Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:09:00 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Blackmail Message:

Michael, It seems to me that I recall a 'Bill Murray' who was some kind of DLM/DV honcho, but that was a long time ago, so I could be wrong. I can't imagine that a weasel like that would use his or her own name, though. People who blackmail are notorious cowards. They operate in the shadows. Frankly, I can't quite figure out what Bill Murray fears you might say that hasn't already been said. I guess you just might have more credibility having been around Maharaji more than many of the rest of us. I think the pictures of Maharaji on this website and the simple recitation of what happened in the cult, especially in light of Maharaji's attempt to re-write the past, a la George Orwell, is plenty damning. It seems that silence is Maharaji's big defense, although a highly ineffective one. Just pretend it didn't happen, and instill enough fear in your followers of ever saying anything. And I agree with Anon, the motivation really is fear. Plus, the truth brought up to the light of day is lethal to Maharaji and I think many of the premies know it. They want to keep the cult, and their extremely fragile belief system going and they fear that information will kill it, and they are probably right. I'm not sure how calculated Maharaji is about this, although given that Elan Vital wouldn't have published those lying and disgraceful FAQs on the Elan Vital website without his approval, he seems directly participating in the deceit and cover-up. On the other hand, ex-premies, once they get out of the Maharaji cult, often have an insatiable NEED for the information they were denied while in teh cult. Once you don't fear Maharaji anymore, you really want to see the information and that really helps you figure out what was really going on, and it helps people incorporate the cult experience and move on with productive lives. But I am really envious, Michael. I have been posting around here for a couple of years, and nobody has ever threatened me with anything. Sad, really. I was hoping they could do better than that. I guess I just don't rate. But this can go both ways. For example, I knew Marcia Leitner in the Maharaji cult. I served with Marcia Leitner in Divine Light Mission, and although I can't say Marcia was ever a friend of mine, based on her swallowing her morals and ethics and towing the Elan Vital line, I can say she is no Jack Kennedy. ::)) She is certainly NOT a Profile in Courage, that's for sure. But given that Marcia is still operating in the cult, she is still operating under a lot of fear. Especially fear of displeasing or causing some difficulties for Maharaji. The thought of that feeling, which I recall myself, gives me the creeps. It is just so destructive to the human spirit. But I can't imagine that Marcia Leitner would like it known that she is on the board of directors of an organization that harbors child molestors. There are also lots of other premies who hide the fact that they ARE premies from their operations in the real world. Or at least they hide what being a premie means, what they really believe, and the worst of all, and the most embarrassing and difficult for most premies to explain, they hide the way Maharaji is, what is past is, how he lives an obscenely extravagant lifestyle, the fact that they worship him, and the rotten, uncarring things he has done to people, for which he will not accept any responsibility. Really, they hide the fact that they are in a personality cult that most normal thinking people would find repulsive. People like 'Bill Murray' probably don't want THAT known either. And I know what you mean about how laying out everything is so freeing and how the truth is so liberating. Maybe this isn't completely analogous, but as a gay man, I know this is an issue that many gay people live with through their lives. They can stay in the closet and be subject to blackmail at any time, and also they have to continually hide who they are. It's a really terrible tway to live, but coming out can be so terrifying. But then, when you do, you are free. You are who you are, and that's it. No one can blackmail you anymore, and you can be yourself. It's a much more powerful position. Joe

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:09:50 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re Blackmail and concepts Message:

Hi Joe I hope you could try to read this post as it was written by a non premie. Today I had my first consultations with a terapist. We discussed a lot of things, and I told her about one of the reasons I had come. I told her about all the things that happened to me which made me depressed. I told her about a comment I made here at the Forum, which made people jump at me and call me a pedophile. However much I denied this, the accusations went on. And I told her aboout the depresions I had this year also due to the remembrance that I was myself a victim of pedophily as a kid. In my consultations I also discussed about pedophiles. As expected she said that pedophily is something some people have. And she confirmed that there are different levels of pedophiles. Some people touch kids, some pedophiles probably stay a 'virgin' all their life. Some people have sex with kids. And some people rape kids. In the same way, it is with gays. And with hetreo. In this different shades of grey (rapist till 'virgin'), from what I understood from Susan, Jagdeo is probably in the area of being a 'virgin' to be a 'toucher'. Would you consider your statement re an organisation 'But I can't imagine that Marcia Leitner would like it known that she is on the board of directors of an organization that harbors child molestors' to be a bit harsh - or out of place? I sometimes remember when I was a kid. At that time, gay people were almost regarded as sick people as well as criminal. I think they actually were considered to sexually abuse kids. Thus blackmailing happened. Thus behaviour like pedophiles experience today happened. I dont try to excuse pedophhiles. I've said in my opinion they should be put under medical treatment or in jail. But I mean one has to distinguish between a person who has a desire, and a person who does a criminal act. And I suppose as my tereapist confirmed today, those who have this sexual desire, it makes no sense for really jugding them. And has not the jugdemental attitude destroyed already more than it had gained? You are from one sexual miniority. I suppose you know the history and the tragdedy to be an unaccepted person in the society due to your sexual tendencies. I kind of find it strange that people belonging to one sexual minority, are so jugdmental of even those who belong to another sexual minority.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:30:27 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: KNOCK IT OFF!!!!! Message:

Bjorn, First, I have to say you are the most ignorant person I have encountered in a long time. You need to do some research re: pedophiles, incest perpetrators, etc. There is a wide range of sex offenders out there and most (about 95%) are white heterosexual males. You should be very careful about spouting your mouth off about things you know NOTHING about! Your persistance is insulting and injurious to everyone here. You don't belong here. This is not a forum for healing from child sexual abuse. It's YOU'RE responsibility to get some help, (which btw, I don't believe you did). This forum is not about you, nor is is FOR you. What you have said in your posts is beyond ignorant--it's plain mean. Just as I was starting to believe you are not a pedophile, now I am reconsidering. You seem to have that same mental set that sex offenders have: denial, a huge 'pity-me' attitude, and a clear indifference to victims. Dare I say sociopathic??? Yet you persist in making clearly untrue remarks which hurt others here who were abused by men in power in the cult. STOP IT NOW!!! You have no right to spread myths about this issue, get a fucking book and read about this subject before you say anymore. By the way, children DO FORGET about sex abuse. Stop posting here, you are a sickening person. FA, please do something about this character. Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:15:30 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I WILL STOP. Message:

I will stop posting here. How is it possible to fight lies? The name of my terapist is Liv Haugen, phone number can be given. My next consultation is 24th of oct. You might call me ignorant of pedophily, but I dare say, so are others. But at least I have first hand experience of being a victim. BTW watch 'American Beauty'. If you read Gerrys comments about this movie, it might have given you a clue. In most of my posts and in my correspondance to Susan and to Anth I did stress the importance to first of all to take care of the victims. I still think so. In my fatal post which was twisted by a lot of ex-premies, was BTW a reply to you, I stated there to be an victim my self. It was told I just made this up afterwards. The tread was about Jagdeo and other stuff. If I have by my posting here hurt anyone, I regret it and I am terrible sorry. I suppose I am just a volnerable guy and for me this whole thing has been a nightmare. I have mailed the FA, if I ever for some reason will not follow Maharaji anymore, I will sue this Forum and Gerry. That is not a treat, it is a promise,

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:45:29 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I Sure As Hell Hope So Message:

Bjorn: Your statement, ...if I ever for some reason will not follow Maharaji anymore, I will sue this Forum and Gerry,'reveals you to be a classic victimizer posing as a victim, certainly not my favorite personality type. Do yourself a favor and get rid of your computer and continue to see your therapist. You both have your work cut out for you, that's for sure.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:37:56 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn's 'memory surge' Message:

Here's what's so fake about bjorn's clain to have been molested as a child. He said he had no memory of this until he came to this forum and was confronted. I say this is simply a lie. If you are molested as a child, you don't forget it. As for pedophiles being merely a sexual minority similiar to being gay, I can not think of anything more reprehensible and untrue as that statement.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:40:00 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Uh, Gerry Message:

I agree with your last statement, but not your first. It is true that children, or even teenagers, who are sexually abused often forget. When we were both very young teenagers, my sister had a sexually related encounter initiated by an adult. She TOLD me about the incident at the time (and at the time, neither of us knew anyone else that we could trust to tell about it.) She then repressed the memory and spent several years in therapy trying to uncover it - she finally did. My brother has had the same problem with repressing memories of physical abuse - he told both me and my sister at the times these abuses happened, but 'can't remember' it now, although he will take our word for it. This is a really sad situation, by the way. I don't really want to talk about this because it's upsetting to me, but I did want to tell you that it can and does happen. Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:22:21 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Uh, Kathie (snicker) Message:

Thanks. I did a quick search and here's the first thing I came up with: First, it's important to state that there is a consensus among memory researchers and clinicians that most people who were sexually abused as children remember all or part of what happened to them although they may not fully understand or disclose it. Of course, 'most' isn't all. I gotta go, but I'm definitely gonna look into this subject some more.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:37:36 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: wrong Bjorn Message:

That is all that happened to me, much worse happened to the other victims. And I reported, from the start, that much worse had happened to other girls. Are you somehow trying to imply that being a child molester is like being gay? That is revolting. I am not going to go into the details of the molestation of the other girls, but much worse happened, they were much younger than I was. Your post is revolting and insulting.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:44:32 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan Message:

I never inteded to insult you. But where were you when I as a victim over and over again was falsely accused of being a pedophile? In our correspondance you believed me, and you said nothing! Not even once. I was kicked and kicked, and you were silent. I dont know the truth about Jagdeo. The truth about what happened to you and Abi you have told me. The truth about other things I would say only Jagdeo and the victims will know. But in our correspondance I got the picture that no sexual intercourse took place with the other victims. I do not in any way mean to imply that being a child molester is like being gay? But I remember when I was a kid, I never heard the word pedophile, But we were told that homosexuals did sexual things to children. If someone gave candies to cildren in our street, people said he was a homosexual. Bye

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:04:43 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: You are proving I was right to remain silent Message:

You have said so many sick things here on this subject and now you are somehow that if molestation doesn't include intercourse there is no 'harm'?? You know, I should not even respond to you. You do not deserve it. Good luck to your therapist. Please go away.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:53:42 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re your silence to an innocent man Message:

I am also reffering to a a program I watched on TV and one person with a lot of experience, said excactly that. His words was something like this: Sometimes a person gets a hard on in the company of a child(is that the expression)- And no harm is actually done. And sometimes there are accusations of sexual abus of such cases, and it turns to be a big mess by some overeager lawyers and health personell. What this bloke said, when this process start, the child or person really becomes a victim.' I never said or meant that no harm might be done if there is no intercourse: But it does not need to (the bloke said) But the intercourse part is what people think about, when the word pedophile is mentioned, I also think that touching a child might be harmful. Bur not nessessary. But I definitely think intercourse is a lot worse and sickening.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:21:26 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn, PLEASE stop this Message:

I understand what you are referring to in the above posts and in your talk with your therapist, but THIS IS NOT WHAT SUSAN AND ABI ARE TALKING ABOUT. You obviously have no idea of the extent of what Jagdeo did to Abi, or else you are deliberately trying to minimize it. I know her story is told on one of Sir David's pages, and I have heard it via personal e-mail as well. You wrote: But the intercourse part is what people think about, when the word pedophile is mentioned. This is not true, although it may be what YOU think about. Please, PLEASE, stop making excuses for Jagdeo's behavior based on the fact that you think actual intercourse did not take place. Can you imagine how this must feel to the women who were actually abused by him? It makes me pretty sick that you would try and exconerate Jagdeo in this way. I know you were abused personally, but that doesn't mean you are qualified to comment on whether other children who were sexually abused got 'hurt' or not on the basis what sexual acts were performed. It seems far more likely that you just cannot deal with the fact that one of Maharaji's mahatmas was a serial child molester and that NOTHING was done about to prevent his access to children. You have brought up the subject of child abuse on this forum many times, and each time, you have tried to minimize what Jagdeo did to these women. No matter WHAT Susan says, or anyone else says, you still persist in doing this. I can't help but feel that you don't listen to anything anyone says about this issue - in fact, I know that you and I have had this exact same conversation several times. I believe that this is a PERSONAL issue for you - and that it doesn't have much to do with Jagdeo at all. I ask you need to work out your feelings about this ELSEWHERE.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:35:03 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Katie Subject: And Bjorn... (FA's please read this!) Message:

If you do not stop obsessing about this topic on this forum, and if you continue to minimize or rationalize what Abi and Susan have said, I will ask for you to be blocked. Permanently. There are several other people on this forum who were the victims of sexual abuse as children and I can imagine how upsetting your posts must be to them. I also think you are harassing Susan because she has had the courage to speak up about this. I have defended you several times against being called a pedophile here (you have never mentioned this, by the way). I do not think you are a pedophile. I DO think you're obsessed with the topic of pedophilia and that you should NOT try to deal with this on this forum.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:57:07 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Katie Subject: And Kathie... Message:

Well, I am working through or trying to work through my sorrows due to what has happened to me here at the Forum. I am also working to forgive about what happended to me as a child. In my hours with my terapist yesterday, she kind of tried to minimize the damages I got as a child. And she said it was a good thing for me to try to work through things. However I agree that this is definitely not the right place and I realize the only thing I will experience here at this 'non-cultish' site will be pain. I am tempted to send you an email of the correspondances between me and Susan. BTW Susan attacked me, and it felt like a knife in my back. I did not really understand your support, but I thank you for your advices. Bye

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:15:50 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: And Kathie... Message:

Bjorn - (My name is Katie, not Kathie - no 'H', and it's pronounced 'KAY-TEE'.) I don't want to see a copy of the e-mails between you and Susan, reallly. And I do understand why she attacked you - Susan is my friend, and the things you are saying on here are hurting her, not to mention other people on here. Bjorn, this is just not the place to work out your feelings over being abused as a child OR being called a pedophile - if you want to do this on-line and feel that you need an 'understanding place', PLEASE look for another forum or Usenet group specifically devoted to that topic. You are not going to get what you want here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:04:33 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: Jeezuz, I WAS right about Bjorn Message:

I truly believe this sick fucker IS indeed a pedophile. His own words condemn him.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:32:34 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

Bjorn, Child molesters hurt people. They hurt children. And Jagdeo certainly hurt Abi and Susan badly. And there were probably more children he hurt as well, and he had the opportunity to victimize children because of his status in Elan Vital. That's why child molestation is against the law and one goes to prison for it. Being heterosexual or homosexual hurts no one. In most civilized places neither is illegal because there is nothing inherently wrong with either. But by definition child molestation is harmful, criminal activity. It may be harder for people who have psychological problems and are sexually attracted to children, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. And for Maharaji and Elan Vital to be informed that a child molester was in their midst 23 years ago and to do nothing about it, and then, to be informed again last year and do nothing to bring Jagdeo to justice, is, in my opinion, 'harboring' a child molester, harboring a criminal and that's wrong, and anyone in Elan Vital is knows that is going on and does nothing about it, and even covers for it, like Marcia Leitner if that's what she did, is just as personally liable in my opinion, and that is not too harsh, no. Children, especially young children, are powerless against the predations of adults and deserve protection in a civilized society, and Elan Vital and Maharaji should be doing everything they can to prevent that from happening and not just trying to sweep it under the rug.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:02:42 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Joe Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

Joe I agree with you totally. But if you read my post, my point is that some hetros rape, some gays rape. My point is that, after talking to my terapist today, there are many pedophiles that do not harm children. And that the touching that happened to Abi Susan, according to what I talked about today with my terapist, probably did not harm their lives. Like most gays dont harm other people. If you said the word homosexuals in the fifties in my country, you thought about a person who would rape a child or another person. If you hear the word 'pedophile' today, you think of a person who is molesting or raping children. But what I was told, some people, just gets sexually exited. What society is doing is that the people with such tendencies instead of trying to solve their problems, go undercover.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:59:10 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

And that the touching that happened to Abi Susan, according to what I talked about today with my terapist, probably did not harm their lives. I dare you to take your above posts, my post, Abi's posts to your therapist. I think there are very few therapists that would say such a cruel insensitive thing, and that you hear what you want to hear. Say what you want about me, but NEVER NEVER minimize what happened to Abi you sick jerk. I wish I could ban you.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:51 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Susan Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

So here are 2 persons: Both has been sexually abused. One with touching by an adult, the other one by sexual intercours by an older relative. Pretty bad. They correspond. One of them searches for answers. One of thenm suffers, not only because he is falsely acused to be a pedophile himself, but he in fact sees the need to visit a terapist to repair the damages both he had as a child and in the experience of being wrongfully accused of being a pedophile. End of story; After an attempt to understand the truth, the one person says to the other: 'Say what you want about me, but NEVER NEVER minimize what happened to Abi you sick jerk. I wish I could ban you.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:55:45 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: You really are a sad fucker, Message:

I'd suggest coming back here AFTER you've had your threApy

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:54:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: You're gay??!! (nt) Message:

nnnnnnnn

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: And you thought you were the only one.... Message:

You aren't alone around here, Jim and there's Way, too, so now, there's three of us. Have you told Laurie? I'm sure she already knows, though. Women tend to be the first to know. Way and I get a toaster oven for having coverted you, so you will have to fill out a few forms so we can get out prizes. By the way, I find your hard-to-get attitude, hot, hot, hot.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:01:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Touche! .... er, hm, no, take that back! Message:

Cute Joe but, sorry, not cute enough.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:48:01 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:07:11 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt) Message:

I'll have to pack some lovely curtains in with my next box to Jim. By the way Joe, Jim DID profess his love to M Dettmers, and two other guys recently on the forum. Maybe you are on to something!

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:26:51 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: the only one... ? I thought there was only ONE ... Message:

... of those. PS Has anyone mentioned to Lesley that 'Lotus-eater' might refer to M's feet? and incidentally, - me gay? To be honest, not since I discovered women. But it takes all sorts.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:30:18 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: cq Subject: okay CoQ au vin Message:

I always thought 'lotus eater' referred to people who went to the tropics and adopted a 'laid back' lifestyle. Like Gauguin etc and depicted in the movies with lots of sweat and a gin sling in hand. I live in the subtropics, in a valley by a creek, near to the ocean. Though we have taught the local children to swim for twenty years and managed the local swimming pool like a family affair, something we are proud of, and is now sorely missed by the community now that we have been dumped by the council, we still have managed to have a laid back lifestyle, now we are attempting to earn a living as artists!?! (yes you can laugh!) When I chose my moniker, it struck me as very funny because of the double entendre for a premie, kissing lotus feet and indulging in transcendental meditation practices. If I had known of the lesbian possibilities of the name, as you pointed out previously, I probably wouldn't have taken it, because I am not lesbian and it would have been false advertising! PS, nice to hear from someone who's heard of Adharanand. In our K sess, he asked the room (after 1 and a half days satsang) who had heard 8 satsangs or more, a few people went into the other room and then he conducted the session with all the rest of the people which included people I had told the night before, someone tripped out on acid, someone who was busy with his hare krishna beads, etc etc, about 40 of us I guess.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:36:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: You mean I've cooked my goose? Message:

Lesley, I may have led you up the garden path on this one (quite unintentionally though). Someone, somewhen, in the distant foggy fug of my perverse past, told me that 'Lotus Eater' was euphemistic for lesbian. Having done a bit of research since my last post to you, I'm inclined to doubt that. Like, for instance:   ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA Lotus-Eater Greek PLURAL LOTOPHAGOI, Latin PLURAL LOTOPHAGI, in Greek mythology, one of a tribe encountered by the Greek hero Odysseus on the Libyan coast, after a north wind had driven him and his men from Cape Malea. The local inhabitants, whose distinctive practice is indicated by their name, invited Odysseus' scouts to eat of the mysterious plant. Those who did so were overcome by a blissful forgetfulness; they had to be dragged back to the ship and chained to the rowing-benches, or they would never have returned to their duties. The Greeks called several non-narcotic plants lotos, but the name may have been used in this case for the opium poppy, the ripe seed pod of which resembles the pod of the true lotus. The phrase 'to eat lotus' is used metaphorically by numerous ancient writers to mean 'to forget,' or 'to be unmindful.' . . . and these: http://www.webcom.com/shownet/medea/bulfinch/bull29.html http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Lotus.htm http://www.shadowfist.mudservices.com/faction/fac-lotus.html http://www.lotuseaters.net/jfkdad.shtml . . . So I might have been badly mistaken in my inference that your chosen posting name meant what I suggested. Oops. (Incidentally, I was having fun trying to imagine you, not as a lesbian, since your posts gave no indication that you were that way inclined, but more as some sort of 'eater of the Lotus-feet'. Which was an interesting picture. Like some sort of pirhana with a taste for lotus toes (with added cheese?) Ah well. I always thought the Maha should foot the bill. Forgive my misinformation (that is, if I have been misinformed) Perhaps this 'http://www.xenopharmacophilia.com/ee/caerulea.htm'is what it's all about.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:15:57 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: great post Joe (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:25:03 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: All Subject: great posts Joe and Michael (nt) Message:

xxxxxxx

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:05:19 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: macquarie@ozepower.com.au To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned Message:

Dear Michael, Thank you for your post and your responses to questions. I also work as a private consultant in the arena of Organisation Development - I'll leave that for another time though after I get a minute to visit your site. I wanted to empathise, as much as one can on the internet, about getting vitriolic emails. My experience has shown that words alone can provoke very large emotional responses. At a time when I was getting more into responding on the ex-p forum I kept feeling shut down by some creep who remembered me from 15 - 20 years ago. He didn't actually shut me down but emotionally I didn't want to keep dealing with his responses to me. I imagine that emails such as the one you received, are a real piss-off as well as somewhat paranoia-making and possibly quite saddening. Anyway time to get on with my real work of writing a submission for work. Thanks a lot and cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 10:58:56 (GMT) From: [edited] Email: Black Gem- Weasel Will To: Peter Howie Subject: [edited] Message:

Scram, Catweasel. Your harrassing (often with threats) of Pete Howie amuses nobody but yourself. Forum Administrator

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:10:11 (GMT) From: [edited] Email: None To: Petey Subject: [edited] Message:

[edited]

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:54:36 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned Message:

Michael: You're demonstrating that even 'mature' people continue to learn. I've been trying to look around the next corner with a periscope, but perhaps I'll just take a short walk instead. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:05:57 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: On my own scale of human decency... Message:

Micheal has almost earned the maximum number of points and now rates immediately below Johnny Ghandi. Won't anyone dare to blackmail him for the pitbull will get back on its feet.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:54:16 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Yves Subject: Yves, please dont post till after coffee.-nt Message:

sfghs

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:57:20 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: bill Subject: Sfghs yourself Message:

I had coffee. What now? You despise me because I am paranoid. Is that it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:43:56 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Yves Subject: cmon Yves, Message:

I have read you since you got here and your post this morning looked a bit like it was before coffee. I was not one of your better posts. We all have our more focused moments. I couldnt understand your post! That is why I posted:)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:40:19 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: bill Subject: Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke? Message:

'You despise me because I am paranoid?' Got it this once? It works better the other way around. 'It is because I am paranoid that I think you despise me.' Just a joke from a regular weirdo. By the way, you shouldn't worry too much about my feelings. I ain't got any of the kind which get hurt. That's what I got from being the teasing kind. Thanks for caring, but don't worry.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:11:20 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Yves Subject: Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke? Message:

Hi Yves, I guess coffee was on my mind because I just quit a couple days ago and I am still waiting to feel ok! It does take a couple days of withdrawal when you have been a junkie for a while. People say 'did you have to?' They cant imagine a reason to quit. It does take some disipline, the stuff is everywhere!

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:00:22 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: bill Subject: That being cleared, I love to argue. Message:

That being cleared, I love to argue and trade abusive insults with anyone who doesn't get easily offended. For lack of a better choice, I, from time to time, speak my mind about some 'villainous abominable misleader of youth' who gets offended as easily as Miss Piggy does.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:04:11 (GMT) From: U2? Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: It's a beautiful day. Message:

Ground Hog Day? Ghostbusters?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 10:36:56 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Please explain to me, Micheal Message:

If a man talks about a person, and he says he is a really nice guy, - that is fine. And then later the same man talks about the same person and says he is a bad guy. What will be the conclusion? You cant know for sure if this person is nice or bad. But you will definitely know that the man who tells this is a liar. You wrote: 'Now I am being “warned” to do the safe thing as well. Back–off, they say, or we will make the lies that were spread about you on the ex-premie websites seem like kids play by comparison. Your playing with the “Boss” now Michael not some ex-premie losers'. I did not find this in the e-mail to you. Did you make it up? Or did I miss something? When did the one weirdo become 'we'? Are you aware of that Jean Michel once posted a 'recent satsang' by Maharaji from india. I think it was 'only' about 10 years old. Are you also aware of that if Anth would have acted 'not safe' there would have been a chance that Jagdeo could have been in prison or charged for touching Susan / Abi 20 years ago. You also wrote in your post: 'I would much rather be known as someone who come down on the side of those who exposed Maharaji and his cult for what it is, than to be thought of as the apologist whose silence was bought and paid for.' Even if you previously told the agreement had not any really important issues (i.e. no major scandals), it sounds to me now like your silence was bought and paid for, (not everyone sell themselves). So where does that place you: A person who sells himselves, then lies about it, lies about it again and then breaks a signed agreement. Thus someone can face the fact that you are a person they cant trust. Sorry, but whatever you tell now, you will lack credibility.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:29:43 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: God, Bjorn! Message:

If a man talks about a person, and he says he is a really nice guy, - that is fine. And then later the same man talks about the same person and says he is a bad guy. What will be the conclusion? You cant know for sure if this person is nice or bad. But you will definitely know that the man who tells this is a liar. I'm sorry fella but you really are shockingly stupid. Have you ever heard of someone changing their mind? Is that the same as lying to you? God, what an idiot!

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:05:17 (GMT) From: billorn Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I disagree. Message:

You start and finish your post with talk about his credibility. After rereading your first part, it is clear that you didnt do your homework in reading and comprehending his posts and thier progress. He has worked on the credibility issue here and by now he has gained it with those of the forum that demand it the most. You had a chance to cover this issue earlier but now it is done.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:41:35 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: wow. Message:

I just got back from a much needed trip out of town and away from the forum. I am so sorry this happened to you Michael. I am so impressed with the way you are handling it though. I read it and shouted 'YEAH!!!!' and jumped out of my chair and punched the air. I am very proud to count you among my friends. Great, powerful post. I am all smiles. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 08:12:33 (GMT) From: bill (b) Email: None To: Susan Subject: 'wow!' was my first response also. Message:

'our lord' had a theory on 'fear'. He said 'fear turns to love'. He did and does run a fear based control empire and threats and withering blasts of verbal abuse and intensity are some of his 'tools' as he also put it. He also did say that when the perfect master yells, 4 things happen. First, you go into shock Then you lose control of your body Then you lose conciousness If he keeps yelling, you die. The Canadian instructor, STILL in EV, told how Guru Maharaj ji said that and I heard him. I remember he told it when he was telling us about how during a 'festival', he was one of the people watching the Lord's kids up on some balcony in some hotel. He had Hansi sitting on the balcony rail with his legs dangling off. The lord saw him doing that down below and when he got to the room, went to the balcony and started yelling before the instructor even moved Hansi off the edge. (I thought at the time that doing THAT was risky- but, he IS the lord so...) Security grabbed the kid and m went into a blistering yelling session. I remember, it was Brian McDermott. He also said that Brian was not to be around the kids again. When our lord was young, he used to hear his father yell and his memory was that everyone just froze. Like father like son. Breaking out of fear and programming is somehow laced with some kind of glorious, very real, emergence of a fresh dawn worthy of song. Some claim erroneously that the forum is negative. In the forum Archives are moments of personal triumph and emergence. I have not seen truth do harm in this subject. I would have stood no chance without those that stood up for truth here. My life would have been unrecoverable. You know the story that is told about someone who is tossing starfish back into the sea and someone else says 'there are too many, you cant make a difference', the other person then says 'well, I made a difference for that one! and this one.' What our lord keeps hidden always from his 'lovers' is his personal behaviour. That is exactly what needs to come out into the light of day. For others and also, actually, for him. In Opera, sometimes Courage gets called to center stage. However hard the truth, a look at the audience shows why it is necessary. Only the deepest secrets brought to light will free those that are deepest caught. 'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:17:30 (GMT) From: A Friend Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976 Message:

Dear Micheal, Do you remember Denver 1976? When 25 of the richest premies in Canada and the U.S. were invited to the 'lotus feet'? to cover the debt incurred from the Astrodome event? Yes they actually made a list. Hate to ask this but were you one of the people involved in getting that list together? One poor girl gave all of her inheritance - $250,000, a lot of money in those days, much to her parents chagrin. When asked for another donation that day she replied 'It's all gone.' I remember another 'rich kid' in the U.K. doing the same thing a little earlier in the 1970's with his large 'old money' inheritance including a beautiful farmhouse in the North of Scotland which was given over to Divine Light Mission as an ashram and later sold I believe.This person is now penniless also. Easy come easy go I guess meanwhile Maharaji and Raja Ji were raking it in and still are from other little rich kids on their way through time. With good investments the money Thanks for doing what you're doing. It made me sick too when I recently asked about Jagdeo and was told he was a little under the weather due to old age but that he was doing fine in India.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:12:39 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: None To: A Friend Subject: 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976 Message:

I'm embarrassed to admit that I did help organize that special fundraising event and, as a former national coordinator of DLM in Canada at the time, I'm sure I suggested names to the list of invitees. Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:29:55 (GMT) From: A Friend Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: 25 Richest Premies in N. America 1976 Message:

Thanks for being so honest. We only have our integrity and I would say about 95% of Elan Vital and other premies have now almost lost theirs. Sad but true. A Friend

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:06:37 (GMT) From: me Email: None To: A Friend Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994 Message:

I heard charanand speak in 94 and there was only only one time when he laughed and it was when he was relating the story of a girl he had met recently and she had donated the proceeds of her inheritance, which was a house sale in Denver. According to him it was 150000 dollars. He thought it was halarious that she now didnt have enough money to go to the event in Miami. Really, I could not understand why in the world that was so funny. I didnt hear him wrong at all. He laughed hard twice during the telling of it and then said a comment and the gist of it was, that she was dumb to give away all her money.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:25:55 (GMT) From: A Friend Email: None To: me Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994 Message:

Dear Me, Where were you in 1994 when Charanand laughed at that poor girl?She will always be kicking herself for doing that. Charanand always said that you become like the company you keep and he really has turned into a heartless, selfish, materialistic little creep just like his master. These days he wants nothing but the best like all these other creppy instructors going around. (Belkis and Sandy excepted) They have managed to keep their dignity in my opinion or it maybe just wishful thinking as I haven't seen them for a while. It's sad that these poeple who say do as I say not as I do have had such an effect on many many people. A Friend

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:48:41 (GMT) From: me Email: None To: A Friend Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994 Message:

It was in Hartford Conn. The year might be 93, 94 or 95. My guess was 94 I am afraid you are out of date as far as belkis is concerned. We had a few posts here complaining of him and his approach to the aspirants. Actually it was premies complaining about him.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:37:07 (GMT) From: A Friend Email: None To: me Subject: Belkis is female - silly! Message:

Out of date you're out to lunch........only kidding. A Friend

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:20:46 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: me Subject: Is this you, Bill? (nt) Message:

ffff

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:16:29 (GMT) From: A Friend Email: None To: me Subject: charanand finds it funny in 1994 Message:

Dear Me, Charanand is so materialistic these days.( I could relate an incident re this but I would probably be outed) I would say he has become greedy like the Master. He always told me you become like the company you keep and now he has. That was awful yet believable that he laughed at the girl who gave a house to M. Especially after encouraging her to do this. After seeing him recently it almost like his emotions are turned off. He certainly lacks any compassion. In his pink robes and with shaved head and smiley face he always looked the epitome of kindness and purity now he just seems like a disillusioned old man. Charanand if you are reading this I'm sorry but it's about time you came clean and faced the fact that you have been involved in a money making,hierarchical cult. I think you are hanging in there because you are dependent on M to survive financially. Best Wishes to you, A Friend These guys have a lot to account for and I salute Micheal Dettmers for telling the truth. One thing M has said that is true is that children lie because when they tell the truth they get in trouble from their parents. We are not children and we should tell the truth even if it might mean trouble. Your Friend

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:02:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Seeing through Charanand was a big drip for me Message:

I remember living in Calgary, my last stop on the train to nowhere, when Charanand came to town once or twice. This would be in the very late 70's, maybe even 1980, my last year in. I don't have to tell anyone what it was like having him in town. It must have been the same everywhere. Everyone got all warm and fuzzy like we were in a Spielberg movie about 'God Realization (Hindu-style) in America'. All real-life community grudges, conflicts and day-to-day doldrums were brushed under the rug. No one wanted mahatma ji to see how we really were. Mahatma Gurucharanand made me feel dirty. Why? Well, for one reason, when I played tennis with him a couple of times, I wanted to win. Now there I am with a God-realized soul who's there, at that moment, really, for one reason and one reason alone: to teach me to surrender to my Guluploopydoopy and yet, even after reading all of Tim Gallwey's glossy bullshit, I'm still out for blood. How gross! And there's Mahatma Ji giving it HIS all and that only made things worse. I soon detected that this little fucker with his flying carpet salesman smile wanted to win every bit as much as I did. What did I think? I didn't know WHAT to think? Was he mirroring my impurity? No, by then I was tiring of all these frantic, turbo-charged rationalizations (sorry, shp). I saw what was really going on and that was -- yes, it's true -- Mr. Holy Pants wasn't anymore detached than I was! So now I had a secret. It was like I'd found a skin magazine under Mahatma Ji's altar. He was just like I was. Okay, that was during the day. At night, like an old stripper who knows her audience loves her, not only like there's no tomorrow but even like there's no today, Mahatma Ji put on his makeup and did satsang. And here's where it got really bad. I started getting so terribly tired of his boring music, his boring stories and his boring voice. Instead, I wanted to play my premie songs (yes, I know), tell my dumb-ass make-'em-up-on-the-spot, it's-like-an-orange 'stories' and hear my boring voice. Well, actually that's not really fair to me either. Sure, I wanted to sing a few songs like I always did but it was more a matter of wanting to hear anyone but Mahatma Ji. I turned surly. The more people deteriorated into Happy Clappers, showing no signs of anything but premie mushroomhood ('Oh Mahatma Ji! Another song, please! Sing the same one you always sing but just make it a little longer this time!), the more I started to think bad thoughts. Before too long it started to show. I stopped smiling that Extra Effort smile that lit up on everyone's face when Mahatma Ji was in town. I started to smirk and grimace. Soon, I was virtually shoving it in Mahatma Ji's face. I'd actually look forward to opportunities to stare him down or, if not that (I was still in the cult, don't forget) give him a pointedly UNhappy Clapper look. I feel gred jwah knowing that my cold shoulder -- from an ashram premie, no less - made him uneasy. This is a small story. I know it. But what the hell, I'm sitting at home waiting for a call.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:20:30 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: What's your number? I'll call nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:03:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: What's your number? I'll call nt Message:

Actually, Carol, I was waiting for a telephone pre-trial conference with a judge. But sure, I'm still here for a bit: (250) 360-1040

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:50:10 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good conversation Message:

Food for thought. But I thought about the word 'valid' that you looked up. The Oxford Dic. definition said something like well-grounded and justifiable and I conceded that I had not used the word to mean that exactly so perhaps it wasn't the right word. The Webster's I have reads, for the def. #1) having legal efficacy or force, then 2) well-grounded and justifiable, and 3) appropriate to the end in view, or effective, as in 'the valid tool for the job.' So the use I intended was not necessarily the 1st on in the dictionary but was 'valid' for the meaning I intended, but the word itself is a distraction to you, I think, if I use it 'incorrectly'; especially when I made a point that you disagreed with...something about one person's faith being as valid as another's. And when speaking about the faith or belief of a person how does one person judge what is valid : effective or well-grounded (as judged by one's personal experience), workable (to the individual) for the appropriate end in view)?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:46:06 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: Whatever, Carol! WhatEVER....... Message:

Carol, I know how inclined you are to find some breathing space for your friends in the cult but the fact is that faith in Maharaji (as a Perfect Master), on any level, for any reason, is never valid. And yes, the words matter. Words got you into this mess and word's will get you out.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:27:01 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned...your courage is inspiring.... Message:

Michael-I'll be brief, as I am sure you are busy. I was wondering if you had read my post from a few days ago. I was hoping you would respond. Your recent posts are responses that encourage me, and are probably better than anything that you could have written to explain your position on various things. I feel that you are doing the right thing, an honest thing, and something that requires and shows great courage. Thank you for being you, La-ex

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 14:35:56 (GMT) From: michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: la-ex Subject: I've been warned...your courage is inspiring.... Message:

I read your post but it disappeared before I had a chance to respond. You can e-mail it to me at above address so that you don't have to re-post it. Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:13:47 (GMT) From: Anon Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned Message:

That 'warning' is a sad inditement of the desperateness with which some premies cling to their world. To speak honestly is threatening. The so-called Great Truth is threatened by a few honest folks honest experiences. That's sad. Premies seem so loving until you question the unquestionable. don't they? Then they show their teeth. The sad thing is they are just copying their Master's example of intimidation. You wrote: never underestimate the amount of fear that he engenders in everyone who is close to him or functions in an important position, especially the mahatmas from India. Yes, from the relatively small amount of time I spent in close proximity to Maharaji, although he was always quite pleasant to me personally,(quite held-back/shy I thought) it bothered me that he did nothing to discourage the premies around at that time, from being so obviously intimidated and precious. I observed this on many occasions. I was so sad because I had hoped that it would be different around Maharaji. Even fun. It certainly appeared to me that it suited him to garner a level of respect from premies that was very obviously tainted with fear. The only people he seemed really natural with were his immediate family- and everyone sickenly froze to attention when they came into the room too. Mind you, from the way Maharaji spoke to us in Satsangs, coming on like he was the Divine Authority, it was not surprising that we were running scared. (remember Kissimee ashram meeting?) I still have a pet grudge for David Smith who managed to make me feel very depressed when he interviewed me for the ashram. Maharaji didn't need to do much intimidating with people like him on the firm doing it for him very effectively! I remember in Rome Maharaji told the ashram premies, privately, that we were his most valued disciples (or something like that). It's all very fine saying that but he basically just imprisoned us as far as I can see, using the fact that we believed his every word to control us with fear, not love. Of course most of us were sympathetic to the notion that God was analagous to a Father figure, because of our religious upbringings. As premies we thought that he was like a father who gets angry with his kids and chides them from love, and who even fills them with fearful stories of the dangers that await them if they don't do as he says. Anyway Maharaji was not, is not and never will be our father. Since I have my own children I can see that the kind of commitment, care and love I have for them makes Maharaji's former commitment to us ashram premies seem non-existant. I dare say I would sacrifice my life for my children. I hardly think that Maharaji even knew the names of 1 per cent of ashram premies, let alone worried about what became of them. As one of those premies who spent years being in Maharaji's Ashram experiment I am therfore very, very interested to hear about what M's attitude was towards it. It actually occurred to me for the first time, after reading your post, that it would not be unreasonable that Maharaji donate some of his vast wealth to us who gave all our money to him for some years. Maharaji thinks that his work 'saving' people is so important and that his wealth is justified for whatever reasons. He is clearly so consumed with the 'perfectness' of it all, that he considers even his mistakes as being 'perfect'. All the same, it doesn't say much about his 'caring' for his totally committed ashram followers that he never offered them any real help in the Real world. Nor any explanation. He never really addressed the issue squarely. I have the impression that he would have liked to have brushed the matter under the carpet. When I see how premies still struggle financially, and how they still willingly support Maharaji who lives in luxury, I am at a loss. I am sorry that they have suffered materially. I am all for making sacrifices to good causes but I am very suspicious that Maharaji's 'gift of knowledge' is just another religious trap, offering contentment but at a price- total dependance on him. There are so many things that point to cultic behaviour that I no longer trust him. How I ever let myself be so robbed of my time I do not know. I found the so-called spiritual life deadly boring and unfulfilling. As a young man I kind of felt that my life was over before it had really begun. I was condemned to living this dreary lifestyle just because he said it was so important to do so. There was the fear of disobedience or what would happen if I got into the 'world' etc. All those fears constantly impressed upon us by Maharaji himself, over and over again. Crazy. Luckily I managed to resurrect my life when I left. I am glad faced my fears and got on with life, shedding my beliefs. It's hard trusting someone who puts you through that kind of stuff. I would rather live in ignorance than follow someone who scares me even if he is God. In fact my feelings are honestly that God can fuck off and die if he's not kind. I'd rather be snuffed outforever than have to spend eternity cow-towing in some Old-Testament God's Court. All I know now is that I am learning far more about life, than I ever did stagnating in Maharaji's limiting world. I am sorry that it turned out to be a con . Sometimes I feel radically motivated, through some sense of social responsiblity and justice to campaign against this sort of cultism. That is why I write here quite often. Now, coming up to 44 and with some considerable hindsight, I can see that fear is truly something to beware of in life. Basically I backed off from Maharaji's influence because I grew to recognise how intimidated I too had become, and I really needed to get real. Sound like you have done the same. Good for you Michael for not being intimidated by the sort of threat that this abominable creature of a premie has sent you. I am impressed with your integrity and I sympathise with your position. Only good can come from honesty. That to me is more inspiring than anything else. It would be really sad if you allowed this sort of evil nonsense to get to you. I am glad that you feel that any confontation that has been presented to you by the ex-premies has been largely healthy, I underwent a similar catharsis since I have had the fortune to be friends with, and work with, intelligent and people who judge me frankly, sometimes brutally so. I have learned that ones critics are often ones most helpful friends. Maharaji, surrounded by sycophants, presumably does not have the advantage of such company. Writing your journey would be I'm sure very liberating. Mine was. It would also of course be liberating to others. As a once privvy officer to His Majesty your story is bound to be interesting. Take it from me that there are a lot of borderline premies who get their 'Satsang' from this site. I know a number of people myself who find that the words honestly written here ring truer than the lofty hyperbole that they hear from the Maharaji Channel (featuring Maharaji and Maharaji and more Maharaji..as host and guest) . Anyway I just wanted to support your decision to express yourself honestly and openly. No harm can come of it - only good for everbody. Anyone who can shed some light on the obscure goings-on in M's world is doing a grand thing.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:16:01 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Anon Subject: I agree, multiply. Message:

And hello Anon! I appreciated your contact in the past. email? rbruce@teleport.com Carol

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:04:46 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Anon Subject: I've been warned Message:

Anon: The only people he seemed really natural with were his immediate family- and everyone sickenly froze to attention when they came into the room too. You know, this reminds me of nothing so much as the familial relationships of a dictator, mafioso, or drug lord. There's a new British documentary about Saddam Hussein. I've only seen the trailers, but it looks hauntingly familiar. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:46:17 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Anon Subject: questioning the unquestionable Message:

You are on the mark on that one Anon it's quite amazing to watch these premies go rabid when questioned. ESPECIALLY if you are still technically a premie in their eyes. I had a few go beserk when I mentioned finding this site and the Bob Mishler interview in particular. From a distance it's amusing to watch their pretense crumble but it is quite scary also to see the violent emotions surface in the so called loving brothers and sisters.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:44:11 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Guess what. Message:

if you try to send to MurrrayB@netscape.net [mailto:MurrrayB@netscape.net] there is nobody there. So as I mentioned above 1. Michael Dettermes became a nonbrainer during the weekend. (He used to be able to write pretty elegant and intelligent. Even if enlish is not my native language, I see suddently that Micheal is not writing correctly english) 2. This post is a fraud? So FA, is this a post sent under a false name or what? Yves?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:59:35 (GMT) From: Forum Admistrator Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Guess what. Message:

Bjorn, you ask: So FA, is this a post sent under a false name or what? Reading through Michael Dettmer's posts leads me to suspect the work of one hand only: that of Michael Dettmers himself. If only the identity of every forum poster were as trustworthy...

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:15:42 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Forum Admistrator Subject: Thanks FA Message:

So for Micheals sake I hope his sudden inadequate ability to express himself properly in the English language is due to a temporary brain damage. I suppose most people who would receive such a stupid mail, probably would laugh. (if they were 'clean') Or if they took it seriously, I assume they would act differently than Micheal did.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:34:35 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: what are you talking about Bjorn?! Message:

I don't see anything wrong with the English usage in Michael's post - and the style is the same with his usual style. Are you by chance talking about the quoted text of the e-mail he received? He didn't write that - if you haven't figured it out! By the way, if I got an e-mail like that, I would become VERY angry. In fact, ex-premie.org DOES get e-mails like that, and Brian often posts them on the forum. I'm glad Michael posted this one. You didn't 'laugh' when you were falsely accused of being a pedophile on this forum - how do you think someone else would feel when confronted with the same situation? You are really off the wall here, and you are making yourself look stupid, Bjorn.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:05:59 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Katie Subject: I am just feeling Kathie! Message:

Well Kathie. Maybe I am wrong. When I was in Denver I had great respect for Michael Dettmers. Even if I only was a janitor at the office building I also enjoyed reading his letters and always sensed an intellingent man with integrity. I also thought he was a very good writer. For some reason, in the last 2 mails Micheal sent, I got an impression that the intelligence I used to find in Micheals writing, (even from the old days) seemed to have vanished. There also seemed to be no consistency in his thinking. As for me, I suppose there is a difference, I am innocent of the allogations you mention, but people seemed to believe this about me. And I dont think anyone would like to be in the spotlight of such false allogations. Micheal on the other hand, if he acted in silence and did not contradict himself like he has done, I think he still would have my respect.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:15:54 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Try Vitamin C Message:

Bjorn: For some reason, in the last 2 mails Micheal sent, I got an impression that the intelligence I used to find in Micheals writing, (even from the old days) seemed to have vanished. There also seemed to be no consistency in his thinking. I submit that this is the effect of magical thinking. You perceive as 'intelligent' only those ideas that agree with your priors, or that muddy the waters sufficiently that your priors aren't challenged. Perhaps what Michael says is a bit less 'circuitous,' and you percieve anything that is direct as 'stupid.' It is more direct, but the syntax is virtually identical to his earlier posts. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:17:04 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: you are? tsk tsk take that stuff over to AG Message:

sorry 'Kathie' (hey the one time he lowered himself to answer me he called me susan. Not that I don't like Susan.) And why would you have wanted MD to be silent?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:52:07 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Selene Subject: you are? tsk tsk take that stuff over to AG Message:

Hi Selene When I first read Micheals post, I sent an email to him asking if he really had sent it. I could not beliieve it. I suppose I used to be a admirer of MD from the old days, and I could not recognize the Micheal who wrote this stuff. I never got a reply. I never got a reply to the questions I emailed Michael some days ago. Believe it or not but I have an urge to find out the truth about things. I would not have wanted Micheal to be silent. I still think it is strange he exposes himself in this way.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 06:53:26 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I got a reply to one today...maybe there is a good Message:

reason you did not?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 11:16:20 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Carol Subject: probably there is several reasons why Michael Message:

dont reply. Well I sent him an email the 12th. I thanked for his posting, but also said I was afraid if he did not say something really negative about Mahraraji, he would never be acceptet her at the Forum. Seems like a spot on comment. But I challenged him re a FAQ statement I disagree with him. I also wished him a happy life and said I dont understand the hatred towards Maharaji and premies. Nex one shortly after this tread appeared, I asked if he really wtote this. I would never have imagined him to do so. Due to the respect I used to have for him (beeing a premie or a nonpremie), I kind of comfort myself with the idea that he must have been drunk or something.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:00:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Your brain is useless, Bjorn -- sell it for parts Message:

...if he did not say something really negative about Mahraraji, he would never be acceptet her at the Forum. Seems like a spot on comment. It seems like an extremely trite comment and useless for the purpose you intend. Of course, cult apologists are challenged and confronted here. But that's not to say that people criticize the cult here in order to be 'acceptet' (have you met Tami, by chance? -- forget it, Bjorn. That was a joke. Tami is also brain-dead. Mind you, she's not real like you.) The problem with your thinking is that it assumes that Michael, or anyone for that matter, cares about being 'acceptet' here. So much so that he'd say pretty much anything. That's stupid. You're stupid. But your next sleep-walking drivel is most revealing: Nex one shortly after this tread appeared, I asked if he really wtote this. I would never have imagined him to do so. Again, for the last time, and just to put your little bird-brain to rest, I and several others here know Michael a bit. I talked to him on Sunday and, guess what? We discussed his recent posts including the ones you can't possibly deal with. Now, what is it, Bjorn? Am I lying about this? How low do you have to go? Actually, you show how low you'll go with this last line: Due to the respect I used to have for him (beeing a premie or a nonpremie), I kind of comfort myself with the idea that he must have been drunk or something. Look at what you're admitting! Really, Bjorn, it's tiem for you to wake up. Hee you are expressly admitting that you'll do anything, no matter how stupid, to avoid the truth! The truth here is that Dettmers has said some things that you can't handle. So what do you do? You pretend that you have an excuse to think he was drunk. This is the height of intellectual cowardice, Bjorn. And yes, that 's just what it looks like. Cowardice and dishonesty. I can assure you that Michael wasn't the least bit 'drunk' when I talked to him. So there. Deal with it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:52:35 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: exposes himself what way? Message:

It's all strange for us when we post here and reveal things about our real identities. It's hard not hiding under an anonymous fake name. It's a lot to ask of anyone. But I don't understand what you mean by the statement that he is 'exposing himself in this way.' I have doubts about a lot of anonymous posts here but I do assume that if someone is using their real name, both first and last that they must be at least themselves. I can't question their motives because I don't know and have no way of knowing anyone's motives. Most of the time. Use of someone's name in a public place like this would be noticed by the 'real' Michael or others if he were not the real Michael posting. So why would anyone bother faking it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:06:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: The only 'exposure' is Bjorn's Message:

Selene, This game is called 'desperation'. Frankly, good cult member that he is, Bjorn has no idea how to process Dettmers' comments. For now, he'll do anything, strike out any which way, flail like an idiot, just to buy himself a little time. Soon a bit of scuttlebut will circulate in premie communities about Michael. It doesn't have to be very strong, it can be really just about anything. (After all, look how idiotic this typical premie's makeshift defense is: Dettmers isn't Dettmers!). Michael will be discreditied like Mishler was. How? It's easy. Just take a look at Bill Murray's email to Michael for some idea of what kind of nonsense they'll try. But, funny thing, that'll be just enough somehow to plug up the holes. It's like The Truman Show. They don't have to plug up the holes in the fake sky all that carefully because it's not as if the residents want to examine it closely. On the other hand, many premies will pause to think for just a little too long about this. They will make a point of reading Dettmers' reasons themselves and will even take the dangerous step of scrutinizing his defamation by the cult (however 'low key' it may be). They'll get confused and may even crack. Lucky them.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:15:03 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Truman Show it is Message:

Yesterday Anon called it questioning the unquestionable. I wouldn't trade anything I have gone through these last couple years since I questioned. I feel like someone turned up the amps and I learned and got back about 10 lost years. And M said Him and K would burn up karma. HA!! gotta go for a while.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:39:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn, you are thicker than wood Message:

Sorry, bud, but you really do seem kind of slow. Are you okay? (Hm, stupid question. How would he know?)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 17:40:30 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Norwegian Wood' = compliment! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 06:03:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: cute (nt) Message:

kkkkk

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:30:21 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: the dogs, the beautiful day Message:

Thanks, Michael, for going 'public' (in a small, online, but apparently important to EV, way)about your disillusionment with the Prem Pal way. Those of us on the ex-premie forum, like you, are more involved with our families, our jobs, our pets, and the beauty of an autumn day than we are with Maharaj Ji's cult. However, we feel that it is important that those of us who know the truth about this supposedly 'spiritual' organization speak up. My voice is important, but yours is even more important, because...you knew the guy! I was just a distant worshipper. I can speak about the dynamics of our Hindu-lite theology, but I can only speculate about the Man himself. So thanks for speaking out. EV's response speaks volumes.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:35:32 (GMT) From: P-man Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: very impressive nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:43:57 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: P-man Subject: Hear! Hear! nt Message:

very impressive indeed

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:32:04 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned Message:

Mike: I must say that I am shocked, but not surprised. Ironically, that email from Bill Murrray (sic, I guess) exposes and confirms the cult-ness of EV more than anything any one of us could hope to say ourselves. I applaud you for not assuming the position, which they obviously are hoping to make you do, but they forget that when one leaves Maharaji/EV/the cult mindset, one's backbone returns to its upright position, never to bend in obeisance to a false master again. For what it's worth, you certainly have my support. Thank you, Bill Murrray, I'm sure you've made Maharaji and his many minions proud. I leave you with this apt quote from George Orwell: 'In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.' Monmot

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:03:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I love you, Mike Message:

Okay, maybe it's not love. Maybe I just like a good time. But, holy moly, these guys are so funny! Some of the things that Murray's threatening you with are a joke but others are clearly actionable as defamatory or interference with business relations. And yes, that's even if they're 'good faith' criticisms. Unlike the Hamster, you are not a public figure and, as any good libel lawyer will tell you, your rights in that regard are greater than his. One thing you could do, by the way, if you haven't already thought of this, is simply send Murray's email to his server with an explanatory note. If you like, I'll even do it for you. With a proper explanation, they'll cancel his account in no time and will probably let you know who he is as well. But, really, in the court of public opinion, any of you premies reading this, wake up! Look what you're part of! If you thought $cientology was vile, as I know most of us did, note how your cult is following suit. Disgusting, isn't it? After all, what exactly is it Dettmers said that warrants this kind of attack? You know, it's not like he's responsible for the tittie picture of Maharaji over on Roger's blasphemous site. He's pretty much assiduously avoided dissing any real the fucker a fat, greasy Hamster. All he did was try to tell his story. You know, a little company of truth .... And is this the reception that every PAM can look forward to if they break the code of embarrassed, self-serving silence Maharaji thinks he's locked them up with? Too much. Too fucking much. Okay, Michael -- a couple of other things. You might want to email -- and possibly snail mail, double-registered -- a copy of Murray's email to EV -- AND Maharaji -- and ask if they endorse this position. And there was something else ... I forgot .....

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:22:18 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: I love you, Mike Message:

Jim: One thing you could do, by the way, if you haven't already thought of this, is simply send Murray's email to his server with an explanatory note. If you like, I'll even do it for you. With a proper explanation, they'll cancel his account in no time and will probably let you know who he is as well. I can't imagine that they'd do either. They cancel spammers but will generally not take the risk of interfering with any non-spam emailer for fear of being sued. Still, you might get lucky. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:12:04 (GMT) From: Jim uses the 'L' word! Email: None To: Jim Subject: EV doesn't 'endorse'. Look at jagdeo-nt Message:

gjeee

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:53:13 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: MICHAEL,I STAND AND SALUTE YOU.HONORS TO YOU. Message:

with this declaration, I not only drop all reservations I was still holding about your genuineness, I have a profound new respect for you as a man. Your courage is exemplary. Would that Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon have had your integrity. this murrray character ( with 3 's in his name, no less) has given his email address. we all have the use of it now. I suggest a research campaign of our own. WhoWhere may have him. Jim Heller--you have the Law experience. As our Attorney General, you have our confidence in your abilties, in all matters legal, regarding this new development. What say you, counselor? As for me, Michal, I don't have nearly as much to lose, ('after they took from me ,everything, they could ste-alllllll'), but I stand with you, with whatever I've got to render. How vote the rest of you?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:32:23 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: Warning: this is getting unanimous. Message:

MD may well be human for all I know. Would you please set the record straight and have him fart in an elevator please. We don't need another perfect human, a hero or a saint. A regular jerk would do just as well.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:33:38 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Who is Bill Murray - anybody..? Message:

(Somebody must know him.) Anyway, thanks Michael for this post and your previous messages. I avoided joining in with what looked (at the time) like knee-jerk expressions of gratitude, remembering my dislike of hierarchies of status within the cult and - as somebody else noted - feeling there should be nothing similar going on here among exes. Also I had one or two suspicions about whether you were truly entering this discussion in good faith. Happily those doubts have pretty well dissipated and I think your present open stance is very healthy, and the information you have given will help many ex-premies understand their former 'Master' a bit better, his real-life priorities and social relationships (or lack thereof). How long-term premies will feel about your revelations, I have no idea, though as a premie I was totally immune to Mishler's defection simply assuming the guy to be some arrogant self-publicist who was now terminally 'in his head'. Anyway, I have to say I am very encouraged by what looks like some ruthless honesty on your part - and to be so honest about yourself in public must take some doing - and also by your resolve not to be intimidated. If anything, it is your mysterious correspondent who appears frightened. Frightened by facts he would prefer not to have to acknowledge. Best wishes, Nigel

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:23:12 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Who is Bill Murray - anybody..? Message:

Nigel: As everyone knows Bill Murray was one of the original SNL cast, in Caddyshack I & II, Stripes, American Buffalo, and quite possibly the best movie ever made: Groundhog Day. Where have you been? --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:26:09 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: It's Murrray, not Murray (likely a pseudonym) nt. Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:43:36 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Katie Subject: 'Murrray', NOT 'Murray' ...? - bewildered.. Message:

Wrong pronunciation or something? Sorry, I'm English ;)

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:09:03 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Perhaps he couldn't get an email account... Message:

under Murray because it was already taken, so he added an extra 'r.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:50:21 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Aha! - the three 'r's - I get you... Message:

Over here the three 'r's (reading 'riting and 'rithmetic) are the basics of a proper education. Could be a coded message that MD has made an enemy of a formidable mind. (Or then again, just a typo..)

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:27:50 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: It's a trrroll (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:30:12 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Who is anybody? Message:

The FAs have a distinct advantage here in being able to validate posts, at least to some extent. But thanks Michael. And Bill Murray since you obviously read this site, come on out and give your opinions of this thread. I think threatening someone in email is basically illegal not to mention a chicken shit approach.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:32:34 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Selene Subject: I still say he's a premie... Message:

well, maybe not.

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