Jim -:- Warning, Pia: don't try to sort out confusion! -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 13:14:28 (GMT)

__ janet -:- confusion isn't caused by confusion, it comes -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:15:21 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- oh man, oh shit, oh ... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:09:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- He talks in koans, Chris, to boggle the brain. -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:41:00 (GMT)

__ janet -:- confusion doesnt come from confusion, it comes -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:10:41 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- The 'procedures' -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 17:15:29 (GMT)

__ __ Steve M -:- The 'procedures' -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:34:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- The 'procedures' are 1) watch video 2) send check -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:07:00 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- Nice post,Jerry.Common sense is uncommon... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:20:00 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Being A PWK These Days Is Not A Piece Of Cake -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 16:26:21 (GMT)

__ __ Carl -:- Does EPO (or any ex) have a complete library of -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 17:25:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- The status of the anti Maharaji sites -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:00:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Maybe that was wishful thinking . . . but it seems -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:09:58 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Electricity -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 13:47:39 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- Electricity, light, a torch, bioluminescence, etc -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:37:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- ***Best Of Forum*** nt -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:48:40 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 13:14:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Warning, Pia: don't try to sort out confusion!
Message:

[Just sent to Pia:

Pia,

I know you're too busy not answering my other messages to you to answer this one but I thought I'd send it anyway. Well, that's unconditional love for you.

Here's Maharaji's latest message from EV's newsletter and straight to your heart. Notice how, like I was saying before, he doesn't exactly go for this 'clearing things up' stuff. I'd say that one of you, cult leader or cult member, is a little out of synch:

Confusion is confusion. And confusion is there not because of confusion but because of lack of clarity. You want to get rid of confusion? Don't try to sort out confusion, because if you try to sort it out you're just going to get more confused. Garner, escort, bring in pure, sweet clarity. That is the only way you can untangle the web of confusion. Don't take a bucket and try to throw darkness out the window. That's not going to do you any good. You want to take away the darkness? Then bring on the light and the darkness will go away. There are simple procedures for these things. It's not that the procedures don't work. They always work. Believe me, they always work, it's just that we forget them. We forget that they work. Then, somebody comes along and reminds and we go, 'Ah. Okay.'

Capiche?

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:15:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: confusion isn't caused by confusion, it comes
Message:

from a lack of clarity'

yeah right--
same device New York Mayor David Dinkins tried to use, to weasel out of criminal charges of tax evasion, with this exquisite defense:

'I didn't committ a crime. I simply failed to comply with the Law'.

and Dan Quayle's explanation to Environmentalists:
'It isn't the pollution that is causing our problems--it's the impurities in our air and water.'

!Sacre Bleu! ow cood ah av bin zo ztoopeed? ov kairrss eet eez. ze ansair eez so ob vyuzz to mee naow!

-----------------------

hey you--yeah you-- the golden greaseball--
confusion comes from you trying to put one over on the listeners, and their brains recoiling and saying 'that isn't the way I see it! That isn't the way I know it to be true--that's WRONG!'

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:09:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: oh man, oh shit, oh ...
Message:

jeezus on a crutch ...

don't you get it? THAT's the whole selling-point of the man they call the 'master'.

Mr Rawat (or 'Maharaji' to those who profess to love him) has gotten this device down to a tee (hee-hee?)

I remember how it felt. I listened to the man spout non-sequitur after non-sequitur until I felt my 'brains recoiling and saying 'that isn't the way I see it! That isn't the way I know it to be true--that's WRONG!''

But THAT's precisely what works for him, Janet!

People go to hear him speak (whether on video/satellite or live) and sooner or later - guess what? - their brains are recoiling and going into overdrive. Why? Simply because of the non-sequiturs.

He manages to overide the brain's logic and hypnotise the recipient purely and simply BECAUSE what he says lack any coherence. The mind goes into a kind of shock at the absurdity of the illogic of his statements.

THAT's the high that premies get off on!

And it IS a tangible phenomenon (at least emotionally). Hence the tie of loyalty to him that those premies who have learnt to dissociate themselves from their minds still prefer to feel. It reinforces a feeling that, by its very presence, DENIES the power of logic.

But WHO sold them on the idea that logic/reasoning was not to be trusted in the first place? Whether it was Rawat or his father, or his mother's father's cousin's second-hamster-in-waiting ... the fact remains that THEY - the premies - have eventually to recognise the fact that what they bought into, they can also buy out of.

In their own time, or course.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:41:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: He talks in koans, Chris, to boggle the brain.
Message:

No wonder I feel sane since I stopped listening to his gobbledy-gook.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:10:41 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: confusion doesnt come from confusion, it comes
Message:

from a lack of clarity'

yeah right--
same device New York Mayor David Dinkins tried to use, to weasel out of criminal charges of tax evasion, with this exquisite defense:

'I didn't committ a crime. I simply failed to comply with the Law'.

and Dan Quayle's explanation to Envoronmentalists:
'It isn't pollution that is causing our problems--it's the impurities in our air and water.'

!Sacre Bleu! ow cood ah av bin zo ztoopeed? ov kairrss eet eez. ze ansair eez so ob vyuzz to mee naow!

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 17:15:29 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The 'procedures'
Message:

It's not that the procedures don't work. They always work.

I'm going to make a big guess what he's talking about here, although he doesn't actually say what those procedures are, just that they work, they ALWAYS work. So, let's assume the procedures are practicing Knowledge and all that entails, primarily meditating and 'keeping in touch', perhaps a little participation thrown in here and there for good measure.

Now, Maharaji, even though you don't spell it out for us what those procedures are (so much for letting the light shine on confusion), I think I'm making a pretty good guess at what you're talking about. My question would be 'how do you know?' What if there is a substantial number of us who say those procedures DON'T work? What if we were to say that they just leave us hanging dry, no closer to our objective than the day we first started, oh so many years ago.

Certainly, you must be aware that this is the contention that many, many premies have had over the years, so why do you continue to insist that they ALWAYS work, when so many of us have experienced that they NEVER work? What's your problem, and believe me, you've got a real problem with this. You keep insisting that your 'procedures' work when many of us know they don't.

How long do you plan to continue burying your head in the sand about this fact? It really doesn't look good for you to continue this facade. The word is out, you know, loud and clear, that many of us are completely unimpressed, in fact, completely disappointed, with our experience practicing Knowledge.

So, a word of advice. Change your tune. Admit that you don't know if the 'procedures' are going to work, that you're aware that many, many people claim they don't, because the longer you insist that you're right about this, the more in denial you're going to look, and the less credibility you're going to have.

Just trying to help out, buddy.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:34:31 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The 'procedures'
Message:

Good point Jerry,

It would indeed be more honest of him to say that the ' procedures ' work for an impressive 2% of those who try them.

Most premies blame themselves when it doesn't work for them. Some people seem to be pretty good at stilling the mind through meditation and others , me for example , find it a tedious and frustrating effort, not a joy.

THE PROCEDURES DIDN'T WORK FOR ME MAHA - Did I give it a chance ?

Was 28 yrs enough ?

Best wishes Jerry
Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:07:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve M
Subject: The 'procedures' are 1) watch video 2) send check
Message:

No wonder you guys never got anywhere with Knowledge. No one ever meditates! Good god. It isn't about the meditation. It's about the videos! You can never watch enough videos! Fuck meditation. Didn't you know the Master bends the rules and shows us short-cuts? Meditation is for nerds and those silly yogi types.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:20:00 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Nice post,Jerry.Common sense is uncommon...
Message:

Remember that one from m?

The point you make is so simple, and such common sense, but unfortunately not too many people around m have the guts or the opportunity to say something like that to him.

I keep wondering which fable is a better analogy of m...

'The emperor's new clothes' or 'the little boy who cried wolf'...

Your common sense post reminded me of both...

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 16:26:21 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Being A PWK These Days Is Not A Piece Of Cake
Message:

I walked into the video room Sunday just before the event was due to begin and walked out a minute later. I was with a close friend and wanted to get a sense of what was going on. I'm glad I went and also glad I didn't stay for the video. After looking at the above excerpt, I'm not sure what to make of the years I spent waiting for it all to make sense.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 17:25:36 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Steve Quint/everyone
Subject: Does EPO (or any ex) have a complete library of
Message:

the M/EV videos produced over the years?

They must be fascinating, as curiosities. Especially the banned or withdrawn ones.

(I never saw an official video, except for the early 'LOTU' -- or was it 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji'? -- movie from around 1973).

Since this site is the home of the true historical record, I wonder if, for completeness' sake, those materials should somehow be archived 'here', so to speak.

They will no doubt prove very interesting or valuable in the near future, in ways M/EV did not intend.

That is, the words and attitudes expressed there, unconsciously, will communicate and resonate in new ways as time goes on. It would be like how, when we look at historical film footage, or period advertisements, dress, and so on, we learn new things about our social conditioning, how we used to think without even understanding our underlying assumptions, about our unexamined consensus.

Very instructive, often cringe-worthy, and usually a lot of laughs.

Again, I never saw or went to a video presentation, so I might be off base here. But maybe properly examined and understood, they'd be good preventative or deterrents, to help 'future generations' avoid making similar mistakes. They must be sources of some real howlers, I would expect.

Just an idea. Any thoughts?
C.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:00:08 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: The status of the anti Maharaji sites
Message:

Carl said,

Since this site is the home of the true historical record, I wonder if, for completeness' sake, those materials should somehow be archived 'here', so to speak.

Carl, and anyone else who isn't clear on this,

Before Brian (the EPO webmaster) responds to your statement, I just wanted to say that the EPO site (which is not owned by me) is just a site set up by some ex-premies to give some information about Maharaji. It doesn't have any official status, doesn't pretend to be a complete historical record, and anyone who wants there to be a complete historical record is free to create one.

Forum Admin

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:09:58 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Maybe that was wishful thinking . . . but it seems
Message:

that somehow, with all the links and so forth, and the 'DLM/EV Papers', and the neat things J-M has recently brought forward, that EPO was indeed a repository of a history forgotten, denied or conveniently revised by EV.

I might have been a little over-the-top with the word 'official'. Gad, perish the thought... we don't need Ex versions of WPC, 'suits' or church ladies !

I was basically wondering about those curious M/EV videos . . . I can only imagine they would in time reveal things more disturbing than were originally intended.

BTW, many many thanks for your tireless and unsung efforts on site maintenance. You the man!

Best,
C.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 13:47:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Electricity
Message:

When you want to turn on a light, flip the switch upward, unless it was installed upside-down, then flip it downward.

Hey, I think I'm getting the hang of this.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:37:07 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Electricity, light, a torch, bioluminescence, etc
Message:

what the dumfuck fails to realize is, that if you have confusion and you're trying to work in darkness because you can't see what you're trying to sort out, you bring in illumination of whatever kind you can---eaither that, or you take the whole mess to another place where you CAN shed illumination upon it--i dont care if we're speaking literally or metaphorically--
AND THEN YOU LOOK AT THE ITEMS THAT CONFUSED YOU, BECAUSE YOU COULDNT SEE THEM IN THE DARKNESS, AND WITH ILLUMINATION, YOU SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE AND SORT THEM OUT SO THAT THEY ARE PLAINLY VISIBLE TO ONE AND ALL, AND YOU PUT THEM IN THE RIGHT ORDER.

NO NUMBNUTS SITS AND STARES AT THE LIGHT LIKE A DOOFUS. YOU USE THE LIGHT TO ILLUMINATE WHAT'S CONFUSING YOU SO YOU CAN SEE IT AND MAKE IT STRAIGHT.

which of course begs the question, who's creating that obscurity and keeping you in darkness, so you get confused and can't see what you want to know?

ahhhh-it all makes sense to me now. along time ago maharaji said 'maybe you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink----but you can put an awful lot of salt in his food...'

you can tell people about the knowledge and the light, but you can't make them take it. But you can obscure and confuse and black out their understanding until you're the only thing they can listen to.

classic sales tactic. make people want something they don't need.
if you sell towels, pour water on em. if you sell drinks, give em salty snacks for free.
if selling drugs is your income, keep em sick.

if you want them in debt to you, keep giving em credit so they'll always owe you more.
if fixing things is your trade, always break something, in the process of repairing something else.

If you sell enlightenment, confuse them and keep em in the dark.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:48:40 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: janet
Subject: ***Best Of Forum*** nt
Message:

nt

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