Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 02:14:15 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers Message:

Joe, When I became Maharaji’s personal business manager, he made it clear to me from the very beginning that I was to act at all times with utmost discretion, to maintain a very low profile, and to conduct his business affairs on a “need to know basis” only. If Marolyn was to be included in certain discussions, he would let me know, and he would define the boundaries of those discussions. Consequently, I was somewhat of an enigma, even around his residence. I did not engage in very many conversations with Marolyn and I had little contact with his children. I focused on my responsibilities and I kept my nose out of Maharaji's family matters. I say this so that you may understand why I am not the best person to answer some of the questions you have posed. I also agree with those who expressed the view that Marolyn and her children do not warrant the same kind of scrutiny as does Maharaji and I will bear that in mind as I respond to some but not all of your questions. 1. Did Maharaji ever consider divorcing Marolyn or she him? I do not know if Marolyn ever broached the subject of divorce with Maharaji but I do know that Maharaji would never consider divorcing Marolyn because he was obsessed with the Eastern concern for “saving face.” When Maharaji got married he did so without his mother’s consent even though he was still a minor. In fact, she did not even know of the marriage until after it took place. It was anathema to her that any of her sons marry outside of the Hindu tradition. To his mother, marrying a Westerner was tantamount to sacrilege. Thus, Maharaji’s marriage to Marolyn was the decisive act that forced the split up of the so called “holy family” and cleared the way for Maharaji to take full control of his mission, and that was the main reason he got married. He did not get married to obtain US citizenship. He would have gotten that without marrying Marolyn because he already had US permanent residence status and was eligible for citizenship in 1979. His marriage to Marolyn simply accelerated the process by a couple of years. I’m sure that Maharaji was in love with Marolyn but that, in itself, was not necessarily a compelling reason to get married, especially as he was only 16 years old at the time. Before they were married, they carried on a secret love affair. I discovered this when Maharaji and his mother were touring in Canada in 1974. I had been instructed to use the ashrams for their accommodation because that is what his mother wanted. Upon arriving at the Toronto ashram, however, Maharaji asked me if I could arrange for him and his mother to stay at a hotel. Within an hour, they were comfortably ensconced in the Presidential suite of Toronto’s newest hotel. His mother was pissed, but he was delighted. He further requested that I make similar arrangements in the other cities. It was during that tour that I became x-rated so that I could also make arrangements for Marolyn who was secretly following the tour. Several years later, when Raja Ji and his wife Claudia were contemplating a divorce, Maharaji did everything he could to prevent it from taking place, including the threat of financial ruin for Claudia and her children. Maharaji did not really care about the pain or difficulties that Raja Ji and Claudia were experiencing, or even about the potential adverse consequences of a divorce on their two children. Maharaji only cared about saving face. He did not want to give his mother and all of the Indian premies who had left him when the family split up to say “I told you so.” It would be worse, as far as Maharaji was concerned, if he and Marolyn got a divorce. That is why I say that Maharaji would never contemplate divorcing Marolyn, at least while his mother was alive, which she was when I was still involved. 2. When Maharaji began having you and later others arrange for him to have sexual liaisons with premie women, where did they go? Are you aware of any premie women turning Maharaji down when he propositioned them? During the time I handled such matters, Maharaji’s liaisons were conducted in hotels while he was on tour. In my limited involvement, no one turned him down, just like no premie declined to be x-rated when I presented the possibility. I don’t know any of the details of his relationship with Monica including whether or not he has set her up in a home or apartment. 3. When Maharaji suggested to you that he wanted to have sex with women not his wife, you said you thought it might be a good idea (as long as it wasn't with premies) because it might help Maharaji get in touch with his humanity. I think I can actually kind of understand what you mean by that, but can you explain further? By 1985, I once again reverted to a belief that I had previously come to in 1976, namely that Maharaji would be more successful at spreading knowledge if he attempted to relate to others in a more natural and human manner. I was convinced that the perfect master – devotee paradigm was a huge barrier for most people to overcome in order to receive knowledge. I wanted him to get down off the throne and engage in authentic dialogue with people. I realized that he was indoctrinated at a very early age to embody the Perfect Master role as the truth, but I, nevertheless, hoped against hope that he would open up and re-assess his life. I based my hope on my observation that he was in obvious pain, what with his marriage difficulties, his alcoholism, not to mention his failing mission. In felt the time was right for Maharaji to make the shift. The conference at San Yisidro was part of my effort to bring it about. When Maharaji told me that he wanted to experience other women, I thought it might be another opportunity to help him connect with his own humanity. In the end, as must be obvious to everyone, none of my efforts worked. He’s still playing the same sick game. He thinks he’s the lord and believes the whole world should humbly surrender and kiss his ass. Some premies agree as evidenced by his recent program in India. I heard from one of the attendees that he gave darshan to all of the Western premies who came early to do service. How does that jibe with your FAQ’s Élan Vital? 4. I assume Maharaji's affairs became common knowledge among the residence staff and probably the PAM community. Is that true? When I was around Maharaji, his affairs were not common knowledge, even among the residence staff. 5. You said that Maharaji made it clear that it was not okay for Marolyn to have affairs outside the marriage, but it was okay for him to do so. How did he talk about that? He didn’t really talk about it. He simply assumed it on the basis that he’s the master and everyone is supposed to do as he says, not as he does. Any rational person, however, would see his behavior for what it is – hypocritical. 6. Did Maharaji ever tell his off-color jokes in front of his kids, or in front of large groups of people? I don’t know about telling off-color jokes in front of the kids. I remember an instructor conference in Texas in 1986 when he had a joke contest where participants got up on the stage and were judged on who told the best off-color joke. 7. Also, it appears that Maharaji's stage persona was very different from the way he was other times. Did Maharaji ever talk about the difference? Like did he think that he was at certain times the Perfect Master, and certain times Prem Pal Singh Rawat? No. Michael.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:17:50 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers Message:

This line of discussion is ludicrous. To think that because Maharaji is the “perfect master” means he must conform to certain morals accepted by the religious center shows how little understanding you have about human nature and the perfect master. You will recall in stories of other masters how they went through personal ups and downs and where similarly judged for it. Jesus when he spent time in the desert supposedly went through a period of grave self-doubt. Was he stressed out? You bet he was! He contemplated jumping off a cliff for crying out loud. He was judged for hanging with prostitutes. When he was on the cross he cried out to this God he was supposed to be the son of, asking why he had deserted him. God knows what the man was really like to his x-rated followers. Everything Jesus did made the religious center mentality’s head spin…so they killed him, as is typical of stupid humans when someone doesn’t conform to their myopic set of values. And of course, one of his infamous closest followers bears a striking resemblance to you Michael. Have you ever been out for lunch with co-workers and really wanted to have a glass of wine but didn’t because no one else did? Why is that? It is because you don’t want to be judged. And if you were the first to order and ordered a glass of wine and then nobody did, you might wonder if the others think, “maybe this guy has a drinking problem”. Or if you’re at someone’s house and they pass you a joint and you decline, don’t they wonder the same thing? “Is he judging me for smoking pot?” What did you want from your perfect master? A tea-toteling prude who would judge his followers for having the guts to try things outside of the religious center. If Maharaji had been such a pious soul, as you criticize him today for not being, how would you have felt when doing the things you did when you were young, or even today for that matter? You would have felt judged by him that’s how. You would have felt guilty every time you strayed from the pious path. But instead he didn’t judge you. He allowed you to be yourself. He showed you that none of that stuff mattered. And I can’t count how many times Maharaji made everything right again in my life by simply saying, “leave it all behind for a moment and just listen to satsang”. I for one have strayed from the ten commandments too many times to count. And I don’t take kindly to pompous know-it-alls passing judgment on me. Many of my most profound lessons in life have been a result of taking steps beyond the walls of “I shouldn’t”. To confine Maharaji to the limits of experience within those walls is equally pompous. I hope you all judge yourself just as harshly as you do him.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:38:32 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Turner Subject: Big investment made in Mr rawat eh ? Message:

Hi Turner, A lot of your life , your precious time has gone into this nollij and master trip. I spent decades in there too. You are making a valiant attempt to shore up your defences and deny the obvious. This man is an out and out fraud. He's no more or less than anyone else. He's richer than most of us but not in spirit as he once claimed. Nollij works though and that must mean that he's a true master? Not so! Not one iota! Meditation techniques the same or similar to Maha's are effective for many people regardless of which creed they follow. I follow no creed but if I sit quietly - th a sound and feeling is there for me. I can sit down and start my meditation with an affirmation such as ' Maharaji you are a fat greasy fraud and I fucking despise you. You are so sickening I hope You have to face real shit in your life.....' and guess what ? The stillness and peace and the same stuff is still there. In fact my experience is that when I do sit quietly now that it's so much better without my connection to Rawat. There is a lot of investment of time which is difficult to let go of but I assure you that it's absolutely fine to discard that fake. Life goes on and gets better and more interesting. less restriction, more freedom, more realness ,etc... You'll find it a great relief when you finally let go , which you will one day , even if it's at the point of death and you cry out to him for help and comfort and realise that he ain't there, that it's just you with yourself and fatso doesn't even know you , couldnt give a fuck and conned you for most of your life. Hope you get out of the cult soon though because it gets tougher the longer you leave it. Hal

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:10:59 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Turner Subject: I know people will think your post was from me.... Message:

But it isn't, although you do have a style a lot like mine. Your post was very synchronized with Maharaji's divine plan. Just the other day, when I was reading that Maharaji was fucking his devotees, I was thinking about how we are in no position to judge. How can we? We are pond scum and pond scum is the lowest of the low, unable to pass judgment on anyone, let alone the living Perfect Master. I'm sure that if Maharaji wasn't taking drugs, getting drunk, and taking sexual advantage of his devotees, he wouldn't be relatable to the vast majority of people in this confused world, and then they wouldn't be able to be open to that love, that truth, that peace and that experience, which is his gift. I know that when I was looking for a master, the first thing I looked for was someone who was having sex with his female devotees, and who also drank a lot, and took a lot of drugs. Ostentatious wealth and conspicuous consumption, including owning multi-million-dollar yachts, were attributes that were high on my list, too. I'm sure that's true of most other people, too, and that's why so many people have chosen Maharaji as their master. As the Elan Vital FAQs say, he is an enigma, but the number of people he has 'touched' (in many different ways, both inside and out) is remarkable. Yes, Maharaji is just like Jesus in so many ways, except he has more money. I'm sure Jesus was having sex with everyone in sight, too, since he had prostitutes for friends. I bet all Maharaji's friends are prostitutes too, at least in spirit. I'm also sure Buddha had a mistress and smoked pot, too. How would he have gotten a gut like that, if he hadn't toked a few and then ate bags of M&Ms? We just have to get rid of our concepts about what a Perfect Master is supposed to be like. Everything Maharaji does is just for us to blow our concepts so we can be more open to him and his love. If you have concepts about him, like that he isn't supposed to be a rich, adulterous alcoholic, how can you be open to that experience? Please, Turner, submit your post to the 'wit and wisdom' section of the Enjoyinglife website. I'm sure every premie will immediately relate to what you are saying.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:25:55 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Turner Subject: He'd look cute on a cross... Message:

...on the trinket stall. 50 dollars for the silver pendant. Can you imagine, Turner? Loincloth and crown of thorns skilfully engraved. What planet do you come from? This line of discussion is ludicrous. To think that because Maharaji is the “perfect master” means he must conform to certain morals accepted by the religious center shows how little understanding you have about human nature and the perfect master. Who are the 'religous center', Turner? I'm an unrepentant atheist and I can see your Master is a vain, narcissistic twat with no morals whatsoever. Why can't you see that? It's so obvious. You will recall in stories of other masters how they went through personal ups and downs and where similarly judged for it. Jesus when he spent time in the desert supposedly went through a period of grave self-doubt. Was he stressed out? You bet he was! He contemplated jumping off a cliff for crying out loud. He was judged for hanging with prostitutes. When he was on the cross he cried out to this God he was supposed to be the son of, asking why he had deserted him. God knows what the man was really like to his x-rated followers. Everything Jesus did made the religious center mentality’s head spin…so they killed him, as is typical of stupid humans when someone doesn’t conform to their myopic set of values. And of course, one of his infamous closest followers bears a striking resemblance to you Michael. Michael Dettmers as Judas?!!! You get funnier by the minute, Turner. Who the fuck are you? Are you an official EV spokesman/woman? God, you sound REALLY desperate, today. Have you ever been out for lunch with co-workers and really wanted to have a glass of wine but didn’t because no one else did? Why is that? It is because you don’t want to be judged. And if you were the first to order and ordered a glass of wine and then nobody did, you might wonder if the others think, “maybe this guy has a drinking problem”. Or if you’re at someone’s house and they pass you a joint and you decline, don’t they wonder the same thing? “Is he judging me for smoking pot?” Your social inhibitions are your own problem, Turner - and it sounds like you have a few. But deciding whether or not to partake of a spliff is not the same thing as calling yourself 'the highest incarnation of God' then getting devotees to procure women for your personal amusement and pleasure. I assume you never got the invite. What did you want from your perfect master? A tea-toteling prude who would judge his followers for having the guts to try things outside of the religious center. If Maharaji had been such a pious soul, as you criticize him today for not being, how would you have felt when doing the things you did when you were young, or even today for that matter? You would have felt judged by him that’s how. You would have felt guilty every time you strayed from the pious path. But instead he didn’t judge you. He allowed you to be yourself. He showed you that none of that stuff mattered. And I can’t count how many times Maharaji made everything right again in my life by simply saying, “leave it all behind for a moment and just listen to satsang”. I for one have strayed from the ten commandments too many times to count. And I don’t take kindly to pompous know-it-alls passing judgment on me. Many of my most profound lessons in life have been a result of taking steps beyond the walls of “I shouldn’t”. To confine Maharaji to the limits of experience within those walls is equally pompous. I hope you all judge yourself just as harshly as you do him. For fuck's sake, Turner, there is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT MASTER - though there are hundreds who want you to believe that there is. Until your unburden yourself from that sick delusion I fear you will still be seeing beauty in the sad form of Prem Rawat until your dying day. Your problem, pal.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 13:25:52 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Turner Subject: All this Perfect Master stuff Message:

...is a complete load of Bollocks Turner. You didn't learn it in school did you? It's like believing in Thor, or Valhalla, or Pixies and Fairies- It has no grounding in reality. It's human mythology. Time to grow up. Happy Christmas Anth who still believes in Santa Claus (It's the physical embodiment of a higher power you see Turner- It's the spirit of 'giving' and we celebrate it in a ritual act. Anybody from any religion can join in. It's an inner experience. You can't really describe it. You have to have it for yourself. I tell you what, fill in this bankers order to help to pay for a new kitchen, and I'll let you have a direct experience of Christmas for yourself.)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 10:49:26 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Turner Subject: the point is, Turner... Message:

that it is not a moral judgment. This evidence against rawat points to a very dissatisfied 'man'. If this knowledge is actually so wonderful why does rawat need to seek satisfaction through drugs and women. He did claim to have realized it, didn't he? Now, of course, you can tell us the master can talk the talk but not walk the walk. But, if the K is so great, why would he want to experience less than the best?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 20:29:04 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: JTF Subject: the point is... Message:

The point is not whether or not Maharaji is satisfied. Neither you, me or Michael Dettmers can comment on another person’s satisfaction. Sure, we can make our interpretations as seen through our own personality hued glasses, but it’s a crap-shoot. The question that I ask is whether I am satisfied. Knowledge has satisfied the deepest longings of me - and many other people - and I can assure you I haven’t been conned in the process. How can I say that? Because Maharaji speaks to the heart, and Knowledge works in such a way that no interpretation is required. You are either fulfilled or not. That’s the bottom line. I could care less what he does with his day to day life. It’s irrelevant…really. Just like I don’t care about what you do. The advantage I apparently have over you is I don’t have a clue what a perfect master should do with his day to day life, and you apparently do. But I do know when my heart is full. Nobody can fool me about that! And that is something I have no way of proving to you, so I won’t even try. Best of the season to you.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:53:08 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Turner Subject: the point is...sadly enough... Message:

that this type of answer is nothing more than Cult 101, Maharaji is Maharaji, etc. All of us hear would have responded that way while we were still trapped. Who is the source of these ideas you expressed, including the famous 'my experience' line. Just recently, rawat was quoted as saying something like, 'let's face it, K works.' Some people are more suggestive than others. rawat's implanted suggestion here is that if it doesn't work, you the practitioner must be deficient. Next time you hear him speak, just listen how he subtly sneaks in that which the group must assume to be true. Watch how he subtly uses head nods to elicit agreement from the audience. Maybe you have a 'real' experience...maybe you have been told you have one. One thing is for sure-people in other cults report very similar experiences as you describe, using much the same words. Doesn't this stir your curiosity to examine these other cults on an objective basis-reading both the pro and con viewpoints?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 22:19:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Turner Subject: lets all be glad Turner's heart is full Message:

because THAT is all that matters. As long as Turner's heart is full he has no right nor any responsibility to deal with why the Jagdeo cover up, what happened with Fakiranand, this poor guy on the bike and the coverup, why does Rawat abuse alchohol, why did he drive drunk with his kids in the car, why does he pretend the seventies did not happen, why he blames those around him for all his mistakes, whether he is in a cult or not. Turner, your heart is full, that is all that matters. If offered the cool aid I guess you would be first in line.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:01:08 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Susan Subject: Turner's the only one glad Turner's heart is full Message:

You are right Susan, I don’t care about all those things. Now, why do you care so much? Who are you to pass such judgment on him? Look, I know your story and I know you’ve been wronged. So does that give you the moral mandate to pass that kind judgment? Have you lead such a pure life that you are a worthy representative of such lofty moral heights? Do you know how barren life is without a full heart? I’ll tell you…it’s not worth getting up for. Do you think the world could use more people with a full heart? The good Maharaji has spread in this world by filling hearts far out weighs representation of the few malcontents who post here. Now I ask you again, why do you care so much? I mean before your knee jerks and you claim to be making the world a safer place, what’s the real reason? As I see it the fuller the hearts of the people on planet earth, the safer place the world will be. That just makes logical sense to me. So? Another thing, comparing Maharaji to Jim Jones is disingenuous and an infantile cheap shot. He doesn’t remotely reflect the character of that kind of sociopath.

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 12:35:46 (GMT) From: janet of vence Email: None To: Turner Subject: full hearts make the world safer??????? Message:

oh yeah--in their hearts,what were those children feeling while jagdeo was Forcing them to rub and fondle his genitals? my experience tells me they felt sick.what were those blonde women's hearts full of when GMJ fucked em and forgot em? my experience tells me they felt anguish, rejection,dirty, used,discarded, raped...oh yeah,real SAFE feelings, there, turner.ya think MJ was feeling a heart overbrimming with fufillment while his palace was engulfed in flames in the Malibu Fires? not to hear him tell it, he wasn't.people whose hearts are brimming with fulfillment ALWAYS become alcoholics, addicted to smoking,drive drunk with their kids in the car down treacherous canyon roads, throw away airplanes with gold toilets that their beloveds spent years making for them, and have their business managers procure young women for them to fuck when they get tired of their wives. and that overbrimming, fulfilled heart, so satisfied and at peace with life, would just naturally kill a bicyclist in his car and then flee in another one. for the same serene reasons he would post rings upon rings of security forces around his every move and place armed guards around his appearances. why, it just follows so clearly.and a heart at such infinite, deep peace and fulfillment, would just have no interest in getting more and more money or rolexes or G5's or cognac or sex partners or gold toilets or maserati's or yachts...no, such a profoundly contented heart would find it only right to abuse and terrorize and frighten everyone closest to it with cutting humiliation, degradation, fear and blame. is'nt that the language of the heart? why, hummingbirds would just float right down to sit on his shoulder and kiss his big soft cheek, wouldnt they? i mean, when you get what you want, why would you give a shit about anybody else? right?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:58:16 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Turner Subject: Define your terms. Message:

Turner, when I was studying theology (Oh my! What a terrible person I must be!) we were told to define our terms in every discussion. So, what do you mean by the term 'a full heart?' The other day a woman asked me to pray for her because 'my heart is so full.' Do you think she meant the same thing as you? Do you think she had your guru's knowlege? Oh, by the way, when Jesus said 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' he was quoting Psalm 22. Do you think he was crying out to God, or do you think he was reciting a Psalm for comfort (a rather standard practice, even then)? How do you define the term 'Perfect Master?' I define it as 'a term used to create a spiritual lineage which does not exist.' I think that the idea that Jesus was a Perfect Master is just a way to give legitimacy to Hindu cults in the West. By legitimacy, I mean that, for Westerners, if Jesus is part of the package, it must be alright!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 23:51:26 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Turner Subject: why do I care so much Message:

I think because I really believed in it all at one time. Also, I am pretty much a bleeding heart type, I care about all sorts of things. You seem to imply that our hearts must be empty because yours is so full. That's just BS. Being out of the cult for years I can tell you there is no monopoly on satisfaction, appreciaition of life and full hearts being in Rawat's realm. Really, all he does is claim credit for the MIRACLE that life is anyway. I in no way think the comparison to Jim Jones is a cheap shot. The similarities are eerie. Jim Jones had his own 'x rating', similar trouble with women, similar paranoia, the cult members justified their actions the same way you justify yours. The difference is the Kool Aid. I hope that it never comes to something so hideous. But the truth is, we both know there are folks who would drink it for their Lord. I have not lead a pure life, and I have made plenty of big mistakes. But I never claimed to be the superior power in person, no one signed their trust fund over to me, no one had sex with me thinking they were boffing God incarnate, no one joined my ashrams, thousands of people have never lined up to kiss my feet. No one has a shrine to me in their home. BS Turner of course a person who is in Rawat's position is open to judgement. He brought it all on himself.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:55:49 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Turner Subject: And the real point being that Maharaji is Jesus? Message:

Whoa! I've made a big mistake here, haven't I? shows how little understanding you have about human nature and the perfect master Go ahead! Don't be bashful. Take it to the streets. Let the world know that the Christ, the Saviour is here. Many are called, but few are choosen and you, Turner, have paid your dues via Direct Debit and you've got a guaranteed seat on the next rocket ship to heaven where you will frolick with your Master, your Lord for eternity and beyond all while being bathed in pure white light brighter than 10,000 suns. Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah! Praise the almighty! And those who judge and misunderstand the Lord, the true Son of God, will be punished. Tey will suffer greatly under the angry wrath of God! All that burning in hell and bad stuff like being born again and again as some low life creature who always has the misfortune of being eaten up on the first foray out of the hole in the ground? Go ahead, Premie-Ji, tell us about your Master, your God. He wants everyone to know before it's too late, before the final judgement, before the end times. Yes,u and the 144,000 others gathered at the Houston Astrodome will be saved and returned to the mothership that is swooping in behind comet Kahoutek (remember K.O. Houston Texas?) Ok, Mr. Turner, I'm going over the top here and things are quite different now. Instead of the entire Holy Family to love and worship we've just got the Holy Brother, Raja Ji - The Word. So, Mr. Turner, I hope that I am not beyond redemption and I hope that you don't give up on me, sir! I need discipline. I need direction.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 21:57:03 (GMT) From: sucha Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Rog,you forgot to bring the hairshirt and whips(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 19:01:45 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: LOL Message:

Turner brings out the best in us. What a twat. Have a good Pagan blow out Roger. Anth in transit

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:52:58 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Turner Subject: Yeah Mike, you drunken, pot smokin' Judas... Message:

It's almost fucking Mithrasmas for chrissake. Will ya lighten up a little? Turner ax's 'who do you want fer perfect master?' Well I woulda sed gina lollabrigida but that would show my age. Hey maybe she's still got some a that ole black magic, eh Turner boy? Btw Turner, ever see jimmy stewart in 'harvey?' You kinda remind me of him. (Elwood P. Dowd that is, not the pookah.)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:33:23 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Turner Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers..Maharaji???.. Message:

Or is it one of your lawyers? You sound quite upset? Still comparing Maharaji to Jesus eh? I thought he just gave you agya not to talk about anything so why you shootin' your big 'ole mouth here at Michael Dettmers. Don't you know anything? Are you Maharaji? No, I don't think Maharaji can write that well, you're a lawyer with Maharaji over your shoulder at the computer. Am I close? Well, then, Fuck Off Maharaji! HA HA GOT YA!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 04:38:06 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks. And one clarification.... Message:

Aside from the information about Maharaji and his personal problems, I find what you are saying very interesting just from a historical perspective. What was really going on? You said the main reason Maharaji got married to Marolyn when he did, at such a young age of 16, was really because it 'cleared the way form him to take full control of the mission.' Are you saying that Maharaji got married to Marolyn because it would force the break with his Mother and hence essentially give him control of the mission, at least in the West? It sounds kind of Machiavellian. Do you think Maharaji was actually that crafty and politically maneuvering at the age of 16? By the way, who made you 'x-rated?'

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:08:02 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: Thanks. And one clarification.... Message:

Joe, Yes to your first question. I won't mention the person's name without their permission. Michael

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:11:52 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Very Interesting and Also. Message:

In retrospect, I could never understand, like you said, WHY, Maharaji felt compelled to get married was he was still basically a kid. It just never made any sense. That's why I thought maybe immigration had something to do with it. But what you are saying is that at age 16, and really 15 I guess when it started, Maharaji was calculated and quite willing to infuriate, and basically dump his Mother, Shri Hans' wife, so he could get his hands on the mission THEN, as opposed to say when he turned 21. Amazing. I guess power was his thing, right? I had always thought of Maharaji as being an egomaniac, but also that he was uneducated, and actually kind of bumbling when it came to strategy, planning etc., and that things were only prevented from falling apart because of people like you whom he had working for him, and, more importantly, because he had no accountability whatsoever to anyone, had thousands of followers who thought he was perfect and incapable of error and hence he couldn't lose his 'customers,' and had essentially a huge reservoir of money from donations, as well as free, slave labor to do whatever he wanted no matter how unrealistic and stupid (the Boeing 707 debacle being one of the most notorious example). It is pretty hard NOT to be successful when you have those things going for you. [Not that Maharaji didn't accomplish that anyway due to his own, destructive, behavior.] Regarding the Initiators. A number of them could be quite cruel to people, sadistic almost, and those of us in the ashrams were sometimes the victims of them. Others were a bit derranged and sometimes said bizarre things, completely off the wall, but because of their positions, they were sometimes given the benefit of the doubt. [I could give you examples.] Was Maharaji aware of this? Did he get any feedback? Another question. I wrote a number of letters to Maharaji around the time I was still living in the ashram, but not long before leaving the cult, around 1982 and 1983, talking about the hell I was in and asking for his help, and I never got a reply, either directly or indirectly. Do you know, did Maharaji ever bother to read any of those letters? Did he have anyone else read them? I know that when I was at IHQ, Sally Reeder had the 'service' of answering Maharaji's mail. But this would have been after that. Regarding Raja Ji and Claudia. You said that when they wanted to get a divorce, Maharaji was upset about it, because of the way it would look in India and to his mother (who, I guess, would have been able to say 'I told you so'). You also said that Maharaji threatened Claudia if she went through with the divorce. How did Maharaji threaten Claudia? Obviously, he wasn't successful because they did get divorced. What actually happened there, and do you know whatever happened to Claudia? Was she cut off financially? What about the kids? [I recall there was Navlata, but I don't recall if there was another one.] I understand from what some people said that Claudia was living in Miami, doing interior design in South Beach, and her name is now Claudia Garcia as she has remarried. I also heard that Claudia commenced a lawsuit against Maharaji. Do you know anything about that? I have also heard that Raja Ji subsequently developed a cocaine habit, and was complaining to people that Maharaji wasn't giving him enough money, seeing as he didn't appear to have any marketable skills himself, although I'm sure there must have been rich premies willing to hire him in some gratuitous position, just to get in favor with the Lord. Do you know anything about that? What was Maharaji's relationship with Raja Ji when you were around? He always seemed like kind of a third wheel with no real function except to 'be' Maharaji's brother.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:20:10 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: To Michael another historical question Message:

Michael, After Maharaji married Marolyn and the split in the holy family took place, I understood that Mata Ji and Bal Bagwahn (sp?) Ji and others, went back to India and essentially conficated DLM there. I recall in 1975, Maharaji went to India with lawyers and tried to get the mission back. I also recall that when Maharaji came back from India, that everyone said what a wonderful tour it was, and that although there had been protests against Maharaji, everything was successful. Sophia Collier says in her book that this was a big lie. That, actually, Maharaji lost the lawsuit (lost Prem Negar and most of DLM in India), and that he was almost run out of the country, and had to hold up in some ratty motel, hiding out, but that Maharaji had directed all the Westerners who were with him on the trip to lie about it when they returned. Do you know what actually happened?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 03:26:30 (GMT) From: Thanks again for your Email: None To: Joe Subject: Honesty:)--nt Message:

srth

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:03:34 (GMT) From: wethead Email: None To: Joe Subject: None of your business Message:

NT

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:09:31 (GMT) From: (Senator) Hillary Clinton Email: None To: wethead Subject: Touched a nerve have they? Message:

Try to remember holy name (technique number three) and say to yourself 100 times: Maharaji might not be a philandering, lustful, deceitful liar; Maharaji might not be a philandering, lustful, deceiftul liar.... You might feel better for awhile. I've tried it will Bill and it does work.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:29:05 (GMT) From: wethead Email: None To: (Senator) Hillary Clinton Subject: Touched a nerve have they? Message:

It's just the hypocrisy of it all. M is what he is. Why drag Marolyn into the mud and slander slander slander. Think of M's kids. Factual posts exposing fraud good for all. This snooping into everyone elses bedroom getting to personal...no tact, I don't know. Maybe I'd crack his head open with a baragon for being such an asshole.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 18:19:18 (GMT) From: GAC Email: None To: wethead Subject: What's the difference between Marolyn and Jagdeo? Message:

I mean pedophiles are pedophiles.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 00:56:23 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: wethead Subject: I agree Message:

Maharaji's fair game for any sort of scandal, if only to show what he's really like so that people don't have any delusions about his own self appointed mastership. However, other people in his vicinity have never claimed to be God or a supreme master and therefore don't warrant the attention.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 15:55:53 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Marilyn Rawat Message:

It is difficult to assess Marilyn. Only she knows what is in her heart and mind. And only people close to her could offer some insight. But from what we do know, the most postive thing that could possibly be said about her is that she is deluded. If we give her every benefit of the doubt that she is being true to her own perception, then we can just criticize her for having a fucked-up perception, which she shares with a lot of cult members. Personally, I cannot believe the best about her. I cannot believe that she doesn't fully realize that her husband is a fraud who is leading people into delusion. She must be a coward and a hypocrite. I don't know how she lives with herself. Perhaps she is so afraid to face the truth that she has gone insane.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:02:06 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Do not agree Message:

Marylon was a goodess, remember? PAMs are the suckers that help him, they all involved.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:28:00 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Salam Subject: She was MOM... Message:

and many of us left our REAL mothers behind because of DAD's directions. THEY DESERVE EVERY LITTLE THEY CAN GET: WHEN ARE THEY RETIRING? ONCE MORE: lard sucks!

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:55:54 (GMT) From: Salam Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au To: SB Subject: Well there you go SB Message:

I am not the only one that is saying that. It is ok to pretend to be civilised and say that we should not blame anyone else except groomji, but the reality of life is different, he gave thounds the rap about how wonderful and great m and k where. She had a truck load of tissue paper waiting for her everywhere she went, and in the end she got demoted. I will forgive her if she comes out and says I am sorry for missleading you, until then she is an instrument of m. and I agree Rawat sucks a lot Salam p.s. have you tried e-maling me lately?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 05:55:26 (GMT) From: Sbe shure it's evidence Email: None To: Salam Subject: I still have those 70's cassettes abot DAD and MOM Message:

It isn't just my memory, or an alucination. Civilized my ass. NOBODY can change the facts. Many times I was criticized here by ex-premies and premies for getting so angry at Lard and his troop soon after exiting the cult, for insulting him so much, for hating him so much. We are not 'suppose' to hate, you know... like I created the capacity I have to hate in me. WHAT ABOUT THAT SOME PEOPLE DO DESERVE THE HATE THEY RECEIVE? :0 Should I be proud to have belonged to the biggest cult ever? Lard in person, WHOW. How in the hell can I forgive him and forget about what he inculcated in my head for 25 years???!!! How can IIIIII do that? Me. I am not saying that everybody should hate him, but that I do because of how he ruined my life. I deserve the best therapy ever and its pay shouldn't have to come from my pocket. The best is yet to come. lol Yes, living well Katie, others, is the best revenge, nevertheless, as Selene said to me, reminded me, people like me who were involved and bought his trip so seriously like some of us did after realizing the scam were left with very few tools to cope with reality. I have no compassion for him; I hope he has a slow painful death, honestly. No joke. He haven't retracted himself. Marolyn? Same kind. I want to hear him letting his devotees go free. I want him to come foward. I want him to take responsability for ALL his words but I get an idea by now that he wont do it. He is a coward and we know it. We are going to have to do it for him. 2001 looks really promising. My agenda is very busy because I have to make a living, family, have some forgotten fun, etc. but this subject more than obsession as it has been called here (acussations?) will become in some point my favorite pastime: I am writting a book. In the right time; when I am ready, of course. I have so, so much stuff to organize that it will take a huge amount of work, but of course,I 'love' him so much that I feel like giving him a hand. Good for those that got out easy, that have the right support to come out whole. I didn't. I left a year a go and some moments that I went through I don't wish it for other, except rauat. Many I know didn't left whole either but pretty wonded. People I love, premies are still suffering because of the limited capacity to reason properly to know what they are doing with their lives. Many have died, I almost did. There is no way that I am taking EVER full responsability. NO WAY!! I was only 18 when all began. No fricking way. I have been insulted and disrespected in this forum simply because I am not like this person (ex)or the other, because I couldn't cope well, or because I don't have some type of degree, i.e. not enough education, that being the cause of my disrespect for rat. Like education and manners could ameliorate what I feel. No way. They think of themselves as smarter? There is not one day that goes by that I don't think about it, and I have no idea if it will ever go away... What some people seem to forget when their mouth gets full criticizing some of us is that each person's circumstance is unique and for all those that want to sell their justification why rauat deserves a brake: Fine. You do it. I don't have to. My personality is such that I need to make something of all this. Is not about revenge. It's about JUSTICE It's about others regaining their freedom, and so much more. An example: My son is totally confused because his father is a premie; is he ever going to be ok? I studied Psychology enough to know, it seems that the years of pain regarding the ass cult are not over for me. I was thrown a ball that I had no intention to play with and is All my fault? Liquid bullshit. You are not a loving person I heard many times here. Elaine, darling. What type of logic people use sometimes is beyond me. Read blind spots. I am a bad, boring, uneducated person. Like I am suppose to give explanations about what is it that I do in my free time. I have many 'parts' and one very important got very, very factup, ok. I'll say it: FUCKED UP You know well that my life is far from boring. It is that particular sting that is there, bothering, occupaying an space that shouldn't. That is my problem with rauat. He had no right to do what he did to my head, soul and body. NONE. That is my motivation. SOMETHING NEEDS TO HAPPEN. Somebody eventually will listen and when one does the rest will follow. Even if it takes another 25 years expossing him, I'll do it. In honor of the ones that died. My mother's pain, my sister and brothers, my son, my lost friends and most of all, for how much more beautiful MY life could have been if I never met him. You whinners, superior beans, LOL, follow the arrow. I wasn't talking to you and beside, this to me is not a club, as many seem to take this forum for. This is our opportunity to say whatever we want to dirty rat. Some are waiting for him to get more powerful lawyers to close this site... Maybe then fighting rat can become more important... Talking is cheap. Unity? What is the meaning of that word? I told you that my e-mail to you bounced, remember? Love, s PS: Selene has my e-mail address.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:40:45 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Sbe shure it's evidence Subject: WOW, what a girl Message:

Man I can feel the heat comming out of my monitor. Take it easy or it is gonna melt. I think you have the right to be angry, and if you hate him that is good. I hate him. I learned it. I do not have to suck up to anyone when I say it. a Lot of people talk about hate as if it is a sin. I do not think so, an emotion is an emotion, does not matter what it is, fi one loves all the time then one is missing something. O like to find somebody saying he does not hate yet. I do not understand why your mail is bouncing, you certain they are not made of rubber. fuck you rawat for spoiling sb day. There. Happy?

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Date: Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 17:10:12 (GMT) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: sb Subject: Powerful post, SB Message:

Very well written and expressed. I wish you would post more. We could all learn a lot from you. (Well, except Elaine. She's brain dead.)

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 05:44:04 (GMT) From: sb Email: None To: gerry Subject: hahahahaha Message:

I stopped promising because I am taking care of personal matters, but I'm still around and it will happen. I hang around this forum because I need it to keep remebering that the voices I hear in my head (not literally, but lard's words still pop up from nowhere sometimes. Twenty five wasted, negative, extra damaging yers. What can I say? I am even remembering how to communicate again... Yeah, the dead is dead. Of course, if they want to they CAN live again, but Elaine, I don't know. I am investigating the TAO latelly. I had to find something because otherwise I was going to began running until I got to Malibu and smack him silly. Read: Too angry. Thanks for the compliment about my writting but first things first. I am healing myself first so my support to this site can be more effective. I know that I have SOMETHING to tell. Love you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:19:42 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Salam Subject: Do not agree Message:

Salam, In Maharaji's world, a person, including Marolyn, is whatever Maharaji declares them to be. And, he was always quick to remind those around him, he could reverse a previous declaration whenever he wanted to. Remember the mahatmas who were subsequently declared 'manmots.' That is why I am so angry about the Jagdeo situation because in Maharaji's sick world he is the only real power who could and should have dealt with the situation. In Marolyn's case, she was Durga Ji and then one day she wasn't. His game - he makes the rules and he changes them whenever he wants. And, of course, he exempts himself from any of the rules he makes for others. After all, using his own self-referencing illogic 'Maharaji is Maharaji.' Michael

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Date: Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 02:43:36 (GMT) From: Owl Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Do not agree/*Qusetion* Message:

My question is what is your take on (M) going through ------> so many names John, Paul, on and on and on ...................... Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ji ......... -> Sat Guru Maharaj Ji -> Guru Maharaj Ji -> Maharaj Ji -> Maharaji -> and so on. O' and then there is his presumptuousness at referencing himself as -> Saint Ji Maharaj, remember that one? So your take on this? ...............? {B.T.W.} Are you, going to let M get away with that death in India, (thing?)?

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:21:23 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: We made him that way Message:

But we can also revoke it. You, I and a lot of people around here decided that he is not to have control over us. Marylon, the PAM and other leaches around him are too afraid to move. It is like being in the same job for thirty years. The last thing you would want to do is give it up and do something new. So as long as those that constitute the inner sanctum blind themselves to what is around them, I will continue to throw rotten eggs and tomatos at them. Why are the sticking with him? you have already shown in previous post that he is incapable to accepting change neither crticisim. He does not want to religate responsibilities to others, but then he cowers and blame everyone else for it. Well if those everyone else had any guts in them then they should break the crystal jar and walk away, Salam

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 13:51:25 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Salam Subject: Well said, Salam! Message:

... although it is true that in the final analysis there is only one Cult leader and everyone else is a victim, I feel that thinking along those lines can go too far. Individuals involved with Rawat also have their responsibilities. After all, some victims are more eager to embrace their role and spread the delusion than others. Some have gained a great deal; have a lot to lose; and will fight vigourously to defend their Lord, and their position within his sad little world. Yes, PAMs are victims. But they are also adults, with adult rights and responsibilities. Among these, I should say, is a responsibility to be honest with themselves and not to harm others. One cannot do that if one is firmly lodged in Rawat's orbit, of course. But we are giving every assistance to people still involved in the cult to get to the truth. It is their responsibility, their call, how to deal with that.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 16:41:46 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Well said, Salam and JohnT! Message:

Hi, This has been an interesting thread. I agree that Marolyn and the PAMs are adults and have (or should have) consciences about their roles in this scam. Yet, they are brainwashed too, or are they? I can't put myself in their place, however, because I've never been that close to m. However, when I was somewhat close to him every day, he frightened me. I wonder if Marolyn is double bound by the brainwashing, plus the obvious: she's got battered woman's syndrome. She's a classic case, but with a huge twist: her husband is the perfect master, lord, whatever, to her, A Cult Leader!!, and he has placed her and the kids in a position of being completely dependent upon him for everything. He's a drunk, apparently a belligerent one, verbally and emotionally abusive, which makes his volitility very frightening. Michael's story about M tirad in the restaurant and driving home drunk because he was jealous of Marolyn's ''supposed'' attention to another man, reminds me of O.J. Simpson, and my own dad. Only Marolyn knows what M has said to her and done to have such ultimate control, I'd bet he's terrified her a lot, and in private, too. Marolyn always seemed to me to be a good mother, and wife, yet I also saw a bit of spitfire in her too. Her gushiness on stage was part of the bit act, but I also saw sincerity and strength in her, too. Now I wonder about her. Do I think she ought to leave him? Not my business, but yes. She doesn't even know, I'd bet, that she has that choice. Sad. Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 19:27:21 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joy52@earthlink.net To: Cynthia Subject: Cynthia, Could You e-mail me? (nt) OT Message:

Hi Cynthia, I was wondering if you could e-mail me privately off-forum, I believe we have a friend in common from Miami, and would be interested in discussing this Battered Woman Syndrome as it relates to Marolyn (and us as being from verbally abusive families) in a more private way. Hope to hear from you! Love, Joy

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 14:18:04 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: JohnT Subject: I don't doubt for a sec. that it is a business Message:

It looks that there are two types of PAMs, your standard run of the mill PAMs, the ones that run around kissing his ass, and the other type that have a financial stake in Rawat. Personally, I do not know who is who in m's world, I have been away for too long. But from reading F5 and the rest of the site, this is the conclusion that I made. The ass kissing PAM are dispensable. The deep pocket ones are his 'mates', they scaratch his back and he scratches theirs'. But as you say an adult is accountable to what he does. There is never too late to come to relize that.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:33:18 (GMT) From: Can you tell the story Email: None To: Joe Subject: of Mira Bai in Miami?-nt Message:

sfgh

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 18:13:24 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Joe Subject: More Questions for Michael Dettmers Message:

Michael-in addition to Joe's questions, I would add a few more... It has been alleged here that a few years ago Monica wanted to blow the whole cover and leave maharaji because she was upset about something (I wonder what?)....supposedly she was talked out of it by some PAMS (I wonder if this coincided with maharaji's 'quitting' about that time-supposedly he 'quit' briefly, because the problems were too big for him, but then 're-hired' himself a few days later) One question I have is - was there ever any 'hush money' or perks given out to the women who might talk? Or other people who knew about scandalous things? Have any of them talked? Do you think any of them would talk now, under anonymous names? Also, Pat Halley has written that fakiranand was instructed by the dlm president to kill him. That would have been mischler. Do you think he would have ordered such a thing? If he did, wouldn't it have only been through direct orders from m? I don't remember Bob as being the irrational type to order such a thing, or having the audacity to do such a thing unless m wanted it to happen. Also, Pat Halley says he was paid about $10,000 for damages. Is that accurate, and how was that handled? How was a possibly damaging court case avoided? I've got a few more, but that's it for now.. La-ex

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 15:10:09 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: la-ex Subject: My response Message:

la-ex: As I said in my post to Joe above, I don't know any of the details about Maharaji's relationship with Monica other than that their relationship is a fact. Most of the stuff to which you refer, if it is true, took place after I left. No hush money was ever paid during my limited involvement, and I have not had any contact with any of the women for well over a decade. I was the National Organizer in Canada during the Pat Halley - Fakiranand episode so I have no idea what conversations took place and with whom. Based on my subsequent close working relationship with Bob Mishler, I do not believe for a moment that he knew of, or had anything to do with, the attack on Mr. Halley. I'm sure, however, that he must have played a role in cleaning up the mess that others(?) created. Michael

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 19:46:50 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Experienced Exs Subject: Questions For Experienced Message:

I'm a newish visitor here and much enjoying it.I left the cult around 1980 so need a bit of clarification. What is a PAM and what does it entail? What does Ex-rated mean? Are we talking about those swarthy Mafia types we would see in the front seats, reputedly worth millions or recently relieved of their millions by You Know Who.Some of them carried handbags for a while too. I can't wait to sit down one rainy night [most nights here in Ireland] and write my 'Journey'. Blessings to all the exs. The cult looks like it has a fatal faultline opening up or is that wishful thinking?

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:24:53 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Read the whole site ......... Message:

......don't be lazy , & fuck the phone bill ; you'll get the idea pretty quick . pax

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