Livia -:- blind faith -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:23:59 (EST)

__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: blind faith -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:57:50 (EST)

__ __ Steve Mueller -:- More on the frog, his well and the EPO ocean -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:27:42 (EST)

__ __ __ Ddermot -:- Really fantastic post Steve -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:32:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Dammit, keep putting 2 D's to my name [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:35:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Steve, this is great! BEST OF''nt -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:24:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- I second that! Excellent, Steve! (NT) -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:36:42 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Steve. Very well said. [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:04:23 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Faith needs to be shaken -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:54:24 (EST)

__ __ Anandaji -:- Re: Faith needs to be shaken -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:52:21 (EST)

__ __ __ 007 -:- Faith needs to be shaken not stirred nt -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 19:08:55 (EST)

Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:23:59 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: blind faith
Message:

A thought. I had a look at an anti-Sai Baba site the other day to see what's going on there. (Easy to find - there's loads of them. Just type in 'anti' and 'Sai Baba' at Google, and up comes lots of stuff.) Anyway, there are all these ex Sai Baba devotees there telling anguished tales of Sai Baba sexually abusing young boys and men, which has apparently been going on for years and years. They tell stories of how even when they knew it was happening or experienced it themselves, they tried to explain it away by putting it down to Sai Baba's inexplicable divine ways etc.....

I have a close friend who is a Sai Baba devotee. I thought: 'I must tell her this.' Then I tried to anticipate her reaction, and of course it'll be this: 'Oh for god's sake you didn't believe all THAT, did you? Those people are seriously screwed up, they don't meditate, they've lost their faith, they've fallen into maya, you don't want to believe any of that!!!'

I know for a fact she won't even want to check out the site and examine these allegations. BECAUSE SHE DAREN'T RISK JEAPORDISING HER FAITH. In the last few days I have suggested to a couple of premies that they at least check out EPO sometime. Surely if their experience is true and genuine they need have nothing to fear. But their reaction is rigid and fearful. 'Why would I want to look at that?' said one. 'Why would I want to swim around in all that muck?' 'How do you know it's muck if you don't look?' I responded, reasonably enough you'd think. But no, they are definitely afraid to look, because they DON'T WANT THEIR FAITH SHAKEN.

They would see this clearly in my Sai Baba devotee friend, but it is virtually impossible for them to see it in themselves, because the brainwashing runs so very, very deep.

Any thoughts?

With love to you all, Livia

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:57:50 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: blind faith
Message:

Here's why: Some frogs just DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THE SECURITY OF THEIR WELL. They are petrified of the unknown - even when told that there is an incredible ocean topside, a short distance from their well, that is millions of times bigger and better than their stupid little well. Exes are risk-takers...and they have loads of courage. Not everyone does.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:27:42 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: More on the frog, his well and the EPO ocean
Message:

Here's why: Some frogs just DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THE SECURITY OF THEIR WELL. They are petrified of the unknown - even when told that there is an incredible ocean topside, a short distance from their well, that is millions of times bigger and better than their stupid little well. Exes are risk-takers...and they have loads of courage. Not everyone does.


---

If you'll bear with me, I'd like to expand on the Frog in the Well versus the Frog and the Ocean a bit further.

Until I learned about and started reading the EPO website, I loved M deeply. I won't say I attributed everything nice that happened to me to him, but I did think of him a lot and actually gave him credit (as in silently praying: 'thank you M' to myself) for a lot of it. I really and truly believed he was controlling my experiences, what premies used to call lilas. Several local Minneapolis premies, if they are honest about it, can attest to my love and devotion for him. I attended many festivals back in the 70's, including Guru Puja '73 in London and Hans Jayanti '77 in Rome. I used to keep a little 2 inch by 3 inch color photo of him in his Krishna crown in my wallet. I blew it up to 8 inch by 11 inches and personally hand-delivered about 8 or 9 copies to some of the more active Minneapolis premies. I composed some pretty good devotional poems and prose sayings of my own out of my own inspiration and devotion and handed or mailed these out to many people. And, while my practical, conservative side kept me from diverting precious retirement money to travelling to M's programs, I regularly attended video programs, supported Mpls Resources, practiced K (well, at least Holy Name) and maintained a very tight and $upportive friendship with a local premie whose name I won't mention here. Quite frankly, it was the devotion of this premie for M that kept me from exing early, I'm sure of it. Anyone who knew me knew that I loved M and K back then, very much.

Then, by accident, really, I happened to learn about EPO (from a premie) and I tuned in to it. Because I had lived in many other communities besides Minneapolis, most notably Toronto and Denver, I recognized the names of a number of the individuals (most notably Dettmers and Mishler) who had done major revelations. I had no reason to doubt their veracity. What they and others said was absolutely horrifying and shocking to me. After I recovered from the initial shock, I grew very angry that the whole thing I had involved myself in had been nothing more than an evil con game to mind-fuck me into giving M my money to make him rich and allow him to be worshipped like God. In short, a cult. It made me very very VERY angry. At M. Not at the vast majority of his premie victims. At M - and to a lesser extent, to a few of his closest PAM's who, it sounded like, knew better but stuck around anyway to bask in the trickledown of his stolen wealth. The phrase: 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned' aint nothin compared to the fury (and, dare I say, rage) felt by former premies who realize how M has taken them for a ride, a very greedy and cruel brainwashing ride. Now this is coming from me, a married person, who never even made the total commitment that those who joined the ashram did. I can't imagine how incredibly ANGRY, REALLY REALLY ANGRY they must feel. They must be absolutely FURIOUS! Especially those like Marianne who were prevented from visiting their families during extremely stressful, family emergency situations. I mean, I can't imagine how incredibly hurt and angry they must be or have been.

It is this kind of hurt, anger and bitter resentment that has fueled those of us who have exed, those of us who have made a complete break with M and his followers (both the vast majority of (relatively innocent, unsuspecting) Hitler Jugen premies whose devotion I respect and for whom I have compassion and the tiny minority of EPO-hacking, SS-Pseudo premies who I despise nearly as much as M) who choose to ignore (or even attack) EPO and to continue worshipping M like God. It is this anger that I have noticed on EPO and that I too have indulged in. These people were hurt very very badly. They have a right to be angry. And thank God we live in a country that gives them the legal right to express their anger without fear of retribution or persecution by government or some other corporate entity. They are in various stages of trying to recover from M. They are going through a healing process to regain a sense of reality and wholeness to themselves that is not based upon M, his lies, and his cult. They are progressing as best as they can and the thing I've come to learn about progress is that it is not always a pretty sight. Something old has to be sacrificed, has to give to make way for something new. (Not exactly an original or profound idea - we've heard it before as: two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time).

The significance of all of this has a profound and unavoidable implication for myself. I have found during a personal interaction with my dear premie friend (who I still love dearly) after I exed that, since I had exed, the basis that had brought us together: mutual love for and devotion to M is gone. The premie felt hurt by my disdain (perhaps even hatred) of M and I felt estranged, weird, extremely awkward (as in: I do not belong here anymore) while in the presence of the premie. Both of us knew how the other felt. We did not argue with each other. We loved each other (then and still, I'm sure) but we were both aware that, under the circumstances, given what we knew about each other's feelings toward M, and given the emotional investment of nearly 30 years each of us had made in him, that there just was no point in seeing each other any more. It was just too painful for both of us. I want to emphasize that I don't criticize the premie for his/her beliefs in M and I'm sure the premie probably feels great sadness that we can no longer share the closeness we once did. I respect the premie's right to follow his/her heart and I'm sure he/she feels the same towards me. But the fact remains that the pain we felt during our last visit together made it unmistakenly clear that we were on VASTLY different paths now and there just was no point seeing each other again under the current circumstances. It is sad, but, hey, that's the way it is. I can't change that. We are both following our hearts but in different directions.

I'm mentioning all of this because I get the impression that some people in various stages of exing harbor some residual anger (or at least resentment) against the exes who have posted on EPO for the remarks that some have made about premies. Using myself as an example, I just got done saying that I felt that some premies are afraid of leaving their well of M/K/EV/premie community security to even check out the possibility that there might be a liberating EPO ocean out there. (This is a new take on an old story by M from the early 70's. M used it to illustrate the difficulty in convincing non-premies towards becoming premies. I used it here to illustrate the difficulty premies may have from becoming ex-premies.) I get the impression that some may be taking my newly applied analogy as a criticism of the premies, especially where they still wish to maintain friendship with them. I am not attacking any premie's sincerity. I KNOW they mean well. I do. I've been there. I know what it's like. I'm not attacking them. But, based upon the personal growth many (I won't include myself yet because I'm still new at this) have undergone since exing, I can see from studying their posts that exes have come to understand how evil, how restrictive, how insidious and how pervasive M's brainwashing was on them and others still trying to emerge from his evil grip.

For myself, I have come to realize that I can't have it both ways: being a premie and being a non-premie at the same time, nor do I want to. I know from my own experience that it can't be done. The chasm between believing in M and seeing through his lies is just way too vast a gorge to bridge by pretending that one side doesn't matter when dealing with the other side. In order to have a sense of personal integrity (being true to yourself and making, taking a stand as to what your values are), I don't see how anyone can expect to successfully play both sides, to ride the fence, as it were. I had to decide what I could and couldn't live with. (And, believe me, that was not easy, because, as diminished as the local community of premies was from the heyday of the 70's, it still represented my major source of social interaction. I am now in the process of building a whole new one.) For me, it became clear by Dec 9 of last year that that meant dumping M and all the lies and abominableness he represented. So, that's my attitude and the way I feel towards (non-SS-type) premies: with sadness but also compassion for their unrecognized suffering. And, I respect and will defend to the death, if necessary, their right to follow their hearts.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:32:35 (EST)
From: Ddermot
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Really fantastic post Steve
Message:

For a long time, certain premies I've known just haven't been in touch with me for quite some. People I was very close to. Well, to be fair, I haven't been in touch with them either!

However, I have kept in touch with some premies and I realise in their way they're following their heart, just as I am mine. One of these, the mother of my daughter, I keep in touch with once every little while and I just can't fault her. More than ANY other premie I've know she sincerely LOVES meditation and following from that M and his discourses. I know from my point of view I see the M aspect of that experience of her WRONG and IRRELEVANT but somehow I just can't get into a big showdown about it.

She's also brought up three truly wonderful, un-fucked up/un-Maharji brainwashed daughters too, in spite of her own total love for M and K, so I can't fault her there either.. I had to speak to her the other night on the phone (we live in different towns)because I had to relay some terribly tragic news and also just talk about our daughter who's trekking around Australia at the momentwith her boyfriend. I just didn't WANT to get into a big 'ex V premeie' thing with her. I kinda felt how I feel toward my Ma, who's a staunch Roman Catholic or to anyone who's got their own inner/religious point of view. Sort of like it was personal and nothing to do with me, even though I myself can't bear the Catholic church or M and his organisation anyymore.

I kinda allow myself more liberty online because it IS a public discussion board and the premies who post online are also going PUBLIC.I don't therefore compromise my views as a result but sometimes, especialy if I'm posting/communicating with a SINCERE premie....a non SS type as you put it....I sometimes feel like I'm bursting the 'bubble' of their innocence and It makes me feel a bit sorry for them. However, I also think the more online ones, the forum savvy ones , even if they are SINCERE, know the arguments that have been made and know the info on EPO. I think the arguments of exes are so convincing that somehow if exposed to them yet still blindly acquiesce to M, then they are just not totally facing up to things. In that sense then, in spite of my feeling a bit like a party pooper, I have no option but to state my case without regard for their PERSONAL path/religion whatever.

Funnily enough, I was thinking only last night , I have many premie friends who in every other regard are great people, sussed people but the blind spot for M as hteir master is their only cultish aspect.Once you've seen through M (and that isn't so easy....as Joe pointed out elsewhere, he's SOOO confident in his belief that he's the Master and DESERVES premies)it just seems so utterly ridiculous for these otherwise great people to be his APOLOGISTS , no matter what.

It's weird but ultimately as the old saying goes 'to thine own self be true'

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:35:08 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Ddermot
Subject: Dammit, keep putting 2 D's to my name [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:24:25 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Steve, this is great! BEST OF''nt
Message:

agf

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:36:42 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I second that! Excellent, Steve! (NT)
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:04:23 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Thanks, Steve. Very well said. [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:54:24 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Faith needs to be shaken
Message:

Any closed belief system needs a crack to prise it open. When I came to EPO, I think I had loads of cracks, so just reading EPO shattered to whole edifice. Your friends must have some cracks somewhere, but are afraid to go near them. Don't push them, it will happen. They know about the site now (which will be back soon), and one evening, when Maharaji's darshan is far away, and no one can see them, they will check out EPO and swim around in all the muck, and come up cleaner than ever:-)

John.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:52:21 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Faith needs to be shaken
Message:

I never pursuaded one person to come to K, and I don't feel I will be much better with this, especially with a lot of words and debate.

I came to EPO because one person, a practicing premie!, just happened to mention in passing that if you did a search for 'Maharaji' on the Net, there is a site there of ex-premies. Curiousity got to me and here I am.

Actually, I did get one premie (long out of active involvement) to have a look by simply emailing him with a simple message: 'Hey, Paul, check out ex-premie.org.' Lo and behold he did and we've been having some lively conversations.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 19:08:55 (EST)
From: 007
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Faith needs to be shaken not stirred nt
Message:

[nt]

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