Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 19:26:15 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The buck stops ... where? Message:

Cynth, I know the anger needs directing, but where? Do you know of anyone who took 'knowledge' directly as a result of your satsanging them? Would they now blame you for that? We were all brainwashed at that time. Michael Dettmers too, no doubt. Where should the buck stop though? With the single person who started the whole show? And who was that? Shri Hans? Could it be that the Maha himself has been brainwashed into thinking he's to be something special, all because his daddy wanted to make a mark on the world? If so, then he's as much a puppet as the rest of us were (and we're ALL still accountable for what we've done, no matter how much the Maha might like to palm his own responsibility off). I respect your feelings. And this might be the wrong time to 'play' devil's advocate (if so, feel free to sound off at me). But somehow we've got to get to the root of this trip.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 22:00:06 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: cq Subject: To cq... Message:

Dear cq, Where does the buck stop? Always goomraji. I don't know how to explain what I do to 'direct' my anger toward the appropriate party. It's something I have learned through lots and lots of self-discovery, evaluation, re-evaluation and learning to be an adult and act accordingly. When I slip and fall and rage I have learned I must go back and make amends. That may seem too simple or an excuse. I'm still learning and, I'm in a spiritual crisis at present. Plus, I'm a human. There must have been a tiny red flag inside of me while I practiced k and worshipped M because I never brought anyone to K and M. Not a one. In fact, deep down I felt an embarrassment to be following a guru, while also feeling shame for not being able to 'propagate' which was supposedly M's main agya to us. I didn't recognize it at the time, but now I can put a name on it. While in the ashram I was never allowed near aspirants in the aspirant programs because I always ended up talking about his lotus feet and kissing them, while the aspirant coordinators would be giving me the kill sign at the back of the room. Same for intro programs. I was never involved with aspirants, not allowed to. Look, I have a right to have feelings, we all do. Whether or not my 'radar' was reading incorrectly, I sensed a bit of hero worship with the appearance of Dettmers revelations. It triggered me, okay? I know he was in the cult, too. Blame goes directly to the rawats, the whole lot of them, but in the context of prem pal and us, he is now an adult and owes us an explanation. Do I think we'll get one from him? No. Michael has contributed much information that validates this. Goomraji cares about no one but himself. Maybe that was the trigger. Actually reading those words from Michael, knowing how for so long I have wanted that validation and boom! I shot the messenger. Not to mention the grief of knowing that someone I loved so dearly betrayed me. You asked: But somehow we've got to get to the root of this trip. I agree. I already said I am not trying to chase Dettmers away. I don't have that power, believe me. Michael was threatened by Bill Murrray and still came back. He wrote EV and he came back again to post the EV response and his email back to them. I've posted that I think he has courage. He's answered questions posted to him. Michael's one person. Where are the others? Look at the massive threads about Joan Apter, I don't consider those so inviting, yet we all want to hear from her, don't we? I 'm not sure what you want from me. Look, if I could wave a magic wand and blow M's trip I would. My days of magical thinking are over and I have to face the fact that it's now my job to pick up the pieces of my life and move on. I'm not talking about forgiving M because I haven't and don't know if I will. I've had difficulty in this forum in the past. I want to be able to stick it out here for a very selfish reason; that is to have conversations with folks like you who know what I'm talking about when I write about being an ex-cult member, a former guru worshipper. I don't get much empathy out in the world. I don't know what else to say, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 21:21:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I've got just two words to say to you, Cynthia ... Message:

... keep posting! And thanks for telling it how it is for you. Your post really came through with a lot of clarity and common sense. Two attributes that are worth their weight in gold, IMO. I've done my fair share of raging now and again, and it's always been an eye-opener to have the chance to come back 24 hours later and review things. You ask what I want from you? I didn't know I was asking for anything. I hope that you (and the rest of us) continue to use this site to express ourselves without fear or reticence, but if you should decide to move on ... well, blessings and bon voyage when the time comes. Selfish reasons for posting here, you say? Well, considering the amount of brainwashing we've had into preferring 'selflessness', I'd say that it's a far healthier attitude you've got now. After all, if you can't fulfill your own needs, there's no way you can be in a position to fill other people's. Maybe the Maha should think about that.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 15:02:29 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Agree strongly! No one is about to chase off Message:

the goose that laid the golden egg. You are a minority as well as I in our observations. Gad, it's almost like another semi cult figure has entered stage right. He's so well respected and adored. After all he was Maharaji's 'right hand man.' He also has much more that he isn't telling. Don't forget the 'aggrement.' Michael wouldn't want to jeopardise his livlehood. But at least the heat is off for now. Take care and please take this clicke here with a grain, a very large one at that, of salt. Sisters, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 18:00:45 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My Reaction to Your Responses Message:

Hello, Since this is the third try since 10:30am and losing my posts, I will (big sigh) try again. I think it's my netscape browser, not this software. Thank you all for your support, as well as your vigorous defense of Michael Dettmers. Michael, my anger was misdirected toward you because I AM so angry at M. In addition, I detected a strong undercurrent of that old cult hierarchy by listening to folks here fawn over you because you were a PAM. For my misdirected anger, I do apologize. I have learned to own my feelings and be an adult in examining my own behavior. Of course, I'm jealous that you got a severance package. I lived and worked in a slave labor camp at DECA and I was tossed out early on because I collapsed from exhaustion. That said, I do welcome your posts here and I did say that your revelations are both validating and a relief to me. So I hope everyone can simmer down and accept that each of us has a right to our opinion and feelings--especially on this forum. As far as debating satanic cult abuse. Not going there. It's not something I believe, it's something I witnessed through hearing the stories and watching abreactions of at least 3 survivors of such a cult. As far as the debate over repressed memories, true or no? Won't go there either. There's a huge backlash going on about this issue (which is very hurtful to folks like me) and I'll tell you right now that the head of John Hopkins University Medical School, Dept. of Psychiatry, is on the list consultants of a group called the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. False memory syndrome is not a diagnosis in the DSMR, but my diagnosis is. I worked too hard in my personal healing process to debate whether my memories of sexual abuse are made up. I've never been placed under hypnosis nor has anyone ever suggested to me that I have repressed memories. In fact, after I had my first memories, my own mother validated them and she should know. You can debate the issue, but it's much too close to home for me and I know what I know. Of course I cannot prove anything, why do you think these cults are so successful? Anyway, I hope this one goes through Best to all, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 18:28:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Fawning and satanic abuse Message:

Cynthia, I don't think the fawning criticism is fair. Fact is, Dettmers will indeed have, in some respect, a different motives and concerns posting here than would you or I. For one, he's not posting in order to pierce the veil of Maharaji's mystique. In that regard, he has nothing to learn from us. We're hungry for info, he isn't. Also, rightly or wrongly, he's got a confidentiality agreement to thinhk about. We don't. Put the two togehter and it does seem as if Dettmers does bear some risk in posting here with less to gain, only in one respect, information, than us non-PAMs. Then there is the real problem of the 'Stockholm Syndrome' to overcome. It's true that Dettmers was close enough with Maharaji over long enough time that he really did have some extra residual loyalty issues to deal with. Sure the guy was his cult leader but they talked a lot. Friendship ensued and Dettmers has had to choose to burn that out in order to .... in order to what? To tell the truth, to try to do the 'right thing', to help people, is how I see it. Yes, that engenders gratitude. And then how about this, we all feel pretty safe dissing Maharaji. You use your own name, I've doen so for years. But what sensitive information do we have that Maharaji might worry about? None, really. Your DECA story is atrocious but, fortunately, you're not the only one who can and will tell it. Dettmers is in a different category of altogether. The upshot is that Maharaji or some other current PAMs might really try to intimidate Dettmers or worse. I think that's extremely unlikely but it's still a consideration. Dettemrs deserves some respect for not letting it stand in his way. Finally, there's the fact that Dettmers opened up only after being persuaded to by many of us here. He's responsive in a way that just naturally triggers respect as his responsiveness is itself respectful. Dettmers has shown great respect for the people on ths forum by allowing us to influence him, arguably against his own self-interest. I don't see anyone fawning over Mike. Although I do have this beautiful framed picture of the Hamster I'd like him to have ..... As for satanic abuse, why not agree to just not talk about it here? You want the last word? You got it. (These words aren't substantive and thus don't count). You're a really neat woman, Cynthia. Just thought I'd say that.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 18:46:09 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thank you Jim... Message:

Jim, I do agree that Michael's situation was very different than mine and others. I got triggered. It's over. I want to move on. I do want to hear more from him and hope he realizes that once in a while one of us goes off the deep end. I do know where my anger should be properly placed: goomragi. Thank you for your compliment, btw,::))) Best, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 13:56:56 (GMT) From: chr Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Disagree strongly Message:

Any position of power or authority is obviously open to abuse. My limited experience of those very close to Maharaji was that they were sincere and usually totally exhausted. The only one I knew personally who abused his situation was Jagdeo. Apart from the recent revelations ( which I did not know about at the time) he spent most of his time watching TV and spending ashram and community money. Most, however , were not like this. They often copped the flack from both premies and Maharaji when things didn't go right because M could never admit he could make a mistake and because premies could never admit Maharaji was wrong or could make a mistake. These guys worked in a very thankless situation, many worked their butts off day and night often fulfilling rediculous whims of their master, and putting up with jealousy and resentment from many premies.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 09:34:06 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: A seat at the captain's table. Message:

Hi Cynthia, Your post raises some interesting points. You write about the ‘victims’of the cult, and also about premies who were in some way ‘responsible’for the suffering of these victims. I feel like I’m both these people. My wife and I sold our house and gave all the money to the cult, when we moved into the ashram. Just like most ashram premies, we thought it was for life. Once I’d made the commitment, I gave it my best shot. I’m a good public speaker, and I was often asked to give satsang at public programmes. I used to participate in knowledge courses and put all my energy into S, S and M (if only I’d chosen simple S and M instead). Anyway- I ínspired’people to surrender and devote their lives to the lard. I brought people to knowledge and put lots of energy into working for the cult. So I’m not sure if I’m a victim or a criminal Cynthia. To be honest, I don’t even care. The whole cult is a fucking madhouse- this we can all agree on. The important thing is to get out of it and start thinking straight again. Like Marianne, I applaud your anger- and I sometimes think if I got a little more angry, I’d get rid of my cult trappings faster. But I don’t really think it’s fair to attack Michael and hold him responsible. We were all in the same boat, and once you buy your ticket and get aboard, who’s going to refuse a seat at the captains table? OK, so the boat’s a decaying hulk that’s going nowhere, rusting away in the mud. The captains got a big hat with lots of gold on it, but he’s a deluded nutter who thinks he’s god on earth. But how was I to know? I’d been scrambling my brains on LSD for a couple of years and probably would have worshipped Mickey Mouse if someone had given me a leaflet saying Mickey could reveal the practical experience of God (a big duck in a sailor suit with an infinite beak that contains the universe). Anth the cartoon devotee.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 15:07:05 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: AJW Subject: You fucking wid my head Anth Message:

I’d been scrambling my brains on LSD for a couple of years and probably would have worshipped Mickey Mouse if someone had given me a leaflet saying Mickey could reveal the practical experience of God (a big duck in a sailor suit with an infinite beak that contains the universe). You've jus reminded me of a painting I did of this mad beach surfing cartoon character called the captain, with a huge beak, saying 'don't fuck wid the captain', never could work out what that was about at all, ain't so sure now. It was during my first real burst of independence from not doubting the weasel! Got a couple of names for possible checking out re french rap, whern I find 'em again, and I can't even blame smokin' at the moment! Du you wanna e-mail us your present e-mail. Hope you're having a good 'un

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 15:35:37 (GMT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: ham Subject: Holland and Vinyl Message:

Hi Ham, Hope all is well in Sunny England. I'm working in Holland nowadays- as you may imagine- I get lost on the way home more than when I was in Paris. The food isn't so good here, but there's plenty of other things to compensate. I never gave up looking for some vinyl Rai, but had no joy yet. I know a bloke here who's got a phenomenal albumn collection (30,000 quality albums from the last 40 years). He's decided to flog the lot, so if there's anything really obscure you've been looking for for years, let me know and I'll see if he's got it. Anth of the wooden shoes

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 19:57:26 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: AJW Subject: Only albums Anth? Message:

After 'Space Is The Place' by the Irresistible Force aka Mixmaster Morris from '93, And 'What Have You Done', same year, can't remember the band name, it's a breakbeaty proto-drum & bass track with vocals (female). 30,000, that's outrageous, was he a dj? Thanx for the rai searching, appreciated. Holland huh, nuff said I reckon, you do get about!

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 19:06:49 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: AJW Subject: Holland and Vinyl (ot) Message:

Hey Anth, could you ask this guy if he's got any Third Ear Band albums? Obliged, Chris

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 19:51:12 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: cq Subject: The Third Ear Band!! (ot) Message:

Heard one a couple of years ago and it didn't hold up at all well, but we know your age now almost to the year, & guaranteed you were dropping acid in 1970!, suspect you'd love Nigels collection, loads of Incredible String Band (sorry Nige!)!! Shame about the party, but three responses, well!! you got any decks witrh variable speeds or know anyone?

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 20:04:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: ham Subject: (ot) Acid in '70??? Blimey I would have been only- Message:

- only 16! Nah, me first acid was in Poona, '79. Then Goa, then Kashmir ... But anyway, variable deck did you say? Yup, I got me one of those - but it's as bouncy as rubber, and not up to scratch (literally) for your purposes, ham. Did I ever tell you I was a recording engineer back in the mid -70's? If not, I'm sure you can understand why. (engineer might be coolish, - but in the seventies??? Sheesh.) Oh, and ISB I was never into. Pentangle were OK though. Enough already.

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 00:15:23 (GMT) From: ham Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk To: cq Subject: Now I'm intrigued Message:

If you weren't into the Third Ear Band in 1970, how the fuck did you come across them? You still into engineering? If so if ya fancy e-mailing us.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 08:05:58 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Cynthia Subject: My Response and Reaction Message:

Cynthia, Charlie, jerry, et.al. Although I don’t agree with all of your assessments of me, I am very sensitive to the legitimate concerns you raise and I take them to heart. I have expressed my regret, my shame, and my apologies in various posts for ever having been a part of the cult and for whatever harm my participation may have caused others, and I repeat the same here. I take strong exception, however, to the allegation that I knew Maharaji was a fraud, but nevertheless continued to present him to others as my lord and master worthy of love and devotion. In retrospect, I can see that I was a fool to have been seduced into believing he was what he claimed to be and, because of that belief, spent so many years thinking that I was actually serving humanity by helping Maharaji spread his knowledge to the world. But I am not so foolish to have stayed around, some suggest since 1974, thinking that he was a fraud but nevertheless continuing to serve him for years thereafter. For what? For the privilege of living in the ashram, whatever the comforts? For the privilege of giving up a relationship following his 1976 return to devotion period, or again in 1980 when he made it clear that a relationship, for me at least, was out of the question? Working 18 hour days, month after month, year after year with little on no personal time and without any financial compensation for most of that time. Giving up the possibility of an established career, family, children? Oh yes, I forgot the perks - wearing a nice suit and sitting in the PAM section at programs and, of course, endless darshan? You can’t be serious. However comfortable my current standard of living is, it is nothing compared to what I could have accomplished had I not wasted the most productive years of my life. The reason I stayed is because I believed Maharaji could make a difference in the world and I was very committed to helping him in that endeavor. Sure, I went through periods of doubt and confusion. When he abruptly shifted back to devotion in 1976, I accepted that I must have been confused when I thought that it was possible to experience knowledge without worshiping him, and I made a sincere effort to surrender all over again. Almost ten years later (I realize I was slow to catch on) once again, I questioned the relevance of emphasizing devotion to Maharaji as the key to experiencing knowledge. I believed it was not necessary for him to be the object of devotion in order for him to play an important role in helping people connect with their higher selves. To create a meaningful dialogue with Maharaji about this issue, I engaged the services of Will Schutz to facilitate the now infamous retreat at San Yesidro. I really believed that it was possible for Maharaji to let go of the trappings and concepts about his role as perfect master, come down off the throne and connect with people at a human level. To me this was absolutely essential if he and his message were going to resonate with the concerns and aspirations of larger numbers of people. Unfortunately, Maharaji found the process very confronting and he retreated even further into his self-absorbed isolation. He did not bolt from the retreat, but he definitely felt that he was being challenged in much the same way as he was challenged when Bob gave him an ultimatum to vacate his Malibu residence. I am now convinced that Maharaji will never, of his own accord, budge from his belief that he is the perfect master, the living lord in the flesh, worthy of love and devotion, and the key to salvation for those who are willing to surrender their lives to him. As I have said before, he embodies this belief so thoroughly that it is not really a belief for him but the absolute truth. And he has cultivated defense mechanisms that kick-in and attack whenever it is challenged. So, no matter what he may say now about knowledge, in the end, devotion to him is all that he wants, and is all that he has to offer. But there is a chink in his armor. Fear and arrogance have shaped and warped his character and have destroyed whatever love and innocence I experienced in him when we first met. And that arrogance has created a pall of cynicism that is contagious. Before I finally left, I was filled with it. To me, he had become a greedy, self-absorbed person. His consumption of ever more expensive worldly possessions is an abomination of the love and devotion that made it all possible. I cannot adequately express my disgust with Élan Vital’s assertion that Maharaji “in his private life, as a means of maintaining his independence, has business interests which have been very successful.“ This statement takes cynicism to new heights. He knows damn well that his fortune is based on the love, devotion and sweat of sincere and trusting premies who believed in him. To dismiss that is unconscionable and, I am convinced, will be his undoing. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:43:07 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Reaction Message:

There's a great story at the beginning of 'How to win friends and influence people ' by Dale Carnegie where he spins the story of an infamous crook(multiplie murderer etc) who is cornered and finally shot down by police (circa 1920). As this person is wounded and cowering from flying bullets he writes a note saying (my memory is not great right now)how he only wanted to have a good life and work with others for a better world. Also Carnegie talks of Al Capone who said 'I only wanted to make people happy?' These quotes are very innacurate. His point and one which I agree on. If these out and out crooks can find a way to convince themselves that they have been wrongly done by and misunderstood and that they are really OK people then how much more so you and me or someone like MJ. Our abilities (and specifically MJ's abilities) for self-protective or defensive responses are well honed. unfortunately self-protection and defensiveness tends to create and anti-learning environment and stasis prevails. Cheers Peter ps I think Dale Carnegie's book is the best ever written in the arena of communication, interpersonal relationships etc. It has really stood the test of time.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:18:38 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Personal Thanks, Michael..... Message:

Thanks so much for that post, and especially for filling in the details on San Yesirdo. Thanks so much for setting the record straight on that, I really appreciate it. I also wanted to say, that your delusion about Maharaji was something many of us shared. I also, in my own way, perpetrated the spread of the lies, because I did actually believe them. I even got friends and family members involved, all of whom saw through it a lot sooner than I did, but they, too, have on occasion had some resentment towards me for convincing them to become premies. But we have to all remember how programmed we all were. It really was amazing, and in retrospect, hard to believe. And although you may have ended up in better shape than some of us, I think we all can acknowledge that you also lost a lot as well. I mean you also are worse off for having believed in what Maharaji told us and what he presented himself to be. I think part of what is going on here is that the information you are giving is freeing people to feel things, and that includes anger, which is very healthy, and sometimes it's difficult to know where to direct it. Thanks again.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:41:22 (GMT) From: Bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: My Personal Thanks, Michael..ditto Message:

Cynthia caused you to respond with that post and for that I am grateful. You had of course clearly stated things previously but each time you have covered this issue you bring more to the surface and we all benefit in a number of ways. You could not know the horrific upbringing Cynthia had or the unmentionable disaster brought upon her by a good buddy and tennis partner of Charanand. Combine that with finding and losing your lord, and having your ashram sister friend commit suicide, ect, and you know why we appreciate you taking the time to relate to her concerns in the manner you have, with respect and honesty.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:54:07 (GMT) From: Bill Email: None To: Bill Subject: My Personal Thanks, Michael..ditto Message:

I hope in saying that I didnt convey a wrong notion. I mentioned her past struggles only because they are true and that I am glad to see her treated well. She of course has landed on her feet in spite of so much and her post is sensible and well thought out. She is anyones equal.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 17:44:40 (GMT) From: Gail Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Reaction Message:

Thank you for your honesty.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 13:39:33 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Another good post. Thanks MD hang in there -nt- Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 10:27:30 (GMT) From: DeProGram Anand Ji Email: not given To: everyone Subject: Dettmers Responces and Reactions Message:

I think it's evident that Dettmers is doing his level best to honestly address all our concerns and questions. How about lightening up on him a little.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 16:25:42 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: DeProGram Anand Ji Subject: Dettmers Responces and Reactions Message:

I agree completely.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 09:17:45 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My Response and Reaction Message:

I am now convinced that Maharaji will never, of his own accord, budge from his belief that he is the perfect master, the living lord in the flesh, worthy of love and devotion, and the key to salvation for those who are willing to surrender their lives to him. As I have said before, he embodies this belief so thoroughly that it is not really a belief for him but the absolute truth. And he has cultivated defense mechanisms that kick-in and attack whenever it is challenged. So, no matter what he may say now about knowledge, in the end, devotion to him is all that he wants, and is all that he has to offer. I agree with this assesment. I don't have time to comment further right now. If you come to the UK I would be interested to talk civilly with you over lunch. There are some things I would like to ask you privately. patrick@patrickwilson.com

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:11:02 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Patrick Subject: Your E-mail address. Message:

Patrick, For some reason your e-mail address is not working. Please send me an e-mail at my address posted above. Thanks. Michael

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 09:09:51 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Whoops, there goes another decade Message:

It is unbelievable the amount of time it has taken all of us to deconstruct our head shit around mr control freak, for yourself do you feel this was baggage that you came in with, or were the control mechanisms he used the key? Any follow on thoughts re gm the performer? Especially interested in his state of mind just before he hit the stage, nervousness etc

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:20:16 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: hamzen Subject: good question Hamzen-nt Message:

sfgjsgf

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 00:25:10 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Cynthia Subject: Dettmers Responses and Reactions Message:

Cynthia: I want you to know that I totally sympathize with your fury. I feel much the same as you do. My post about deception at the heart of the cult was meant to convey part of the anger that you feel. I am glad that Michael Dettmers has posted here, because I believe his contributions have educated exes and premies alike. I also believe that those who were at the top of the organization have much to answer for now, and for eternity. I am glad to have Michael confirm what other exes saw and experienced, from having been so close to M himself. This site needed him to confirm much of what we have discussed, and for that, I am grateful. But in the bigger picture of assessing responsbility for lives destroyed, career paths lost, destruction of familial relationships and friendships -- M and those around him still have much to shoulder. I welcome and encourage Michael's contributions, and indeed I embrace him, because disclosing all of this information is the first step towards accepting responsibility for harm done. I do blame those around M -- especially Bill Patterson because he affected my life so much -- but ultimately, I blame M most of all. He is the one who cast the spell on those around him and manipulated them into abusing the rest of us. But if this k is supposed to teach us to be loving and caring people, then those around M should never have been the conduits for abuse either. It was the antithesis of what we were supposed to have learned. Yes, I am still pissed off about a lot of what I experienced. And the effect of my anger should never be underestimated. The work I do representing death sentenced inmates is one way that I rage against the injustice done to me by the cult and others. I respect, support, and share your anger. I know that you have found ways to re-direct it as well. But being totally fucking pissed off about the whole thing is something I understand and applaud. Your pal in SF, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:23:33 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Marianne Subject: marianne Message:

Hi Marianne, I dont know, in the 80's Bill Patterson would talk to me and he was a believer. I dont think he was a deciever, he was programmed to the hilt like the rest of us.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:48:31 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: bill Subject: Well..... Message:

bill: Yes, Bill Patterson was programmed like everyone else, but what truly pisses me off now is that he had to be 'x rated' in order to be around M, so he knew that there were exceptions to M's rules. He could have allowed me to go home to my mom at Christmas, but didn't. The x rated information just added another layer to my being furious with him. Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:05:21 (GMT) From: Bill Email: bburke@rocketmail.com To: Marianne Subject: Well.....OK Message:

That directive in 74 was from the rawat himself. No christmas. How about you and me contacting him? I heard he was in denver and his name is on the phone. email it to me and his address and we can start off by writing.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 01:55:04 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Marianne Subject: fed audit,or class action filed by you in Cal? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 00:40:23 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thanks Marianne, Message:

I appreciate your support. And I don't live in this anger, Michael's posts are valuable, it's just that today, I'm just very angry. This too, shall pass.. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Oct 31, 2000 at 22:34:06 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Dettmers Responses and Reactions Message:

Cynthia, The anger you express is greater than my own. But I have a strong feeling that if I had gone through what you experienced at DECA and later, I would be equally angry. My own experience in the ashram, in the Midwest, was actually quite cozy! All our daily needs were met, our travel expenses covered, we had our nightly get-togethers, etc. I did experience a loving and tight-knit community. And generally, even my sleep requirements were undisturbed. Even my interest in interacting with children was fulfilled by becoming close to some premie children from the time they were born. Ironically, I did lose some close friends when they were priviledged enough to get transfered down to Miami to work on the wonderful project of DECA. We all thought that they were the lucky ones! So, although I can understand your anger toward Michael Dettmers, I don't really share it. I think you probably could do a better job of seeing things from his perspective if you just imagined for awhile what it must have been like to enjoy such a priviledge spot in that little pond of Guru Maharaj Ji's World. It's just human nature to go with whatever good fortune befalls you. One of my best friends is currently a PAM who I can only imagine is quite afraid of giving up his status or even thinking critically about the whole situation and the part he is playing. I'm sure it is very difficult for people close to Rawat. That last sentence brings up one other point you made in your post, about Maharaji's children 'having it all.' I know you were talking just about financial considerations but again, it is hard to imagine what really Rawat's children must be going through, and what they might go through in the future if they ever question their father's 'business.' Having doubts, for them, could be quite confusing and in direct conflict with their natural needs (even now that they are mostly grown). In general, I shudder to think what the psychological consequences might be for children of the 'living Perfect Master.' I guess the gist of what I'm trying to say in this response to your post is that healthy anger should also be tempered with acceptance of people's different situations and perspectives.

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Date: Tues, Oct 31, 2000 at 21:54:00 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Dettmers Responses and Reactions Message:

I feel sympathetic to what both you and Charlie have said, and thanks for speaking out. I don't know that I particularly want to rub Michael's nose in his own 'business', though. I want him to make his own moves, as he is, particularly in the post where he acknowledged 'the sick game' of elitism and said he was ashamed to have been a participant. For Michael, it must be a bit like he's sitting there, he has to accept the doggy doo on the floor, there is no way to make it vanish, no way to really even say sorry. He's not running, give him credit for the courage he displays. IMO, it is in the honest and sincere interchange of what we think now, the people we are now, that we can benefit from understanding our shared past. Um, or something like that!

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 00:32:54 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Dettmers Responses and Reactions Message:

Well, I just spent about 2 hours handing out candy to about 300 lovely, sparkling children. My mood has changed a bit, but please, don't soften the blow of my anger for Dettmers and M. I don't claim to represent the majority here. As forthright as Dettmers has been, and as welcome as his answers to questions have been here, including me, I speak for myself only. That he now steps forward is the least he can do. I know I'm not getting a golden parachute or severance pay, funded by M's followers, that's a ridiculous idea. Yet I have a right to my anger because if you weren't there, slaving for someone who was the 'Lord' you certainly cannot know what it was like. Ask bill. Don't try to protect someone like Dettmers who has full power to speak for himself, please. He came forward and that's great. It's not like he was a teenager when he came to the cult. He was a grown man, and admitted himself he didn't believe M was god, yet continued to perpetuate the myth of the cult and profitted from that. I grew up in a royally fucked up home. That's no excuse for me to continue to BE FUCKED UP. I worked for 10 years to heal myself and now I'm in a spiritual crisis because of M. How do I get compensated for that? At my own expense, both emotionally and financially. No golden parachute at the expense of M's followers. So I'm pissed. As far as M's children go, they've been abused, but you cannot say they haven't been given the royal treatment by a multi-millionaire fake guru who gives them anything they want--it's a lot harder to leave a rich abusive parent than a poor one. The two eldest children are of a majority age and also have a moral obligation to face up to what their father is, how he got to where he is, and I do feel empathy for them. However their lives work out is up to them, I've done my own work, on very little money. Now here comes a big PAM and I just don't like to see the exes fawning over him because he's done what he should have done a long time before he felt threatened by Roger's exposure. I hear what you are saying, just let me be angry today, okay? I certainly don't have the power to chase Dettmers away and I hope he does continue to post here. Just let me have my anger today, and my right to express it. This hurts, it really, really hurts. I'll be back tomorrow. I'm tired and want to be with my hubby. By the way, today, Halloween is a special holiday for Satanic cults. I wish I never heard about them from survivors I have met and come to know. Today is a very sad day for me because many babies and children will be murdered and abused in unimaginable ways. I guess that's why I don't feel so sorry for M's kids. They get the royal treatment, regardless of the messy family they were born into. So any of you who out there who pray, please pray for those children's bodies, minds, and souls. If you don't pray, have a good thought for them. They are the true innocents suffering on this 'holiday.' Thanks for your feedback. I really do appreciate it. I'll feel better tomorrow I'm sure. I spring back pretty quickly. Just let me have my feelings, okay? Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 11:45:56 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Children Message:

Hi again Cynthia, YOu said, 'Today is a very sad day for me because many babies and children will be murdered and abused in unimaginable ways' I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean they will be abused and murdered because it is halloween? Do you have any evidence that this stuff is going on anywhere? Anth

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:15:19 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: AJW Subject: Children Message:

Bad subject to poke around in AJW, go easy in it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:05:03 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: my feelings about Dettmers Message:

re general reactions to Dettmers etc It may be appropriate to hold everyone on the planet accountable for their actions and to judge them accordingly. I do feel that Dettmers 'sins' are to not to be judged without consideration of some mitigating circumstances. I don't think we should underestimate the enormous social pressure that Michael as a privvy PAM would have been under to maintain 'honourable' silence. Within the courts of the powerful, many are convinced that it is best for them and those in power, to be permitted to maintain their secret lives. (for there is a distinction between 'secret' lives and 'private' lives IMHO) I don't agree with this and I see it as becoming an outmoded practice. I consider that people who solicit or rely on trust from others should be more open to inspection from their investors. As one who also lived in the ashram and gave a lot of years, money etc. I share many of your feelings, but I don't find myself quite so resentful to Michael Dettmers for his part in 'serving' Maharaji. This may be partly because I reckon that within the heirarchy of Maharaji and premies, all of us except from M himself were arguably in the same boat. Whether we were priviliged x-raters or in some distant ashram we shared the common position of being at Maharaji's beck and call only. The x-raters in particular would have been most acutely aware of the necessity to maintain a servile disposition. We all then believed we were doing the right thing but we surely all said and did many things which were wrong in hindsight. To blast Dettmers seems rather counter-productive. He may have been used by M for his abilities as an accountant or whatever, but at least he is attempting to address his conscience about those times, however faltering we may judge his attempts. I personally find Michael's testimonies quite acceptible and am much more inclined to be irritated with those who would rather obscure facts and who see no value in telling it how it was or is. Regarding campaigns for truthfulness, I tend to admire the recent South African approach whereby forgiveness was seen as an essential factor in healing the madness of apartheid. So I am loathe to condemn Michael even if he does retain some motives of self-preservation and however scant his explanations be so far. As somebody said below, at the time most of us would no doubt have jumped at the chance to 'serve Maharaji' in such a direct way. Michael seems to have done so to the best of his ability but not without the short-sightedness that we all suffered as to the larger effects of our actions and involvement. I tend to think therefore that it would be somewhat hypocritical for me to accuse Michael of having behaved dishonestly. I cringe now when I recall some of the things I believed and said. I think we agree that as premies who were caught up in solely serving the Master (as was once so vehemently advocated) we were, as a result, distracted from other more 'mundane' concerns such as kindly attending the needs of others, especially since we all believed that Grace would take care of everything anyway. It is easy to see how any premie in Michael's position would have also been generally positive about the sacrifices others were making. The ashrams were surely all Maharaji's idea wern't they? I think that Maharaji justified the whole ashram, surrender thing because he, like his father, considered it to be 'Grace' for a pupil to be totally humbled by the Master. (maybe he also wanted the money etc.) But he thought it was healthy for his pupils to have their egos destroyed. (probably still does) Anyone who reads the endless Indian literature that exists to document the words of previous Masters of Maharaji's line will see this idea borne out again and again. Maharaji was once asked what the Master did to his most beloved devotees and he replied that the Master would take absolutely everything away from these devotees lives so that they would have to depend on him alone. That was a fair approximation of my experience of the ashram. (The story of course tended to suggest that Maharaji would well look after these dependents of his who gave up everything to serve him.) Unfortunately my experiences lead me to conclude that this was not entirely the case. This was the fundamental reason that my trust in Maharaji (as someone who had promised to 'look after me') was diminished. The fact that he admitted that the ashrams were a mistake seemed tantamount to him confessing a degree of untrustworthiness. At the time I was grateful to him for saying that. I remember that it gradualy dawned on me in the ashram that nothing was really going to improve for me unless I started doing things for myself again. Maharaji's 'Grace' was clearly not something to hold out for forever as some seemed to think. In practice the experience that 'surrendering' my life in the ashram actually reaped was one that proved that if there was such a thing as Grace it was not at all as was suggested. I started to trust my better sense that told me that it was ok to use my talents etc. (even if only to do service to M) and was harshly criticised by premies as a result. I was not put off as I thought that they were the ones who were wrong. Why should he or his family have become rich beyond his means on the backs of followers who believed those lies? Because people like Dettmers had no moral backbone I guess none of us at that time had developed very strong moral backbones. It was a confusing time. I hope that I am developing stronger values over time. Patrick Wilson (formerly 'Anon'- I just had my 44th birthday and have resolved to give up smoking and being an anonymous poster. Seems like two positive resolutions for mid-life!)

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Date: Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 04:29:13 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Patrick Subject: my feelings about Dettmers Message:

Patrick: Happy Birthday. Thanks for posting your thoughts without the veil. I had forgotten you were that young. I mere sprig of a lad. Re: I share many of your feelings, but I don't find myself quite so resentful to Michael Dettmers for his part in 'serving' Maharaji. This may be partly because I reckon that within the heirarchy of Maharaji and premies, all of us except from M himself were arguably in the same boat. Whether we were priviliged x-raters or in some distant ashram we shared the common position of being at Maharaji's beck and call only. The x-raters in particular would have been most acutely aware of the necessity to maintain a servile disposition. I don't think I see PAM as epecially privileged, though I would hold a grudge for someone like Ma Anand Shiela from another similar cult. She was a rigid apologist who was every bit as vile as her Guru. Perhaps more so. Strictly speaking, I would rather be conducting library research or crunching out a factor analysis, or discussing the relative merits of the German 'H' crowd of philosophers: Husserl, Heidegger and Habermas, than sipping a pipeload with the living lord. In fact, about the only thing that would be less attractive would be undergoing some difficult-to-pronounce medical procedure involving sharp objects and blood loss, without anesthetic. Well, maybe watching an episode of 'Charlie's Angels.' --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:12:46 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Hello ANON!! Message:

How about that and Happy Birthday:) You know, Michael does make a quiet reference to wife and children. That could be a very sore point with him and certainly is no small issue for those of us who were pounded with the anti family diatribes from our lord during the usual child bearing years. Clearly he lets us know he has been cruelly wasted. I doubt any premie was guilty of much but were innocence abused.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 15:18:10 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Happy Birthday, Patrick! (ot) Message:

And happy coming-out day. It feels weird to type Patrick after typing Anon for so long - I'm sure I will still refer to you as Anon at times :). I turned 44 in May and have yet to quit smoking - have made MY resolution (and Brian's) for the end of the year. We literally live in a smoke-filled room so it might be kind of tough (please, no one come visit us during that time!). Thanks for the inspiration - and I highly recommend the nicotine patch if you can get it in the UK. Oh yeah - another great post - as usual... Take care, Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 22:02:03 (GMT) From: Djuro Email: None To: Katie Subject: Happy Birthday, Patrick! (ot) Message:

Happy today?

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 15:34:13 (GMT) From: Jennifer Email: None To: Katie Subject: Happy coming out, Patrick-(ot) Message:

Patrick, Thanks for taking the time to write that great post. I have enjoyed many of your posts as 'Anon' and I'm glad you have 'come out' and stopped smoking. Way to go! Jennifer

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 12:50:36 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Happy Birthday Message:

Hi Patrick Happy Birthday. I think I remember you from the Palace of Peace days. Did you have black curly hair? I enjoyed your post by the way. Hope you have a good night out (or in or whatever) Anth of the disappearing grey hair.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 13:42:36 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: AJW Subject: Happy Birthday Message:

Hi Patrick Happy Birthday. I think I remember you from the Palace of Peace days. Did you have black curly hair? I enjoyed your post by the way. Hope you have a good night out (or in or whatever) Anth of the disappearing grey hair. HiAnth, I did probably have black curly hair but it is highly unlikely that you would remember me from those days since I was certainly an insignificant nobody and never even gave satsang there as I recall. (I was very shy then anyway). I knew and was fond of your cousin Des who I lived with on and off in Brighton. I believe he is now an actor in California. I saw you around (you were a relatively high profile character) I don't think we really met. We should do some day though. Patrick-the-also-disappearing-but-still-fairly-black-curly haired one.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 15:39:38 (GMT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Patrick Subject: Happy Birthday Message:

Ha- I do remember you Patrick. My cousin Des'an actor in California!!!! I can't believe it. Does he have an email address? Email me with it if he does. I lost touch with him a few years ago- but occasionaly hear of him through other bits of the Irish family. Take care and have a good night, Anth the lost cousin

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 19:19:34 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: AJW Subject: Cousin Des Message:

Would that be Desie Light? Who was married to Rachel Light, who later married Ron Clearfield, and ended up with the amazing name Rachel Clearfield-Light. Is he an actor now?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:03:45 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Cousin Des Message:

Hi Disculta, No it's a different Des. I remember Des Light from London. My cousin has the same surname as me. Anth Ginn

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 09:29:49 (GMT) From: Dave Punshon Email: DRPunshon@aol.com To: Patrick Subject: Happy Birthday Patrick !!! (nt) Message:

and congrats on 'coming out' with your real name lots a love Dave

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:54:38 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Patrick Subject: Happy Birthday, Patrick. Nice post. -nt- Message:

-nt-

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:52:57 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Patrick Subject: my feelings about Dettmers Message:

Hi Patrick. It's a pleasure to meet you. I like your website and admire your considerable accomplishments. I visited it several months ago and hope you post the URL here. I do think you have somewhat 'minimized' dettmers' position as 'accountant;' he was much more than that. I agree with your 'mitigating circumstances' argument but only to a point. Dettmers has stated unequivacally that he knew rawat was 'merely human' as early as 1974. I can't quite get over this rather large (for me anyway) stumbling block. I guess I don't share peoples' personal sense of guilt and feelings of hypocrisy for 'condemning' him. I'm pretty sure I couldn't have lived with myself knowing my whole life was based on a lie. And I don't believe I would have taken hush money to keep quiet when things fell apart and I don't thing you would have either. I am well aware of your CV, and have been for some time, and I see nothing there that smacks of the revisionism and outright bullshit of dettmers' Swiss Foundation or Kennedy-Western 'educational credentials.' No, you two are a different breed of cat completely. I wouldn't even mention your names together in the same post, except I just did !!! Anyway, happy birthday and congratulations on quitting smoking.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 13:33:31 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: gerry Subject: my feelings about Dettmers Message:

I 'm back from taking kids to school now. Thanks for your comments. I feel a lot better for not smoking already! I was never a really heavy smoker but got into it at boarding school to relieve the boredom. I stopped smoking for protracted periods, on and off for years, so this is not the first attempt. The nicotine gum helps. A problem I had recently was that working with musicians and having lots of premie friends as I do (!!) there was a problem with constant dope smoking. I'm being honest here - people recently kept giving me the stuff and I found that it was getting to be too much of a habit when working. I also feel I owe it to my kids to be as healthy as poss. My post ashram achievements may seem quite a lot perhaps compared with some others, but I am acutely aware of how my potential was compromised by spending those years as I did. I am certainly not alone in this feeling. Michael D has just expressed this and I know Dave Punshon (another ex-ashram premie musician who has now made good through his talents and considerable efforts) thinks this too. I suspect that quite a few premies out there harbour some repressed seeds of resentment in this area. As premie musicians I know that we always hoped that we would be 'used' in Maharaji's work, in this rather more pleasurable field of activity. I did do quite a lot of music for Elan Vital (post ashram) and to their credit they once paid me for a soundtrack to a video (can't remember which one). Maharaji apparently liked my kind of 'up' feeling music. Thanks only to my father's will and a considerable bank loan I had acquired a bunch of expensive synthesizers and sequencers that gave my music a feel of the moment (1980's) which enhanced his productions (arguably) and also resulted in my getting some work in the advertising field. I have worked extremely hard and constantly for the last 20 years but am still struggling to earn a living and pay the bills. I can report quite honestly that nowadays you need a head start at an early age to really have a successful career. Music particularly is a young persons game nowadays. I know a lot of musicians that have a hard time earning a living. The ashram experiment was most unfortunate in that it mainly took young people out of the loop of society when they really needed to be using their youthful energies to get going in a practical sense. I think the folly of this will become apparent as time goes by and premies get older and wiser. I think that most will agree that the way society works (and has done for thousands of years) is that you work while you are young and relax (or renounce the world if that's your thing) if possible in later life. Not an option if you spent your productive youthful years living out of the loop. I gather that even in India there is a custom for people to abandon the world only after they have finished their duties as parents, householders or whatever. I guess I maybe would feel differently today had the outcome of my sacrifices been more in my favour. My gripe is that although Maharaji started off with an apparently altruistic attitude, he seems to have not fed back enough of the profits of his organisation to practically help those who served him at a grass roots level. Money given to Maharaji does not accrue interest or give you a lump some when you turn 50. It certainly went to buying Maharaji new cars and a variety of relatively frivoulous and expensive items. Ferrari's etc. His family certainly enjoyed the money in what some would judge gross materialistic ways whilst were denied such indulgences altogether. I remember that Raja Ji etc. shared his very expensive tastes (especially in cars) as did the other members of his family, and I am sure that they grew more and more to expect considerable creature comforts and luxuries. It is easy to see how the desire to maintain such a lifestyle could increasingly infringe and corrupt one's possible earlier and more altruistic motives. There is a suggestion that M became addicted to wealth which hardly reflects well on his trustworthiness as a Master. Maharaji still has garages full of expensive collectable cars. Will any of the profits of these investments ease his poorer devotees creature comforts in later life?? I mentioned some of my misgivings and former frustrations to Glen the other day (he lives nearby) and he said it was a shame that I had not 'hung in there' as Maharaji would no doubt be using me now and there were loads of opportunities for service as a musician. (Hmm. I see a lot of premie musicians still 'hanging in there' but still not exactly earning a healthy wage from their involvement. Let's be real about this. Service is not supposed to be a paid job and never will be.) I think maybe he misunderstood me since I have actually had plenty of opportunities to serve as a musician and it was generally only rewarding in the short-term premie enjoyment sense. Really I found it impractical even just in terms of time and money to continue being an involved premie all the time. It just would have meant being poor and not getting an interesting career off the ground. Meditation takes hours, service a lot of time etc. I guess in reality it is a trade off with the standard of living you aspire to as to how much of your time you spend doing knowledge. I did not want to end up like some of my premie friends - poor and preaching Maharaji and Knowledge whilst secretly scraping a living from drug dealing or some other desperate means. I think a lot of premies of 40 plus, now with their own families and kids, must be a little confused to reconcile their continued struggles to support their families and the fact that Maharaji's family are enjoying the fruits of their labours instead, apparently living a very rare and priviledged lifestyle! Of course premies are convinced that Maharaji is doing a great job, and that his gift of knowledge and happiness to people on a spiritual level alone, more than justifies his lifestyle and position. Premies consider that those who post here are just a minority of moaners whose complaints are of relatively little import. My observation is that premies largely choose (whether through fear or devotion I don't know) to shift the blame for any problems along the way onto anyone other than Maharaji (who is considered virtually beyond reproach.) even if that means taking the blame themselves. Also they are incapable of considering the obvious possibility that knowledge could be attainable through any other means than via Maharaji. Put simply this is unproven since it has not been tried. Certainly Maharaji is at pains to discourage anyone from trying to teach this meditation. I am still attracted to the idea of devotion although I suspect that this predisposition has made me vulnerable to abuse in the past. Maybe it is this deep desire that people have to be 'parented' by a higher power that opens the way for ordinary men to play that role. Something in me tells me to be very carefull. Dettmers says that Maharaji is fully committed to his belief in himself as the Perfect Master. I am interested and worried as to how far M would go in exersizing this power and if, and to what extent, would his behaviour be tempered by morals, kindness and any more obvious virtues. Maharaji is hailed as virtuous by many. Would he stoop to buying people's silence or other more sinister means of suppression to keep his private life secret? If not then why am I hearing of cover-ups and people being sworn to secrecy? I have rather hoped that I might be able to talk with current premies about some of the difficulties I have had reconciling my trust in Maharaji and my experience of knowledge with hearing about dodgy goings on. What I have noticed is that there is a real reluctance to engage in any way with people who are critical or who appear to threaten Maharaji's 'image' through drawing attention to things that they would rather forget. They are so preoccupied with maintaining their own much needed trust in Maharaji for themselves that they literally cannot afford to spend a moment helping wounded comrades whose trust has been eroded for very good reason. Rather give them the famous 'two pushes more' so they don't pull you into the mire as well. This suggests a paucity of real love and truth rather than strength or confidence based on truth doesn't it? I find it objectionable and morally suspect that neither Maharaji or premies can find it in their hearts (that are so supposedly full of love) to put some of their energies which are so preoccupied with attracting newcomers towards knowledge, into healing some of the confusion that has happened to people along the way. Minority or not. Premies just say, meditate, practice and your doubts will go away! Yes, but no amount of meditation will alter the fact that my 17 year old girlfriend's (then a new-premie) trust in knowledge was throttled at birth by her learning (from her involvement in service) that some PAMS were into some truly unspeakably dodgy deals to raise money! No satisfactory explanation for her from anyone- cerainly I was stumped for words! Is that the way of the Lord? Make it as confusing as possible for people to get Knowledge...Survival of the dumbest? The premie attitude seems to be that it is only a few people who are unhappy with the outcome of their involvement and that they are entitled to leave and do as they wish. There is no feeling that these people are owed any explanation whatsoever that I can detect. To me that is not right. My real concern is not primarily to defame Maharaji (although that may now be high on the agenda for many) but simply to achieve real reconciliation and understanding about a period of my life that was both rewarding and yet confusing. It is a justifiable and strong personal need. Oh and Gerry and anyone who's interested my url is www.patrickwilson.com

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 17:24:02 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Almost great post, Patrick (formerly d/b/a 'Anon') Message:

Sorry, I've gotten attached to that name, Anon. And happy birthday, by the way. I forgot to mention that last night. I'm not sure about still having an appetite for devotion that you hint at. Mind you, I have the privilege of bowing (ever so slightly) when I enter or leave a courtroom, not to mention the opportunity to call people sitting high above me Lord or Lady. (However, that practice is just now grinding to a halt. The Supreme Court of Canada said they're done with it. It's all Judge, Justice and His or Her Honour now). But devotion? I don't know. I kind of identify that with some sort of sickly sweet death wish. What you are so, so right about, and what really deserves further discussion, is the fact that many of us, premies or exes, find ourselves scrambling to earn a living or establish ourselves in a career at least a decade late. Lucky for me, I'm so youthful looking and immature. Seriously, people often think I'm a lot younger than I am. They presume that based on my perceived placement on some sort of generalized careeer curve. I generally don't lie but, yes, there are times I don't correct false impressions. (Guess that makes me a 'con' -- ha ha ha!) So what's the answer? Nothing. We got fucked. Keep working and look for as many silver linings as you can.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:18:11 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Jim Subject: Almost great post, Patrick (formerly d/b/a 'Anon') Message:

We all come to the table with a rare and binding committment to fight against fraudulent practices. That can be useful in our work.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 14:09:09 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Patrick Subject: ex smoker 5 weeks now Message:

I quit smoking [tobacco] somewhere around five weeks ago. I'd been smoking 7 months at the time, after a three-year quit (which I really thought would be the last quit). I told my niece, over the summer, that I'd try to quit before Christmas when I'd visit them again. She is only eight. So I was under the gun to make good on that. An opportunity came in September, and I didn't think another was coming before Christmas, so I went for it. Succeeded, too. :) I can't have the first one. I've tried. :)

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:31:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Well said, Patrick (formerly d/b/a 'Anon') (nt) Message:

dddddddd

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 02:57:14 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Cynthia Subject: Dettmers Responses and Reactions Message:

Cynthia: Please send me your email address. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 00:46:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: What????????????? Message:

By the way, today, Halloween is a special holiday for Satanic cults. I wish I never heard about them from survivors I have met and come to know. Today is a very sad day for me because many babies and children will be murdered and abused in unimaginable ways. I suppose you have some proof of this? I'm not taking issue with the rest of your post, Cynthia. But this comment here sounds like the classic urban legend so popular with the 'recovered memory' crowd. Do you buy everything these guys 'recover'?

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 01:07:12 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: What????????????? Message:

Didn't you ever read Michelle Remembers? That will open your eyes. Plus it takes place in Victoria. You could even vet the people who worked on this case.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 01:31:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Here, read this. Just another cover-up? Message:

THE DEBUNKING OF A MYTH Why the original 'ritual abuse' victim may have suffered only from her childhood fantasies by Denna Allen & Janet Midwinter Victoria, British Columbia The Mail on Sunday London, England September 30, 1990 Page 41 Michelle Pazder is a plump, middle-aged woman with one daughter. She has an ordinary nine-to-five job working as a receptionist in her husband's surgery in the Canadian provincial town of Victoria, British Columbia. Yet, incredible as it seems, Michelle Pazder is a key figure in the current Satanic abuse controversy to whom the extraordinary happenings in England can be directly linked. Thirteen years ago she lay on a psychiatrist's couch and poured out tales of such unimaginable horror that the Vatican launched an investigation and Hollywood offered her a film contract. Michelle described how, as a five-year-old, she had been offered to Satan. From deep inside her mind came memories long buried: How she had witnessed debauchery, murder and the sacrifice of babies, the mutilation of snakes and kittens. How she was made to drink blood at the altar of Satan. Her torment was to last nearly two years. And she named the person guilty of giving her to the Devil her own mother. The psychiatrist who recorded all this in many months of therapeutic sessions was Dr Lawrence Pazder. Both were married to other people. He is now her husband. The Pazders' book, _Michelle Remembers_, was an immediate international best-seller. But, more importantly, many child care experts believe it was the 'seed work' which began the current wave of hysteria about Satanists. Robert Hicks of the U.S. Justice Department said: 'Before _Michelle Remembers_ there were no Satanic prosecutions involving children. Now the myth is everywhere.' The book was pounced upon by fundamentalist Christian groups, interest spread like wildfire across the States, and the crusade crossed last year to England. An important conference at Reading University, attended by social workers from all over the country, heard 'experts' describing Michelle's experiences. It was Dr. Pazder who coined the phrase 'ritual abuse', which has been used by the Rochdale Social Services Department to justify their drastic action in taking 16 children into care. But did Michelle, now aged 40, tell the truth? Did these things actually physically happen to her? Is _Michelle Remembers_, published in this country by Michael Joseph and now being treated with such respect by a powerful child welfare lobby, fact - or fiction? For the past two weeks _Mail on Sunday_ reporters have been investigating. Dr. Pazder, who has since been consulted in more than 1,000 'ritual abuse' cases, was reluctant to speak to us at length. He would not allow us access to Michelle, his wife and star witness. He said: 'For Michelle to go on talking about these things is too painful. She is totally free of Satan today. She is a wonderful person, full of freedom and love.' But every other witness we have interviewed described these happenings as 'the hysterical ravings of an uncontrolled imagination'. Some, including a Roman Catholic bishop, give Michelle the benefit of the doubt; that she did genuinely *believe* these things happened to her. But they are firmly convinced that, in real life, they did not and have to be explained as the workings of her subconscious. In the book Michelle says she was introduced to the Satanic ring by her mother in the basement of her home in 1955. She was just five. Dr. Pazder conceals the family's true identity and home address. But we discovered she was the daughter of Jack and Virginia Proby, who lived with Michelle's two sisters at 2078 Newton Street, Victoria a white-painted house, set among neat hedges and suburban lawns. The first witness is Michelle's father, Jack Proby. Mr Proby, now 74, admits he was not the perfect father, and it was a difficult marriage. But he is outraged at what Michelle and her psychiatrist have done to the memory of his wife, who died in 1963. 'It was the worst pack of lies a little girl could ever make up. The book took me four months to read, and I cried all the time. I kept saying to myself: 'Dear God, how could anyone do this to their dead mother?' '*There never was a woman on this earth who worked harder for her daughters. There was no hanky panky or devil-worshipping.* 'I asked my lawyer if I could sue them. He said I would win, but it would cost me $5,000. So instead I took out a Notice of Intent against their publisher, which meant if they ever went beyond a literary contract I would sue. That meant they couldn't get their movie deal.' Mr. Proby itemized, as examples, three specific points where he says Michelle lied: Book: Michelle said she had no religious upbringing. Father: 'She went to church every Sunday with her mother and sisters. The three of them were confirmed together.' Book: Michelle said she was twice poisoned during Satanic rites. Father: 'She was treated for poisoning, but it had nothing to do with devil-worship. Once she drank turps and paint mixture while I was cleaning my brushes. Another time she ate shoe polish.' Book: Michelle describes a horrible car accident which was re-lived by the devil-worshippers in which Satan himself appears. Father: 'What I do recall was us once coming across a fatal crash in our car. We saw two cars smashed together, and a woman lying in the road bleeding to death. Her intestines were hanging out, and it was a horrible sight. Michelle started to scream, and we could not stop her for ages.' Mr. Proby's testimony is backed by several independent witnesses. Dr. Andrew Gillespie, who was the family doctor, said: 'I believe it was something she pictured in a lot of conversations with Dr. Pazder and an over-active imagination. 'I remember her mother as a kindly woman. She died of cancer when Michelle was 14. There were several poisoning episodes in which the children got into mischief, but they were not serious.' A neighbor, Alice Okerstrom, agrees. 'I dismissed the book as crazy. The mother was a nice, gracious lady. A little girl could not have been tortured without someone hearing.' Diana Lockyer, whose husband was head of the cancer unit at the local hospital, was a close friend of the Probys. She too was 'outraged' at t he book. Her daughter Gillian was Michelle's best friend. Gillian said: 'Virginia was like a second mother to me. I certainly never had a bad feeling about her.' The next important witness is Michelle's first husband, Doug Smith,a chartered surveyor. Although he would not speak to us directly, a close friend said he was extremely bitter. Not once during their marriage or the birth of their daughter did Michelle ever mention her experience, which included such hideous psychological torture as being imprisoned in a cage with live snakes and being forced to eat a soup of worms. Michelle went to Dr. Pazder for therapy sessions and eventually left her husband. Dr Pazder was also married, with four children. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police says there has never been one prosecution in Victoria for Satanic practices. And a Canadian author who is an expert on the occult, Jean Kozocari, said: 'There was never any Satanism in Victoria in the 1950s. The most interesting group there were wife swappers.' Finally the conclusions of the Roman Catholic Church: When the book first appeared, Bishop Remi de Roo spent many hours interviewing Michelle and listening to tapes of her therapeutic sessions. He then arranged for her to fly to the Vatican to meet Cardinal Sergio Pignedoli, then head of the Secretariat for Non-Christians. When the book was published in 1977, the Bishop wrote in a preface: 'I do not question that for Michelle the experience was real. In time we will know how much of it can be validated. It will require prolonged and careful study. In such mysterious matters hasty conclusions could prove unwise.' In the meantime 'ritual abuse' become a buzz-phrase among social workers, who believe that Michelle and her doctor bravely lifted the lid on practices which had going on for years without outsiders realizing it. So what does the Roman Catholic Church now believe? Bishop de Roo's office told us: 'He wans to distance himself from these people. More than ten years ago he asked the couple to provide him with details, but they never supplied all the information he required.' Dr. Pazder himself admits he is working in areas that are difficult to define. 'It's an area where if you jump in too quickly, you get hysteria. People start seeing Satanists around every corner.' He says _Michelle Remembers_ gave victims a voice to be heard and not be labelled crazy. We then asked Dr Pazder: 'Does it matter if it was true, or is the fact that Michelle believed it happened to her the most important yhing?' He replied: 'Yes, that's right. It is a real experience. If you talk to Michelle today, she will say, 'That what I remember.' We still leave the question open. For her it was very real. Every case I hear I have skepticism. You have to complete a long course of therapy before you can come to conclusions. We are all eager to prove or disprove what happened, but in the end it doesn't matter.' One wonders what the parents of Rochdale would have to say about that!

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 02:14:10 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here, read this. Just another cover-up? Message:

So what is her motives?

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 02:13:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jeez, what am I, your straight man? Message:

Sometimes I feel like it. Yes, I remember (Gerry Remembers) reading that same article or something similiar. There was an interesting case right here in Thurston County in the late eighties involving a deputy sheriff, Paul Ingram. Perhaps you are familiar with the case or the book Remembering Satan ? Same deal, but the guy's still in prison. He actually admitted guilt even though he didn't remember doing anything of the sort. He said, if his daughters said these things about him they must be true, even if he didn't recall them. The whole family was involved in some kooky church. The prosecuting attornies work him over REAL good. A shame and a tragedy for everyone.

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Date: Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 02:35:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: You mean I'm YOUR straight man, don't you? Message:

Sounds like you were just kidding again. Sorry I didn't get it. But I don't think Cynthia's kidding. Do you? Naw, don't worry. Just kidding.

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