My responses to la-ex
How could we, and especially the PAMS
(who saw so much contradictory and hypocritical behavior)
not see through so much of this sooner?

Best of the Forum Index

Michael Dettmers -:- My responses to la-ex -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)

__ Curious George -:- Monica Lewis theory or fact? -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:26:11 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- interesting as usual, and a few more questions -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:05:40 (GMT)

__ __ Blue Max -:- interesting as usual, and a few more questions -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 14:15:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- very true -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:31:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Blue Max -:- very true -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:35:58 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- Monica Lewis, April Gillam, bimbo eruptions? nt -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 04:19:28 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Jonestown Remembered and Ultimate Responsibility -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:51:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- A question -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:50:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:38:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:50:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Better be safe than sorry -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:12:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thanks for the answer. -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:56:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Hear , Hear nt -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:51:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ sam -:- thank you, thank you , Marianne. ( NT) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:50:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- another great post Marianne (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:27:19 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- Question. -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:54:22 (GMT)

__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Answer -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:48:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bazza -:- Just an aside -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:14:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Just an aside -:- Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:17:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Thanks for the reply, You're a champion..nt -:- Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:57:03 (GMT)

__ __ Buzz -:- Question. -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:54:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Answer -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:58:54 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Question. -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:28:04 (GMT)

__ Rick -:- My responses to la-ex -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT)

__ Tim G -:- My responses to la-ex -:- Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:09:03 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Questions to Michael -:- Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:24:20 (GMT)

Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 21:51:42 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Everyone
Subject: My responses to la-ex
Message:

La-ex:

Here are my answers to the questions in your post of November 12, 2000.

1. What do you think kept so many of us involved in such a devoted manner for so long? How could we, and especially the PAMS (who saw so much contradictory and hypocritical behavior) not see through so much of this sooner?

I believe that each person has to answer this question for him or herself. Speaking for myself, I already answered this question when I said that my position was a 24/7 occupation. I regularly put in 18-hour days and, even when I wasn’t working, I was always “on call.” After being in this situation for years on end, my body and mind coupled to the environment. I simply didn’t have or take the time to reflect on what I was doing with my life in a general sense because I was so preoccupied with getting through the next tour, or completing the next project, or handling this or that problem. It was an all-consuming job that left little or no time for myself.

2. Wasn't there talk about maharaji's drunkenness and drug use, especially since it seemed so out of control, amongst people around him? Were there discussions amongst good friends about the hypocrisy of all this? And what to do about it? Didn't people feel guilty about going out into communities and talking it up for maharaji when they knew that in his real life he was so screwed up?

There was very little trust and openness among the premies around Maharaji. I suspect that very few considered themselves as good friends. Most were scared of losing their positions as there were literally dozens of premies waiting in the wings to replace them, and Maharaji never failed to remind people around him of that fact. Consequently, an atmosphere of fear and competition prevented people from really speaking what they thought or felt with each other in case their moment of indiscretion might get reported to Maharaji, costing them their positions.

My position was somewhat different than most of the premies around Maharaji. When Maharaji drank, he often offered me a drink as well. He also offered me cigarettes. Before I met Maharaji, I never smoked cigarettes. Within a year of being around him, I became addicted to cigarettes. In time, I began asking myself why was I smoking. Shortly thereafter I quit. I don’t think Maharaji liked that very much because he continued to offer me cigarettes which I politely declined. He had tried a couple of times to quit without success and I think my refusal to join him made him uncomfortable.

At parties and special events, Maharaji provided drinks, champagne, wine, cigarettes and dope for all of the x-rated staff. In this way, he co-opted those closest to him into a conspiracy of silence because we all got to participate, some more than others, in his secret.

3. Were you the only one to confront maharaji about his behavior? Did his wife confront him? Did he get counseling, or would he even listen to a therapist or counselor? What do you think is the main reason for his drinking problem?

I believe I am the only person who confronted him about his drinking. Marolyn was certainly in a position to do so, but she found it easier to join him in his drinking than to take issue with it. While I was around, he never got counseling about his drinking. You can re-read my posts about the San Yisidro conference to get an idea about his reactions to a form of counseling even though that conference was not organized to address his drinking problem.

In my post to Peter Howie yesterday I said that, in my opinion, his excessive drinking and profligate spending were desperate attempts to fill a void that, according to his own teachings, only knowledge can satisfy. In saying this, I am not advocating anything positive about knowledge. I am simply pointing out that Maharaji's himself behaved in a way that strongly suggests that he did not to believe nor practice what he preached.

4. When you said earlier that maharaji didn't seem to care about his work or his own life, what behaviors of his caused you to think this way? Did you ever have an in depth talk about this with him, as someone who cared about him?

Maharaji’s excessive drinking and his profligate spending as well as his abusive behavior especially when he was drunk led me to the conclusion that he did not care about his life or his work. When I confronted Maharaji about his drinking, I did so out of love and concern for him.

5. When you said that 'night after night' at the residence maharaji would be getting stoned with the premies, and that you have seen him 'countless' times inebriated at different places...Was this over a short period of time, like 6 months-one year, where he may have been in turmoil over a specific situation in his life, and then gave it up? Or was this behavior that has gone on continuously for years and years?

The behavior continued for years. It was not a periodic event.

6. Are there other former PAMS that you know that would shed more light on this situation? Would you contact them? I'm not recommending or requesting that you name them, or that they identify themselves on the forum, but I do feel that the more we know, the better off we are...

There are definitely many PAMS who could shed further light on this situation. I have spoken with some of them but, for the moment at least, they are unwilling to come forward.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 00:26:11 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Monica Lewis theory or fact?
Message:

Dear Michael,

Did you know anything about Monika Lewis? Was she/Is she his mistress? Did she go on tour with him sometimes as previously mentioned by another ex? Are there any other women that were/are sexualy abused by M through his abuse of power?

Enquiring minds like mine want to know! I deserve to know after devoting myself to this creep for 30 years.

Thanks Michael,

Regards,

Curious George

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:05:40 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: interesting as usual, and a few more questions
Message:

like Rick, I thought the Guru trying to get you to smoke again was the most interesting thing.

One thing I really enjoy about your posts is the opportunity they give one to see Rawat 'behind the curtain'. There are a lot of things I have always been curious about you have answered. If you and I were say, discussing this over dinner, I would have a lot more questions, here are a few, not in order of importance:

Is your sense that Marolyn ever doubts the devotional trip? What is your view of her? What on earth do his kids think about all of it? I suppose they were still kids when you left though.

Could you sort of describe a typical day for the guru when you were around? We all know he has a very jet set ( jet included ) lifestyle. What are some of the details of the way he lives and is waited on ( or was in your day ).

When Rawat interacts with non premies who also have a lot of money, do you think he is threatened by people who have more than he does? Do you think he has any sense of shame about the way he has come to be so wealthy? I get this sense he judges a person's value by how much they have. I have this sense that he is threatened by people with more money and more education than he has. Any truth in this?

Did you observe any use of drugs besides marijuana and alchohol?

Do you think Raja Ji believes in the scam or is it the 'family business'?

Did Rawat ever use his postion as Lord of the Universe to obtain sexual favors as is rumoured?

How do you think Rawat views the rights of other people and what is the worth of other people? Any difference in how he treats premies and non premies? I was interested in the threats to replace the PAMs with all the premies waiting in the wings to replace them. Bizarre, and so true, we were all waiting to replace them. Anything else like that, that sort of thing, like the wanting you to smoke and those threats, things that really flush out his character.

Thanks Michael!


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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 14:15:36 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: interesting as usual, and a few more questions
Message:

Susan,

Very thoughtful questions. I, like many others look forward to Michael's response. A look behind the scenes is therapeutic to say the least.

One thing though..

Not all of us were waiting to 'take their place'. Some saw through the inner circle, high school clique, Communist politburo, bastion mentality. We took the method, paid VERY close attention to what was being said, did the internal work and benefited as advertized.

One voice was heard...but still we pray for closure.

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:31:38 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Blue Max
Subject: very true
Message:

You are right, I knew a lot of people who did not aspire to be PAMs the way I did. I stand corrected and I admire that you were not playing the game back then.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 23:35:58 (GMT)
From: Blue Max
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: very true
Message:

Susan,

It was painful to go against the prevailing winds at that time,
being rather young like most of us were.

I was a natural rebel in college and when I detected the politburo high school model, I railed against it anywhere I encountered it.

Coupled with some very intense LSD sessions using the Tibetan Book of the Dead as a reference, I barreled into Knowledge and focused on the process and results.

What Maharaji did or does makes no difference to me. He was, and remains, a signpost with his own dragons and skeletons to answer
for. His biggest mistake in my opinion was in setting up the ashrams the way he did. Most folks were not ready for what was required, being westerners in nature and temperment. He should have done it JUST for those who wanted to be initiators. That's an opinion only, open for discussion.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on that subject.

I got my own dragons to deal with...and the weaponry to do it. That I AM grateful for.

Blue Max

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 04:19:28 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Susan +Michael Dettmers
Subject: Monica Lewis, April Gillam, bimbo eruptions? nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:51:38 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Michael
Subject: Jonestown Remembered and Ultimate Responsibility
Message:

Yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the mass suicide in Jonestown, Guyana, as well as the killing of Congressman Leo Ryan, who bravely went to Guyana to investigate charges that Peoples Temple members were being held there against their will. Every year, there is a memorial service in Oakland at the mass grave where most of the Peoples Temple members were buried after their bodies were brought back from Guyana.

Every time I read one of Michael's posts about how Maharaji really behaved, how he really treated those closest to him, and how those with special access to Maharaji behaved, I see the shadows of Peoples Temple. Some of you may get tired of this comparison, but it is very important to grasp the significance of this connection. Peoples Temple represents the absolute worst situation that could occur as a result of unquestioning devotion to a charismatic leader and the ideals s/he promotes. I lived in San Francisco during the time that Peoples Temple was a political force in this city. PT carried out the kinds of political and social activism that many of us had hoped DUO would. PT fed the hungry, gave shelter to the poor and elderly, provided free medical care to those in need, and created a truly multi-cultural church community with a progressive political agenda. By all outward appearances, PT was a progressive, multi-ethnic community which was practicing what it preached.

But in the early '70's, the same kinds of behavior emerged within the hierarchy of PT and those close to Jim Jones as exists around Maharaji, as described by Michael. At this point, Jones was 'Father' to the PT members -- the functional equivalent of the Lord of the Universe. Those close to him knew that he was carrying out fake healings of the sick (in fact, they assisted in the charade); they knew he had sexual relationships with several women who were in high church positions, even though he was married and had 5 children and his wife was a revered figure in the church; they knew he was abusing alcohol and prescription drugs; they knew that he had faked an incident where it appeared he had been shot in the chest only to miraculously recover -- proving his divinity. These people around Jones also competed for their special place in his inner circle, even though what they witnessed showed that Jones's life was completely at odds with what he was preaching to his congregation. In their myopic desire to be close to their perceived God --to be the Archangel Michael -- they lost all perception of what was really happening in their community. They too were worked til exhaustion, too tired to question the wisdom of their position and pursuit. Had the people around Jim Jones paused to consider the dichotomy between Jones' preachings and his behavior, they might have been a small cog that stopped the exodus to Guyana and the loss of so much precious life.

M's behavior is totally at odds with his teachings. Those around him know that, painfully so, it seems. I am absolutely appalled that people put up with abusive behavior by a confused alcoholic in the seeming pursuit of perfection. It ain't perfection. IT IS ABUSE. You do not need or deserve it, and anyone who suggests otherwise is horribly misguided. Those close to M who have left the fold and who know this information have a responsibility to come forward and give this information to us. Don't misunderstand me -- I am not making a demand upon anyone. I make this request in the hopes that some of the other PAMS with whom Michael is in touch might come forward, because I believe their posts may truly help change the course of otherwise lost lives. Your contributions could help heal some of the damage that has been done by M.

This would be a truly selfless act. Please share your experiences with us. You too will be liberated in the end, I am certain.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 16:50:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: A question
Message:

Dear Marianne,
Can you identify a turning point, in relation to the PT, where Jim Jones 'lost it'? Jim Jones seems to have facilitated alot of good works and it appears that for a time he was sincere. Not to say that there wasn't something 'off' about him from the start. I don't know whether there was or wasn't. I wonder if there was an identifying event or factor that pushed Jones over the edge. A point at which Jones transformed from Reverand to delusional maniac. I would speculate it was not the murder of the senator and his investigative party because there had already been talk of suicide in Guyana. From what I know, once Jonestown was established his church had already gone too far and Jones had at that time crossed the line.
I do wonder if M lost his love for toys, life and control to what level he would sink to. Do you see the same potential within M to enact something similar? Just curious.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:38:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members
Message:

Tonette: Great question. Such a great question that I am going to start a thread and talk about this connection. Jones really started to go downhill because of the activities and publicity generated by ex-PT members about how he was really behaving.

Take some antacids down there in Malibu!

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:50:28 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jones lost it bec. of Ex-PT members
Message:

Omigod, Marianne! (And I agree, great question by Tonette). Let's just hope that Maharaji feels he had a lot to lose by 'losing it' - aaagh!

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:12:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Better be safe than sorry
Message:

Hope you have insurance Katie.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:56:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks for the answer.
Message:

I hope you do start a thread along this topic. You're a wonderful writer. I do worry though that the tread has the potential to become downright paranoid. Oh well if it does.
Your answer surprised me. I had no idea. Thanks again-Tonette

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 21:51:49 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hear , Hear nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:50:54 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Marianne
Subject: thank you, thank you , Marianne. ( NT)
Message:

and thanks again u wonderful thing

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:27:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: another great post Marianne (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:54:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Question.
Message:

Michael,

Thank you for being an inspiration. You probably noticed the effect of what you are saying on some of the premies. You wrote,


Maharaji’s excessive drinking and his profligate spending as well as his abusive behavior especially when he was drunk led me to the conclusion that he did not care about his life or his work

Commenting on what you say I want to focus in particular on

he did not care about his life or his work

I find this hard to digest and confusing. If a person is an alcoholic and does not care about his work and his life, would not you say that it would show on his person in one way or another? Things like having a half shaven beard, not caring about his appearance or letting his business run down. (I am sure you understand what I am getting at).

OK, I haven’t been close to the fellow, so I don’t know anything about his day to day activity. From what I’ve seen of him, he never conveyed that image. He always looked like he knew what he wanted and where he was going.

How can such a person persist in doing what he did for so long without getting bored or fed up? What is driving him to continue?

I understand that one of the prerequisites to doing a job or working for one’s self is to enjoy it first. If what you saying are true, then what is the answer?

Can greed explain it?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 02:48:49 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Salam
Subject: Answer
Message:

Salam,

First, let me emphasize that what I said is simply my opinion but here is what I base it on. I have been around many CEO’s of major corporations as well as smaller entrepreneurial ventures. These are people who are passionate about what they do and they put their heart and souls into it. They are constantly traveling, attending meetings, addressing shareholders, dealing with employee and organizational issues all to further their missions. Just take the recent (although still undecided) US Presidential election as a case in point. Serious politicking for the presidency began with the primaries in February culminating with each party nominating its candidate at their conventions in July and August. Then followed exhausting campaigns that had the candidates addressing crowds and town meetings at the rate of 5 or 6 per day, 7 days a week, right up until election day. Why did they do it? They did it because they are serious in their quest to become president and, under our current system, that is what it takes.

Now, I am willing to bet that most premies would say that Maharaji’s mission is far more important to the world than the missions of business people and politicians. Yet, when I compare the work ethic of these people to the Maharaji I served, it is impossible to conclude that he cared about his work. In the end, I concluded that he was just plain lazy. I experienced the same frustration that Bob Mishler faced over this issue. I kept wondering when he was going to roll up his sleeves and get serious about his work. When was he going to get down off the throne and start connecting and relating with the rest of the human race he delusionally thought he was here to save? When was he going to engage with people in real dialogue instead of pontificating from on high? Believe me, I was ready to do my part.

Instead, I spent a good deal of my time organizing the financing and acquisition of his ever growing collection of watches, his fleet of expensive automobiles, his palatial residences, and his helicopter and planes. After a while, I concluded that there was a strong correlation between his failing mission and the fact that he was slightly inebriated, if not out-and-out drunk, five out of seven days of every week for years on end. To me this was the behavior of a man who did not care about his work. Given the exalted status in which he held himself and his obvious inability to live up to that status, I concluded that he did not care about his life. When the dissonance became too great, he numbed the pain with booze and the acquisition of more toys. Is this behavior greed or an addiction or both? I don’t know or care. What ever it is, it is inexcusable in one who claims to offer the key to happiness, and anybody who supports it is a fool. I should know, I was a fool for much too long.

Michael

PS: Susan, Curious George and Cynthia I will address your questions sometime this week.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:14:06 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Just an aside
Message:

Michael

Forgive me if I jump in here a second I just wanted to catch your eye and say how much I appreciate your posting here. If you read my initial post above under name of 'a wavering premie' and the letter I emailed to maharaji, you'll see that you were instrumental in giving me the strength to make that leap.

So please keep it up, your efforts are definitly not in vain.

sincerely

Barry Shaw
ps what do you think are chances he'll reply?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:17:24 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Bazza
Subject: Just an aside
Message:

Barry,

Congratulations on your decision. You have absolutely nothing to fear and I am very gratified that I was able to play a part in helping you come to it.

I think the chances of getting a reply to your e-mail from Maharaji are zero. He cannot respond to anyone who sincerely questions him. For him, that would be like opening Pandora's box and he knows it. His non-response is not a dignified silence, however. It is the fear that his whole charade would unravel.

All the best,

Michael

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:57:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks for the reply, You're a champion..nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:54:16 (GMT)
From: Buzz
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Question.
Message:

How can such a person persist in doing what he did for so long without getting bored or fed up? What is driving him to continue?

Good point Salam.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:58:54 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Buzz
Subject: Answer
Message:

Greed.

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 03:28:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Question.
Message:

Hi Salam -
I am sure Michael will have more to say about this, but it's been my impression that Maharaji feels that he HAS to do this because he is fufilling his duty to his father. And if he doesn't really want to do it, then even the money would not be enough to satisfy him - thus the drinking and requests for even MORE money, etc.

Of course, I'm sure by now he has realized he couldn't make near as much money doing anything else. But I still think the excessive responsibility that was laid on him when he was a child is a big factor.

Take care -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My responses to la-ex
Message:

Thanks for the further information, Michael. The repeated offerings of cigarettes from maharaji is particularly weird.

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Date: Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 22:09:03 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: My responses to la-ex
Message:

Hi Michael thanx for your openness,I think this info is so important even if it were to free only one person. That the man clearly doesn't follow his own prescription is surely a clinching argument especially after the thousands of hours of harangue about the beauty and efficacy of his 'product' ,which by the way is no more his than anyone else's

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Date: Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 16:24:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Questions to Michael
Message:

Hello Michael and everyone,

Marianne, thanks for your post above.

Michael, in your post you mentioned speaking with other X-rated PAMs and their unwillingness to come forward.

Do you know:

1) If they have read the Ex-Premie site? If so, what do they think?

2) Did they give you specific reasons for their unwillingness to speak out about their encounters with Maharaji;

3) Do they understand the impact on so many exes, not just here, but everywhere, that their stories would have; and

4) Why are they afraid, (if they are afraid)?

Thanks again, glad you got off of the smokes--I started smoking after I left the cult!!

Best
Cynthia

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