in human form. And then this: From my current vantage point more than 20 years later, quite honestly I am not exactly sure how I understood Maharaji during the late 70’s and early 80’s. By that I mean, I don’t recall being stuck in a belief that Maharaji was god. Now which statement should I believe? You can't have it both ways.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 13:31:36 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: I'll take a shot... Message:

Gerry: 1. It could be that he is ambiguous, in which case the second statement is more accurate than the first; or 2. Since the 'early eighties' could refer to any time in the period 1980 to 1985 it could be that he began the period still thinking of Maharaji as 'perfect master in human form' and by 1985 had become 'unstuck' from any lingering identification of Maharaji as 'special' or 'perfect.' 3. Since Michael distinguishes between a status as 'perfect master' and 'god incarnate' he may be simply re-stating that he never held the second opinion, choosing to employ a standard Anglo-Saxon phraseology for understatement: 'I do not recall having ever been a human with three legs.' --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:53:43 (GMT) From: Joke-meister Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: What did the Perfect Master say... Message:

Something in Scott's post made me think of a joke: What did the Perfect Master say when he was brought before Congress on charges of being a mere human? 'I am not now, nor do I recall ever having been, a member of the human race.' (Americans might be more familiar with the reference here).

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 13:38:34 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Ambiguous like a fox... Message:

Maybe dettmers never heard this (ha ha ha.) “Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma( Creator ). Guru Maharaj Ji is Vishnu ( Operator ). Guru Maharaji is Shiva ( Destroyer of illusion and ego ). And above all, Guru Maharaji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come , the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven’t heard of Guru Maharaji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now it’s your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth…”

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:09:06 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: Ambiguous like a fox... Message:

Gerry: Well, there were a lot of premies who didn't subscribe to that. I guess Michael is saying he was one of them. Yeah, it's true that he obviously never went to the trouble to compare the inconsistencies... but it was a cult. What else is new? --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 13:37:10 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Actually... Message:

it could easily be a combination of 2 and 3, which are not incompatible.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 13:42:59 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Whatever... Message:

I think it's pretty clear that dettmers is still a believer. As such, he is nothing but a particularly adept apologist. He may have been kicked out of the org but he never left the cult. See my post at the bottom of this thread.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:05:03 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: dettmers Subject: You talk out of both sides of your mouth... Message:

The first time I actually spent any personal time with Maharaji was during his visit to Canada in 1974. Shortly, thereafter, he asked me to come to Denver to work at his International Headquarters. As I spent more personal time with Maharaji, I became less in awe of him as a perfect master sitting on a stage, and got to know, respect and love him as a person – a very incredible, uniquely talented, and extremely intelligent human being. It didn’t matter to me that he was but a mere mortal like the rest of us. I was convinced that he had the vision, the commitment, and the ability to spread knowledge to people all over the world, and I was glad to play a role in that endeavor. --Dettmers, email to Heller April 5, 2000 (emphasis mine) So you really DID see him as a 'mere mortal' as early as 1974, didn't you Dettmers? But you continued to represent him to the rest of us as god fucking almighty EVEN WHEN YOU KNEW THE TRUTH. I'm having a really tough time not cussing your ass out bigtime, dufus.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 14:47:20 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: gerry Subject: Give it some air Message:

Gerry, During my daze as a premie, I was more confused about Maharaji than anything. It was a time of high hopes, but little 'experience'. I swung back and forth on this thing for 20 years. It's not as if it was ever clear as day that Maharaji was some kind of divine incarnation who saved my lucky soul. No, it was me dreaming half the time that that was the case, and the other half plagued with doubt. What I'm trying to say is I don't think it's right that we judge Michael for the way he remembers his involvement in the cult and what he thought about Maharaji. It's pretty clear to me that he probably had a doozy of a rollercoaster ride in this thing the same as the rest of us, and sorting out just where he was back then is naturally going to cause some confusion which will come across as double-talk. I think you're being unfair.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:00:01 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Give it some air Message:

This is a guy who's business is COMMUNICATION, for chrissake. How could I be unfair for expecting clear, coherent, consistent communication? No, he knows exactly what he's saying and it is DELIBERATE, imo.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:09:51 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: gerry Subject: Give it some air Message:

Gerry, I'm just trying to relate to Michael as a former cult member. Christ, we were all fucked up in the head. How do you remember, with perfect clarity, just how fucked up you were in your life? It boggles the mind. Not only that, but the same mind that was in place during those wonder years is still largely intact in the present. No, I'd give Michael some slack here. Maybe he's in the business of communication, but that doesn't mean he has to be any good at it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:44:36 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: There's the problem Message:

Jer, You'll be beating your head against the wall trying to understand this guy unless you realize this simple point: HE'S STILL A PREMIE !!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 15:51:15 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: gerry Subject: this must be quite the nasty plot Message:

Rawat...says 'okay Dettmers: this is what ya gotta do: Go on the forum Talk about my greed Talk about it being a cult talk about the FAQs being deceptive and shameful Most of those ex's are a bunch of suckers, we sucked em once so we can suck em again, but Dettmers, I am worried about that Gerry, he is one perceptive guy, and that Joey fellow, he hasn't been around much, but damn, he sees our plots before we even plan em. We may not suck those to in, but we'll get the rest ( insert sinister laugh, and point your finger to the side of your mouth) Today Ex premie org...tomorrow the WORLD!!!!!! Mine, all mine.....

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:19:40 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: Are you feeling OK, Susan? Message:

Susan, To Dettmers, Goober is a capable, masterful teacher who embodies the experience of knowledge: peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness. To Dettmers, Goober is not a fraud. He delivered what he promised. Dettmers still practises 'knowledge' almost everyday. He experiences 'appreciation' and 'graditude.' How is this different from the belief system of present day premies? OK, he said the EV faqs were crap. How could he say anything but this to us, he knows better. He doesn't criticise Rawrat, he says he refuses to do so, but freely criticises EV, which means he is doing nothing other than BLAMING THE PREMIES. I doubt very much he had ANY conversations with Goober, as you are alluding to, so stuff that 'conspiracy theory.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:10:38 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: gerry, I am sorry Message:

that post I just made was mean spirited. I apologize.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 16:26:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: No need to apologize Message:

I admit, I'm a nasty piece of work sometimes. And conspiracy theories (some) do appeal to me. It's how I make some sense out of an insane world. Maybe I should take up meditation...

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:34:15 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: dettmers Subject: And by the way dettmers... Message:

Slander is the spoken word. You mean libelous.

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Date: Tues, Oct 10, 2000 at 23:27:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Okay, fine, but can you answer this? Message:

Michael, At the moment I'm trying to figure out what kind of work Eli does in the thread below. I notice that you have assiduously avoided this issue. I'm sorry, that won't do. For the last time, what do you think she does for a living? :) P.S. Really? Thanks for that. I don't know what to think about some of this stuff. And yes, your cinfidentiality agreement with all of our former cult leader's a bitter pill to swallow. But thanks anyway. Okay, back to the question -- well?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 00:22:49 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dettmers is STILL a premie Message:

We'll NEVER get straight answers from him--only WEASEL WORDS. Non-disclosure agreement my ass. Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? For me, I was searching for peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness, and the knowledge Maharaji spoke about sounded like the answer. And guess what? For me, it was. In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action. However, whether you consider him a god or a human being, it is still necessary to have some confidence that he is capable of teaching you about knowledge (that logic applies in any student-teacher relationship). And it is my experience that it is necessary to meditate regularly. Is Maharaji a fraud? To me, he is not. He promised that he would teach me how to experience knowledge and he did, to my great satisfaction. I will not attempt to define what I mean by “great satisfaction” since whatever I might say would only be my interpretation or explanation of the experience, not the experience itself (the phenomenon) which is for each person to discover for him or herself. Did I stop practicing knowledge when I left? No, I still meditate almost every day and I continue to enjoy the experience and derive great benefit from doing so. In addition to meditation, I am committed to keeping alive my desire to learn and deepen my appreciation for the beauty and joy of life. Like any human, I encounter some difficulties and disappointments, but for the most part I am grateful that I am continuing to learn and to attract wonderful people and interesting projects that are aligned with what I care about into my life.   What wonderful appreciation and synchronicity Dettmers displays here. Knowledge--Goober 'embodies' the experience. I guess that means it's all about greed, materialism, lust, drug abuse, etc, etc. Hey maybe I SHOULD give it another try...

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:46:58 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: I don't see it Message:

Gerry: Well, I don't think he's still a premie any more than I am. I doubt that the non-disclosure agreement covers any of the 'countless personal experiences in which I [he] have [has] witnessed that mastery in action' so if Michael would like to share any of those experiences it might help others (and possibly himself) in their journey. I suspect that we would not agree on the relevance of 'mastery' any more than we agree on the significance of Martin Heidegger. I would probably end up with much the same attitude about Maharaji that Michael expresses were it not for that fact that I'm wont to hold him (Maharaji) to the same rational ethical standard as everyone else. Adolf Hitler exhibited 'mastery' of some abilities and capacities. That doesn't incline me to be charitable toward him, or to argue that he made the trains run on time, etc. (though Heidegger did, in fact, make those apologies). I can probably point Michael toward someone who might be able to complete his research into ontology (Thelma Lavine) if he's interested. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:59:47 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: well look again Message:

To Dettmers, Goober is a capable, masterful teacher who embodies the experience of knowledge: peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness. To Dettmers, Goober is not a fraud. He delivered what he promised. Dettmers still practises 'knowledge' almost everyday. He experiences 'appreciation' and 'graditude.' How is this different from the belief system of present day premies?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:33:09 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: well look again Message:

Gerry: To Dettmers, Goober is a capable, masterful teacher who embodies the experience of knowledge: peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness. I can't see where he still believes that Maharaji 'embodies Knowledge,' do you? Looks to me that he was talking about his impressions during his period of service. To Dettmers, Goober is not a fraud. He delivered what he promised. Well, if your standards for proving fraud were as high as Michael's I can easily see how you'd make this conclusion. To me he was selling more than a meditation technique, and even more than his 'mastery' of an esoteric discipline. That pretty much constitutes fraud to me. I think there's a hole in Michael's logic here, but it doesn't mean he's still a premie. Dettmers still practises 'knowledge' almost everyday. He experiences 'appreciation' and 'graditude.' Well, I still meditate and I should hope that I still experience 'appreciation' and 'gratitude.' I don't see where he says he experiences appreciation and gratitude toward Maharaji in that context. Looks to me that he appreciates beauty and joy in life, and is grateful for learning, interesting projects, and wonderful people. Aren't you? How is this different from the belief system of present day premies? Oh I don't know... He doesn't listen to or give any credence to the words and behavior of Maharaji? Just a guess. I can't speak for him, of course. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:51:05 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: well look again Message:

Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? For me, I was searching for peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness, and the knowledge Maharaji spoke about sounded like the answer. And guess what? For me, it was. In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action. However, whether you consider him a god or a human being, it is still necessary to have some confidence that he is capable of teaching you about knowledge (that logic applies in any student-teacher relationship). And it is my experience that it is necessary to meditate regularly. This is clearly written in the present tense. Is Maharaji a fraud? To me, he is not. He promised that he would teach me how to experience knowledge and he did, to my great satisfaction. I will not attempt to define what I mean by “great satisfaction” since whatever I might say would only be my interpretation or explanation of the experience, not the experience itself (the phenomenon) which is for each person to discover for him or herself. Again, these are his current beliefs. Did I stop practicing knowledge when I left? No, I still meditate almost every day and I continue to enjoy the experience and derive great benefit from doing so. In addition to meditation, I am committed to keeping alive my desire to learn and deepen my appreciation for the beauty and joy of life. Like any human, I encounter some difficulties and disappointments, but for the most part I am grateful that I am continuing to learn and to attract wonderful people and interesting projects that are aligned with what I care about into my life. Did I give up the devotional relationship with Maharaji altogether and was this a difficult transition? I have already expressed my views about devotion so I won’t repeat myself here. But until the time I left, I was very committed and dedicated to helping Maharaji fulfill his mission. When I was involved with Maharaji, I came to know him as a friend for whom I had great love. And love can be expressed in many ways. I wouldn’t characterize mine as devotional but it was love none the less. And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji. While I was with him, I never experienced the kind of transition you speak about. When I left, I was satisfied that I had done the best job I could do. Of course there was a transition, but I would not characterize it as difficult. As I pointed out, I continued to meditate, I became absorbed in building Dettmers Industries with my brother and others, and I studied with several people who are masterful in the area of organizational transformation that now forms the basis for my consulting practice. For the record, I have never studied EST nor was I ever an EST trainer as someone suggested. I think he's still in the fold.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 19:59:59 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: well look again Message:

In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge. By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience. This is the only relevant passage that appears to be written in the present tense. The paragraph as a whole is clearly in the past tense, as is the first sentence. It may be a mistake in consruction. Just because he makes his living at communicating doesn't mean he never makes mistakes. I make my living at communicating, I probably scored higher in the verbal GREs than Michael, and I still make those kinds of mistakes especially on the Internet. Taken in context you'd have to be really 'picky' to consider that this means he still considers Maharaji 'masterful.' If he does then he must be a nitwit. I've already responded to many of your other remarks about his current beliefs, so won't repeat those points. Additionally, 'And it is out of respect for that love and appreciation for knowledge that I refuse to criticize Maharaji.' Looks like he respects Knowledge and chooses to not to criticize Maharaji for that reason. I don't see the connection myself, but that doesn't mean he's still a premie... and anyway he has criticized both EV *and* Maharaji, so maybe he's a little inconsistent. Do you want to hold a mirror under his nose to see if he's breathing? Tickle him and see if he giggles? What's up with you man? I think he's just not examined his present beliefs very much. Neither had I when I first arrived on the Forum. I was hardly 'still in the fold' though. I think these unexamined beliefs are one reason he has avoided posting here, so now he's gone and done it and we'll see how far it takes him. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 20:40:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: well look again Message:

Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? past tense, then present tense. To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? present tense For me, I was searching for peace, inner harmony, love, and consciousness, and the knowledge Maharaji spoke about sounded like the answer. And guess what? For me, it was. In time, I discovered how masterful he is in the domain he calls knowledge.By masterful I mean that he embodies the experience.(PT) And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action.(PT) However, whether you consider him a god or a human being, it is still necessary to have some confidence that he is capable of teaching you about knowledge (that logic applies in any student-teacher relationship). And it is my experience that it is necessary to meditate regularly. present tense !!! Why would a guy who teaches corporations how to communicate and relate etc etc etc leave fifteen years of his life UNEXAMINED??? I GUESS IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:57:54 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: well look again Message:

Gerry: Why was I attracted to Maharaji and who do I think Maharaji is? past tense, then present tense. To me, Maharaji is a teacher. A teacher of what? present tense He is clearly responding to two questions, and I've already indicated that the second is the only (possibly) relevant use of the present tense. The first question concerns what attracted him to Maharaji while the second concerns who he thinks Maharaji is, or was. The fact that he is using the present tense does not necessarily mean he still holds that opinion. He sticks to that basic tense construction, but he's clearly thinking in the past, as the following sentence shows: And I have countless personal experiences in which I have witnessed that mastery in action.(PT) You say this is in the present tense, but strictly speaking only the first part is in present tense, while the meaning of the entire sentence refers to something in the past. The second part of the sentence is modulated by the verb 'have witnessed' so it's in the past tense, and therefore the experiences he's talking about 'are' in the past. You might say they 'were' in the past, but that could lead one to believe they have moved into the present somehow, or possibly even into the future, so strictly speaking the proper construction is that they 'are' in the past and therefore 'have countless personal experiences' is the proper construction. From Encyclopaedia Britannica: 'The correlation between tense and time is not necessarily one-to-one; languages do not recognize as many oppositions of tense as they have conceptions of time. English has past, present, and future times, but only a past and a nonpast opposition of tense.' So, unless the context indicates that he believes Maharaji to be currently 'masterful' we can't assume that the tense he uses is a quid pro quo of his underlying convictions. Indeed, I would say that it is not. My flight 'is leaving' at 7:30 tomorrow night, so with the simple convenience of syntactical construction I have become a time traveller. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:23:09 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Who's on first? Message:

Well, Mike could simplifiy this whole thing by telling us what he thinks of Maharaji now. Then we would know for sure. Guess we wrung that one dry, have a good flight. ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '     (joke)

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:33:30 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: Who's on first? Message:

Well, Mike could simplifiy this whole thing by telling us what he thinks of Maharaji now. Then we would know for sure. Exactly. It appears that he has done just that in his response to Jim's question above, at least to my satisfaction.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:44:29 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: You're easily satisfied then. Message:

Really Scott, the fact that Dettmers 'holds M responsible for the shameless lies' on EV's faq doesn't go very far in clearing up this mystery. I'm certainly not satisfied. Here we have a guy who by his own admission knew Rawat was a 'mere mortal' as early as 1974 yet kept on preaching his divinity. I'd say he has a slight credibility problem.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 14:52:17 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: gerry Subject: I 'll add my reaction Message:

I was happy to read Michael's post this morning and all the various and varied reactions. It is a bit ironic that the old bigwigs still inhabit a higher status, even as exes. But I suppose it is natural because obviously they have a greater potential to be effective debunkers of the cult. It was a great pleasure for me to read Dettmer's appraisal of Elan Vital's FAQ section. 'Shameful' - yes! And I also appreciate Michael's musing that it could have been different. Mr. Rawat could have chosen a path more truthful, and likewise Elan Vital's website could have simply presented the truth, clearly and wholly. But then again, maybe not, because the simple truth is that no human being needs to follow Mr. Rawat as the master to find fulfillment in this life. At the second-to-last program I attended, Maharaji made a comment about one of his children and said something to the effect that 'the father in me feels one way, and the Master in me feels another way'. (I forget which child and what exactly the conflicting feelings were). I realized for the first time that there was a conflict within Rawat/Maharaji between the roles that he was playing and further, that the Master role was just that - a role! The inhumaness of the ashram and the inhumaness of being a premie was the thing that finally made be realize that Mr. Rawat's Knowledge is not wholeness. I see that Michael left with the same realization. Many exes appreciate Michael posting here at all, and appreciate the fact that he has provided a frank account of his personal 'journey,' while other exes remain disappointed that Michael chooses now not to take up arms in the battle against Rawat's cult. I, too, appreciate his post, and also remain a bit disappointed. I can't help imagining what it would be like if Michael, along with Bill Patterson, Charles Cameron, Mike Donner, Joe Anctil, Alan Imbaratto, etc.,etc., etc., (and maybe even a Claudia or a Monica) would let the current premies know everything that they know! The illusion of devotion to the living Perfect Master will live on.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:10:18 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Way Subject: And while all the movers and shakers were moving Message:

and shaking, there were hundreds of thousands of 'ordinary' folks who got up every morning, went to work, supported families or households, sweat the bills, and found real sanctuary and inner fulfillment in the practice of the timeless and priceless Knowledge, which they received due to the efforts and travels of one Prem Pal Singh Rawat in his role as Master. On that level, he delivered. And what else can a human being with a pulse and some humility feel for the person who showed them a way to know peace on a daily basis, but gratitude and maybe even love? Personalities aside, just look at it please. Yeah, some say the same Knowledge could be gotten elsewhere. And if grandma had balls she'd be grandpa. It went down how it went down. He did the work and delivered the goods to many hundreds of thousands, including us, whether we accept it or refute it today here and now. Knowledge is in its own category. All the rest of the people and parts are support and delivery systems of the experience of Knowledge. Having experienced and enjoyed some of the fruits of Knowledge, it becomes obvious that Knowledge and business affairs are of two different realms. I would love it if those two worlds merged and we all conducted ourselves with the awareness that we are in the presence of God all the time, but the human race is not there yet. Progress has been made with human life on earth. My cup is half full to runnething over, but never half empty. And so is yours. It's all in how we look at all this data. This is becoming like one of those Indian comic books about Ram and Sita or something. All the intrigues of the Holy Families brought to light, swell. To what end? He already said he is a human being and cuts himself shaving. I took that to mean he is vulnerable to human frailty in general. And that was years ago. I see culture clash as being the cause of alot of the semantical problems and the business practices that happened in the past. I think that is why it is now presented as neutrally as possible, so there are no cultural discrepencies that could cloud the message of Knowledge or freak people out, which is the key issue, the raising of human consciousness on earth via Knowledge. And if he came with only the robe on his back, barefoot and living under a tree, how many would believe him? Between that example and how Maharaji presently lives, there are a multitude of notches on the continuum where Maharaji could live, and I bet you that no matter where he plugged in, he'd have vehement critics who would question and tear at him no matter what. shp

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:03:13 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: Well then, how about Paul Twitchel? Message:

SHP: If you're inclined to excuse the distortions and outright lies, moral lapses, indulgences, etc. for the sake of the Knowledge, then why not give the same due to the numerous others who made the same contribution, including the infamous Paul Twitchel of Ek Ankar fame. Gosh, are we to exclude him from reverence and gratitude simply because he was a child molester? How narrow minded and ungrateful! Let's give credit where it's due, shall we? Yeah, some say the same Knowledge could be gotten elsewhere. And if grandma had balls she'd be grandpa. Logical fallacy. The same Knowledge can be gotten lots of places without much effort. Lane has a big list, and M doesn't even occupy a very significant place on it. On the other hand, if your grandma had balls it would only enhance your considerable mystique. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 21:55:42 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Well then, how about Paul Twitchel? Message:

If Paul twitched a kid, he's a felon. That's a different ballpark, isn't it?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:25:38 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: Well then, how about Paul Twitchel? Message:

Not according to your logic. Do you excuse unethical behavior on the part of a spiritual leader, yet draw the line at illegalities? What sort of doctrine is that? Give the man his due, for heaven sake.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:25:52 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: You would scorn an aethetic and you scorn a Message:

wheeler-dealer. I may not have done what he did, but I am not his judge either.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:01:52 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: shp Subject: Response to shp, with hesitation Message:

Sandy, This has been a long thread with some significant comments. Yet you make a contribution, not by refering directly to anything specifically mentioned here, but only by re-presenting a stubborn and general defense of Mr. Rawat as the Master and his Knowledge being the true divine Knowledge. So, I don't know what to say that would not be a rehashing of what has already been said to you so many times already. Nevertheless, I will make a few points. You say that when the true Master comes, he is always prosecuted, no matter how he presents himself. But that supposes that you are talking about the actual true Master and begs the question about Rawat being he. All I can think to say is to refer you to the FAQ section at Elan Vital where it talks about whether or not Rawat ever claimed to be the current incarnation of God. Both the Elan Vital spokespersons and Mr. Rawat himself in a video clip attempt to persuade people that Mr. Rawat never presented himself as the messiah figure. That is an obvious lie. He did present himself as the messiah figure. And yet, here you are, ignoring the current lies, and what's more, still talking as if Rawat IS the messiah figure. Therefore, you still seem to be relating to Rawat in a way that he himself as denounced. Secondly, you claim that hundreds of thousands of ordinary people have found inner fulfillment and a way to know peace every day through their practice of Mr. Rawat's Knowledge. If that were true, then Mr. Rawat would be a great deal more famous by now than he is. The truth is that premies are no different from other human beings on the planet. I know many premies and they are simply no different in any way. They are not more peaceful on a daily basis, nor are they interiorly fulfilled by direct Knowledge of the divinity. It's just not true, shp. By the way, it's a bit pathetic that you say that ordinary householders found the timeless and priceless Knowledge. That makes me wonder if you ever heard what Maharaji and instructors and ashram premies used to say constantly about householders when they weren't around! If you don't know, I will tell you - 'householders, try as they might, poor souls, will never realize Knowledge because they utterly lack the true devotion to the Master. They are just fooling themselves and they might just as well go change a diaper as to try to get in a little meditation.' You have been posting here too long, shp. At least Shroom had the sense to know when his debate had concluded and anything further said would be mere futile rehashing. You have acquainted yourself with all the ex-premie information. There really isn't anything more for any of us to say to you. If you reject what we are saying, then go ahead and make your final and firm rejection. Go, live in your peace. But if you insist on hanging around here, then please stop repeating yourself ad nauseum.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:08:58 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Way Subject: This is too funny... Message:

By the way, it's a bit pathetic that you say that ordinary householders found the timeless and priceless Knowledge. That makes me wonder if you ever heard what Maharaji and instructors and ashram premies used to say constantly about householders when they weren't around! If you don't know, I will tell you - 'householders, try as they might, poor souls, will never realize Knowledge because they utterly lack the true devotion to the Master. They are just fooling themselves and they might just as well go change a diaper as to try to get in a little meditation.' -Way Dear Way, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but I went to a meeting given by Charananand for premies thinking about the ashram, and he said that married life was a 'veil of sorrows' and that the ashram was the only true place to realize Knowledge. Then I heard him give the exact same rap to householder premies at a community meeting, except that he reversed it and said that ashram life was a veil of sorrows...and that to have a household was the true path to realizing Knowledge, and at the same time to also enjoy all the fruits of a human relationship and children. Swear to Gawwwwwd. Also, I heard Maharaji say that being married and raising children is a 'tall order' and not everybody can do it. What were you saying again?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 23:49:41 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: shp Subject: This is too funny... Message:

SHP: So, basically what your saying is that it doesn't matter what you say. Why isn't my jaw banging on the floor in surprise? --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 00:07:27 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: and he is saying Message:

That M and the PAM's contradicted themselves. hmmm, I'm not surprised either :)

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 22:39:23 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: shp Subject: Back to shp-would you do me a favor? Message:

I guess I should have gone with my first instinct and simply ignored your post to me. But no, I went ahead and made two points, then I added a 'by the way' about householders. You ignored my two points and made an observation about Guru Charnanand's and Maharaji's inconsistencies. I agree that the pro and cons about family life have always been a hopeless muddle in Rawat's cult, but I am a little annoyed (though not surprised)that you didn't bother to continue the discussion with me that you yourself started. So do me a favor and refrain from posting to me unless you want to discuss one very specific point and stick to that point until we come to some mutual understanding on that specific point. If you treat me with that kind of common human fairness, I will reciprocate. Otherwise, please leave me alone.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 18:07:20 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Way Subject: thanks for this part Way Message:

You mentioned the householders: By the way, it's a bit pathetic that you say that ordinary householders found the timeless and priceless Knowledge. That makes me wonder if you ever heard what Maharaji and instructors and ashram premies used to say constantly about householders when they weren't around! and so forth. I had wanted to comment on this myself. Those days of trying to be a parent and pay the bills and all were far far from ordinary! We were operating under a constant handicap of giving donations that were really coerced by peer pressure, constant phone calls and all. Same with scraping up money to travel all over to see the living lord, it seemed like at least 3 times a year. And of course that was the minimum, we were after all, underpriviledged and didn't get to all the festivals. That is not in any way what I would define as 'ordinary folk' or whatever shp said.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:19:53 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Moron Message:

but yer right about one thing: no matter where he plugged in, he'd have vehement critics who would question and tear at him no matter what. One question, Sandy: If goober unplugged his butt plug and told you to lick it, would you? Just trying to raise your consciousness here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:23:56 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: More on Message:

gerry, So you are reading, that is good. Communication is good. Just gotta work on the content. shp

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:29:04 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: I admit it was a little thin on content, but Message:

what can I say to a guy like you sandy? How come you still come here and give satsang? Do you think maybe someday it will all sink in and we'll come to appreciate the master? Seriously dude what's the deal?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:37:42 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: No hard feelings Message:

You know about the little proverbial 'devil' and the 'angel' on the shoulders, each giving the host body their own speil...it's been depicted in many ways, from cartoons to sitcoms to Michaelangelo. You think I have not entertained all the same thoughts that have been presented by your most adamant ex-premie? You think you have a corner on information and 'dirt'? Give me a break. I've got eyes and ears, too. I just see it all very differently than you in the big picture. No hard feelings. shp

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:44:31 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: are you insane? Message:

really, have you ever been diagnosed? Now I'll answer your questions: No I don't think you've really considered the facts presented by this website. No I don't have the corner on information or dirt. Now why is it you come here and ive satsang? Do you know the reason, yourself? Is it some weird compulsion or are you just lonely and bored?

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Date: Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 17:51:48 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: It just may be a lunatic you're looking for...* Message:

I don't see it as 'giving satsang'. I think you are just hiding behind Indian jargon here. I just see it as communicating. One reason I like to talk to you all is because of something I read in the Bible! How's that for a kick in the ass! It goes something like this: 'Be hot or cold, but don't be tepid. If you are tepid, I will spit you out.' -JC You all are definitely not tepid, and therefore got my attention. shp *credit to Billy Joel

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 13:05:29 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: shp Subject: ...but shp's an abusive shit-for-brains NT Message:

... nothing for you here shp. Fuck off.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 15:24:07 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: JohnT Subject: That's not who I am, just your distorted view. nt Message:

It's a big Forum out there. If you don't want to have anything to do with me, simple. Just don't click on anything from 'shp'. I was warned about responses like yours in your own Forum intro. On another note, now is the time to be focussed, very much so. The eleventh hour is becoming the twelfth. A Hopi elder told me so. No worries.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 12, 2000 at 16:09:19 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: shp Subject: Let's vote. Then you will see how you're seen. nt Message:

nt

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