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Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at
20:21:09 (EDT)
Original: NA
Posted by: Joe
Recipient: All
Email Address: Kevjo@mindspring.com
Subject: Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76
Message:
I still have the tape of Guru Maharaj Ji speaking to the
coordinators after a program in Atlantic City in December,
1976. I quoted parts of it a few months ago. That's when
Maharaji says that the ashrams are a life-long committment,
that anybody who moved out and got married made a terrible
mistake (that it was equivalent to blowing your brains out
with dynamite), and the like.
All of it is enlightening, especially in light of the
lies Maharaji and Elan Vital are spreading now about what
Maharaji actually did and said back then.
Anyhow, I have this tape, and I really think it should be
transcribed and put onto the EPO site. Would anyone like to
'do participation' and take care of that? Volunteers? My
email is above.
Joe
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Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at
09:59:54 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
Posted by: RichMandrake
Recipient: Joe
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: I Second the Motion!!!
Message:
Yes...It would be VERY Interesting and Clarifying to read
the transcript of that Meeting, Joe. Important Stuff!!...I
am hoping that you can get it up on a Separate Page on EPO
soon....
By the way thanks for your intelligent and (usually)
reasoned posts here. I enjoy and benefit from reading them
even when I disagree with you...All the
Best...RichMandrake
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Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at
22:27:32 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
Posted by: Passing Through
Recipient: Joe
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: 1976? not far enough!
Message:
Gee Joe,
Lighten up!
Or do you really think he meant it literally?
I think the root of all ex-premies problems with M and K
is that you take everything literally and have no sense of
humor.
PT
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Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at
23:24:39 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
Posted by: Jim
Recipient: Passing Through
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: Tell that to Dave Wener's family
Message:
I think the root of all ex-premies problems with M and K
is that you take everything literally and have no sense of
humor.
You deserve to be punished, PT. But guess what? You are
being punished. I have to remember that when I see such
insulting garbage. I have to remember that it's you guys,
not us, who are paying so dearly. I spent some time with a
guy like you yesterday and walked away feeling so sorry for
him. I'm sure if we were together in real life rather than
here, I'd feel the same for you.
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Posted: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at
23:03:17 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
Posted by: Pat:C)
Recipient Passing Through
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: Exes have no sense of humor
Message:
and take everything literally. Yep. Say what you mean and
mean what you say. It's called speaking the truth.
Infortunately we were all so naive and trusting that we
believed Rawat's lies to the point that people gave him
their inheritances and were impoverished when they were
kicked out of the ashrams and other's killed themsleves when
they found out that the superior power in person was unable
to help them. Gee, but it has all been lies and jokes all
along. How silly of us.
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Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at
00:57:17 (EDT)
Original: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:03:17 (EDT)
Posted by: Disculta
Recipient: Pat:C)
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: Took it literally and flipped
Message:
It wasn't funny to me, especially since it was being
quoted to me by my bridesmaid as I was getting married to
the guy I had been encouraged to move out of the ashram with
a few months earlier, when they were trying to avoid the
responsibility of all us IHQ premies.
I was in for a penny, in for a pound. I took everything M
said completely to heart. It seemed absurd to me to go so
far as to be a devotee of a strange, overweight,
materialistic guru unless I was absolutely certain that he
was my spiritual master, and that therefore I should listen
to him implicitly. So his turns and changes of direction
were a major mind-and-body-fuck for me. I think that the day
I heard that satsang (BTW, the bridesmaid is apparently
still married to someone who is rumored to be CW!) was the
beginning of a big down-turn in my life - and in the lives
of many premies I knew. Although on the one side, things got
more exciting and 'high,' with tons of programs and a return
of the 'magic,' it was being driven by extremely heavy and
abuse satsang by M at most of the programs, and especially
at the new 'secret' programs for the higher-ranking ashram
premies or instructors or rich premies.
It's not okay that M did this! It was clearly
self-serving, as I now understand. He was not concerned
about our human wellbeing, and because I believed his
certainty that he was the Lord, I overrode myself and my
body and became ill.
Many, many people I knew became ill or a bit crazy during
this time, especially when M reversed the rules again and
closed the ashram and fired the instructors, leaving
thousands of people who had dedicated their
lives––sometimes leaving spouses and
children–– devastated and in various stages of
shock. It's my belief that a good proportion of these people
are still suffering from PTSD from these shocking
experiences of institutional guru abuse, and haven't found a
way to validate what they went through and therefore 'get
over it.' I think that most people who went through this
just moved on, which is a really good idea - I did. But I
think that most of them moved on without really integrating
their experiences, which leaves a kind of stagnation in part
of the self which can lead to depression and an inability to
make one's life work. We often meet people on these forums
who have just discovered the information and the forums
after years and years of being out, doing fine and
forgetting about the whole thing. Yet when they actually
look at what happened and let themselves feel what they
actually felt about it, which was probably suppressed by
shock or lack of permission at the time, they frequently
report that they feel like they have recovered
something.
This is the reason some of us continue to post here,
despite having lives and not really caring a hoot about M. I
know it seems that we posters are obsessed about him. The
people who are sure we are obsessed about M are those who
actually are obsessed with him as a way of life, and they
can't imagine how it actually is from this side. Having seen
through him, he doesn't mean much to us one way or the
other, but we are not happy with his behaviors and their
effects on parts of ourselves, and on so many other
people.
Love kd-feeling rather serious
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Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at
03:33:00 (EDT)
Original: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:57:17 (EDT)
Posted by: Pat:C)
Recipient: Disculta
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: Thanks, Disculta
Message:
I'll keep on posting too until Rev Rawat straightens out
his act and comes clean. The reason why I am here in the
first place is because an aspirant committed suicide in my
community last year. He killed himself because he had been
watching five months of Rawat videos all saying that he
could not come home without the master and needed to be
saved from the evil mind and the big bad world by the
master.
One does not turn to a master for help if one does not
need it. He asked for help and it was not forthcoming. He
needed help now not later. He began to feel that he was
being led down the garden path. He was told to have
patience. He chose to kill himself at the age of 22
instead.
I don't know any completely sane premies. The insanity
leads them to think that it's fine for the guru to play
games, tell lies and spin revisionist bullshit.
Like Jim, I also feel very sorry for them because it is
impossible for me to ever make them believe that, by leaving
the master, they will be freeing themselves from enslavement
to a cynical, unethical and greedy man. They really have to
see that for themselves and they can only see it if they
first find sanity and morals inside themsleves.
As long as they rationalize the master's obvious lack of
ethics they are themselves unethical or struggling with the
insanity of having to deal with conflicts in themsleves.
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Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at
09:31:46 (EDT)
Original: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
Posted by: bdtd
Recipient: Pat:C)
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: Re: Thanks, Disculta
Message:
Jim, I think you have put it in a nutshell....the lack of
ethics doesn't matter if they still seem him as THE master.
He has carte blanche if he is the man incarnate. The last
video I watched was the kit training advertising video. He
said grace is courtesy, so now it is all 'courtesy' of the
master. If we had just said, back in the old days, according
to him, that we loved him to death instead of calling him
the lord of the universe, there wouldn't be this confusion
today.
Ooops, my fault!
He is the master so he makes and changes the rules.
Knowledge and all that comes with it is 'courtesy' of him
and it's like borrowing a car. If he wants his car back,
then he gets his car back.........So all those people sat
there hearing this stuff and it seems justifying to them,
that he is the Master magician, waiving his wand of grace,
uhhh, COURTESY, and however the game of knowledge gets
played, is up to him, and it just doesn't matter. Infact, if
we have any brains at all, we would understand he can change
the 'rules' whenever and however he chooses.
Remember, that's why we need a living master, to make
knowledge alive in the time we are in....... How many times
has he said that? Golly, gee.
It is the stupidist video I had ever seen.
Still, yesterday, I was feeling very suseptible to it
all. It was that all pervasive pull that I was leaving
basically my whole existence behind. It was scary! The
vulnerability one is left with in trying to live without
premiedom is no easy task.
I realized I honestly had been existing for twenty-eight
years with the daily feeling that all I was, was due to
knowledge and M. And it didn't make me feel very confident
to go out and face my day. Infact, it was crippling and
paralyzing. This was the essential thing that had me tied to
knowledge and m. Without that, I had no humaness, no
identity worth anything, NO FEELING. The trick is, realizing
that is me. I can be all that because I always was. What a
revelation. But I tellya, it's a powerful tie. And I just
don't think premies can give up that tie, that umbilical
cord easily. A lot of factors have to be in place for that
one piece of information to click and then the whole picture
snaps into focus.
The best art exhibit I was lucky enough to attend was the
impressionist painters. Up close, they are just brush
strokes. Step back a few feet, it becomes a picture. Step
waaaaaaaaaay back, and it becomes a crystal clear moment in
time. I'm still stepping back, just trying not to trip over
my own feet. It's been a long time since I trusted my own
two feet.
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Posted: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at
11:12:17 (EDT)
Original: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:27:45 (EDT)
Posted by: RichMandrake
Recipient: bdtd
Email Address: Not Provided
Subject: The Michael Nouri Knowledge Hour
Message:
BTDT, You talked about watching the latest Knowledge
Propagation Video with Personal Host and MC Michael
Nouri....Ironically it was THAT Video, which I saw maybe 2
months ago...that was the Straw that Broke the Camels
Back...I had been limping along carrying that heavy bag of
rationalizations and irreconcilable beliefs on my Premie
Shoulder...Still waiting for MahaRawat to FINALLY make sense
of it all..Still Waiting to be able to FINALLY Surrender to
the Living Perfect Master (I know its sick but DEEP
Conditionings die hard).Always blaming myself for that
chronic..Uneasy feeling...That Something just Wasnt
Right..
I then walked in 5 minutes late to the Michael
Nouri/MahaRawat Variety Show. MahaRawat was in the middle of
explaining that it wasnt HIS fault that people had seen him
as the Lord of all Creation...I immediately felt my Blood
begin to Boil...This Had ALWAYS Been a sticking point to
me...Why doesnt Maharaji JUST TELL THE TRUTH??!!..I had
managed to suppress that desire/conflict/confusion to a
great degree..But for some reason..THIS Time..to hear
Maha/Rawat spout that Bullshit...was INTOLERABLE to Me!!...I
found myself cursing myself for being late because I wanted
to hear Maha/Rawat's FULL explanation/Deceit and the Church
Lady who had called me to tell me about the video made sure
to tell me that it was a special 'ONE Time Event'....The
Video was segmented..and at the End of the segment Msr.
Nouri came on...and very glibly explained what MahaRawat
just had said and then briefly a page of bulleted writing
came on the screen to spell it out for those of us..who may
need to READ the Party line..to memorize it...
I found this all Disgusting!!!..Words fail me in
Describing the Very Practiced..Polished yet Oily Doublespeak
that Nouri was spouting with a Straight Face (what does this
guy GET from it anyway?..Blondes, Cognac and Cuban Cigars??
)and the CLEAR Intend of it was for Maha/Rawat to
Brainwash/Condition us Again...To Believe/Spout that
Maharaji came to the West with a 'Simple Experience to
Share' and it was the MAHATMAS who took that and started
pranaming to Him and calling him the Lord...The Savior..All
Powerful etc..MAHARAJI THATS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!
As The Video went on Nouri explained that we were seeing
'another side' of Maharaji. What I Was Seeing was a Very
Smug..Condescending Flippant fat guy..Who was TELLING those
poor souls lined up against the Walls in Atlanta How it
Is...I Could Actually FEEL the Intimidation in the Air...As
he Condescendingly talked about how everything is by the
'Courtesy' of the 'Master'..and explained how it used to be
called the 'Grace' of the Master...(Obviously training us as
to the New Premie Doublespeak of The Day)..
Something in me was just boiling..it was all so
contrived..so unloving..so disrespectful of those in the
room. Yet I saw my own chronic attitude of forced reverence
and fear afflicting those sitting in the room. This feeling
has alway been running like a underground river beneath the
Bliss and Adoration of my personal Premiedom and apparently
theirs also.
It was then that Maharaji somehow transformed right
before my eyes...to the Liar..I now know him to be. The
Video cut to a response Maha/Rawat was giving to a woman who
apparently had the audacity to bring up the subject that he
once claimed to be the 'Lord of the Universe' (the actual
question was edited out..Im sure to spare us the full
intensity of his deceit). His reply was given in a
patronizing manner with MahaRawat with a straight face and
almost completely covering over his distain, responded that
(and i forgot the exact wording) WE had gone overboard and
we should have just told everybody that Maharaji was a guy
'we loved to Death'..EXCUSE ME MAHARAJI?...Wasnt it YOU that
had us sing to you every night 'Our Lords the SUPERIOR POWER
IN PERSON??..Wasnt it You ..who on every inside flap of YOUR
Proganda Rag 'And it is Divine' signed your name to a
statement that there is 'Never a time when THE LORD OF ALL
CREATION doesnt Manifest in a Human Body'.....
Well I didnt know it at the time but my former 'Lord and
Savior' had just delivered the 'Coup de Gras' in severing my
devotion to the Sick Belief System I had been merged with
for the last 28 years. I sat through the rest of the
Video..my heart pounding and my head racing. I then quickly
exited the event went home and quickly distracted myself by
either turning my TV or Computer on and focusing on other
things until the feeling of Betrayal had passed.
Days passed. I didnt sit down to meditate (unusual for
me). I could feel myself palpably upset with MahaRawat for
his Deceits..yet not having anything to deprogram me from
the overriding belief that he WAS the Lord and I
wasnt...therefore even though he lied to me and disrespected
me by his lies...somehow HE was right and I was Wrong. Even
So..I was Angry at him for putting me in the position of
having to try to devote myself to someone who would lie to
me like that...Weeks passed...I didnt think much about
this..but neither did I meditate ..or watch any of the
Maha/Rawat Videos on my Shelf...Then..one night...almost
unconciously...I was on my Computer..and typed in the Word
Maharaji in a Search Engine. Rawat had conveniently made
numerous website that spouted his propaganda and got them up
front on the Search engines.(Im now SURE that this is a
conscious Strategy on his/Ev's Part to keep people like me
from FINDING what I found.)
What I Found is EX-PREMIE.ORG...God Bless You,
Forever!!!...For the Next Days even weeks..I found myself
Devouring the Pages and Posts of Mischler, Dettmers, Donners
et Al...And as I Digested the Material, I FINALLY had the
pieces of the Puzzle that had been missing, LO these MANY
YEARS...I had the information to Deprogram myself ..from a
belief ..that absent this website..I might have carried with
me to My Grave...so THANK YOU AGAIN....those of you who have
put up and supported this information....I am Grateful to
You...your Courage and your HONESTY...in truthfully
portraying and exposing the one who apparently so sadly is
lacking in those qualities...
So BDTD, just thought you might be interested in hearing
how that video effected another fellow formerly deluded
traveler..Thanks for Listening...RichMandrake
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