__ __ hamzen -:- You will have a long wait rich -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 17:46:58 (EST)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're always a pleasure to read, ham. [nt] -:- Tues, Oct 30, 2001 at 02:35:25 (EST)

__ __ __ Selene -:- those moments are great -:- Tues, Oct 30, 2001 at 01:01:07 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- TREASURE of a post, hamzen! [nt] -:- Tues, Oct 30, 2001 at 00:48:29 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Great post, Ham -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 19:39:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- **BEST OF FORUM** -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 18:52:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- I agree, excellent post, Ham - NT -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 19:59:10 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- I feel for ya Rich -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 17:13:45 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: My Request to Talk..and their Response.. -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 16:26:48 (EST)

Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 17:46:58 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Richmandrake
Subject: You will have a long wait rich
Message:

And your post says a lot about why so many of us left.

I've had a wonderful zen like experience of meditation over the years but in the end had to walk because of the very lack of transparency you refer to.

It's odd really, because the drive that pulled me there was a deep one, one that was founded upon a deep search for truth, which is why I always loved the concept of satsang, if not the reality. Satsang for me meant attempting to be truthful at all times, and a faith that if I did, I would go deeper in my experience of living/life. I found this to be true, but from the top down at ev, ie from gm down, I saw little of this in actuality, and a huge amount of programming going on, which showed little faith in the process.

At some point, to start disentangling the emotional trauma of it all you will have to see that your committment, although naive and misguided was not a complete waste. The difficult part is realizing that YOU produced all the good stuff you felt, and your unconscious was uncomfortable because you knew the ev/gm reality was fake. Your confidence has taken a battering because of your lack of awareness and naivete, but that's the price we've paid for investing in a belief system.
The way you are feeling now will pass, and you will be much wiser for it, even if you have to go through a dark night of the soul as I did, but I can guarantee you that you will never get the open ended, honest truthful response you are after because you are already a better and more truthful person than the people who know the facts who are in the org. They are duplicitous and know it, how can they talk honestly with you.

The response of Please Consider This to your genuine need is a classic example of this, in some ways worse because they masquerade as being human, but when it comes to it they can't respond, but just hang onto their beliefs. And that's what makes it a religion, it's founded on beliefs, not a genuine desire for truth.

You've got to see that even in your pain, maybe because of your pain, and your inability to deny it, you are already way ahead in the truth stakes.

I know it's scary, very exposing, almost chaotic what you are going through, if I read your post right, but it's out in the open now and without completely lying to yourself because of your inability to deal with your pain, there is no going back.

Have strength richmandrake, you can make it through your dark night, and as I know from my own experience, you will be stronger and wiser than you have ever been.
It's a tough lesson, but not as tough as surviving auschwitx say, and you can do it.

I can also guarantee you that once through the worst you will be able to really laugh at your naivete, monty python style. I have had wonderful moments, truly painful because of the intensity of the laughter, not least trying to explain to my mates how I ever got caught up in such a conceptual nightmare, lila madness indeed.

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Date: Tues, Oct 30, 2001 at 02:35:25 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: You're always a pleasure to read, ham. [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Oct 30, 2001 at 01:01:07 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: those moments are great
Message:

I remember one with eb. We were trying to explain the ex forum and the guru and all of it to this really funny writer friend of mine .
Between our explanations and his comments I had one of those where you cry because you are laughing so hard and think you will die from the stomach pains. Great post thanks.

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Date: Tues, Oct 30, 2001 at 00:48:29 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: TREASURE of a post, hamzen! [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 19:39:31 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Great post, Ham
Message:

Nice to see you here.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 18:52:42 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM**
Message:

Hamzen,

What a beautiful post. This spoke to me as well. I agree with the following:

The difficult part is realizing that YOU produced all the good stuff you felt, and your unconscious was uncomfortable because you knew the ev/gm reality was fake.

And the Dark Night of the Soul Thing! Yeah, I'm still coming through that tunnel. Wasn't fun, or pleasant at all.

And, this says it all, I can guarantee you that you will never get the open ended, honest truthful response you are after because you are already a better and more truthful person than the people who know the facts who are in the org. They are duplicitous and know it, how can they talk honestly with you.

Such an insightful comment.

Take care,

Deborah

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 19:59:10 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I agree, excellent post, Ham - NT
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 17:13:45 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richmandrake
Subject: I feel for ya Rich
Message:

The Andersen twins and Mitch Ditkoff (and 'Rob' who doesn't have much to say except he thinks he missed out by not living in an ashram -- man is HE deluded), are not interested in any kind of contrary view, no matter how civil and rational.

I find that very interesting, they while they write articles, on a completely censored and one-sided website, with no contrary positions or opinions allowed, they claim they aren't part of a cult. Amazing. What Mitch Ditkoff and the Andersens don't seem to 'get' is that a cult is really about having an information disease, the difficulty in "hearing" opposing viewpoints, and hostility to, or avoidance of, contrary, negative, or dissenting views about the cult, and especially the cult leader. That, is the basic definition of what a cult is.

So, in their attempt to ask people to 'consider' only their own, one-sided views, they just give more proof that they really are in a cult.

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 16:26:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richmandrake
Subject: Re: My Request to Talk..and their Response..
Message:

Hi Rich,

I'm not clear on what you want someone to say to you. Are you looking for someone to confirm the allegations? Are you trying to get Maha, himself, to address these allegations?

Did you speak w/MD or MD?

I'm still depressed about Maha myself. Many times I hear myself say that I wish it wasn't true. But finding a loophole to deceive myself is not an option.

Glad to see that you're still around.

p.s. So, am I to understand that you are Henrietta? If so, would you like to start a gossip column. It would be great fun ())

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