Jim Sander -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:02 (GMT)

__ Arthur Sawyers -:- How Exciting. Clarity -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 18:18:15 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- How Exciting. Clarity -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:24:57 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:00:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mark -:- Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:46:33 (GMT)

__ Henry -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:26:36 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:23:21 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Very good analysis -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:35:56 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:40:53 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- This sounds s-o-o-o familiar -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:34:08 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:11:53 (GMT)

__ __ Louella Parsnip -:- The many faces of denial, part ONE.... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:32:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Thanks Mr/Mrs Parsnip....nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:56:28 (GMT)

__ Mark Appleman -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:39:58 (GMT)

__ David M -:- Great Post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:19:10 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- The many faces of denial, part two.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:01:27 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- How the premies saw Jim's letter -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:07:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Cool!-----------------------nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:22:46 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Thanks Jim S, another great post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:47:23 (GMT)

__ Tim G -:- Another BEST OF -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:42:21 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:02 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

A number of people expressed interest in my letters to EV and their response, or non-response.
Also, what were the reactions of people that I knew, in regard to my letters....how did they effect people around me...

First of all, I wrote the letters simply because I wish that someone had written me those letters a number of years ago.
Actually, I wish I had known more about many of the 'inner workings' a long, long time ago, as I would have seriously re-assessed my position and feelings about maharaji.
Also,I especially wish someone had brought this stuff out before I started to put on video programs at my house.

The reactions were varied, but one common theme has emerged: no one has really sat down with me and asked me to explain any more of the details, or has wanted to know anything further about all of this stuff.

A few close friends told me the letters were 'disturbing', and wanted to sit down with me for a long, long 'heart to heart' talk about 'everything'.
None of them ever ventured forward for the 'long, long talk.'

A few people have given me long, hard stares in town.
Some of them have tried to hide the stare behind a smile, but it's kind of like that thing we used to say when we were kids:
If you're happy, I guess you forgot to tell your face. (something like that)
In other words, behind that smile, is one pissed off premie.

I was told that the letters might create confusion in the community, but fortunately the resident instructor was there to 'de-confuse' anyone who might have the need.
A number of the 'quieter' types, gave me surprising calls in which they expressed to me that they had heard a few of the stories before, and now they believed that they were probably true.
They indicated they were in a 'holding pattern', as to their involvement, awaiting further word from the establishment.(good luck on that one...)

A number of people contacted me because they are 'lurkers' on EPO, but don't post.
Nice connections from the past.
Interesting to see the power of the internet in action.

One local friend, after yelling at me for about 15 minutes,finally told me: 'Because of you, I have to live with the fact that it could all be true!'

He said that if this stuff was true,maharaji's work was over...finished in the US.
And that he would leave him.

I wondered why, if it was all that important, he didn't find out the facts, and make that decision.
He replied that Donner/Dettmers etc. were liars, and they were probably upset that maharaji had fired them for some reason.
And therefore, no need to go further down that road.

It's here that I began to understand part of the current strategy that is taking hold.
You don't ask what the truth is.
You ask 'who do you believe?'
'Maharaji, the perfect master, or these guys?'

The question is not 'What is the truth?'.
It's framed as 'Who are you gonna believe?'
'Your master, or some pissed off premie with an ax to grind that wants to bring him down?'

It was also expressed by many that there is no way any of the more scandalous stuff could be verified, so they were backing the PM,not the ex-premie version.

Many people said that if it is true, they will leave.
However, they seemed to have little or no interest in answering any of these questions, and finding out if it is true or not.

When I asked the question 'How can maharaji say he never presented himself as a messianic figure?', when he so clearly did for over a decade, many people said that they never heard him say that he was the lord.(?)
I asked one friend, who I sang arti with every morning and night for 3 years about this.
She said that she never heard maharaji refer to himself as 'Lord'.
When I reminded her about the arti line 'Our Lord is the superior power in person', she said 'Oh...well,that's interesting, but why get into the past?...'

Other premies around town have gone out of their way to give me big,big smiles...
I think they're trying to let me know that they are very, very happy, and still like me...but hey, let's not get too close, OK?.

(That one reminds me of some relationships that I have seen.
After the breakup, each party goes out of their way to let the other party know how extremely happy they are, and they are doing just fine without the former partner, thank you..)

It's quite obvious that a number of practitioners still are quite attached in one way or another to the lotus feet, and do not want to hear anything that rocks that boat.

Another strategy, or form of denial that I have seen is the 'mindless compassion reaction'.
A number of premies expressed to me that they were sad that I was in turmoil over this.
Now they didn't want to discuss WHY I might be in turmoil, just that they were sad that I was sad.
Kind of like if my dog got run over by a car. We want you to know that we are sad because you are sad...but hey, I got to run, you know, kids are calling, grocery shopping ...bye.
No need to get into that WHY thing, but we want you to know that we are indeed compassionate.

That was sort of the tack that Ira took with me during our 2 hour phone conversation.
He started by saying that he knew I was in pain.
He could feel it from the letter, and he felt bad abut it.

('I'm sorry to hear about your pain,but let's not talk about it too much, because I may start feeling something uncomfortable myself,and we don't want that, do we?...')

My feeling is that I like the compassion, if it's real.
It's the denial that bugs me.

The third denial strategy I found was one expressed by another friend.
She said that 'I should have been a lawyer'.
When I asked what that meant, she wouldn't answer.
It was her way of keeping an arms length from the issue.(Once again, we don't want to get too close, wouldn't be prudent...)
Finally, I pried it out of her.
I should have been a lawyer,she said, because I like to fight, and make a mountain out a molehill.

Once again,no credence given to the facts, just that this guy likes to fight.(not really, and she knew it)
We don't discuss anything, and we'll just pin it all on the fact that you're an asshole.
There's really no problem, except the one that you are making up.

So, in summary, I've seen a few strategies...

1)Don't go for the truth.
Frame it as 'Who do you believe?Who's been there for you?
Maharaji or------?(fill in the blank)

2)Phony compassion.
I understand, but please don't talk to me.
I might have to think and experience some uncomfortable, confronting feelings myself.

3)You should be a lawyer.
In other words, everything is just fine, until you start creating problems.
You're not looking for truth or honesty, just creating problems, because you are not greatful.
I'm a greatful premie,and everything's working just fine, thank you.
You're ungreatful, and that's your problem.

4)This stuff is just 'food for the mind'.
This is one of those 'golden oldies' that gets pulled out of the closet once in awhile, especially amongst old timers.

I'm sure there are more forms of denial: these are a few that come to mind.

I do believe 'The emperors clothes' was written for a reason.

But until you're ready to take a long, honest look at the emperor and yourself,those clothes he's wearing look just fine, thank you.

Sincerely,
Jim Sander

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 18:18:15 (GMT)
From: Arthur Sawyers
Email: arthursawyers@hotmail.com
To: Jim Sander
Subject: How Exciting. Clarity
Message:

So mr. Clear Persons. Congratulations on y0ur next step toward your creation for YOu. I am sure you are enjoying the larger freedom that will never get smaller, because it all belongs to you.

Fully Responsible, Fully Free and Sovereign.

My friend I am sure our paths will cross anew in the future, as our creations are frequency bound.

I am on the farm in va. And totally enjoying being with me.

YOu Friend and fellow Stewart. Arthur

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:24:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: How Exciting. Clarity
Message:

I don't know if this 'translation' is what will satisfy you, but for me it helps:

So mr. Clear 'Jerkoff' Sex fights. Congratulations on y0ur next step toward your creation for YOu. I am sure you are fingering the fingering larger freedom that will never get smaller, because it all cuntlapps to you.
Fully 'Mistress Anal' Responsible, Fully 'Buzzwordbaby' Free and Sovereign.

My friend I am sure our sex fights will sucks anew in the entering future, as our squirts are frequency bound.

I am on the shafting farm in va. And totally smacking being with me.

YOu Friend and fellow Stewart. Arthur

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:00:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Arthur Sawyers
Subject: Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt)
Message:

hhhhhh

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:46:33 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Clarity? Can someone translate this guy? (nt)
Message:

Now that WAS funny.And Art will laugh like a braying donkey at that.

But let me paraphrase this one for you into Jimspeak. It is in perfectly lucid Arthurspeak. I know cause Art's been a closer than close friend for 20+ years. And this was his first post.

Congratulations on seeing things as they are and clearly. And accepting a larger view of reality. Where you are responsible
for your own life, not the one who your townspeople strangely defend. I applaud you and feel we are on the same frequency. Like frequencies attract one another. Let's hang out if you like. I'm up in Virginia.

Maybe Quint can run it through the pornolizer for you if it still does not resonate to your frequency. Canadian English and American all spoken here . . .

Mark Appleman ( who chooses not to Capitalize indiscriminately )

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:26:36 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

Jim, your analysis seems right on to me.

I think Denial is intrinsic to the whole belief system of MJ-ism. At least when I was involved ('73-'84), meditation was presented as the way to block out all unpleasant thoughts, emotions, and perceptions. Meditation was the tool to support denial. Denial was the priority because by denying what I didn't want to experience (or what MJ recommended that I not experience), then I could experience Bliss or Truth. Definately Denial was promoted, rather than the alternative (to accept and work through the uncomfortable stuff).

I also think the Denial stuff ties back emotionally to early childhood when I decided I was going to be a good boy and not be a bad boy. Emotions and thoughts became polarized to win the approval of omnipotent parents. I think that's a necessary childhood stage. But later on people acquire other tools and strategies (such as reasoning) to cope with life.

So maybe MJ stepped into that subconscious parent role and by following his directions and denying everything I didn't want to deal with, I could feel good about myself, and feel worthy of parental love. A strange circuit to escape my insecurity.

Ergo, Denial ain't a river in Egypt -- it's the creek on Rawat's estate.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:23:21 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

great post jim.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:35:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Very good analysis
Message:

M's philosophy is the opposite of enjoying life. Life is 'the full catastrophe,' as Zorba the Greek said, and as Jon Kabat-Zinn reminded me in his book.

It is about the whole spectrum of experience. M's idea of enjoying life is blocking out what we don't like and holding back the tide. The opposite of peace and acceptance. It's more like, 'I sit on my cushion in peace and bliss while I might faintly hear that lunatic through the locked door in the back room. Ah, peace. Ah, bliss.' Ah, hossturds.

It's morally commendable to try to be a good person, and to be kind and compassion. It is sheer folly to deny the other influences passing through our field of perception at any given moment.
love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:40:53 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

Thanks, Jim - great post (as always!). I am amazed by the reaction of the people in your community.

When I stopped following M, I did it very quietly - but people figured it out. The only premie that I stayed friends with was a woman who I'd known for a while before I got knowledge - we somehow managed to keep our relationship intact by not talking about Maharaji at all. (We are still friends, and she's been an ex-premie for a while. I have also reconnected with some old friends on EPO) So I really didn't get to experience the denial - and of course, I didn't know any of the behind-the-scenes stuff back then - just that I was unhappy. You were very courageous to put it all out front as you did.

Take care, and thanks again,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:34:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: This sounds s-o-o-o familiar
Message:

Jim:

I went through some of this in dribs and drabs over the years, but the most dramatic reaction I got was after going to a program in about 1992. I hadn't been to a program since the 80s, and hadn't seen many of the premies since then, although of course I had several close friends that were (at the time) premies. (A few still are.)

During the program, the whole delivery was so strange to me. I'd been around too many Tibetan Buddhist lamas, and M seemed like a carney in comparison. Cheezy 'worship the Master' videos, premie music, and M himself, with his corny breathy then screechy and yelly delivery. I could not WAIT for him to SHUTTUP so we could leave.

People could tell we (my husband and I) were less than enamored, although we tried to keep quiet about it for the most part. But when one old friend turned to me and said longingly, 'I didn't want it to end. It wasn't enough.' 'I said, I couldn't wait for him to stop. I had enough.' My dharma group business card really shocked a lot of them though. I could see it in their immediate reactions, although they were politely veiled. A combination of: traitor, ungrateful one, lost soul, oh-you-poor-thing, could-what-I'm-doing-really-be-full-of-sh*t, etc.

I found out who my real premie friends were, because they stayed in touch with me and accepted or at least tolerated our views. To the rest, we've probably become pariahs or we-won't-even-think-about-it, or anything in between. The old friend did not return my e-mails.

THEN, this year when, after 2 years of gradually exiting and turmoil I essentially left the Tibetan Buddhist sanga where I'd once been the coordinator, I got similar reactions, especially the 'mindless compassion' you speak of. It didn't help that my father had just died. They threw it all on that. Oh, you're sad. Oh, you're 'suffering.' I felt great. Free of dogma. Free of 'having' to meditate or I was wasting my life. I'm glad to say several of them are still my friends, and we can even talk about why I feel the way I do.

But oh, you did a great description of the many faces of exiting a cult. Yikes!

love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:11:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

Jim,

I confused you with or regular Jim[Heller].
Where would your part one of this be on the forum. I f kinda be able to post the link please. I would also like to use your post on it-Is-so site, would you mind. Am working on the sections What we Want? and I may include it in.

regards

Salam

it-IS-so

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:32:06 (GMT)
From: Louella Parsnip
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The many faces of denial, part ONE....
Message:

Here Salam, I think this is part one of Jim Sander's post, the original just went into the inactive index. Here is a copy:

Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 20:17:32
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Apples. oranges and the many faces of denial...

Message:
A number of people have asked me to mention how my letters to the Chapel Hill, NC community were received, and what were some of the reactions to them.
Also, my 2 hour phone converstaion with Ira Woods, once the letter was received by EV.
Ira started out by telling me that my letter was taken seriously, and forwarded from EV to the office of maharaji.
I'm not sure what that meant, but I did ask him if maharaji would read it, or if I could talk to maharaji personally.
He couldn't assure me of either, which was understandable.

The conversation with Ira was interesting; unremarkable in some ways, but quite telling in others.
What wasn't said was just as informative to me as what was said.

I like Ira;I always felt that he was very intent on his spiritual practice, and not so interested in DLM politics and social climbing as some other big shots I met along the way.
I do believe he was at times a bit fanatical in the old days, but so were a lot of people.

Our conversation was very nice and heart felt for about the first hour...reminiscing about the old NY 83 St. ashram,divine sales, the electric circus, early 1970's programs etc.
That was nice.

But I soon became aware of the 'apples and oranges' syndrome as we went deeper into our talk.
What I believe is that maharaji's obvious flaws,hypocrisies and manipulations are dealt with in the same way we deal with these same problems with politiicans.

If you like the guy, you overlook everything.
If you don't like the guy, you notice everything.
Look at Reagan....obviously a deeply flawed man who lied to us, but you would never know that from the conservatives version of history.
Or Clinton...you either wanted to lynch him if you were a conservative, or you could calmly overlook his pecadillos if you were a liberal.

What I see premies doing is obviously overlooking maharaji's blatant lies and deceptions.
When I mentioned these things to Ira, he just couldn't/didn't/wouldn't get it.
It really was apples and oranges..you couldn't compare the two.
He simply did not see anything to be upset about...he told me that he had heard all the wierd stories before, and it didn't bother his practice.
Knowledge is perfect, even though some times his mind wants to try and pick it apart.
All the other stuff is clutter along the path...doubts to be overlooked.
Don't get into all the wierd rumors and such, and you're ok.
It simply works, and what's the problem?

I finally gave up after about 2 hours, realizing that the whole issue of trust, honesty, ethics etc. was not going to be broached with Ira.
He did agree that these allegations and revelations are affecting new people, and they have been reading the site.
EPO is hurting maharaji's work, to be sure.
But beyond that, not much room for open dialogue.
As one friend put it, Ira has an IRA, from maharaji, and he's not going to bite the hand that feeds him, or go against any party line.

It struck me as ironic, that the very people who started out as rebellious seekers of truth, wary of religion and dogma, are now desparately clinging onto the maharaji religion and dogma.
They have become the religious establishment that they so wisely and warily avoided as young seekers, and are quite threatened by any type of critical thinking, reasoning or heart felt feeling that upsets that apple cart.

Rather than search for the truth, they seek the safety of the religion and personality cult around maharaji.
Clinging to the illusion of truth, rather than truth.

I have noticed the same thing with premies I know from different places.
If they're still doing it, they kind of like the religion,the routine of it...something would be missing if they weren't doing it.
Yet no one seems to have any deep experience of anything, and certainly nothing that they can or are allowed to articulate.
It is dead beyond belief, but most premies are still reluctant to talk critically of it, or speak honestly about it.
There is to be no doubt or critical examination of the master.

This 'premie blind spot' can be comforting to some.
Anything that feels uncomfortable can be labelled a 'doubt'.
You simply overlook these 'doubts' and never, ever, 'doubt the master'.
It makes life easy, but only if you want to live with eyes closed.

The problem begins when this artifical reality that you have created meets the real world reality.
The vast majority of new people will simply not ignore all of these obvious lies and deceptions the way that the premies do.
They have no need to.
In fact, most of them will be hyper-sensitive to anything that smacks of cult.

Eventually the blind spot is what will derail this whole thing.

Maharaji needs this current 'shot in the arm' of devotion.
Recent events like the toe kissing and arti are no coincidence.
While it may bolster sagging spirits for a short time, eventually it will catch up, both with maharaji, and the premies.

Although Ira and the premies don't see any problems(because they simply cannot afford to see any problems), and blindly forge on ahead with their master's words spurring them on, they will eventually realize that what they are doing is quite immoral.

To not tell prospective new recruits about ALL of the maharaji story,is simply unethical, short sighted and foolish.
As the truth unfolds,numerous hearts will be broken, bonds of trust shattered,and premies will be looked at as either naive fools at best or cult recruiters at worst.

It's ironic that the group that challenged America with the slogan 'Who is guru maharaji?', is now about to find out a lot more about the man than they probably ever wanted to know.

Sincerely,
Jim Sander

PS:I will talk about reactions from other people in next post.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:56:28 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Louella Parsnip
Subject: Thanks Mr/Mrs Parsnip....nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:39:58 (GMT)
From: Mark Appleman
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

and Crossing the Nile, to freedom.

Jim, its all about giving Satsang, speaking your truth, all over again. From a detached place. And doing unto others as you would have done to you. Which you have done. In spades.

I had an exchange about 4 years ago with a brilliant man who I had put a very large Devotional project together with in the late 80's. It blew my mind. We had put poems together(that's right, I was an ELK poet before it was cool) in a leather bound book and presented it to maharaji for his birthday in Brussels back in 88 or 89. There was not a poem in that book that would be Kosher under current standards. These were 'Lord you are this Lord you are that' types of poems. from Marolyn, Maharaji's kids, bihari, rank and filers from 5 continents, instructors , gopis, this guy and myself. Hundreds of pages of poetry long. This guy said he felt he had been put on this Earth to write Maharaji's Maharbata.

So during our very sweet ongoing friendship now comes this conversation, ten years later ; circa 1999. He says something along the lines of ' Mark, I read your journey. Did you really believe all that stuff about him being the Lord ?'

I snapped back I guess I wasn't sophisticated enough to be bluffing it all those years like him. Or not taking it seriously. Like he and the one's still remaining in Knowledge Lite Village.( or the one's who mystically and conveniently evolved, like Erika A )

It reminded me of an experience I had during my bookbuying days. There was this Biology teacher in Tampa CC with piles and piles of new books in his office. He said he didn't believe in bookbuyers. I of course assumed that after hearing my clever spin on bookbuying and its actual ethicality, I would get those books and make some serious coin. Anyway, about 30 seconds into my pitch he said something I will never forget. He said 'DON'T TRY AND CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS. I'VE ALREADY MADE UP MY MIND!!!'. I congratulated him on his clarity, and moved on.

This is EXACTLY what I ran into with my friend, and you did with your friends and neighbors in Chapel Hill ( ex-arti partner et al)

The FACTS are terribly damning in this case. So the only defensive approach is to impeach the witnesses, play ostrich, or raise your voice (play the power/ fear card) and ignore everything. Anyone absorbs the truth of the MORAL SPIRITUAL & MATERIAL bankruptcy of Maharaji and his fraudulent ' Mission' is on their way out.

I still remain friends with this man, but I learned that day that people that remain MUST maintain that NOTHING IS, WAS, OR WILL EVER BE WRONG with Maharaji. And NEVER admit inconsistencies in their behavior either. Not head on at least. Because their leader doesn't either. And this is a pretty fragile thing - this lord / not lord / coverup / changes / personal problems thing. One leak directly digested - jagdeo, abortions & mistresses, X-rating, drinking, phony lineage, personal aberrations, abject and preposterous revisionism - and the house of cards fall down. And they FEAR THAT THEY WILL FALL WITH IT. AND GIVEN THE LIFE OR DEATH LEVEL THAT PEOPLE BOUGHT THIS WHOLE PROGRAM ORIGINALLY (even tho this all seems quite tame these days) leaving M IS the end of their life as they percieve it. This is why you I and other premies who 'popped' out of the system run into such weird shit from otherwise normal people.

And that 'spiritual' people, Lovers of God, invoulentarily find themselves 25 years later being forced to be politicians. To cover inconsistencies. Which frankly, none are too good at. And it can't feel good.

And I feel sorry for the dishonesty that is at work in that part of my friend's life. But bottom line, I brought it up. And that gave him a chance , ever so fleetingly, to look his and his master's BS right in the eyeballs.

& Which you did as well, by giving satsang & speaking your truth in your town. the ironies that you brought up a few days ago that those that remain are sort of 'Establishment' types is something that they - not you - are left to deal with.

You have left the land of bondage and crossed De Nile

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:19:10 (GMT)
From: David M
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Great Post
Message:

Jim...Another great post..These are the type posts that will Keep lurkers comming back for more... questioning there values..Bravo keep up the good work..Peace David

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:01:27 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: The many faces of denial, part two....
Message:

Hi Jim Sanders,

This is another impressive posting. Where did the premies see your letter? If they saw that one, hopefully they'll see this one...sooner or later they should see the light. The real light!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:07:49 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: How the premies saw Jim's letter
Message:

Deborah,

Jim sent his letter to everyone in his community when he exitied. After all he was community coordinator and had the mailing list.

This is why Jim is such a hero:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:22:46 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Cool!-----------------------nt
Message:

zzz

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:47:23 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Thanks Jim S, another great post
Message:

When I left I wasn't involved with premies, and those I knew I didn't contact mainly because I was close to emigrating, so it's really interesting to read about your experiences, and really sad that all your acquaintances are afraid to think.

Thanks again,

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:42:21 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Another BEST OF
Message:

Thamks Jim I have been saving and printing out your contributions as I feel they put the situation very clearly and this one on denial is funny and sad. I had quite a long confrontation with an old premie friend, an intelligent guy too, via E-mail and I sent him your first letter to EV. His only response was 'Oh so Maharaji smokes cigarrettes...Big Deal!'He completely ignored the central questions . That does seem to be the premie attitude. .Avoid questioning or doubting. Can you imagine how unhealthy that is in any arena of life.
Anyway thanks for your posts.
Love and peace and the whole shebang,
Tim

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