Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:27:31 (GMT) From: suchabandanna Email: None To: Nigel Subject: progressing to 'Hess'? Sieg heil, bolie shri...(nt Message:

Hesse

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 20:44:02 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Some thoughts about what you said, Nigel Message:

Nigel, I have been doing some thinking along the lines of your post for the last few days, and from the feedback so have others who post here. There is definitely something hanging in the air, so to speak. I have spoken to some friends and acquaintances about this whole thing and have gotten some very different reponses. Shock was an obvious response from some people. There were a very few who came back to me with a surprising response. They said in their opinion, a teacher of the esoteric leading to higher consciousness can have all sorts of worldly and screwed up problems, just like everyone else. One teacher was cited whose name I cannot recall. I was told this guy did many drugs, had a drinking problem, was bisexual, had AIDS, but had guided hundreds of thousands of students from around the world to a higher consciousness. Personally, I don't get it. Consciousness to me is about living, not separate from day to day life. To say that someone can be very screwed up and still be focussed on what's important in the universe, this idea seems like a contradiction to me. But I have seen and heard stranger things than that, and so did Shakespeare. I have a hard time buying into that scenario, but something tells me (not fear or anything like that) it's entirely possible in a world that has hurricanes blowing over some of the most beautiful inhabited islands on earth, regularly destroying human life, in a world that is inhabited by the duck-billed platypus and the scorpion, in a world that seems to be up for grabs to the bully with the biggest wallet, the most firepower and the best PR, in a world where everything seems to be upside down. This would fit the Kali-yuga scenario...what it must be like to live in an age of truth, where all is right side up! You said: 'When we hear someone referred to as a ‘Master’, we assume they have mastered something, that they have an expertise to share with lesser practitioners of their respective crafts. As with a master butcher, so with a master musician; as with a schoolmaster, so with a Kung Fu master etc.' I agree. 'And when, by chance, some dewy-eyed friend or stranger tells us in a hushed whisper: Maharaji is a master - The Master – we accept on trust an assumption of spiritual authority because we like what we are hearing and our naïve, uncynical hearts still have trust to invest. And when we learn He is the Living Master for The Age, come to save the planet, instead of counting his Rolls Royces, we count our blessings...' Yes, we did. 'It is interesting to now watch premies wrestling with some uncomfortable facts and weighing new information against their concepts of what a Master might be.' Interesting isn't the word. 'In a thread lower down an anonymous premie suggests that if Prem Rawat is a Perfect Master, then anyone who dares criticise is guilty of megalomania. Presumably because they criticized Jesus too, blah, blah… Absurd, of course, but almost understandable, remembering the scale of my own indoctrination and that of fellow-followers.' The anonymous premie begins his/her suggestion with 'If'. 'If' is the word that the Great Illusionist used on Jesus in the wilderness to introduce his temptations. That anonymous premie should just go on and enjoy their life and not judge anyone else. If that premie has a rock-solid faith, good for them. 'The belief that such thing as a ‘Master’ exists (by means unproven, possessing skills untested) stacks a heap of unearned credit into the account of anybody claiming the title. We give them the benefit of the doubt, just as Cambridge Professors gave Uri Geller the benefit of the doubt when he appeared to bend spoons with his mind. Worse, even when the doubts creep in, we have no yardstick of divinity for reassessing the Master’s worth, so we carry on giving the benefit of the doubt. (I can no more prove Maharaji isn’t the Lord than I can prove the non-existence of unicorns or Santa Claus.)' 'And for those of us brought up with the Beatles, the Mararishi and associated hippie shit, and progressing to Hess, Leary, Yogananda and others on the spiritual smorgasbord, giving benefit of the doubt to self-styled masters becomes pretty-well automatic. If a guy can sit lotus-legged in loincloth for twelve hours at a stretch without twitching a muscle, well who am I to insist his inner self hasn’t passed through the internal gates and merged with the infinite, or that his heart doesn’t dwell in Samadhi?' Or at least his butt's asleep, or one or both of his legs... Seriously, I understand and can relate to what you are saying here. '(Actually, sitting still in a lotus pose is no big deal among the poor in Asian countries, nor is wearing few clothes. I wonder how convinced we’d be by a well-dressed, white-skinned yogi who lay motionless in bed for similarly long time-stretch?)' The family of the well-dressed white skinned yogi would be calling doctors and specialists to come over and do all sorts of tests on him/her. Something must obviously be wrong. 'But Maharaji never even affected these poses of oriental mysticism. His assurances of his special status were sufficient. And from the moment of placing him on that Krishna throne we downgraded our self-worth in inverse proportion.' Maybe that is how you see it now. But when we did that years ago we actually raised ourselves to a level of higher self-worth, either from his really being the Man or from our own Quixotic missionary zeal, which made us all fellow finders of truth. The beauty of the moment was pure, and if we were fooled into it, then that is another moment to deal with. If someone has faith and is fooled, shame on the trickster, not on the believer. But as always, buyer beware. 'Yet it is impossible to prove Maharaji isn’t the Lord, in spite of it all. So let’s, for argument’s sake, assume he is God in human form, and see where it goes. What kind of God are we dealing with?' This is where I was at when I ran across your post. I was thinking of all the things that God 'allows' to happen which contribute to the pain and suffering of men, women and children all over the world. I mean, why make a beautiful string of tropical islands with great beaches and then have sharks and hurricanes come around and kill unsuspecting people? Why make beauty and underline it with danger and death? 'In a recent radio interview Kurt Vonnegut outlined his best advice for would-be novelists, summing up his points in a short-list of essentials. One tip he offered was this: Make bad things happen to your characters. In fact, he insisted, you should make terrible things happen to them, no matter how sweet, charming or lovable you have otherwise portrayed them. Because that is the only way see what they are made of. Simple as that. And he’s right.' 'And as true for God in Human Form as for anyone else… So never mind that God drinks, smokes or takes drugs and shits in a golden pan. Never mind that his addresses are rambling and incoherent – that he can’t even finish a grammatical sentence. These may be off-putting factors for some, or merely foibles and eccentricities (Jesus spent time among thieves and prostitutes, remember). Lifestyle choices don’t necessarily get to the essential character of a man or woman, as evidenced by the number of premies fully aware of the above facts but who are happy to continue as devotees – as I was whilst still practicing back in the eighties. No, let’s take Vonnegut’s advice and look at how our main character deals with the bad stuff so we can really see what he’s made of… Only recently have I learned how Maharaji handles the slings and arrows and have to say that even from this distance I have been almost shocked by what I’ve heard. Four examples will suffice: 1. God’s hand-picked devotee and instructor turns out to be serial child abuser… God removes offender from scene, but continues to employ him. Fails to notify police either in the States or in India, effectively leaving him free to abuse. Fails to contact victims or offer apology or explanation. 2. God’s marriage hits a rough patch… God asks devotee to arrange a series of discreet hotel-room ‘introductions’ with female devotees where he can show them God’s etchings before dumping them. 3. God’s wife appears to be flirting with somebody who isn’t God in a restaurant… God dismisses chauffeur, storms out and drives home drunk, his car weaving all over the road, God’s children in the back. 4. Cyclist pulls out in front of God’s limousine whilst God is driving. Cyclist dies…God switches drivers and flees the scene. Ok, since I can’t prove a negative, let Prem be God in Human Form, if that’s who he says he is - but if that’s God then God is an arsehole. If he came to me in a vision and revealed his powers and divine plan so that I had to believe, I would nonetheless spit in his face.' I would not spit in his face. But I would definitely be having some very strong feelings. Your thesis that Maharaji could still be the Master of Knowledge and the one who's mission it is to mainstream it to humanity ('attention K-Mart shopper's, we have an instructor of Maharaji's on aisle 3 today from 10 am to noon') I also happen to agree with that possibility, despite all the bad news and events in which he is involved. The world is changing. It's going to hell in a handbasket politically, environmentally, spiritually, culturally, and pretty much in all other ways too. At the same time there are forces at work in most of these realms trying desparately to shore up the floodgates. Perhaps the 'Master of the Age' is just as screwed up as so many other people are, and in this 'all bets are off' atmosphere on earth now, most people don't give a shit. In the long run, what will most likely be remembered about Maharaji is his work to spread Knowledge, whatever else happens. When I read about the kings and demigods of antiquity in different cultures, many of them had soap-opera lives, with lovers and jealousies and murderous plots and the whole nine yards. And they also had their duties and missions to perform, which they seemed to also do. How I feel about it? Unnerved and tired right now. Maharaji's actions or lack thereof in the examples you gave above shake my hard fought and won Judeo-Christian value systems of right and wrong, good and bad to the point of feeling like I have to completely let go of either those values or Maharaji to stop the vibrations that are driving cracks into my thinking/feeling components. Talk to ya later. Sandy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 18:16:46 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Why not put some weights on those speculations? Message:

Shp, You're right and, as many, including myself, have oft said, it's entirely possible that Maharaji is indeed a Vonneguttian 'Master' of a Vonneguttian universe. Indeed, why stop there? Perhaps The Sirens of Titan isn't fiction at all and the whole purpose of the world was to allow a stranded inter-galactic messenger send home for parts so he could carry on with his most important mission, to persoanlly deliver the most imporatant message ('hi') to some guys over on the other side of the universe. Possible? Of course. But likely? I think not. Occam's Razor, shp.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:00:13 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper Message:

The simplest path is easy to follow and discern let's say, if you are single and travelling around the world with your backpack and guitar with your favorite weathered black leather and hoofing it alot...very dashing and easy in and out of airports and all the other venues. But if you are travelling with little babies or kids or even with a high maintenence partner, not to mention anyone who wants to come along for the ride, it ain't so simple. Then there is quite alot more baggage and delay. Then you need a goddam hedgeclipper to get through it all, a simple razor won't do. I don't know if I am coming across clear to you, but I understand what I am saying. It's been a long and arduous season. Please let me know if I was clear to you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 03:16:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper Message:

Sorry, shp, you lost me on this one. I'm merely saying that this thing doesn't only look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck. If you listen carefully, it's actually saying 'I'm a duck! I'm a duck!' Okay, my turn -- you follow ME?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:50:09 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Occam's Razor or the hedgeclipper Message:

Jim, I'm bushed, so to speak. Politically, physically and mentally. The conversation took a turn with Occam, I took a hairpin curve with the hedgeclipper and it's gonna snow like hell up here in the NE USA tonight. I lost both of us back there, but somehow it isn't as important as it used to be to cover each and every detail of the discourse. I have tried to sort it out below. See what you make of it. Let's just suffice it to say that you advised me to consider Occam's Razor as a means of weighing the stuff with Maharaji, I added that simplicity becomes less easy with the addition of more movable parts, and I was suggesting that a global mission has alot of movable parts and must be hard to simplify. Since it includes anyone and everyone of the planet who wants to check it out, the parameters of mental, intellectual, moral and all other human attributes becomes huge and unwieldy. This was not presented as a defense, but as an observation. Perhaps because of this, a Vonnegutian universe is exactly what we live in, with all the abrupt changes going on in all realms and shaking the foundations of all institutions which very much impacts on all of us, especially the kids, the next generation to rule. I understand what you mean about the duck. But just to play the devil's advocate (just a figure of speech...) I know that India is not the USA and also read that BBJ gave M alot of flak over there legally. So perhaps in the eyes of the ones who pulled this switcheroo with the vehicular manslaughter, they were acting in a paradigm that dictated it was OK to do what they did. In order to even entertain this idea - not even to agree or disagree with it, but just to entertain it - requires the temporary suspension of one's own values. I have no doubt that Randy and the others thought they were serving the Lord when they changed cars. Their intent was cool, but if it was me there, I THINK I would have had a very serious life altering experience that would have required me to seek God elsewhere. Better?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 03:42:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: But, shp, what about the other 'perhaps' s? Message:

Perhaps because of this, a Vonnegutian universe is exactly what we live in, with all the abrupt changes going on in all realms and shaking the foundations of all institutions which very much impacts on all of us, especially the kids, the next generation to rule. This is what I was criticizing you for before I took a break. You keep talking about these faint possibilites but what about all the other more likely alternatives? I mean, shp, if you're not careful you could spend the rest of your life doing this. Balance it out, why don't you. If you feel it's important to muse aloud that 'perhaps in the eyes of the ones who pulled this switcheroo with the vehicular manslaughter, they were acting in a paradigm that dictated it was OK to do what they did' don't you think it'd be a lot fuller and more balanced to place this possibility in some greater context? Yes, for sure, that's a possibility. But it's so amazingly unlikely that it's really not worth mentioning. And to mention it without citing it's trifling likelihood is misleading, to you and anyone you're talking to. After all, people don't usually mention possibilities unless they think they're really worth considering. It's not as if we're a bunch of grade four kids practising brainstorming ('Now class, I want you to think of all the many things you can do with a cat. It doesn't matter how silly your idea might be, the purpose of the exercise is to just let your imagination run wild. So let's see how many things we can come up with.'). We're trying to determine the truth here. All speculation, I would think, should be directed to that end. Capiche? In this case, I can tell you, it is almost unfathomable that even in India there exists some 'paradigm' that condones Maharaji's actions in this matter. Now, again, I won't say that it's impossible. I'm no Indian lawyer, after all. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But it's so damned unlikely one does have to wonder why you'd even mention it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 07:51:01 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why I'd even mention it... Message:

In the land of Krishna, who allegedly told Arjuna long ago in another Kali Yuga, to go ahead and kill everyone because they were dead anyway, to switch drivers to protect one's master does not sound like something so terrible....even though it may sound terrible to you and to me. This isn't about how many things one can do with a cat. Please don't get patronizing and condescending. You ask why do I entertain such thoughts and I can say chill and live your life and don't presume to know why or how others live theirs. Each of us has to be at peace with ourselves on our own terms, not yours or mine. There is so much shit happening in the world today one can go crazy trying to sort it all out. If you have an opinion or a stand on something, great. If it resonates truth to me you don't have to sell it to me. I think you want me to become as outspoken as you are and behave as you do and say regarding Maharaji. That is not the measure of who I am or what I believe. We all manifest differently. All I can say is that I felt like I was in an Orwell excerpt from '1984' when I read the EV FAQ's and some of the 'history'. That's not what I remember. That's not what happened. That's not how it went down. But I am smart enough to know a good pr machine when I get run over by it, and I am also smart enough to know how the chi moves, regardless of the concepts of right and wrong. Look at the US elections. Everybody knew what was going down and it went down anyway. Usurpation took place by right of nothing more than bravado, posing and general public apathy. And the 'American people' accepted it, because they were getting bored and uptight since the average span of attention of the average American is about as long as a sitcom and this mess was taking way too long and making everybody's head hurt from concentrating on one thing way too long, you know? If Thomas Jefferson were still alive (and I know he was no saint), he would either be organizing in the streets for revolution, be a wanted man, in jail or already politically dealt with, with 'extreme prejudice'. This is what our world has come to. As for me, I continue to seek the 'reconstruction crews' as I have done my whole adult life, to ally myself with those who will be around after the old system topples over from its own topheaviness, and to participate in the rebuilding of society in the way of harmony with humanity and nature. Western Canada must be nice. I hope to see it someday. Take care, Sandy I just saw the movie 'Magnolia'. I recommend it highly. Some of it pertains to our conversation here in broad strokes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:41:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Goddamit, shp! Message:

In the land of Krishna, who allegedly told Arjuna long ago in another Kali Yuga, to go ahead and kill everyone because they were dead anyway, to switch drivers to protect one's master does not sound like something so terrible....even though it may sound terrible to you and to me. This is such nonsense and you know it. Are you actually saying that you think that Indian socity or the the Indian legal system might possibly condone fatal hit and runs and obstruction of justice? That's absurd. But, then, even if you DID think this was a possibility, the question remains, how likely is it? And what about all the alternative explanations, especially, of course, the ones that have much greater likelihood? That is what I'm trying to ask you about. I'm sorry, shp, but for all the talk about how 'brave' you are and everything, all the good will exes are willing to extend you here, you seem to be as evasive as ever. Is ther esomething about my question that offends you? Is there something about being asked why you'd mention a possibility that really, in borad daylight, might warrant, say .00005 per cent faith without discussing all the other possibilities that are exceedingly more likely? Because that's the question I've been trying to ask you which you've neve answered. But what's your answer when I do?: This isn't about how many things one can do with a cat. Please don't get patronizing and condescending. You ask why do I entertain such thoughts and I can say chill and live your life and don't presume to know why or how others live theirs. Each of us has to be at peace with ourselves on our own terms, not yours or mine. Well, the cat example was called an 'analogy'. Sorry you didn't see the parallel. You're more than willing to spout some bullshit about Arjuna and the racetrack. That's perfectly relevant, I'm sure, but when I resort to an analogy you somehow don't get it. Hm, I wonder. And you can fuck off with the rest of your sentiment aboe too. What a new-age pompous way of saying that you don't want to answer the question. Try to put it on me that I'm somehow bulldozing over your natural boundaires by asking you to explain yourself. I don't know, shp. For all the earnest support you get here (shp, you're a good man', 'shp, you're a brave man') you seem like you're every bit as evasive as ever. My question was a good, honest and reasonable one. How dare you try to blame me for asking it! How would you like it if Dettmers, for example, answered your own questions like that? You wouldn't. Don't play games.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 04:05:33 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Dammit, Jim, I'm only a doctor!(Just had to say) Message:

You asked for that one. I don't solicit any compliments or insults here. Seems I don't pass YOUR muster, so it's back to the old shit? No way. What I am saying and thought I already implied is that whatever I believe does not mean a hoot to anyone else but me, and anyone who happens to resonate at the same frequency on the same subject, and same goes for you and everyone else too. I personally think what happened on the road in India that day was downright terrible based on what I think is right action even for a Buddha, who is the epitome and embodiment of all the noble truths including right action. I also believe that there is great change afoot and I cannot say with certainty that there cannot be a master of Knowledge who also has done some very strange and unethical things to the point of vehicular manslaughter. Forget good and bad, we are way beyond that continuum. Personally, it totally repulses me. I look at being a parent as a reflection of the relationship of the Creator to human beings, as above, so below, etc. Not a power trip, but a similar feeling shared by many parents I have spoken to...being a person who is trying to be a conscious parent brings one closer to God. If I ever did something that was an accident but was not very pretty, I would never hide it because I know that all secrets are revealed. I would rather tell my sons up front what happened rather than hear it from another source and discover that I had lied to them to save face or for convenience. It would be the antithesis of what I am trying to teach them as responsible young men. Opposite of the way of the world. Maybe I'm the fool, who knows. But as of this writing I'd rather be a fool. Does this fire up your dilithium crystals, Jim?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:58:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: P.S. Message:

Magnolia was a great movie with a completely bullshit ending. The relevance here escapes me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 18:08:35 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Magnolia... Message:

Me and TD watched Magnolia on vid today. Shit, it goes on forever - but what an all-consuming experience. Great movie. Can't say whether or not the end was any good - we had to get the video back to the shop prior to new years eve festivities... (hic - hope yours was as good as mine!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:06:03 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: shp Subject: Even more reason for Occams Razor I reckon, Message:

when you're loaded with baggage, even more need to keep it simple. So says hamzen, the basho poetry lover

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:16:05 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: ham Subject: Even more reason for Occams Razor I reckon, Message:

True, but have you ever travelled with babies in planes across country? You can only get it so simple and then there's the walker and the diaper bags and the toys and the... Hey we are almost doing real time here.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 01:28:22 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: shp Subject: How old are your nippers then? Message:

By the way shp, a couple of your posts have been really impressive recently, like you're coming in to land, and very eloquent. And now only teasing,well 50/50, I reckon if you could let the god wings go you'd be sailing under your own sails as free as, as, oh shit can't think of anything but the old cliche, free as a bird. Admire your courage, know it can't have been an easy ride the last coupla years, but alongside the scary side of it all just know you must be starting to feel the baggage lightening and the sense of freedom, which doesn't mean no values, I'm sure you know what I'm saying

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: hamzen Subject: How old are your nippers then? Message:

'By the way shp, a couple of your posts have been really impressive recently, like you're coming in to land, and very eloquent.' -ham Love makes poets of us all. -shp 'And now only teasing,well 50/50, I reckon if you could let the god wings go you'd be sailing under your own sails as free as, as, oh shit can't think of anything but the old cliche, free as a bird.' -ham Please explain 'let the god wings go'... -shp 'Admire your courage, know it can't have been an easy ride the last coupla years, but alongside the scary side of it all just know you must be starting to feel the baggage lightening and the sense of freedom, which doesn't mean no values, I'm sure you know what I'm saying.' -ham Ham, please post your e-mail. I know what you are saying, but if this was a cocktail party, now would be the time we'd find a couple of easy chairs, take our drinks and go hang out in a nice quiet corner and talk. (No, I'm not hitting on you. Men talk too, not just women.) And since it's close to New Year's, let's have a private chat. I'd like to share some things off-line. (No offense to the rest of yas...!) The nippers are 12-1/2 and 16-1/2. We took them to California in 1989 when they were only about 1 and 5. What a trip!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 02:45:53 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk To: shp Subject: As requested shp, no sweat Message:

Re god wings, just referring to seeing god as a seperate entity, instead of everybody/everything all being it. Personally I always had problems with the god concept, but experiences I've had have let me see how some people could jump to that one. I see the concept as a bag for stuff people find too overpowering, not able to conceptualize about etc, and also as a way of avoiding responsibility for self as godhead, either thru fear of being overwhelmed, or fear of losing those 'feelings' through a lack of humility. In an article I saw on the magnet over brain experiement, producing experiences of god even for atheists, one fella didn't think the presence he felt was a seperate entity, he thought he was experiencing himself so stretched he was seeing himself race ahead, which for some reason reminds me of descriptions I've read about dmt and hearing a sound like powerfully and quickly stretched plastic, as though the fabric of reality was being stretched. Then we have dmt in our bodies produced naturally, a drug that produces white light, an experience of cosmic love, universal sounds etc etc. This all links in with the god wings comment. My theory for what it's worth is that when those chemicals get activated sensitivity levels get so accentuated, as though everything is suddenly massively magnified, and the only way our brains can cope, make sense of, is to posit some other, seperate presence, whereas if we could find the courage to go past that barrier we'd just see a different scale, an expanded reality model. After all the normalcy of what we call reality is dependent on certain chemicals, alter just one hormone and reality changes drastically, so what would increased dmt, or serotonin levels (serotonin is almost identical to ecstacy and THE key nerve cell chemical), or melatonin (pineal gland), almost identical to mescalin, blah de blah, you get the drift. Even if you were coming on I wouldn't have a problem, I can be a terrible flirt meself with both sexes and I'm strictly hetero, well so far, so no sweat yeah.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 08:08:13 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: hamzen Subject: The 'businessman's lunch' and all that... Message:

I'm aware of the brain's chemicals being the originals, and acid, ectasy, dmt (also called 'businessman's lunch due to the 20 minute trip) and many others being surrogates and catalysts for us to feel something of what it must have been like on the plains of Africa 15,000 years ago with the mushroom mother of us all, as Terrence McKenna used to put it, rest and bless his soul. I think God is in each of us, all of us collectively, and capable of manifesting any way it wants to or needs to in order to make contact with a particle of its creation (us) who is crying out for the experience of contact and love, just like a baby in a crib who really needs to feel its parents or its guardians. I am getting involved with the Nikken company soon. They deal in magnets bigtime. I am going to ask someone in the group about this phenomenon, if he has heard anything about it. I looked for my God, and God I could not see. I looked for my soul, it was nowhere to be. I looked for my brother and found all three.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 22:58:33 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Season's Greeting's, Jim Message:

So John Lennon's lyrics may well be the gospel after all: 'Whatever gets you through the night is alright, is alright.' And each of us must face the Mirror and be able to really fully smile at and be at peace with that face in the reflection and what is behind it - and I don't mean the medicine chest - no matter what anyone else thinks or says.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:23:49 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master Message:

Excellent post Nigel!!! And excellent line of argument. Conflict is the true test of character. I read somewhere that when writing a romance novel, one should not only get one's protagonist up a tree but then throw rocks at her (metaphorically speaking). Only then can the reader see the heroine's true mettle. The only kind of character M can be according to these writing conventions could be the worst sort of petty minded, pathetic villian, the type of little man everyone loves to see get his in the end. And it's actually happening in our true life unfolding story, he is getting his, and it's pretty exhilirating!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:36:00 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Nigel Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master Message:

Superb Post, Nigel...it's hard to see how a 'practising' premie can overlook such logic. When asked if I am 'practising' I usually respond.'No, I've got the hang of it now'. Footnote: In China they used to call criminals 'Teachers by negative example'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:22:09 (GMT) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Nigel Subject: As usual..... Message:

Nigel, solid and superb..... as usual! Geez, I go away for a while and come back to find that my lard and scheister killed someone and ran-away. And I thought the Jagdeo incident(s) was/were serious. Any last vestige of a claim to moral authority just went out the window, now didn't it? Ok, back into the shadows for me :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 15:42:57 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Bad things happen - the Measure of a Master Message:

Nigel: Thanks. Essentially what I've been saying for a long time. If Maharaji is God then it's just as reasonable as proposing that Jon Benet Ramsey was killed in self-defense. The Universe *could* be that perverse, but I choose to believe otherwise. --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 16:37:23 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: And if the universe was that perverse, Message:

and he is the master, then it's time to fight god. Also he's so useless at his job that no-ones left, and nobodies interested in joining, so he's incompetent too. Maybe it's all his lila, so we can finally realize god by letting go of the master. Maybe by driving everyone away, he's showing his compassion because us dorks would never leave. His compassion is overpowering. No wonder anyone who leaves has rotting vegetables to sort out, if our logic was any more contorted we'd all have ended up in institutions or or... And then I remember all the suicides exactly because of all this illogic. Nuff said.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:36:56 (GMT) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: ham Subject: Hammy, hammy, hammy Message:

Ham, I only have one rhetorical question to ask (rhetorical because I know that no living premie will even attempt an answer): 'WHO says' that 'god' is illogical anyway? I mean, let's look at this somewhat 'logically.' The entire known universe obeys a set of laws that 'god' was supposed to have put in place. We've spent eons trying to learn all we can about those laws and how they work/interact. It's pretty amazing stuff, actually. The deeper we look, the simpler it all becomes. Atoms, subatomic particales, quarks.... simple and LOGICAL behavior. It doesn't become less logical, it becomes MORE LOGICAL (and believable/understandable, too!)........ NOW, comes these morons that insist that 'god' is some supreme being totally devoid of any logic and, thus, cannot possibly be understood using logic/intelligence or by examining the very same laws that this supposed being put into place in the first place...... Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense, at all. WHO SAYS you can't use your brain to discover whether there is a 'god' or not? WE KNOW WHO...... The men-who-would-be gods, because they haven't got the slightest inkling of a notion as to how this all works (the universe, that is). Since they can't explain the first thing about 'creation,' the only method they can employ to make themselves seem superior is by saying that 'god' is totally 'different' from the very logical universe that he/she/it created and thus cannot possibly be understood by the very mind/intelligence/brain that he/she/it created. What a line of crap! I have a question: Why is it that these men-who-would-be-greater-than-god can't explain the first thing about genetics, astonomy, chemistry, physics, evolution or anything else that they supposedly 'created?' I KNOW, I KNOW.... it isn't really important and we shouldn't waste god's time asking these very natural questions that spring forth from the very thing that was put in place to formulate them (e.g. the BRAIN!) Ok, back into my den of iniquity....... with a glass of holiday port and a fine H. Upmann Robusto.... :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 20:50:03 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Hammy, hammy, hammy Message:

Red: 'WHO says' that 'god' is illogical anyway? I mean, let's look at this somewhat 'logically.' The entire known universe obeys a set of laws that 'god' was supposed to have put in place. We've spent eons trying to learn all we can about those laws and how they work/interact. It's pretty amazing stuff, actually. The deeper we look, the simpler it all becomes. Atoms, subatomic particales, quarks.... simple and LOGICAL behavior. It doesn't become less logical, it becomes MORE LOGICAL (and believable/understandable, too!)........ Two problems, the first is somewhat generic while the second is more specific. 1. I think we seem to be uncovering more and more resolution or detail about the universe, but that represents it's own sort of problem. We know, for instance, that the process of resolving the basic nature and components of matter can't end with matter. If it did it would always suggest further resolution and subdivision. So the very issue of resolution is a part of the 'logical' structure of universe, with which we have not yet dealt in a systematic way. It remains completely unresolved. We just avoid it. 2. We make judgments about the logical behavior of individuals based upon the degree to which that behavior serves self interest and self preservation. Since God has no self interest, or impulse to self preservation, then his behavior (or lack of it) is difficult to judge from a logical perspective. This is why we have approximately zero insight into the nature of God, or what that nature might motivate such a being to do in order to remain consistent. While this is a *real* handicap, I don't think it's particularly important when when it comes to invididuals like Maharaji. The mere fact that they are so consistently self interested serves as a red flag. Maharaji's behavior doesn't violate logic in any way, and we have a consistent and perfectly adequate explanation for what he does. There is not even a whiff of god-like behavior to worry about. --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:18:37 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Hammy, hammy, hammy Message:

Dear Redneck, If you are a reincarnation of someone else and who I think/hope it is, Welcome back! :) You've been missed. :) Love, Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:41:12 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Robyn Subject: I'll second that BIGTIME (nt) Message:

a

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 23:13:02 (GMT) From: born again pagan Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Don't start nuthin, Redneck Message:

Hey NA RED,with those strong arms of yourn' dint you used ta throw javelin?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 19:33:11 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: New-Age Redneck Subject: That Was Good - Do I Know You? Message:

I was just thinking the same thing. Well put. Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 27, 2000 at 17:27:31 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: ham Subject: And if the universe was that perverse, Message:

'if our logic was any more contorted' then.... excellent post, hammie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index