OTS -:- Harry's Response to Tonette -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:37:29 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Criticism -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:36:23 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:08:21 (EST)

__ __ OTS -:- Apologizing -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 21:10:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- I love a person who can ... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:32:53 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Oops! OTS. Hell hath no fury.... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:43:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Here's the full quote... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:42:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Here's the full quote... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:09:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- Sorry, no cigar -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 04:50:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You go WOMAN! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:35:07 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Tonette, Cynthia, OTS -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:21:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I hope OTS posts here all that he wants -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:00:47 (EST)

__ __ Francesca -:- Re: Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 18:40:16 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- I'm a Tonette fan ;) [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'm a Tonette fan, too...:) [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:36:51 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Just meditate, brother -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:20:47 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Tonette was completely right -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:17:22 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- But you're wrong, Jim -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:16:39 (EST)

__ Disculta -:- Yo OTS -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:57:32 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Please Don't Be Afraid of Me... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:36:41 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- The Forum is Ephemeral. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:36:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Have we met? You look familiar ;) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 21:06:22 (EST)

__ __ Gina -:- What an honest, compassionate response (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:17:59 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- Re: Harry's Response to Tonette -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:08:13 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Aren't you up kinda late? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:16:42 (EST)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- 12-20pm...late? Not really. [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- AM ...duhh [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Go to bed Dermot. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:41:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Across the pond folks..OT -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:51:52 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Not as late as me -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:17 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Hey OTS, WHOA -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:51:58 (EST)

__ housemum -:- careful shutting people up, OTS -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:31:02 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Very well said -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 18:02:42 (EST)

__ JHB -:- *** Best of Forum - Great Post, OTS *** -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:52:52 (EST)

__ __ Nigel -:- No - bad precedent, John.. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:12 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Of course you're right, Nige -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:36 (EST)

Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:37:29 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Harry's Response to Tonette
Message:

In a thread way down below, a premie named Harry responds to a “gem” by Tonette as follows:

Hi Tonette,

Happy Birthday, first of all.

You probably won't care, but virtually everything you wrote here regarding Maharaji, Pia and Maharaji's not 'showing up' when people who he knows and loves are ill or dying is flat-out untrue.

Your characterization of Pia's site as 'twisted and hateful' is your own opinion, but Pia knew Maharaji very well and wanted to spend the end of her life responding to and combating what she saw (and many others including I see) as the utterly false and increasingly nasty Web lynching of Maharaji in progress. That's what she chose to do, knowing she wasn't long for this world.

He did spend time with her shortly before she passed. Afterwards, he acknowledged her, saluted her spirit and quoted her on at least 3 different occasions, publically, that I'm aware of. You also lost your $100 bet. I'll gladly take the money if you have no other place to send it. I won't violate Ole and Pia's privacy but you're dead wrong on all counts.

Maharaji has visited, called, held hands with and spoken intimately with many people at their point of departure. He has done so with 3 dear friends of mine and others that I'm well aware of. He's done this quietly and discreetly, and though I have no need nor hope that you'll believe it, his kindness and concern for those people left an indelible impression on their loved ones and 'survivors.'

Personally, it meant a lot to ME that he cared about my (and his) friends and acted on it.

Believe what you want, but it doesn't reflect the real guy, Maharaji, at all. Very little here does.

There are so many other false or gossipy things here I could comment on...but this particular one, regarding Maharaji's commitment over the long term to those who have devoted their time and love to him, cannot be left to stand so nakedly false without a response. Had to say it.

I hope you have a great Birthday night and perhaps in the future, you might think twice before commenting with assumed 'authority' about people, facts and events you're unfamiliar with.

best to you, Harry

* * *

Here’s the “gem” by Tonette that set him to posting:

Exactly how many funerals has Maharaji attended of his devotees who have died. Specifcally, his ashram members, who were extraordinarily instrumental in building his wealth. Huh? Gee, if someone sent me even 10% of their income because I was such an awesome person, don't you think that if I gave a rat's ass about them, I would at least show up for their funeral? In my private jet for pete's sake? Talk about easy but more than that, the right thing to do.

And Maharaji, you SOB, how you used Pia even in her death! For a little history this was a long term devotee who died recently(this past year) She, Pia, launched a very twisted and hateful site to discredit EPO and what was happening on the web. This site was called 'it ain't so.' It was the start of and in very many ways mirrored the CAC attacks. A precursor to what was to come. Pia was dying at the time, God bless her soul. She died. But Maharaji in his never ever ability to use people, mentioned her in one of his 'discourses.' Obtusely. He never gave her a real recognition, nor a congradulatory acknowledgement on all her work with her site in countering the ex presence. He used her even in death. What a bastard!

And I would bet $100 that Maharaji, in his careful, loving recognition of this devotee of many, many years did not so much as send a note, or flowers, much less attend her funeral.

Yet he continued to use Pia, even after her death.
That is what you are up against, 210.

But it is all so beautiful. Yeah_right.

My two shakes.

Warmly, Tonette

* * *

Since no one has responded to Mr. Harry, I don’t want him to feel bad, like he’s getting no attention whatsoever and go away mad, so here goes a short one:

Harry: I kind of relate to what you said about Tonette perhaps not knowing what she’s talking about sometimes. I also hated this post of hers you responded to. It was so tacky and without backbone and mean. I was embarrassed when I read it. Even though Tonette and I are “on the same side” regarding the EPO and posting, doesn’t mean I like or dislike everyone’s attitude here. I don’t. I hate the nastiness. (Note to Cynthia: Please lighten up. You’re scaring people.) It’s these kinda posts that are pushing me slowly away from this Forum and steering me to write my goodbye speech like Swami Suchabanana below. I know soon I’ll be leaving my daily EPO reading and writing about this stuff because it’s all too fucking much if you ask me. I gotta just get on with life. Get over my anger and pain. I and my therapist both feel that I have gained a lot from my conversations here, but it won’t go on for me for too much longer. Just too much bullshit from both sides. Too much immaturity to hang out with on a long-term basis. Not everybody, but just enough of some.

Good for you, Harry, sticking up for M, if that’s how you really feel. This is a free forum, and it takes guts to do what you’ve done. [Tonette can and does over-post at times, it seems to me, and sounds a little too weird for my tastes at times. I’m not really a Tonette fan, you could say, and I could do with less of her rantings. She seems to feel she needs to get her two cents in at every turn to every post and poster. But, even though I feel her post above was ugly, the issue on this chat forum is not Tonette, but M. But speculation by anyone is not helpful. But don’t blame her if she can’t get a whiff of your kind of reading material, like “PAM Magazine -- Must Reading for Those Near the Toes”. Maybe she’s just inhaled too much laundry powder in that little laundry room she lives in off her kitchenette or perhaps she picked up some nasty bug at the hospital where she practices nursing. No doubt about one thing -- she is one upset person and feels she’s getting a lot of assistance by being able to get it off her chest here. It’s making me and you somewhat ill, however. Ya take the good with the bad, and use what’s good for you, I guess.

But your blanket statement that very little about Maharaji on EPO/Forum 7 is true, I take issue with. Your post wants to just wash away all the facts of M’s insensitivity over 30 years because he was nice to a few close friends of yours. How about you? Will he be there at your end? How did these friends of yours get close? How did they hit the “Arjuna” lottery? How did the rest of us fail? Why were we so far away? Not devoted enough? Not rich enough? Not enough meditation? Bad clothes? Bad hair? Karma?

I take issue because what I personally have written about M myself and his lack of care for me on this Fourm7 chat was and is true, believe me. You relate this to an “utterly false and increasingly nasty Web lynching of Maharaji in progress.” Isn’t that a little off the wall? We’re just expressing ourselves as to what our experience has been and what we’ve seen. You speak about “the real guy, Maharaji.” I know him, I think. Isn’t he the one in the picture on my premie friend’s living room wall in the baby blue satin pants and actual flower top with a jeweled crown on his head, holding a flute showing off his Arthur Mary dance steps dancing to “Don’t you Think I’m Sexy” by Rod Stewart? Or, isn’t he the one on the golf cart who can’t ever stop and talk to you or me or anyone of your friends in 30 years -- because he can’t come down off the stage and get to know you or them or really care about any of you or us? Can’t learn from anyone. Can’t talk to anyone. Can’t share with anyone. Originally, he said he knew everything. Omniscient, he said he was. What happened? Was that the “real guy”? Is he not the Lord of the Universe? The Superior Power in Person? And when did he stop being so? What happened there? But why did he have us sing Arti too him just a few months ago? Will he be with every single one of his devotees at their darkest hour? Will he abandon some of them? Which ones? Or is the “real guy” the nice daddy of four beautiful kids and wife in Malibu? One happy nuclear family. Or is the “real guy” the one that his mother, Mataji, disinherited; or is he the one with the big Malibu mansion with security guardhouse, swimming pool, tennis court, recording studio and 14-bay garage filled with autos who flies a leased top-of-the-line executive jet around the world with a large entourage and production company to make more videos, tee shirts, photos, hats, logos and mugs for sale?

Wasn’t the “indelible impression” that Maharaji left on these deceased people’s families at their funerals/deathbeds really more like “Wow am I glad that this guy in the $1,000 suit is gone from THIS family forever. Did he work as a school teacher/social worker like my son/daughter for even one day in his life? What the fuck is his claim to fame that it took all of the attention of my child so far away from his spouse and children and parents for so many years that we were so happy when the ashrams closed we could have cried? Though over the last 20 years we could have built many playgrounds and funded after-school programs in our neighborhood with the large checks for cash that my kid had sent in to him. For what? To build his daughter a restaurant? For his continued adulation and gratification? Another antique BMW? Another new Lexus? How sad. At the end of the day, I was so glad for Pia’s website because I couldn’t understand what was upsetting to her and so I had to go to EPO to find out what was going on, since M’s EV is more secretive than the FBI. I found out what was going on. I’m history.

Your premise that his showing up at the deathbeds of your friends shows “Maharaji's commitment over the long term to those who have devoted their time and love to him” is crooked logic. Did he ever once answer any of my letters in this lifetime and answer the questions I had asked hm? Never. Why would he come to my funeral? Or call me in my last hours of life? Did he even acknowledge the wedding invitation we sent to him representing over 45 years of combined devotion from the bride and groom? Not a word in response. Were your friends some of the chosen few because they were rich and sent in their money regularly? How about the hundreds and hundreds of other full-time devotees that he cares zero about? Never met them. Never talked to them. Their funerals and deathbeds? I doubt it. Why, he doesn’t even know who they are? I don’t think he’d be there. Or, does he do this for the poor single mom 30-year devotee with the four flaky kids in a rented Milwaukee townhouse who couldn’t go to Australia (let alone Long Beach) to sing Arti to him last April or the farm worker from southern India who can only send in one rupee a month? Did he show up there for their deaths or funerals? Ever? How often? Did your friends in effect buy his visit at the end? Were they allowed to get to know him during their lifetimes based on anything other than their good looks, connections or money? Who was the last premie in Wisconsin or Michigan that M has talked with in this lifetime and when? What about those poor people who surrendered to him the reins of their lives, as he instructed them to, and dedicated their entire life’s work, income, family to his cause only to see him close the doors on them after 10 years and throw them out? Let alone answer their mail. Has he even thanked them or their families once in their lifetime, let alone at the end, at their deaths? Is he a humanitarian or a collector of wealthy things? At least the alleged crooks at United Way gave SOME of its collected funds to real charities doing real work for the less fortunate and didn’t just travel around the world for meetings and stay at fancy hotels and fly in private jets and eat at the best restaurants -- on all the dime of the donees -- like Maharaji with his “events.” Even his brother helps the less fortunate, it seems. Have a heart, man. Recently, M went to seven cities and let people talk to him after 30 years (no questions allowed because someone asked him if he meditated in an early event and he got very angry), but what about the premies in Caracus, Finland, Norway, Austria, Ivory Coast, Benin, Ghana? When do they get to meet Maharaji face to face and say anything? Can they afford his visit? Or should they just wait for the broadcast of the videotape. Harry, you’ve got a point there. Work harder to stay real close or you might not make the list, like Tonette.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:36:23 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Criticism
Message:

All criticism ever accomplishes is acrimony and hurt feelings. If one wishes to change behavior, criticism is a poor tool. Better to lead by example.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:08:21 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings?
Message:

Over posting?
Ugly posts?
Tonette fan, what the hell is that anyway? A couple of people wished me a happy birthday?
I'm wierd?
I have some sort of bacteria or virus I picked up from the hospital?
I live off a kitchenette?

Man, I hope your have an excellent therapist. I suggest, but I'm a little light headed from inhaling laundry soap, so I might be a little wierd, and forgive me if I am ranting, I think in your healing and making ammends with the life you wasted following the bullshit of Maharaji, that you print out a copy of how you just used me and talk about it in your next session with your therapist.

I thought Such was bad. But what you just wrote about me is evil.
I'm glad I never became like you. I'm glad I had the intelligence and ethics to see the cult for what it was, way before you wised up. Decades in fact. What exactly have you been inhaling?
Unfortunately, I don't get to choose the lives I help save, while working as a nurse at a hospital. You know the one, the one where I picked up the bug I'm afficted with. But where I work, I encounter the likes of you. Shallow and spoiled.

How dare you use me like that. How dare you pretend to know the first thing about me. Want to come see the house I live in? I don't have a kitchenette. But you probably do, since that is what comes to your mind.

No, I am not making you ill, you came here like that. Well people don't have therapists, now do they? Too bad your illness can't be cured by a prescripition drug. It's mental.

Fuck You!

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 21:10:31 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Apologizing
Message:

Tonette,

I'm sorry. I was too derisive and over the edge. I apologize. If possible, I wish for JHB to edit my post, as I should have done before I posted it, and delete all reference to you and Cynthia.

I liked your post below to Harry (see link) and ask for your and all other posters' foregiveness.

Sincerely,
OTS, spatula-ing egg off my face
[ Tonette's post ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:32:53 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: I love a person who can ...
Message:

apologize. OTS, you're great. Any friend of Richard's is a friend of mine. Of course, I love Tonette, too.

By the way, if you're on the same machine that you wrote the post from, I believe you can open your message, scroll down to the bottom, click on (edit this message) and edit it. Then you click on Save. If it doesn't act like it responded and you get a black screen, usually if you reload F7 you'll see your message changed. I'm not sure it will do it after this much time has elapsed but it may be worth a try.

Your rip on Tonette was B-A-D, but the rest of your post was G-O-O-D and should be preserved for posterity. Just my 2 cents.

Also, JHB is EPO Webmaster. Gerry is the owner of F7. But try and see if you can't edit your own post. Even when I close my browser down I can usually go back and edit a post.

It's great for when I say to myself, 'Geez, why the &#@& did you say that!'

Bests,

--f

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:43:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Oops! OTS. Hell hath no fury....
Message:

...like a woman scorned and I for one love feisty women which is why this forum is so addicting. I live in a city where tough women (like the Lesbian Avengers) are well regarded. The first chapter of Women Against Ladies was started here 20 years ago. ''Ladies'' are not supposed to get angry but women sure do.

Sorry OTS, that you caught some flak but I'm sure you'll be big enough to learn from it.

PatC, who loves movies where the women get to kick male chauvinist pig butt. :C)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:42:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here's the full quote...
Message:

Hi Pat,

I thought I'd add my 2 cents--the full quote is by English playwright William Congreve (1670-1729), the play ''The Mourning Bride''

Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned.

Good Morning!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:09:31 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Here's the full quote...
Message:

Well thanks, Cynthia. I always thought it was Shakespeare but then I always think everything was Shakespeare. ;)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 04:50:00 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Sorry, no cigar
Message:

I don't accept your apology. Not now anyway. Your post was most lucid in describing what you think of me. Why do you think after what you wrote that I would want to endear myself to you?

And I hope Gerry doesn't let you off the hook by editing your thread above. Someday, after you emerge a little bit more from the fog you've been in, you may want to refer back to it so you can mark your progress in rejoining the human race.

I could not care less what you think of my reply to Harry.

Oh, and should you ever stop by my house and find my kitchen lacking, I can show you the kitchen at the other house I own. The house at the beach. I can provide you a filtration mask to wear, so you don't have to inhale any laundry soap particles that might be floating in the air. I do wash clothes, I don't find that task beneath me.

No, I don't forgive you.

Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:35:07 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: You go WOMAN!
Message:

Tonette,

I was going to respond to OTS on your behalf, but nobody does it better than you. He only mentioned me once, but after I re-read it, your name is mentioned throughout. Nope, no revisions...

Last night I had a little insomnia and awoke about 2 unable to get back to sleep. I read your post to OTS and thought, yes, that's my kind of woman--Tonette.

We all learn here, don't we? About hitting that little 'post' button. Once hit, once posted, it's SAID.

And I certainly don't think that OTS's post was a ''BEST OF'' because it was full of insults, plus, IMO, convoluted and a rant.

I hope the steam coming out of your ears is helping you to press those fresh shirts, are there laundry soap bubbles flying around your head? |D

Much Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:21:16 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Tonette, Cynthia, OTS
Message:

Mistakes were made, feelings were hurt, people were insulted. Too bad but I would not want to see anyone of you to drop out because toes were stepped on.

OTS, I tought you took the protests to the personal attack part of your post to heart and attempted to apologize. Too bad it is being rejected by Tonette and Cynthia. The rest of your post was spot on and, as usual, a valuable contribution. Not sure what else you could say to heal this situation, but I hope you keep posting.

Tonette and Cynthia, what would it take for you to be satisfied that OTS is being sincere? As others have said, his comments were uncalled for but I thought his apology post was sincere. He did attack you but has extended the olive branch. Please don't let this feud get worse.

Richard, amateur mediator

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:00:47 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I hope OTS posts here all that he wants
Message:

I will not fued with him. He is welcome, OTS is a 'he' I assume, on this forum, like all of us.

Just because someone offers an apology, with their sincerity, doesn't necessarily mean you have to accept it.

Sorry Richard, mistakes happen, but I happen to know what OTS really thinks of me.

I will not flame OTS but it will be a cold day in hell before I forgive him. I appreciate what you are trying to do but I do have a right to defend myself.

Tonette, who just finished cleaning a toilet.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 18:40:16 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings?
Message:

Tonette,

I'd gladly come and inhale laundry soap with you anytime I'm in your neck of the woods! :)

Much LOVE,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I'm a Tonette fan ;) [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:36:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I'm a Tonette fan, too...:) [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:20:47 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Just meditate, brother
Message:

Just kidding, OTS. What I meant to say was, you're in your mind, brother. And that's a good thing.

Every post you've made here has been full of fire. And every one of your posts has made quite an impact. From scanning down the replies, I see this one is no exception. Maybe not the response you wanted but it certainly stirred up the conversation.

A word about the forum from a relative old-timer. I've only been posting for a bit over a year but have noticed a couple of phases folks often go through. One of the first phases is a sense of amazement and appreciation (not that kind of appreciation) for the info gathered on EPO and the ongoing forum conversation. Many posters eventually get really into the forum and, because it does mean so much to them, want to change it for he better. For myself, I wanted to help reorganize EPO to make it easier to access for all new comers. And I've always lobbied for giving newcomers a wide berth because I appreciated the support I received as a sweaty-palmed newbie.

May I be so bold as to suggest that where you're coming from with the above post is a desire to protect the forum? I don't think you want to attack anyone personally but just want to make sure the forum is user friendly.

You know I dig your presence here and always get a kick out of your thoughts. Peace with passion, brother.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:17:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Tonette was completely right
Message:

OTS,

I, too, have enjoyed your posts and all that and would be sorry to see you just drop out when you really just got here but talk about nasty! I re-read Tonette's post and can't see what you're so put out by. Here it is again with my comments interspersed:

Exactly how many funerals has Maharaji attended of his devotees who have died. Specifcally, his ashram members, who were extraordinarily instrumental in building his wealth. Huh? Gee, if someone sent me even 10% of their income because I was such an awesome person, don't you think that if I gave a rat's ass about them, I would at least show up for their funeral? In my private jet for pete's sake? Talk about easy but more than that, the right thing to do.

True? Damn right it's true. I guess Harry knows of some exceptions but the general rule's undeniable. Every premie that I ever knew who died, in the ashram or out, did so without M's physical attention or support. Back in my time, we actually thought M was far too exalted in holy stature not to mention busy Creating, Sustaining and Destroying the entire universe to exchange pleasantries with devotees enduring something as trivial as maya sand traps like sickness or even death. Hell, he didn't do bar mitzvahs either, what's the problem? Tonette's impression, like mine, wasn't hastily arrived at. If there's a secret, more compassionate side to M, neither she nor I need ever apologize for not knowing it. Besides, given all the many opportunites for such basic human generosity he's passed by over time, M's motives in all respects are deservedly suspect.

And Maharaji, you SOB, how you used Pia even in her death! For a little history this was a long term devotee who died recently(this past year) She, Pia, launched a very twisted and hateful site to discredit EPO and what was happening on the web. This site was called 'it ain't so.' It was the start of and in very many ways mirrored the CAC attacks. A precursor to what was to come. Pia was dying at the time, God bless her soul. She died. But Maharaji in his never ever ability to use people, mentioned her in one of his 'discourses.' Obtusely. He never gave her a real recognition, nor a congradulatory acknowledgement on all her work with her site in countering the ex presence. He used her even in death. What a bastard!

Seems harsh but, when you think about it, entirely true. Pia's site was twisted and hateful. Sure, it might not have had the same blatantly ugly tone as CAC or even Glasser's site, but the substance was just as bad. Pia and friends were haughtily dismissive of all of these wonderful people who had literally dedicated the better parts of their lives to a man they now sought answers and accountability from. If, by then, you too had spent the kind of time and effort other exes had put out in the name of truth you might also have reacted that way. But you weren't around then so it wasn't your fight. I'll tell you one thing, though: no one who was around then accepted Pia's site on the superficially 'pleasant' terms it was offered. Perhaps you had to be there.

As for using Pia, well what do you call it when a coward like M lets his cult members wrap themselves up in the impossible task of defending him with their final days because 1) it's got great schmaltz appeal and 2) he's too cynical and frightened to try to do it himself? He used Pia for effect. She might not have known it but we do. Tonette's right. And she's also right in observing that M can't ever give actual credit to people, even when it's only to applaud them for applauding him, even posthumously.

And I would bet $100 that Maharaji, in his careful, loving recognition of this devotee of many, many years did not so much as send a note, or flowers, much less attend her funeral.

Okay, maybe she was right about this, maybe she was wrong. As I said, she knows the guy well enough, gave enough of herself to him over time to have earned the right to speculate. And if he's off the hook in this case, he certainly isn't in most.

Yet he continued to use Pia, even after her death.
That is what you are up against, 210.

But it is all so beautiful. Yeah_right.

My two shakes.

Warmly, Tonette

It might not have been your expression but it wasn't that bad. I don't know what your story is but if the forum or EPO had anything to do with helping you exit, you have people like Tonette to thank not look down your nose at.

By the way, what is your story or is that prying?

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:16:39 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But you're wrong, Jim
Message:

You said: ''He was too busy Creating, Sustaining and Destroying.''

It should actually read: ''Generating, Operating and Destroying.'

Go it? G-O-D. :C)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:57:32 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Yo OTS
Message:

Sending you my love. Read your posts. Hope you're doing well. Don't have time to get into the discussion.

I'm who you used to know as Katie Baier. You're welcome to e-mail me at darlingwave@aol.com (don't know if you read my invitation in a previous thread). Or not. Anyway, much love to you and all support you need in the process you're in.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:36:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Please Don't Be Afraid of Me...
Message:

Dear OTS,

The last thing I ever want to do here is to frighten people, but I admittedly do that because I am a passionate person. I'm not dispassionate, but I do have a fierce bark. OTS, (does that mean Off The Scale)? I am a queer duck. I know it and I admit it. Sometimes I'm as wonderful and kind as kind can be, and other times I am as angry as rage can be. That's the way I'm made up. I can't really apologize for that because I work on my own personal behavior with real 3D people and people here on the forum every day. Honestly, I'm sorry if I made you feel afraid.

I can't go through your post line by line right now, because it's my night to cook dinner and my priorities are straight when it comes to real living. I love my life. So I don't want to brush off your concerns about me, Tonette or any other people here you perceive to be threatening or off the wall. Besides, they are free to answer for themselves.

All I want to convey to you at this moment--THIS MOMENT--is that I have had a peculiar life aside from the cult and I have experiences and insights that many people don't have because of it. That doesn't make me special it simply allows me to be the unique person I am. Believe me, I would rather be normal, whatever that is.

I suspect you are experiencing a period of exiting which could be called ''floating.'' This is a state which many people who exit cults experience right after realizing the horrific thing that has happened and been done to them. It's a terrible feeling, I know, but you will get through it. Try to think about exactly with whom you are angry. When I boil it all down, it usually ends up at maharaji's feet.

The forum is not for those without strong stomachs. To survive the cult it takes great courage and you've expresed yourself well. It's not a chat room, either, but we can disagree on that. Can you give me another chance?

Please do not leave the forum because certain folks here, me, Tonette or anyone else has offended you. Believe me. This isn't a cult. All you have to do is read the posts after 911. If you think I am scary now, well, nevermind...I'd like to leave those posts in the circular file.

My point is this: take care of YOU. Leaving m is so difficult and scary and heartbreaking. Don't leave because of me, please.

Your responsibility right now is to nurture yourself through this period of intense fluctuation of emotions. Love yourself. Take comfort and care of yourself and ask those in your real world to help you do that if that's possible.

Now, I must go and make supper--this is my husband's time with me. Please try to calm down, and understand that you've been through so much shit and you made it very far.

If you feel overwhelmed, you are welcome to email me at sylviecyn@yahoo.com. Surprised? I'm not going to bark down your throat. That's a promise.

Take some deep breaths try to calm down and I wish you the best.

It's a difficult time. But please don't go, unless you must.

I send you my best thoughts
and be well,
Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:36:43 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The Forum is Ephemeral.
Message:

Hi Cynthia,

One of the things I've noticed about the forum is it's incredibly ephemeral. Not only are the Earth shattering revelations and confrontations forgotten by the time you wake up again, if you don't post for a couple of weeks, nobody even remembers who you are.

It's like the newspapers. Who can remember what they read last week?

It's wonderful. All the posts drop off the bottom and disappear.

And usually, those folk who say, 'That's it. I've had enough. I'm leaving for good.' are usually back within four days.

I love it.

Anth, going going gone. And never ever coming back.

dum dee dee dee dar.

Hi I'm back. Did I miss anything?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 21:06:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Have we met? You look familiar ;)
Message:

Funny and true. Hope the next forum allows us to track and respond to posts for months. This 2 to 3 day run is not fair for the diversity of posters and lurkers we have here.

deb who has an email for you

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:17:59 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: What an honest, compassionate response (nt)
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:08:13 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Harry's Response to Tonette
Message:

Hi OTS

You'll never get a situation where you agree with all posters, nor will you be able to control the 'tone' of the forum. Nor will anyone else. As a public discussion board, it's fluid not static.

All you can do is write however you see fit. Whether it be with anger, sadness, joy, pain, pleasure...whatever.Personally speaking my ultimate judgement of a post/ poster (as far as I can make that judgement, that is) is whether or not the post is HONEST or whether it's just BULLSHIT.From M , especially these revisionist days,all I discern is a FUNDAMENTAL LIE .....no matter how 'nicely' he tells it. A post doesn't have to be sweet in order to be honest and sometimes the sweetest posts can be BULLSHIT.That's my fundamental starting point. I think M and his organisation(s)are fundamentally dishonest. Yes fundamentally. No matter how sweet he can sometimes appear to be, especially on a stage in public.

As you mention Tonette and Cynthia.....you say they are turning people off. Maybe, maybe not. You could have just as easily said they are turning people ON.Horses for courses. There could be countless lurkers who are feeling incredibly angry and cynicaljust at the moment and appreciate the 'no holds barred approach'. There's enough variety to keep evryone happy, I reckon.You don't like the way they express themselves and that's your perogative.As far as I'm concerned they've spent YEARS devoted to Prem Pal Singh Rawat....now that they are EX followers, then on an EX forum it's up to them how they communicate their experiences vis-a-vis Maharaji.

Maharji doesn't ALLOW real free speech in his world. Anything other than a sychophantic 'Thank you' get's short shrift from him.

As regards your PERMANENTLY leaving because of the tone of some posts. Why? You've written some good posts.You have a story to tell and years of experience to draw on , as we all have.Come and go as you please, I'd say.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:16:42 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Aren't you up kinda late? (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:00 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 12-20pm...late? Not really. [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:56 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: AM ...duhh [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:41:18 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Go to bed Dermot.
Message:

It's well past your bedtime. You'll only be grouchy in the morning.

Anth who functions best when he's asleep.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:51:52 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Across the pond folks..OT
Message:

You stay up later than us lightweights in the US. I keep much later hours over there. It must be your bad influence.

Love and see you soon, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not as late as me
Message:

Time for bed:-)

John the 2 hours ahead of Dermot (2.22 am)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:51:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Hey OTS, WHOA
Message:

Well said, OTS, and I agree re Maharaji having not a philanthropic bone in his rotund body, and I also agree that his blatant uncarring about his followers, except if they are his personal friends, have money, or he needs them for some reason, is the most damning thing about him. He never gave a crap about any of us, and his actions over the years (ashrams, finances, abuse, unresponsive to sincere questions, etc.) proves that.

But I'm not sure why you are so upset at Tonette (and also Cynthia). We are all just people with lots of different points of view and ways of expressing them, not all of which are to my liking either. To the extent Harry corrected anything Tonette said, that's exactly what this Forum is supposed to be about, and Harry has every right to say what he did.

I also find that premies, and some recent exes are kind of freaked out by the freedom here, to say whatever people feel they need to say. That is something that exists nowhere in the Maharaji cult and is greatly feared in that cult and that's why all the cult websites forbid open discussion and even something like ELK heavily censors out any dissenting view. That doesn't happen here, and can be messy, but thank God for that!

I do think Pia's website was hateful, but I'm sorry she had cancer. I'm also sorry she was so deluded to think she was helping Maharaji, herself or humanity by calling ex-premies liars, or, worse yet, saying the ex-premies, when they were premies, caused all the problems. Lies.

Then, when I wrote a number of dissenting views to her site, extremely respectful by the way, they were ignored. Not only did she or whoever managed that site not print them, they weren't even acknowledged, all the while printing crap from people like Josie Winter, twisting the truth about published works by cult-researchers, and then not even acknolwedging my correction.

Either someone has respect for the truth or they don't. If you have respect for the truth you are open to comments that augment or provide views on that truth, even if you disagree with them. But see, Pia wasn't interested in the truth, she was interested in trying to spin the story and blame the messengers of Maharaji's past and behind-the-scenes present. That isn't the truth, that's propaganda. When the propaganda includes blanketly calling people liars, them's fighting words and Tonette and the rest of us have a right to be upset.

She claimed that she was actually going to respond to the things that had been raised by ex-premies, to provide evidence as to why they weren't true, but she never did. All she did was attack, softened by testimonials a la ELK.

The really sad part is that I think she sincerely believed she loved Maharaji and did it from that place. I don't know how well she knew him personally, but it's one thing to personally love somebody, and something else to do unethical things to try to "help" Maharaji, or worse yet, "prove" her love for Maharaji. That seems to be where Pia was coming from.

Plus, I am quite certain Maharaji can be extremely charming and nice in person. I have no personal experience of that, but I'm willing to accept it. But my question is: so what? That is simply not an excuse for the other reprehensible things he's done to damage peoples' lives. That he's nice to children, animals and his friends, is meaningless. On EPO, we are talking about his actions as "Master" and how he portrayed himself as such, not whether he is nice to Harry, or David Andersen, (or Erika one time in 1982), or Derek Harper, Pia, rich premies, or to Daya.

BTW, I really like what Tonette has to say although I don't agree entirely with almost anyone who posts here. I also admire her spunk, and I admire Cynthia's energy too.

I hope you will reconsider leaving the Forum, but you can always come back. All of us have taken vacations from this place. It is intense to look at all this stuff.

All the best,

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:31:02 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: careful shutting people up, OTS
Message:

especially women. It replicates the quieting of criticism so prevalent with pwks. Many women are afraid to express how they feel because they will receive exactly the kind of harsh criticism you direct to Tonette and Cynthia. Just to let you know, that criticism scared me much more than anything Cynthia has ever said.

While I agree that your response makes for compelling reading, it too is filled with anger. I think we all have reason for being angry at being misled by m. Let's direct it where it belongs,and not towards each other.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 18:02:42 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Very well said
Message:

I find it a little suspicious that none of the men at this forum made that list, but otherwise an honest post.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:52:52 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: *** Best of Forum - Great Post, OTS ***
Message:

personalising your negative views towards Tonette and Cynthia excludes your post from the Best of section on EPO. Otherwise, superb rebuttal of Harry's sugar-coated view of Maharaji's character.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:12 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: No - bad precedent, John..
Message:

Imagine if someone posted a somewhat personalised attack on you, but because of that post's other content, not the ad hominem stuff, the whole thing was enshrined forever on the *BEST OF* page...

Since there is no right of reply on 'Best of Forum', to have any personalised attacks on exes there - out of the original context - would be pretty lousy and unfair to the named individuals, whether or not there were grounds for them.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Of course you're right, Nige
Message:

I read his opinion of Tonette and Cynthia then got absorbed in the quality of the rest of the post. If he'd have kept names out, criticising the tone of posts here is fine by me, then it would be OK, but you're right, the Best of bit is about to be removed.

John with an eraser in his hand

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