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Premies & Ex-Followers' Comments

The following is an excerpt of a thread over the M's lineage issue, between Ex-Followers and Premies on the Ex-premie.org Forum. Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EDT) From: JW To: Everyone Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: I appreciate all the research people have done on the supposed lineage, or lack thereof, of Maharaji. It's a signifcant thing for people to know how tenuous and unlikely it is that M has any lineage at all, that would entitle him to claim to be what he does. But I was just thinking how little that meant to me when I got involved with him and became a premie. I think Jim wrote a funny post once, (funny but probably true) about the 'due diligence' he went through to determine M's authenticity. If someone had asked me the 'lineage' of the perfect master I was devoting my entire life to, I would have had to say the masters came along something like the following order: Maharaji, his father Shri Hans, some other guy, a bunch of other Indian guys, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, Ram, Jesus Christ. Now, I know Hannuman was a monkey, so I guess he wasn't a perfect master, although Charanand talked about this monkey endlessly. And that guy Kabir that Maharaji was always quoting, he was just a poet or something, so he wasn't a master either, was he? How about Confucius? King Arthur? Rasputin? Maybe Ghandi? How about St. Francis?, (he was very popular around here until historical studies show how the Franciscans persecuted the native americans, so he's out). I know M said that Shri Hans, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad and JC revealed the knowledge, but did he ever acknowledge anyone else?   Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:45:12 (EDT) From: Jim To: JW Subject: The highest compliment Message: If someone had asked me the 'lineage' of the perfect master I was devoting my entire life to, I would have had to say the masters came along something like the following order: Maharaji, his father Shri Hans, some other guy, a bunch of other Indian guys, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad, Ram, Jesus Christ. JW, I wouldn't normally say anything but, well, I will. Do you realize that this sentence is what I said then almost verbatim? I don't know what to make of it. My lawyers say just to leave it alone and I'm inclined to agree. Just give me the weekened, okay? I've got to let this sit.   Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:56:37 (EDT) From: JW To: Jim Subject: The highest compliment Message: Well, I doubt it's verbatim, Jim, but it was something like that, or at least it's how I remembered it, and it kind of summed up my thinking back then. I did give you credit for the idea, so don't sue me, I've got a whole firm here to back me up. And my firm is bigger than yours.   Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 19:57:26 (EDT) From: g's mom To: JW Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: 'know M said that Shri Hans, Krishna, Buddha, Mohammad and JC revealed the knowledge, but did he ever acknowledge anyone else?' Yes, Cheetah a direct descendant of Hannuman. I do geneology on the side. Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 21:53:43 (EDT) From: CD To: JW Subject: historic people Message: >How about Confucius? Ever hear the story (not by M) of Confucius meeting Lao Tse? Socrates is conspicuously missing from your list. Kabir is in the big Websters. CD Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:42:30 (EDT) From: TD To: JW Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: Yeah, Maharaji's lineage wasn't important to me either, until after I became a premie. Prior to that I was only interested in receiving Knowledge and finally learning to 'go within'. Then what I think happened was that somewhere along the way I sort of needed to 'validate' the experience I was having - kind of reinforce to myself that I 'got the right one' and that there was no other 'level' to attain from some other master/guru. That's why I started to read all the 'holy books' again - looking for the double meanings to the passages I was reading. In the Bhagavad Gita I would ascribe our Knowledge to the Knowledge Krishna talks about and yet would let those passages that didn't correlate or make sense, slip through my critical net. I would read with such joy Kabir's poetry, feeling just like him and how he felt about his Master. It became a cycle, practising, listening to M, reading the holy books and so on. I now realise why M quotes Kabir so much and that's because Kabir was so 'over the top' in terms of his devotion to his Master. In a way, Kabir is Maharaji's ideal premie, in that he is an obsessive devotee. Many premies do this same kind of historical reinforcing. My ex-partner did and still does, and when I was flicking M this year, a very senior EV person said to me 'How can you doubt that Knowledge is the real thing when its written about in all the holy books'. So, M may not come out and blatantly talk about his place in the history of Perfect Masters, but that is what is so sophisticated about his style of manipulation. He achieves the same thing that he did 30 years ago, albeit with a different technique. As opposed to saying 'Guru (me) is greater than God' he calls himself a Perfect Master which through the natural association and assumption made by his audience, guarantees the same result. Regards, TD Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 22:49:24 (EDT) From: Jim To: TD Subject: Walt Whitman, Francis Bacon Message: Did anyone ever read Maurice Bucke's bizarre but wonderfully entertaining spiritual hagiography of his bud,Walt Whitman? It's called 'Cosmic Consciousness'. In it he argues that mankind's been getting more spiritual by the century, the proof being that the enlightened beings that keep popping up every now and then -- like Bacon, Buddha, or Jesus -- keep getting cooler. Whitman, he claimed, was the most advanced enlightened guy to date. Too bad he didn't live long enough to hear the 'Peace Bomb.'   Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 23:20:27 (EDT) From: Scott T. To: JW Subject: Perfectness and Legitimacy Message: JW: Legitimacy, or the right to rule or be in authority, is an enormous issue. But you've pointed out one of the subtleties. But I was just thinking how little that meant to me when I got involved with him and became a premie. I think Jim wrote a funny post once, (funny but probably true) about the 'due diligence' he went through to determine M's authenticity. The thing is, you didn't know that there were any others even making a comparable claim, and again the oversight was largely due to the way that Knowledge was presented is the anima mundi. However, had you known that giving Knowledge was not such a unique function then you might have been a bit more discerning about M. Because he could claim to be part of the 'big' lineage we didn't bother about the details. The first step in breaking the spell or mystique of M's legitimacy involves giving people the information that there are some details to be accounted for. M used to make the claim that 'Perfect Master' merely meant that he taught 'perfectness' (which is what we called perfection in kindergarten). Well, the fact is that the term 'Perfect Master' has a consensual meaning within the tradition that M belongs to, and it means a good deal more than 'teacher of perfection.' Devotees in India are in the habit of eating the toenails and fingernails (not to mention other excreta) of the 'Perfect Master.' No one ever suggested I do such a thing with my math professor, although I'm sure he'd have been amused. (On the 'Gauss Scale,' comparing himself to that mathematician, he considered himself only about a .0003. This score hardly warrants munching on his excess carbon.) -Scott   Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:29:12 (EDT) From: JW To: Scott T. Subject: Perfectness and Legitimacy Message: I think that's very true, Scott. The fact that most of us had little or no knowledge of the lineage, as well as who else was out there to compare Maharaji to, meant we were at a disadvantage. Others had just enough information and knowledge to make them dangerous. I recall some premies who really acted like they were very spiritually advanced and had all kinds of spiritual knowledge, but in reality they had just read a couple of books, watched Kung Fu on television, maybe had done TM, and maybe took a trip to India during summer vacation. Date: Thurs, Jul 16, 1998 at 23:44:38 (EDT) From: pam To: JW Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: From what I've gathered from M there isn't a 'lineage,' i.e. there isn't a family tree or teachings that get passed on that entitle one to be a 'Master.' It's not something you become, it's something you are. Like a prodigy or a savant. It's a gift. Not something you qualify for. So, if that's true, searing out a lineage is a waste of time because there isn't one. Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 01:20:37 (EDT) From: Gail To: pam Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: How do you know he is the Lord? Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 12:38:38 (EDT) From: JW To: pam Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: I think Maharaji has been intentionally vague about this. And also contradictory. On the one hand, great care was taken to state that M inherited the powers of perfect master from his father, who was the perfect master before him, including an implication that his father 'chose' him as the perfect master before he died. If it's true that anyone can get zapped with the power, of if you just 'are' based on some personal ability or something, then that kind of explanation wouldn't have been necessary. Also, especially in the early years, great care was also taken to explain that there is only ONE perfect master on earth at a time and it's up to human beings to find him (has there ever been a 'her'?) Persumably, if it's just a matter of personal ability, then many people possibily have that same ability. I'm not surprised that M no longer talks about a lineage, especially because the research seems to show the one he has is highly questionable, his brother also claims to have been chosen by Shri Hans and is really the perfect master and not M, and the less he says, the less people will pay attention to it. You're also right. From what I gather he doesn't have a lineage, although it's curious that he used to specifically claim one. Another form or revisionism? Does this go hand-in-hand with 'knowledge-lite' that he's been preaching for the past few years? Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 15:37:15 (EDT) From: Anon To: pam Subject: The Lineage of the Master Message: The thing is..if M was born a Master and didn't need any influence from outside to be one, as it seems you believe, then it seems remarkably odd that He chose to be born into a family situation where there was a great deal of exactly this kind of influence. I mean, He could have made it clearer for the world (that he is a Self-made-Master) if he had been born into some family who had a past history of relatives who did something completely different like being stock-brokers or something. I think it is really naive to suggest that it is mere coincidence that Maharaji was brought up in such an influential environment, and that all the past lineage and teachings counts for nothing. Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 20:18:54 (EDT) From: Jim To: pam Subject: Really, pam? Message: From what I've gathered from M there isn't a 'lineage,' i.e. there isn't a family tree or teachings that get passed on that entitle one to be a 'Master.' pam, Where'd Maharaji say this? He didn't. Hey what's wrong with you? Didn't you see the film, Satguru Has Come? 'The light never dies but is passed along....'   Date: Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 23:09:56 (EDT) From: Mark To: Pam Subject: Pam /the Masterspeaks! Message: somewhere in my journey you'll find 3 different quotes on this very defining topic of lineage each about 7-10 years apart right from the horses mouth ! Obviously, we have a real Politician here ! there is no perfect master til you believe body and soul there is one then there is one. it doesn't even matter who you bow to ! I think there should be a planetary '#1 Perfect Master'contest, open to all pretenders to the throne Hold it in Atlantic City Geraldo Rivera can be MC Yanni run the orchestra Pick your belief system if you're not the central actor you've gone offline from life central & you're just another POW in Earth's great religious indoctrination wars.