Discussing their past involvement
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The following is an excerpt of different threads between Ex-Followers and Premies on the Ex-premie.org Forum.
Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:11:12 (EST)
Original: NA
Posted by: Loafji Recipient: All
Subject: Degrees of seperation
Message:
I've been involved with M for coming up to 20 years - and unlike some people who seem angry and bitter and resentful - I had a pretty good time - the true cost SEEMS to be pretty heavily weighed up with benefit - which makes my anlaysis of the whole situation not so symplistic as Black and white - in coversation with premies I find myself playing devils advocate and pulling holes in their blinkered and dependant culture - As a person on the edge of clarity and who admits to enjoying being overwhelmed by the feelings which M and Knowlege directed me towards - I don't want to deny ANY good stuff. One thing seems clear - the further away from the residence I am - the happier I seem to be. Perhaps this tells me something !
Thoughts and encouragement by return of pidgeon
Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 06:48:30 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:11:12 (EST)
Posted by: AJW Recipient: Loafji
Subject: Wheat and Chaff
Message:
Hi Loafji,
I can understand where you're coming from here, as I've been going through similar stuff for ages.
It's a bit like separating the wheat from the chaff.
The process started for me ages ago, and accelerated when I realised I was in a cult and wanted to get out. I was incarcerated for about 25 years. People like me, who got into Divine Light Mission in the early 70s, went through lots of intense brainwashing sessions, night after night, where we were told, and told others, that Maharaji was here with more power than ever before, Knowledge was God, he was greater than God etc. This stuff doesn't fall away instantly, but takes time to unravel.
As a premie you are indoctrinated to think that what you experience when you sit down to practice the meditation techniques is direct contact with the Life Force, or God, (Divine Light, Holy Name, Harmonies, Nectar).
This is bullshit. Knowledge isn't an experience of God within. It's just some old Indian mediation techniques. Premies don't have the exclusive option on the Creator.
It takes time for all this stuff to fall away. Like I said, it's just over a year since I posted my 'Journey' and came out publicly, and garbage is still dropping off. I'm not there yet.
Anyway, good luck on your journey out of the cult Loafji. If you're ever in London you should come to one of our Latvian Nights.
Anth the still deprogramming but hopes to be free by the next Millenium.
Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:48:35 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:11:12 (EST)
Posted by: Anon Recipient: Loafji
Subject: Re: Degrees of separation
Message:
the true cost SEEMS to be pretty heavily weighed up with benefit - which makes my anlaysis of the whole situation not so symplistic as Black and white - I don't want to deny ANY good stuff.
No, you obviously want to know the truth. Don't we all? This site may seem to be very Black sometimes but believe me... beneath the tough exteriors there are many sensitive souls here, trying to discern truth even if it means being outspoken, and appearing negative. We are just frustrated toeing the line.
Somebody I met yesterday said that he thought premies were much more 'secretive' in their activities recently, and he cited, as an example, that he had asked a lady premie friend how she had got on at some event or other, and she had basically implied that she had been urged to be secretive about attending and was therefore reticent to speak about it. To my surprise, my buddy suggested that the 'general secretive trend amongst premies' that he perceived, was a direct effect of the influence of this website. He was quite sure of this.
He then went on to give a few examples of a couple of people he knew, who had been aspirants or 'new premies', who had basically become disillusioned (they had apparently tired of giving Maharaji and their premie peers the benefit of the doubt) and who wanted some clarity. Getting no sympathy from either of the former, they were naturally delighted to find that the sort of things that bothered them were openly expressed and discussed on a daily basis at this website. Since their involvement with Maharaji was relatively recent, it would seem that they were all the more easily able to put Maharaji and premies behind them.
I basically have been undergoing the same process, only with the factor of having spent a great deal longer suppressing my doubts and investing my trust in him. To extricate oneself from a long period of denial is obviously going to take more time. I can understand why after 20 years you feel only 'on the edge of clarity'.
You seem to be facing the same dilemma as most of us, in that you rightly want to address the stuff that rubs you up the wrong way- without 'denying the good stuff' as you put it. Unfortunately I found that within the realm of Maharaji and premies their really is no room for any intelligent or complete discussion about the sort of doubts that inevitably creep in. Or if there ever is, then satisfactory answers have notbeen yet forthcoming. Worse, there is clearly a feeling that any reservations, complaints or doubts that people have, are deemed merely the result of the sufferer not having an 'overwheming' enough experience of Knowledge. The inevitable impression is that one should toe the line until these doubts go away. Well, they didn't for me.
It's a one way show really. Maharaji speaks... you listen. You speak... no one listens!
There is no room for open discussion.
Nobody really cares what you think.
Everybody is busy trying to please M.
Being a premie is obviously a delicate enough state that it is rather threatened by discussion.
People's respect and love for Maharaji is often tinged with fear.
Premies are often 'jumpy' or 'insensitive'- especially at events or around Maharaji. This has to be interpreted as a bad effect-what causes it?
If you look at the thing from a sociological point of view (by checking out the Indian Roots etc) one can see how the 'phenomena' of Maharaji and Knowledge works, and this in turn helps to de-mystifiy the whole thing. There are 'down to earth' explanations for almost everything.
Secrecy, specialness/uniqueness, investing trust, vows, the belief in a mystical embodiment of the divine in a Master etc. are all things that are key to M and Knowledge working. As are emotion, devotion, dependency, suppression of doubt, being in a new society of supportive believers, the devotion of time/attendance at events and of course the practice of the techniques.
Anyway, you seem concerned with weighing up the benefits against the pitfalls.
I have suffered that same process and I think it is not so good to weigh things up when confused. In the end I have had to address my own immediate and pressing need for clarity. For me that has involved quite a lot of writing here since a few years ago; discussing stuff, a bit of ranting and of course the great theraputic 'Journey' writing experience. I actually wrote 2 'journeys'-one remains here and the other was on some former site-filed under 'Expressions' or suchlike-I can't remember exactly what. Anyway, it was a very cathartic experience putting pen to paper. Also a sort of a challenge to Maharaji to answer some questions I suppose. (No response yet from that direction though!)
Talking here can be like challenging God to actually prove himself too. At first, I had definate feelings of being a naughty child- since to write here was such a totally taboo thing to do for a premie, impressed with Maharaji for so long as Mother and Father, Brother and Friend. There's the confronting of the fear that you might be damned forever like Judas. etc. A real sense of betraying your creator and all the attendant fears - only not really where it counts actually. It's been a relief to acknowledge my conscience - my humanity. The high moral ground (which has been discussed here) is surely the domain of those who are motivated by their consciences and their honesty.
My attempt to gain clarity involved reading a lot of the historical background to Maharaji. There are some very good books around which explain the origin of a lot of the things we were doing as premies.
Since then, JM's website has addressed a lot of that side of things and is no doubt a valuable resource for people who wish to understand the present the better by gaining an understanding of the past. Others will find it a load of boring Indian twaddle. (which of course it largely is!) New premies seem to be pretty unaware of the way Maharaji presented himself in the past and current premies seem immoderately keen to draw attention away from the past and onto Maharaji's very simplified current, less provocative profile.
This website is inevitably provocative to premies since it polarises, so symmetrically, the premie world where Maharaji is sacrosanct and beyond question. But it should not be so. When I first wrote here I was hopeful that Maharaji might even welcome some such honest expression. Clearly he had expressed the desire to move on -to grow etc. It was my hope that he might have some sympathy for the terrible crisis of conscience which I was undergoing in the pursuit of truth- which has ironically led to my open questioning of his ways.
I confess that I am sad that premies tend to see former devotees who are suffering sincere misgivings- as the new enemy. At least we can be bothered to criticise Maharaji! As a matter of fact Maharaji could be grateful that some former premies dare speak out. It cannot be healthy, (even for God) to be surrounded by sycophantic people who agree with everything you do or say. Scared people. Let's face it- Maharaji is absolutely surrounded by 'yes' men. Does he benefit always from this?
I wish you luck in your pursuit for clarity.
Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:01:42 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:11:12 (EST)
Posted by: JHB Recipient: Loafji
Subject: Re: Degrees of seperation
Message:
Don't deny the good feelings, but think clearly about the issues here. Many premies were hurt by the devotional trip that Maharaji created, e.g. the closure of the ashrams. The wasted years of many premies when they could have been getting qualifications but instead tried to devote their lives to him. There's the Jagdeo paedophile stuff, where exes have posted here that Maharaji knew about it, and continued to allow him to be in communities with children. There's his ridiculously over the top wealth and continued demands for more money. And so much more.
Do your good feelings come from meditation? If so then assign the credit to meditation and your efforts. Not to Maharaji who spreads the deceit that he is somehow necessary for the experience. That's a lie, as I think you are finding out.
Once these issues start to sink in, I think a little anger may arise.
All the best in your journey,
John.
Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:39:33 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:01:42 (EST)
Posted by: Loafji Recipient: JHB
Subject: Re: Degrees of seperation
Message:
Thanks. Its not that i cannot see the arrogance and the dreadful human pyramid which forms around and panders to the ego centric figurehead - be it guru, piriest, pop star or any charasmatic - it just that - in some ways - he has helped me - and in others -I too have wasted time and been strung along by a myth making self propaganda machine - I do need time and patience (from Both sides) to come to terms with it all. Thanks JHB
Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:18:01 (EST)
Original: NA
Posted by: Mark Recipient: All
Subject: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
In looking at Loafji's post and the use of separation,here's another possible explanation for you to synthesize the two conflicting realms of experience you have.(or people have in trying to extricate themselves from a system that arguably,has 'delivered')
This guru system, like quite a few others and most religions, separates you from your self. And Maharaji either doesn't choose or doesn't understand (neither choice is very flattering) the necessity in reconnecting the student back to the student. So they become a Follower. And that loop is permanent unless the student walks away(I think at this point it is safe to assume that Maharaji will not pull the curtain down on his own messiahship/dominance/or spiritual superiority)
So irony of ironies,you come to the teacher/friend/master/Lord to find a connection to yourself,and you end up being posited in a belief system that denies you permanent connection.Even though you had a permanent connection going in ! Strange,sad, but true. Its a shame really .But there certainly are further avenues and realms of personal growth and experience that dwarf the 'knowledge ' loop.
If this knowledge could connect you to your self,at this point 20 years later,you would have stabilized at a bonafide level of bliss.If Maharaji were a real master,he would have re-empowered you to you could actually GROW.
And you and so many of the friends and people I know over the years would be accruing the benefits of their genuine sincerity.But neither guru or techniques hold even a dim candle to our own resplendant nature. This is not the Knowlwdge of Knowledge, and he is not the King of Kings.
However the Group/Master initiation IS a stage where connection to self is mixed /blended with outside dynamics.Like any good energy orgy,REAL HIGHS are attained.And with the institution of a workable belief system those highs can be enhanced recycled and refined.
But finally in order to proceed/move on/grow/ that separation has to be reclaimed by the individual.And in the Maharaji system,there is NOTHING telling you to regain personal Sovereignty !Becauce Maharaji is the SOVEREIGN in that system.One is there because of his grace kindness etc ( its a total crock,but if the participants believe it give their power love to Mahari,it will work. Belief systems do heal.)
In my understanding,the missing ingredient, the solution to separation, synthesis,and moving on- is self love.No- SELF love. Total devotion. Steadily,patiently,devotedly.
Impersonal filling of our OWN tanks with the sweet kisses and the purity that is traditionally given to the Guru/savior figure.
Seeing the same divinity /light/unlimitedness in ONEs SELF that has in some default fashion been granted to the guy on the stage/tape/VCR.
Taking back the power-which in this system is love-taking the love back and shining it upon yourself/myself/ourself for awhile.
Till we feel our tanks filled up.
Call it the 5th technique.
Or final instrutions on how to gain escape velocity from GURU MAHARAJI's WORLD.
But trust we,do it.You/we certainly deserve that love. (and of course I'm not talking ego,but the real love- the secret mojo we usually save for programs/altars/darshan lines/babies,etc.The pure non-judgemental BIG love).
Experience the Soul plane and other planes that we can STABILISE higher inner experience in- without losing ourselves to the big bad wolf who persists in believing he is grandma.
Then you will have the power strength clarity to move on and resonate with other experiences in life that will nourish the sense of connection we certainly deserve.
That's the funny thing.We all came for Love.The real Love. And that's the ONE thing completely missing from the system.Maharaji obviously thinks he's great and has a legendary ego, but he certainly suffers from a lack of self love.I think that should be relatively clear to most of this readership.Bad childhood,weird dynamics,being short- for whatever reason. The students under his general aura,have dispensed with the basic love caring and concern that we all had back at the beginning. Because its not called for or even recognized in the system.
Finally,own needs there own power and divinity intact in order to escape theclear and recognizable membrane of fear that exists as one moves out of the sphere of spiritual influence that Maharaji's(& any system) exerts.
Take your love and soul back before you move on.Its a real process.But the last degree of separation- the guru's kidnapping of your spiritual power and identity,can not be eliminated until you pass through this membrane. And a true amount of self love is needed.
Maybe Maharaji on some final level really is trying his best,promoting a subuniverse where no one has enough REAL self-love,so they play the mirror game. But the main thing is, his life is not yours.
Once we dissolve the last degree or separation.
Happy birthday Loafji, and have a good miilenium.
Mark
Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:30:05 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:18:01 (EST)
Posted by: bb Recipient: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Seems like although the highs can be recycled and
refined, and we seem compelled to try to do that,
it gets thinner in the process.
Although I guess it is up to the individual whether or not
they add the enthusiasm and/or attitude that may make
thier belief system come alive for them.
I would rewrite your sentence about 'at this point
20+ years later..' I am not sure how I would go with it
but I dont think we are not in a level of bliss because
the rawats are not 'a real master'. I dont see where
anyone playing a master role would be appropriate.
Someone saying 'hereis your breath, now feel it when you
want and go pursue your dreams and make them come
true' would be about right.
But of course no one is brief when it comes to advice!
It would have been nice if he had, as you said, re-empowered
us at some point.
The forum has proved useful in doing that for some,
I am one that got help here.
Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 12:16:04 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:43:56 (EST)
Posted by: Monmot Recipient: JHB
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Dear John:
The post is a bit stream-of-consciosness/snaky in its style, but if you do get through it, the post makes a very good point. Perhaps it was the glass of wine I imbibed which eased my reading process :-)), but it was worth it.
M
Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 02:14:47 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:43:56 (EST)
Posted by: Mark Recipient: JHB
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
JHB,
In simple terms,the passive meditation practices are not the be all end all of inner experience. Though the experience of the void Mr Deputy Dog discusses is I agree an delightful oasis.
Active meditation,co-creational thought, or openess to allowing ourselves to grow into or become the vibrational equivilent of the Christ or Perfect Master or whatever container of Savior we use is in my opinion the goal energetically. Ironically savior use drives a wedge between ourselves and pure experience . These systems all have Glass Ceilings, though they enhance experience
TO A POINT.
And to love ourselves the same way we loved the Guru,is the one very way to outgrow the baby-bathwater issue Anon and Loafji were talking about .
What is needed is a bigger conception of ourself then us versus god or guru. and then allowing the embracement of the energy that by natural law fills the bigger thought.
It is a way out of duality, that outgrows gurus saviors disempowering religions and meditation. LOVE . SELF LOVE.One second of direct soul experience,or experience of one's higher self exposes the glass ceiling.
hope that was clear.Tho you may not disagree
Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 07:23:30 (EST)
Original: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 02:14:47 (EST)
Posted by: JHB Recipient: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Mark,
Can you remember being a normal human being? If so, please communicate in a way that would be comprehensible to a normal human being. There's a lot of mumbo-jumbo in your posts.
John.
Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:43:23 (EST)
Original: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:18:01 (EST)
Posted by: Loafji Recipient: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
It is interesting for me just to observe what is happening to me - the encouraged habit of 'gratitude' seems to be one of the most dangerous and seductive - for it is sweet - but addictive - but I agree wholeheartedly with what you have been kind enough to write. I do not want to spend any more time in orbit around anybody else - and yet - perhaps paradoxically - the experience I have found in meditation - and which El Hugio Pakistanio has nurtured - (and he has)- when I OWN it - seems to be a great treasure to run off with.
Its a bit like getting the cheese out of the mousetrap i guess.
Anyway - it still feels scary and exciting. I'm a bit wobbly on my own feet. Thanks