Abi -:- Service and compensation: Some questions -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:18:00 (GMT)

__ janet -:- three answers to your Q's -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 04:36:08 (GMT)

__ __ Alan Fenstermacher -:- three answers to your Q's -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- we lost our jobs - read - livelihood -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:08:07 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- premie electrocuted while doing service -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:03:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- premie electrocuted while doing service -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:51:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ sean -:- premie electrocuted while doing service -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:14:56 (GMT)

__ donner -:- Service and compensation: Some questions -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- Michael Dettmers can you help? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:31:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Michael Dettmers can you help? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- PS -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:35:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- thanks -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:15:39 (GMT)

__ Babs -:- Is M Judgmentproof? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:10:49 (GMT)

__ __ Joy -:- Is M Judgmentproof? -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:35:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- You've given a good example of the flip side ... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:43:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Lawsuit talk -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:51:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Lawsuit talk -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:40:31 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Is M Judgment proof? -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 07:18:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Agree -- lawsuits are not a cure-all -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:53:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Francesca and Marianne -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:13:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for the kind thoughts -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:46:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks for the kind thoughts -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:23:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You're the second one who has recommended ... -:- Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:53:29 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Not totally, I'm sure -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:24 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- 'Rawats private property is theft' Abi:)) -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:41:54 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Service and compensation: Some questions -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:38:14 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Service and compensation: Some questions
Message:

Hi,
I was distressed to hear that a premie at Amaroo had a breakdown while doing service out there and it made me think about the whole issue of service. I know that in order to do service at Amaroo one has to sign a ten page confidentiality paper. Nothing which happens out there must be discussed.

What is someone had an accident doing service which had a short-term or long-term impact on their ability to work? How would Elan Vital deal with this? What sort of compensation would they be given? Would the ten page confidentiality paper they have to sign prohibit them from speaking out about this?

As far as I know there is no workers compensation for premies doing service. It is free labour and as far as I know there is no contract entered into which protects them. Is this true?

I know of a premie who was doing service many years ago and a wall fell on him crushing most of the bones in his body. He has been in chronic pain ever since. I know of another premie who damaged his back doing service at an Indian ashram and has suffered ever since. These premies have to pay their medical bills for injuries done while doing service. I'm sure there must be many other examples. I'd like to here about them.

Then there is the emotional harm experienced by being over-worked and treated with disrespect while doing service. And what about women doing service who are subjected to sexual abuse and offensive sexist remarks?

It seems to me that if Elan Vital honestly cared about the people who work for them for free then it would go out of its way to compensate those who have been harmed while doing service. Unless of course Elan Vital cares nothing for premies and is only interested in exploiting their labour. Serfs have no rights in a feudal system.

A spectre is haunting Elan Vital - the spectre of EPOism.
Rawats private property is theft.
Premies have nothing to lose but their chains.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 04:36:08 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: three answers to your Q's
Message:

other people I knew of who suffered serious acidents while doing service:
in the Kittredge building lobby, while premie carpenters were redecorating the entry, there were two horrendous accidents involving the elevator, in which two different brothers waited for the doors to open in the lobby so they could move materials into the car, and each tme, the doors opened but the car was not there, and they fell into the open shaft. One of them touched the cable that fed the power to the car and was hideously electrocuted from the tips of his fingers that grasped the cable, all the way to his feet, which were still touching the threshold when he fell in and carried the current to ground.He lived to tell about it in 401 later. He as in a coma for many days in the burn unit. The other brother--Jack, I think, was his name, did not get burned or a shock but he fell to the bottom of the shaft and got hurt quite a bit.

your raising this issue, and the replies so far, make me think, among other things, that I never signed no steenkin paper, releasing any part of Maharaji's domain from liability! I never took the ashram vows, but i did service anywhere i was asked to. I worked in the Alive Kitchen and we had one guy accidentally get his hand pulled into the automatic vegetable chopper--that was no small thing. i ran the Shelter after Amherst because I was asked to, and damn straight if anything had happened to me, I would have been wide open to sue.
These idiots don't have the business sense to take out an insurance policy for their workers, and use some of that obscene income of Maharaji's, to pay the premiums, to take care of premies who do service at places like Amaroo or DECA or La Tierra Del Amor, and head off the situation before it happens. It's like becoming a mail order bride for some skinflint lovelorn millionaire, and not hashing out a prenuptial agreement, so that if he dies or divorces, you discover you get nothing!
I suppose ever since the power 80's, tho, all the affluent, worldly PWK's probably have their own insurance policies, which they pay for with their own incomes.
my, how the mighty have fallen. my, how the petty have risen.
if EV and MJ have the alacrity to read this, let us hope for humanitarian reasons, if not cynical ones, that they have the presence of mind to go take out such a policy before someone files a wrongful death suit.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:28 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: alan@woodcon.com
To: janet
Subject: three answers to your Q's
Message:

I was in the Denver ashram doing construction work in and around the Kittregde building and I don't remember that (not that it it didn't happen, just that I don't remember it).

We did a lot of crazy things like loading materials on top of the elevators to get it upstairs and I remember working in the shaft while the elevators were in use. I still have my elevator key for opening the doors from the outside when the cab isn't there. Do you remember the name of the person who got hurt?

When we demoed the 6th floor and moved materials up to the 6th floor we used a winch or by hand and there were a few times the material 'got away' about 3-4 floors in the air. I scraped a lot of asbestos off of walls and ceiling there. The only time I wasn't in Denver was about 3 months in 73 I was in Houston and in 75 I was in Orlando (Kissimmee) for about 3 months.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: we lost our jobs - read - livelihood
Message:

For six months probabion due to being lead on stage production for the Tucson 'festival' god how it makes me sneer to call it a festival.
Having willingly accepted responsibility for what happened at the convention center stage tech wise was admittedly stupid beyond belief but it was part of the job.
Some idiots destroyed an opera curtain - those things are expensive. Lights were broken, the whole place was a mess no production before that I know of resulted in that much UNPAID or UNCOVERED liability.
Of coursse my ex hubbie was so fanatical about M his mouthing off to the administrators didn't help I admit that. But still, M should have covered the costs and we should not have lost the income. lots of money.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:03:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: premie electrocuted while doing service
Message:

Janet,

that is a really awful story about the premie who was electrocuted when he was doing service. Terrible. Did he stay with the cult? Did the cult help him get better at all?

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:51:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: premie electrocuted while doing service
Message:

since it happened in denver, i presume they took him to denver general, which is a public hospital that must treat anyone brought in.
when he told his story in 401 later, he said just an instant before felt the current come ripping down his arm, he felt Holy Name close around him and seal him off from the pain to come. said the entire time they later told him he was in a coma, he was away in the Light, playing like a baby on the lap of maharaji...
his flesh crawled like melted plastic. he showed us the scars. his arm looked like someone had spread his flesh around like frosting on a cake. all the while he told the story, his eyes were blasting full of light like diamonds, seeing somewhere faraway.

i do believe he said premies came to visit him in the hospital. maharaji might have even gone once. that part i am not solid on tho.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 17:14:56 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: premie electrocuted while doing service
Message:

Sounds like the same premie that I heard in Denver. As I recall He said it happened in Philly at a big hotel there.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:22:27 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Service and compensation: Some questions
Message:

good questions and some good points...worth exploring..i'll bet michael dettmers has considered this issue about exploitation before...protection against

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:31:31 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Michael Dettmers can you help?
Message:

with these questions. I'd really appreciate it.

with respect,

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:15 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Abi
Subject: Michael Dettmers can you help?
Message:

Abi,

Thanks for your heartfelt, sincere, and important questions. I don’t pretend to have all of the answers but I will do my best to share what I know or think. Please bear in mind, however, that I have been out of the cult for well over a decade. I’ve never been to Amaroo for example, and don’t know anything about the ten-page confidentiality agreement other that what I have read on the Forum.

Certainly, Élan Vital is legally required to provide workers compensation for all of its employees. It is my understanding that such coverage doesn’t extend to volunteers. If, however, people doing service are signing confidentiality agreements, it might be implied in a court of law that their activities are being sufficiently directed and controlled by the organizing entity that a de facto employment condition exists, in which case they may be entitled to workers compensation. I am, of course, speaking about how such matters are viewed under US law. I don’t know if similar provisions exist in Australia and elsewhere.

Whether Maharaji and/or Élan Vital can be held legally responsible for injuries incurred while doing service can only be determined after examining the circumstances and facts on a case-by-case basis. I’m sure that Maharaji’s and Élan Vital’s lawyers are doing everything they can to anticipate and prevent such lawsuits from occurring.

Also, members of the cult might find it difficult or unthinkable to bring an action against Elan Vital and/or Maharaji if they are still believers. Their own feelings of betrayal and the peer pressure from other cult members represent powerful forces against taking such an action. If they are fortunate enough to get out of the cult, it may be too late to bring an action in some, but certainly not all, situations.

When Susan and I wrote to Maharaji last July to inform him about Jagdeo, he assigned Marcia Leitner, a member of Élan Vital’s Board of Directors, to respond to our letters. Marcia is a lawyer who specializes in human resource issues. During our conversation, she told me that she conducted courses about sexual harassment in the workplace with all employees of Élan Vital including all instructors. I don’t know if those courses were limited to Élan Vital in the USA, or if they were conducted worldwide.

To me, you get to the heart of the matter when you say, “It seems to me that if Elan Vital honestly cared about the people who work for them for free then it would go out of its way to compensate those who have been harmed while doing service.“ That is exactly what should happen. Unfortunately, 'doing the right thing' has not been one of Maharaji's or Elan Vital's strong points.

Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:35:41 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: PS
Message:

Dear Michael,
I forgot to thank you for helping us with the Jagdeo issue. You have great integrity. I respect that.

Best wishes

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 06:15:39 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: thanks
Message:

Dear Michael,
thanks for clarifying all of that. Your point about the confidentiality papers signalling a defacto workers contract is interesting. I'm sure they've covered themselves a great deal. Still, it would be interesting to read the papers. I noticed that the Amaroo registration papers made a legal point of not taking responsiblity for any injuries or 'loss of enjoyment' (?!) experienced when attending the site.

Also a good point about premies not understanding that they have any rights at all if they are injured. I seem to recall some premies dismissing injuries as karmic lessons from M. And certianly janets description of the premie who got electrocuted fits in with that.

I guess EV is a very slick 21stC multi-national empire now and there are very few chinks in the corporate armour. Telling truth to power is a complex thing.

Thanks

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 03:10:49 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Abi
Subject: Is M Judgmentproof?
Message:

I have a vague recollection of signing some papers back in '73 @ IHQ, prepared by some premie attorneys also working @ IHQ, waiving my rights and holding Maharaj Ji blameless in case of basically anything. Does anybody else remember signing anything like that? (M's donner, Dettmers, Richard, Joy?)

I remember thinking how stupid and unnecessary it was at the time, as if any of us would ever want anything at all from him other than more opportunities for blissful service. In retrospect, however, I'm sorely afraid that his gigantic ass is well covered - at least from lawsuits by former ashram premies - thanks to the foresight of those of us who managed to get law degrees BEFORE signing our lives away...

Any comments, Marianne? Are you thinking along these lines?

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Is M Judgmentproof?
Message:

Hi Babs. I certainliy don't remember signing anything like that. But then again, it was so long ago (28 years) that I probably just can't remember.

Just after I got out of the cult and went to visit my friend who had been injured at DECA by the chemicals she was working with unprotected in the cockpit of that obscene 707, I encouraged her strongly to try and file a workers' comensation lawsuit against DECA, but she wasn't interested in doing this. (I was working for a workers' comp. insurance defence law firm at the time, so saw people getting awards for much lesser injuries all the time.) I'm not sure what her motivations were for not wanting to do it, but they probably were private to her. Sometimes when you're in an injured position, you're not in the mood for a legal fight, you want to employ all your available energy towards healing, and I can only assume that's where she was at with it all. I, personally, would've sued the [Krishna] pants off him straightaway if it had been me, but then maybe I would've been too dazed and confused by it all as well. I agree with Katie and Frannie that lawsuits are emotionally harrowing and not the easiest things to go through, particularly when you're down and out.

I believe the idea of a class action lawsuit has been discussed here many times. I used to ask Joe about it a lot, and he used to rattle off reasons why it'd be a waste of time. I just love the idea of it, I'm a very litigious person, if only for the publicity value alone. Too bad we can't conjure up something, think of the newspaper articles it would generate. I would love to sue Prem Pal Singh Rawat (aka Guru Maharaj Ji aka Lord of the Universe) for brainwashing me into giving up nine years of wages, plus associated pension and social security income plus my gold bracelets (family heirlooms), plus exposing me to toxic chemicals in the course of said service (photographic chemicals in the typesetting room) for a number of years, when my immune system was no doubt compromised due to lack of sleep, improper nutrition and the stress of communal living/sleeping arrangements, sleep deprivation due to early morning arti wakeup calls etc. Ooh, it'd be so fun to put all that down in a lawsuit!

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:43:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: You've given a good example of the flip side ...
Message:

of lawsuits. If you are not majorly emotionally involved in whether you win or lose, and seeing the negative publicity would be worth it all, indeed somewhat the point of it all, under some circumstances, a lawsuit could be fun, I suppose.

The only thing I'd worry about for anyone is that Pandora's box would open up once you got in the ring. I remember when some art students were doing a pugilistic performance piece and ended up in a real boxing match when they started to hurt each other. In other words, it got ugly, and emotions came out that they didn't know were there.

And then again, maybe he'll meet his very own Paula Jones!

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 09:51:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca, Joy, et al.
Subject: Lawsuit talk
Message:

Anyone seriously contemplating suing Captain Rawat and company ought to do it offline. This thread of course is only addressing the theoretical possibility or viability of such a suit. Sorry to get all technical here, but I am sure you understand my motivation. I am in complete agreement with the sentiments you all have expressed.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:40:31 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Lawsuit talk
Message:

No, I don't think I realistically would do it, at this point. I'm just fantasizing. But I sure would like to see somebody take it on, and would certainly be there to back them up 100% with emotional support.

As Francesca says, there is that really intense emotional side of a lawsuit, which puts you through the ringer and makes it almost not worthwhile. When I became chemically sensitive thanks to dailiy exposure to laser printer and photocopier toner in my law firm in a 'sick building' there were quite a few people who wanted me to file a workers' comp suit against my employer, since I worked for the #1 law firm in the area and they represented Boeing against their chemically injured workers, hence were considered the 'bad guy'. My doctor was just itching to take these people on in a legal fight, with me as the guinea pig in the middle. I didn't want any part of it, I felt like a little ant which would've gotten stomped on and ground to dust immediately by the giant big-bucks law firm, and was too emotionally and physically fragile to put myself through that kind of thing for the sake of proving a point, no matter how important of a point. So yes, I do understand this aspect of it well.

But maybe a bunch of people could do a class action suit against him or something, for the publicity value? That way it wouldn't be just one person who'd have to be the focus. Still fantasizing, it's just always something I'd like to see done to Rawat. How else can one redress injustice in a civilized society?

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 07:18:19 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Is M Judgment proof?
Message:

I don't think that M is judgment proof.

And yes, I think about these issues quite a bit. Whether someone has the right to sue, or ought to sue, is something that has to be decided on an individual basis, just as Michael Dettmers said.
I don't think lawsuits are the cure all for what ails people. Just because someone has a cause of action doesn't necessarily mean they should sue.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 01:53:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Agree -- lawsuits are not a cure-all
Message:

Totally agree that having a cause of action is only part of the equation. During my brief tenure in insurance defense and then in torts from the plaintiff side, I saw firsthand what a toll it took on our clients. Wrongful deaths were especially painful, as can be expected.

Lawsuits are not always about healing. It really is a case-by-case basis for sure. I'll never forget what one of our partners said in the insurance defense firm -- something to the effect that people come to the law looking for justice. And all they get is the law. It's hard to explain that to the clients.

love, f

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 02:13:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks, Francesca and Marianne
Message:

I really dislike lawsuits after having been involved in one because of my father's death. This was a malpractice lawsuit which we WON, but it was horrible. I am just thankful that I only had to listen to the summation, not the testimony, because I was a potential witness. Also, it took five years to bring the case to trial - which meant lack of closure for those years.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from bringing a case if they really feel they want to - just asking that people educate themselves as to what that would involve. Also, I think there are a few people who have posted here who I think have grounds that would lead to either a successful lawsuit or an quick out-of-court settlement (although I'm not sure they could accept the terms of a settlement).

Francesca, hope you are all right, by the way - what you are going through is so difficult.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 04:46:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Thanks for the kind thoughts
Message:

Emotions are a bit of a rollercoaster, as you can imagine. I'm trying not to use the situation of a terminal illness in the family as an excuse to be negative or overdo it. Early grieving is fine, but chanelling it into some bullsh*t or other is not.

Boy do I get angry easy though.

LOVE, f

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:23:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks for the kind thoughts
Message:

I remember getting real impatient with what I saw as b.s. when I was going through the same thing. It was sort of like I got down to a place where I could see what was REALLY important. I can't live like that all the time though - too intense.

You are probably familiar with Stephen Levine's work, but just in case you are not, his book 'Who Dies?' was very helpful to me and my sister when we were in that situation.

Love to you -
Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 01, 2001 at 16:53:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: You're the second one who has recommended ...
Message:

that book. That will be my next one -- since I'm now reading Facing Death and Finding Hope by Christine Longaker. Before that, Kubler-Ross' book On Death and Dying (I think) has been invaluable. It is making the rounds in my family.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 05:52:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Not totally, I'm sure
Message:

Years ago, when I was first becoming a paralegal I worked with an attorney that did some tort work. (God I hated it -- too much discovery.) He told me that agreements where you sign away your right to make claims re accidents and injuries are not bulletproof. His exact comment was, 'there's ways to get around those.' Situations can arise in which, under tort (personal injury) law, it could be considered unconscionable to hold someone to such an agreement.

Usually it would have to do with the degree negligence on one side, and the extent of the injuries on the other. And would be extremely fact-driven, i.e. general principles would apply but it would largely rely on the exact set of circumstances. One of which would be the exact terms of the agreement.

Hope that helps, and if there's a tort lawyer in the house, jump in.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:41:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: 'Rawats private property is theft' Abi:))
Message:

Your post deserves a good think....we have all been slaves of Prem pal singh Rawat. Some have suffered .....and I've mentioned it before that their have been many premie suicides( he's not responsible for ALL those suicides but SOME....no doubt about it .....his mind control/domination methods played a large part in some lost, trusting , fucked up people to exit this life......and they are not even a statistic......DLM/EV paid them no heed.....they were just bongos.

Best Wishes

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 02:38:14 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Service and compensation: Some questions
Message:

Hi Abi,

That was one good post and beautifully written, too.

I can't fathom calculating the damage done to premies. But, I bet lawyers can:)))))

That's all I can say....
Love,
Cynthia

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