Gregg -:- The Empty-Calorie Satguru -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 13:11:25 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Erika's Says He's the BEST -- care to comment?????? -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 19:45:37 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Erika's Metaphor... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:02:53 (EST)

__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Erika's Says He's the BEST -- care to comment? -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 11:28:36 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- Where is the teaching ??????? -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 04:31:46 (EST)

__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Excellent points, Brian, hear here -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 07:07:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Forget Jesus -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:59:30 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Turning the other cheek -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:44:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Nope, no plans to forget Jesus -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:43:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- That's your right... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:57:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Jesus was nuts (and that's being optimistic) -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:06:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Jesus was nuts (and that's being optimistic) -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:12:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:54:30 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- excuse me nit-picking -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:43:01 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- Just like the line in the song -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 03:12:56 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- and premies don't see revisionism? -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 03:48:51 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Excellent Obsevation Gregg -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:17:35 (EST)

__ Francesca :) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM!!!** -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:44:53 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Dildo Rimpoche's an idiot -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:33:24 (EST)

__ __ c -:- Yeah - an idiot. And M's a MASTER! (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:43:36 (EST)

__ Carl -:- Thank you for this post! -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:31:29 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- Seconded! -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:32:54 (EST)

__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Thirded! The Emotion is Passed -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 00:09:40 (EST)

__ JHB -:- M: A Poor Meditation Teacher -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 13:32:43 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- Re: M: A PISS-Poor Meditation Teacher -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:10:39 (EST)

__ __ __ WAIT AND SEE -:- Re: M: A PISS-Poor Meditation Teacher -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 00:08:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- What video is that? [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:25:49 (EST)

__ __ __ Lesley -:- Mr Rawat, an inept and ignorant meditation teacher -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 16:20:13 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- My First Grade Teacher... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:52:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Re: My First Grade Teacher... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 16:30:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I don't post for sympathy... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:20:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- she sounds like a person with discrimination -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 16:26:30 (EST)

__ __ __ Gregg -:- You're one funny dude, cq. (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:11:28 (EST)

Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 13:11:25 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: The Empty-Calorie Satguru
Message:

When Prem Pal Rawat was just a little tyke of a Guru, he used to explain the concept of a Master to Westerners a bit uncomfortable with the concept in the following manner:

'If you want to learn math, you go to a math master' (I am quoting inaccurately from memory here, but you get the idea. Part of the disingenuousness is the borrowing of the British usage of 'master' for 'teacher.') If you want to learn tennis, you go to a tennis master. So if you want to learn about perfection, you go to a Perfect Master, one who has mastered perfection.'

So here's the question I would ask open-minded premies (an oxymoron, by definition): does Maharaji speak as one who has mastered meditation? Does he show any evidence of having spent any time on the meditation cushion? Or, if he doesn't need to actually 'meditate,' being the Master and all that, does he often give out useful advice on meditation to help his students through the process?

I mean, forget about all the dirt on the EPO site. Pretend that ex-premies made up all this stuff about his drinking, his womanizing, his abusive tirades and so forth. Pretend that he never said he was Lord of the Universe. Pretend that acid-addled sari-lovers were the creators of the cult once known as Divine Light Mission, and things are all better now.

Just ask yourself this question: Is Maharaji, judging by his words alone, a competent teacher of meditation?

Here are some instructions from a recently dead Buddhist teacher to contrast with the meandering metaphors of Maha: (with apologies to y'all anti-breath fetishers out there)

Maha Ati

by H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

'The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and openness to all situations and emotions, and to all people, experiencing everything totally without mental reservations and blockages, so that one never withdraws or centralizes into oneself.

'When performing the meditation practice one should develop the feeling of opening oneself completely to the whole universe with absolute simplicity and nakedness of mind, ridding oneself of all protecting barriers.

'Don't mentally split into two when meditating, one part of the mind watching the other like a cat watching a mouse.

'There should be no feeling of striving to reach some exalted goal or higher state; this simply produces something conditional or artificial that will act as an obstruction to the free flow of the mind. One should never think of oneself as 'sinful' or worthless, but as naturally pure and perfect, lacking nothing.

'When performing meditation practice one should think of it as just a natural function of everyday living, like eating or breathing, not as a special, formal event to be undertaken with great seriousness and solemnity. One must realize that to meditate is to pass beyond effort, beyond practice, beyond aims and goals, and beyond the dualism of bondage and liberation.

'Meditation is always perfect, so there is no need to correct anything. Since everything that arises is simply the play of the mind, there are no 'bad' meditation sessions and no need to judge thoughts as good or evil. Therefore, one should not sit down to meditate with various hopes or fears about the outcome; one just does it, with no self-conscious feeling of 'I am meditating,' and without attempting to control or force the mind, and without trying to become peaceful.

'If one finds that one is going astray in any of these ways, one should stop meditating and simply rest and relax for a while before resuming.

'If, either during or after meditation, one has experiences that one interprets as results, they should not be made into anything special; recognize that they are just phenomena and simply observe them. Above all, do not attempt to recreate them as this opposes the natural spontaneity of the mind.

'Simply plunge straight into meditation at this very moment with your whole mind, and be free from hesitation, boredom, or excitement.

'When meditating it is traditional and best, if possible, to sit cross-legged with the back erect but not rigid. However, it is most important to feel comfortable, so it is better to sit in a chair if sitting cross-legged is painful.

'Do not make the mistake of deliberately trying to force these experiences to recur, for to do so is to betray the naturalness and spontaneity of reality .'

Is there anything in the literature of EV to compare with these words? And i don't mean to specifically compare Prem Pal with Dilgo. You could find similar meditation instructions by the thousands in any New Age bookstore. Every meditation teacher has something to say about how to meditate.

Is there any Guru out there who has less to say about how to meditate than Maharaji? I can't think of one.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 19:45:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Erika's Says He's the BEST -- care to comment??????
Message:

Gregg and everyone:

Below is a cult apologist (Erika Andersen) view of why one needs a Master, particularly Maharaji. This used to be on her 'Please Consider This' website until it bit the dust. If you can once again endure Erika's simplistic, painful, metaphors (this one was SO bad that she asked permission), this is her explanation for why Maharaji is such a great teacher/master.

Care to Comment?

Who Needs A Teacher??

A number of Maharaji's critics, I find, don't have a problem with Knowledge itself; many of them note that they still practice it and derive benefit from doing so. Their problem, they say, is with the way Maharaji has 'brainwashed' his students into thinking that he has anything to do with the process. They encourage his students to free themselves from their 'dependence' on him, claiming that they don't need him in order to experience Knowledge.

Permit me a metaphor, if you will. Let's say you have always wanted to sing, but don't know if you can. Then you meet a master vocal coach who sees your potential and coaxes it out of you; she teaches you the basics of vocal production and shows you that you actually have a beautiful voice.

What would you do then? Say thanks after that first, revelatory lesson and be on your way? Or would you choose to study with her for as long as she cared to teach you taking advantage of her mastery in order to learn how to use your gift?

Your decision would depend, in large part, on how much you valued your ability to sing, and how much you wanted to develop your talent. If you just wanted to sing in the shower, you probably wouldn't see much benefit in having a teacher. But if you really wanted to take full advantage of your natural talent to become an excellent singer you probably would jump at the chance to learn from that teacher.

Your decision, of course, would also depend on whether or not you trusted the teacher. If you believed she had just somehow stumbled into showing you your gift, but was incapable of developing it in you, odds are you wouldn't want to continue the student/teacher relationship with her.

Ultimately, your decision about whether to work with the teacher would depend on whether or not you wanted to be a student. Some people, I know, want to achieve their goals on their own, without help from anyone else. For these people, receiving guidance from a teacher feels unnecessary, disempowering, or overly constraining.

Let's say, though, that you do want to improve your singing, you do trust the teacher, and you do feel comfortable being in the role of student. What, then, can a good teacher offer?

Part of my work as a management consultant involves helping people learn. In this capacity, I've seen that learning to do something new involves cycling through the following phases: 1) Awareness; 2) Motivation; 3) Skills; and 4) New Behaviors. And it's not just a one-time cycle. Ongoing learning is an ever-deepening spiral of these four phases. A really great teacher helps you keep moving through these phases as deeply as you want to go.

Staying with our singing metaphor, here's what those four phases of learning might look like. Once your natural gift has been uncovered, your teacher helps keep you aware of that gift. She reminds you what you're capable of, so the awareness of your potential doesn't get lost in the day-to-day, and so you don't lose heart. Next, she sparks your motivation by reminding you how wonderful it feels to sing, having you listen to beautiful singing (perhaps her own singing), or showing you how your effort is paying off by pointing out improvements. Then, she offers new skills: tips, guidelines, tools and support for developing your abilities. Finally, she provides low-risk opportunities in the learning environment to practice these new behaviors, to make sure they're firmly established.

And the next lesson? The same but deeper: your new behaviors will have yielded a heightened awareness and motivation, upon which your teacher will help you build by offering additional skills, producing more new behaviors that is, even more beautiful singing. And so on. That's why people who sing at the Met still have vocal coaches: they recognize that the process of learning if you have a capable teacher is infinite.

So my response to those who say I don't need Maharaji is this: you're right. In the very strictest sense of the word, I don't 'need' him. I've already been shown the gift of Knowledge, and theoretically I could continue, on my own, to practice it for the rest of my life. That, however, seems to me a less sure and more difficult road to follow. As in our singing example, I do want to take full advantage of the gift, I do trust Maharaji to help me, and I am willing to be a student. I want to explore as deeply as possible the beauty I've been shown, and I feel confident that continuing to embrace Maharaji as my teacher will help me do that far better than I could on my own.

For almost thirty years, Maharaji has consistently reminded me that joy exists within me (awareness); inspired me to take advantage of it (motivation); provided tools, guidelines and tips for practicing (skills); and offered focused opportunities to try them out (new behaviors). He is, in my experience, a master teacher the best teacher by far, of any kind, I've ever had.

And then there is another, equally important reason that I am Maharaji's student, one more subtle yet equally powerful. Beyond the logic (I want to learn, he wants to teach, I trust him to do so), there is the relationship that has grown between us over the years. When someone really helps you, in any way, the natural impulse is to feel grateful. Gratitude, freely offered, is a delight to both giver and receiver: I feel enormous gratitude to Maharaji. And when two people work together as student and teacher, especially over a long period of time, a deep affection and appreciation develops in each for the other. My relationship with Maharaji, and the joy and satisfaction it brings, has become for me an intrinsic part of the process of Knowledge.

In the final analysis, whether or not I 'need' Maharaji in some absolute sense is irrelevant to me. Because I value the gift he showed me, because I trust him to teach, because I am willing to learn and because of the love I have for him and he for me. I continue to accept his offer to be my teacher. From my point of view, my decision has paid tremendous dividends: I've found his help, and his presence in my life, inexpressibly valuable.

Erika Andersen
October 07, 2001

What is missing from this picture? Right, what does M have to do with it, besides 'reminding' her, I guess, to breathe?

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:02:53 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Erika's Metaphor...
Message:

Hi Joe, I'll give it a try:

Erika is in bold:

Permit me a metaphor, if you will. Let's say you have always wanted to sing, but don't know if you can. Then you meet a master vocal coach who sees your potential and coaxes it out of you; she teaches you the basics of vocal production and shows you that you actually have a beautiful voice.

There is something wrong with this metaphor. First, I don't know anyone with a gifted voice who aleady doesn't know it. Anyone can take singing lessons or hire a master vocal coach. A vocal coach cannot ''coax'' a gift. The gift of vocal cords, a sense of music or natural talent is a random thing, probably part genetic, part environmental, because not everyone has the ability to sing beautifully or have perfect pitch. A vocal coach can do nothing but teach techniques which someone can then practice, sometimes with dreadful results. Those vocal cords and the ability to produce human sounds from a human instrument has got to be random. It's not universal. Same with maharaji and knowledge.

What would you do then? Say thanks after that first, revelatory lesson and be on your way? Or would you choose to study with her for as long as she cared to teach you taking advantage of her mastery in order to learn how to use your gift?

It depends on what the vocal coach tells you about your voice. First of all, the master vocal coach is charging you money for his/her ability to teach. If that coach is a good one, then you pay and say thank you, and the coach says thank you in return. Quite different from m. That vocal coach makes an assessment of the singer i.e., does this student have a real talent that begs development or does this person just like to sing and wants to learn some techniques to help him/her gain some control over their diaphram and gain ability to vocalize?

Your decision would depend, in large part, on how much you valued your ability to sing, and how much you wanted to develop your talent. If you just wanted to sing in the shower, you probably wouldn't see much benefit in having a teacher. But if you really wanted to take full advantage of your natural talent to become an excellent singer you probably would jump at the chance to learn from that teacher.

Wrong again. This assumes that everyone has a natural talent to sing. It's simply not true. I think everyone can 'sing,' but there are those individuals who have what is called a so-called ''gift.'' It is a genetically inherited set of vocal cords, and perhaps having lived in an environment where singing and listening to music has developed a true love for music. The gifted/trained singer send chills up the spine of the listener and there are those who simply like to sing. Big difference.

Your decision, of course, would also depend on whether or not you trusted the teacher. If you believed she had just somehow stumbled into showing you your gift, but was incapable of developing it in you, odds are you wouldn't want to continue the student/teacher relationship with her.

Again, this assumes that everyone has ''the gift of singing.'' The trust part in this metaphor is incorrect. If you find a lousy vocal coach you fire them. You don't shower them with money because they falsely tell you you have a gift. There is a small need for trust. When one searches for a vocal coach it's neccessary to know that person has credentials to even be teaching you. Again, the vocal coach, if qualified, is charging you for the classes.

Okay, when I was nineteen I decided it time to find a vocal coach. I knew of one very excellent teacher, actually a husband and wife team. The husband was the vocal coach, the wife played the piano, but also had a beautiful voice, as did their daughter--that's how I knew them, through their daughter in school.

I thought I had a pretty good voice because it's the one thing I always did from early childhood. People always said, Cynthia, you have a gift. So I made an appointment--this was about the time I left home and was on my own and free to make my own decisions. They said, bring some sheet music of something you want to sing. I brought the sheet music from the musical 'West Side Story'' and planned to sing ''I Feel Pretty,' which is much more difficult than I thought.

So, the wife started playing from the sheet music and I started singing. The vocal coach listened through the entire piece. Then there was silence. I was terrified. The vocal coach said to me, well, the thing is this: ''Some people have a natural gift and some people just like to sing. You sing as if I have been teaching you for two years--you need to learn technique, but you have a beautiful voice. Some people walk in here and want to learn how to have a gift and they don't have it and I can't give it to them. I can only teach them techniques. They can come to me for twenty years and the only thing they will gain is technique, not talent, nor gift. You have a gift.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 11:28:36 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Erika's Says He's the BEST -- care to comment?
Message:

All of that would make sense if what M said had any substance to it. I am surprised and embarrassed to realize, that what I once listened to with such rapt attention and felt was so profound, now sounds like so much drivel.

Erika's own analogy works against her. A real teacher will bring you to deeper levels of understanding what he teaches. M's message -- if you can actually distill a message out of what he says, has been the same since day one. Not very enlightening, many times contradictory and most times repetitive.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 04:31:46 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Where is the teaching ???????
Message:

For that matter where is the love? Where is the guidance? Where is the the consistant reminder. You mean that part where he often tells us more than once to constantly remember our breath, how profound.

What sort of training on meditation has M has ever conducted with any of his students one that substantiated a real lesson of the subject matter that he has supposedly perfectly mastered?

I haven't heard of one yet, that fiasco in Atlanta was about how to get more people in the cult and berate those in attendance for not doing it right. What kind of guidance has he ever really really offered anyone? For Chrissake, he won't even let you ask him any questions.

What about this Love, if you call those emotionally charged blurtings out across a hall full of hundreds of others an honest expression of love you can keep it. And when m responds back at those events, I love you too, well shit, what would you expect him to say. Looking out over that crowd to him every head represents a dollar sign something that he obviously Loves very much.

Telling them that he loves them back is just protecting his best interests, he doesn't even know who he is talking to in many of those little emotional exchanges anyway, how can that be real love between two people.

Maybe Erika was privvy to a few warm fuzzy intimate little get togethers but she paid the price to be there, and it wasn't because she was the most devoted either. She paved the way to his heart and door with greenbacks.

This is what Erika says about teaching .....

I've seen that learning to do something new involves cycling through the following phases: 1) Awareness; 2) Motivation; 3) Skills; and 4) New Behaviors. And it's not just a one-time cycle. Ongoing learning is an ever-deepening spiral of these four phases. A really great teacher helps you keep moving through these phases as deeply as you want to go.

Teaching by Erika's desciption involves a lesson plan and instructions rendered by someone who assists you directly in learning the subject matter at hand. What we got with M's program clearly does not stack up to the slightest resemblence of student teacher relationship by her own accounting.

Can you imagine in the real world of learning where there would be a case of anyone paying ongoing tuition to someone who tells them to just go off and study by themselves. And that accompanied by a lesson plan with instructions like these: Come back and see me from time to time, but just don't ask questions and don't doubt that you are learning from me and remember to keep doing this for the rest of your life. It's a joke, and one that isn't funny.

Premies, if you are out there, get over it, magical thinking is not an honest and true expression of love, learning or guidance. There is nothing to be learned in the meditation techniques that you cannot find out for yourself.

If you want to learn something learn the lesson of self reliance and choose yourself to be your own teacher.

Get on with your lives, while you still have time, too much of life has passed already, the time has come to finally grow up.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 07:07:42 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Excellent points, Brian, hear here
Message:

You know, comparing M's buttsang's to Jesus's stuff, he comes up pretty empty, pretty shallow. 'By their fruits ye shall know them'. What kind of fruit has M gotten out of K? Not much that anybody else would want or would want to emulate, from what I can see. Jesus talked about loving your neighbor, turning the cheek, giving of yourself, etc. M said just the opposite. How many times did M say words to the effect of '(agressively) going for it, GRAB(!) for the gusto'. I definitely remember him saying: GRAB many times in the last several years. Which implies: COMPETING, pushing other out of your way, climbing over them to get the best places to sit, the choicest service, the most of his attention, etc. The essence of a philosophy of TAKING. Jesus was all about GIVING, not taking. Big difference.
If you don't walk the walk, you can't talk the talk. In spite of his efforts to hide his basic selfishness and self-absorbtion and his pretending to be some kind of great teacher, the bottom line is that whether you look at what he says or (worse) what he does, how he lives, the bottom line is that he is certainly no one I'd ever want to fashion my life after.

Thanks for good points, Brian.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:59:30 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Forget Jesus
Message:

Steve,
I think Jesus isn't someone you want to get mixed up with either(IMHO).
'Turn the other cheek'? I hate that, it is so weak and ineffective.(IMHO)

Maharaji is an imbecile, but 'go for the gusto' isn't the worst plan, as long as no one else is hurt in the process, that is.

Competition, like it or not is unavoidable(evolution?)look around you,
sports, contests, awards, etc.

Maharaji sends out a split message.
'The world is terrible, go hide/Go for the gusto'
What an idiot.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:44:56 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Turning the other cheek
Message:

Turning the other cheek allows for the possibility of reconciliation between you and your adversary, and is a good tactic in many conflicts. Of course, sometimes there's a real danger to yourself in a conflict and a more defensive strategy is required. Other times, the only defense is attack.

Wisdom is knowing which approach will lead to the desired result, which is the cessation of conflict.

John.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:43:47 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Nope, no plans to forget Jesus
Message:

You're entitled to your opinion, but I treasure wisdom (from Jesus - not from Christianity - just the man himself) that works wherever I find it. If it costs me nothing and helps put me in touch with my heart, what's the harm? I'm not particularly pushing Jesus or anything like that but occasionally I do enjoy drawing from his wisdom, that's all.

Happy exing, Marshall.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:57:52 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: That's your right...
Message:

There is this web site 'From Jesus to Christ', very interesting. I'll send it, but not now because I'm running out of time.It kind of shocked me at first but then I realized that Jesus wasn't the one who hid anything because for him everything was clear, divine or not as some people try to prove.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:06:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Jesus was nuts (and that's being optimistic)
Message:

Jesus was either God Incarnate, a fraud or deluded, just like M. Well the first option's obviously out. So that leaves fraud or delusion. I tend to think the latter based on the historical record, flimsy as it is. Okay, fine, then here's a guy who thinks he's the 'Messiah'. Sorry, Jesus, hate to tell you, there IS no Messiah. You're just another human being, dude. End of story.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:12:18 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Jesus was nuts (and that's being optimistic)
Message:

After I posted the 'Nope ..' post I realized that I needed to use more prudence about referencing such potentially hot-button words as: 'Jesus'. Many people of many religious faiths received K. Many of them never subscribed to any of the Christian varieties. So, for them, one who is considered to be the founder or spiritual leader of a faith or religion other than the one they grew up with likely means nothing special to them. One of the principals I'm trying to incorporate in my posts is to try to use language that will avoid upsetting such people, those raised under a religious heritage different than my own. So, to you Sulla, and especially to you, Jim, I apologize if you feel I insulted your own strongly-held religious beliefs. I certainly did not mean to. And I most DEFINITELY am NOT pushing any kind of religion.

I thought I had clarified things by saying that my only purpose in quoting or referencing 'that man' was that some of that things 'that man' said resonated with my own experiences of truth. That's all I was trying to say. Nothing more.

You know, I don't play favorites. If another supposedly spiritual teacher said something of value that also mirrored my own experience of truth, I certainly would have or will quote them also.

Also, you know, I wasn't around 2000 years ago. I wasn't there when 'that man' walked the earth so I don't know anything more about him than you do. All I do know about 'that man' is what I have read in certain books. But, I have experienced life and I (think I) have learned a thing or two about its deeper truths. One of the most important and fundamental lessons worth learning about life is that real, true, unconditional, impartial love is the most powerful thing that there is. It is so powerful that it has the capacity of overcoming all barriers and healing all divisions separating peoples. I have realized this totally. You can believe what you want to but nothing you can say will ever make me change that statement. There are other things I have learned, but this is by far the most important thing I have ever learned.

So, I hope you will understand the gist of what I'm saying here. Also, keep in mind that we are dealing with concepts here. Concepts are limited. Even if two people say they agree on the words used to express a concept, even so, there will likely be subtle differences of what that concept means to each of them that will differ from what it means to the other one.

One thing I try to do when reading posts is to listen with my heart as well as my head. I find that helps me to understand the gist or basic feeling of what the person is trying to say. It helps to stop me from going out on a tangent to take a person to task for something relatively minor or from applying an overly narrow interpretation to their post. It also supports their healing. Often I don't agree with everything someone says but I recognize that, as long as it is not a big deal, just the action of my hearing them out WITHOUT overly nitpicking them is performing the service of facilitating their healing, of helping them recover from M. Understand that M has really really hurt a bunch of people in a very bad way. Most of us are in far greater need of supportive nurturing by each other than we are of being excessively corrected.

There are two very very beautiful exes who used to post here recently but who have been absent for awhile. I strongly suspect that they just could not handle the unnecessary slings and arrows on F7 and probably said to themselves, to hell with F7 and exes.

Let's help each other. Let's try not to imitate or emulate M's contempt and hatred.

The Beatles said it best: 'All you need is Love, Love; Love is all you need.'

Peace, guys and I wish you continued happy exing.

Love,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:54:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Who
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:43:01 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: excuse me nit-picking
Message:

'If you want to learn math, you go to a math master.If you want to learn tennis, you go to a tennis master. So if you want to learn about perfection, you go to a Perfect Master, one who has mastered perfection.'

By prem's logic he should be called a Perfection Master.
A perfect master is master who is perfect. Which he IS saying these days( and never forget that purity of The Master).

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 03:12:56 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Just like the line in the song
Message:

Who is Guy Maharaji
Who is the master of prefection
That s the question you must ask,
The answer you must know

It went in on to talk about, watch who will be feeding all the people
and a whole lot of other ideological shit that never came to pass

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 03:48:51 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: and premies don't see revisionism?
Message:

talk about the blind leading the blind.

I've just watched some other recent videos (Nottingham 30th aniversary and THE training video.)

I just can't believe all the wanking going on(sorry there is no other word).

The revisionism is soooooooo clear.

Well premies , here we are again......saying nothing....just having a great big spiritual wank together.

pardon the rant

jethro

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:17:35 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Excellent Obsevation Gregg
Message:

Your points here stand alone as valid representation of the fraud and farce that is GMJ and his mission.

The simple and quite obvious arguement that M never taught us anything about the subject matter that he supposably is master of is quite revealing towards what he is really up to.

He is weaving a web of dependancy on him alone, setting himself up as an avatar, a savior of mankind with the real focus being on him alone. The meditation is just the bait and is secondary to the core of his real purpose which is to hook you into this notion that he is your salvation and that only by believing in him alone can one find happiness in this life.

A bhakti yoga guru and devotee relationship reeking of religious overtures ala christian salvation no less.

To that end he poses an even worse example of an avatar, a savior, as much he drops the ball as a useful master or teacher he really falls short in the role of an avatar.

Anyone who has spent any extended time around him in close proximity will tell you as much. That is, if they can get the ju ju beans out of their eyes and get honest, and several PAMS (premies around maharaji) here have already done just that.

This notion of savior and m's representation of it provokes a whole new inquiry and subject matter for another strong post.

You have given us much to think about with this simple but brilliant observation that makes it so exceedingly obvious that M never lived up to the role of teacher/master.

The only thing he excelled at was to give us ample lip service about the importance of just believing in him unconditionally with no questions or doubts.

Like Pat C stated below, and I concur; you Gregg, have taught me more about meditation in and through this one post of yours than I ever heard or learned from my 3 decade involvment with m and the cult.

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:44:53 (EST)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM!!!**
Message:

Thanks, Gregg!

Whether people that post here meditate or not, Maharaji poses himself as a master of meditation, and this was a very concise, cogent and practical set of instructions from someone who seems to have actually meditated.

Many premies, especially fence sitters, think they are leaving meditation when they leave Rawat. They may choose to leave meditation, but that's up to them. Plus what does it take to go back to meditation? The next breath? Or the next milisecond of perception?

Premies, wake up.

==f

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:33:24 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Dildo Rimpoche's an idiot
Message:

I bet he was not financially successful while alive and probably died a poor man.

Now if he had wanted to be a successful master like Rev Rawat, he would have said that meditation reveals god, that the meditation was secret and that he was the only one who could reveal, that no one could be saved without the master and he would have not gone into such detail but simply shown the techs and then kept people waiting around for 30 years wanting to learn more. Now that's the way to be a financially successful guru. :C)

Thanks, Gregg, as a fellow meditator, I learned more in 15 minutes from your post than I did in the 27 years I listened to Rawat.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:43:36 (EST)
From: c
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yeah - an idiot. And M's a MASTER! (nt)
Message:

Yeah - an idiot. And M's a MASTER! (nt)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:31:29 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Thank you for this post!
Message:

I knew people sent to the doctor for having given themselves eye damage in trying too hard to 'meditate' on the light.

Not to mention the anguish at trying to 'realize oneness' with God when the whole shebang was about a fundamental duality, how Transcendently Divine M was and how small and utterly worthless were the stupid and sinful premies.

I'd venture that thousands were psychologically traumatized in the attempt to negotiate all that cognitive dissonance.

Talk about duality! Talk about concepts! M world was chockful of conflicting concepts. If one were to actually realize God (whatever that could mean), one would see that M was an impediment.

Your references here were refreshing, clear and simple. As it should have been all along these last thirty years!

Regards,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:32:54 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Seconded!
Message:

and, Carl, you know the real reasons M changed the techniques to the current 'Knowledge-lite' version? (well, I say 'real reasons' - maybe he had another motive, but I'm pretty sure his insurance adviser would have recommended the change):

1. the 'light' technique had caused at least one poor premie meditator to end up with a detached retina.

2. the 'nectar' technique could easily cause death if the tongue was swallowed while inhaling.

The 'new' techniques, of course, are not what his father, Shri Hans, taught.

Perhaps they were too 'Hindu' for today's premies?

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 00:09:40 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thirded! The Emotion is Passed
Message:

Gregg, I can't thank you enough! Thank you, thank you, thank you so much! I have to admit that my own meditating lately has been a bit difficult (being so intertwined with 29 years of M). A prayer of mine lately has been to improve or even change my approach in a way that would help me shed any trace of M in my practice. The simple and practical things talked about here, the meditation pointers that are given feel like they will go a long way to answering that prayer.

(To what address do I mail the check to pay for your spiritual guidance? What? You say spiritual gifts cannot be sold? What if I call it an unsolicited donation to help you spread the word? Amounts to the same thing, you say? Hmm. I guess that makes sense. Guess it didn't make sense to M, huh? Well, thanks a bunch for the freebie, Gregg.)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 13:32:43 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: M: A Poor Meditation Teacher
Message:

I totally agree. When I first started to doubt Maharaji after reading EPO, I quickly realised something I'd always known but never faced up to, and that is that Maharaji is a very poor meditation teacher. All his teaching is at the introductory level. It's quite clear that when we meditate we have differing experiences, and some guidance about how we deal with these experiences would be useful. Unfortunately for Maharaji, this would require him actually knowing something, or even caring, about his students, like other teachers.

No, definitely 0/10 for teaching skills.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:10:39 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: M: A PISS-Poor Meditation Teacher
Message:

Remarkable how a man like Mr Rawat, who in all probability meditates about as often as the Pope celebrates Hannukah, sets himself up to be an authority on the subject of revealing meditation techniques to the general public.

Not only that, he has the sheer nerve to call himself a 'Master'. Now, what kind of teacher (let alone 'master') has less experience of his particular subject than even his students? A pretty piss-poor teacher. Which is what Rawat evidently is.

And as for 'philosopher' ... Well!!! Don't premies realise that the guy is SO minor league? Nah, they evidently prefer to ignore the real philosophers and stick with the one they mistook for a real teacher back in the early days.

What a waste.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 00:08:46 (EST)
From: WAIT AND SEE
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: M: A PISS-Poor Meditation Teacher
Message:

I watch a video today that when we make the transcript is going to make a fool of him. He is totally full of bulshit.

Obviously he snatched my brains because I cannot stand listening him today.

Such a proud, ignorant, mean ass he is.

silvia

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:25:49 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: WAIT AND SEE
Subject: What video is that? [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 16:20:13 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Mr Rawat, an inept and ignorant meditation teacher
Message:

Who claims to offer the gift of self knowledge, or knowledge of god as he styled it in the past, and then gives you four techniques of meditation, and whose teachings on the subject of meditation is limited to duration of sessions and the placement of your fingers.

I would also like to add, just to please myself, that every so often I would look at a photograph of Mr Rawat's face, and he looked like a toad, a speckled ugly toad, a disgusting toad. Manfully I would struggle to erase the thought from my mind, and not turn in revulsion from him. Lesley, you dear darling girl, thanks for having that thought.

Personally I don't think meditation has anything to do with self knowledge, and has some deleterious side effects. My phrase for it is 'emotional flatlining'. Sure, I can imagine there are times and places where it would be very useful to know how to meditate, not that I like it anymore, but, imo, it is not a goal in itself, and certainly not to be pursued at the expense of taking the emotional sparkle out of one's own little existence. There is enough pain inherent in the process of living a life, no need to add a straightjacket, she said with a wicked smile....

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:52:45 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: My First Grade Teacher...
Message:

I was reminiscing just the other night with my husband about my first grade teacher, Mrs. Smolinski.

She was an older teacher with gray hair, and probably near to retirement. She is the most gentle, kind, and intelligent teacher I ever had. She knew I was having a hard time at home, but was helpless--those were the dark ages.

I was a child at risk, I had pulled out all of my eyelashes and she called my Mom to find out what was going on. A real courageous act in the 1950's.

The only time I could be alone with my Mommy was during the day and school was always so hard for me.

One day I felt as if I was imploding or exploding--I didn't know those words then, I just knew I had to get out of that school. I couldn't stay in the classroom, I wanted, I needed, to be with my Mom.

So I wrote a little note to Mrs. Smolinski, walked up to her desk. The note ''I have sore throat.'' She smiled kindly and nodded to me and said, ''Wait a little while to see how you feel.'' Less than five minutes later I wrote another note ''My head hurts.'' She said, okay, wait a little while and see how you feel. Less than five minutes after that, I wrote a note ''My stomach hurts, very, very bad.'' Mrs. Smolinsky looked at me with her kind eyes and gentle spirit and said, okay, I think you need to go home. She sent me to the nurse who called my Mom who picked me up from school.

I was so fond of her, felt so protected by her, even though she was helpless to do anything for me during those days of denial of child abuse.

Flash forward:

When I returned to the cult in 1997 or so, I wrote Maharaji a long letter telling him of what had happened to me in my life as a child and the difficult time I had in adulthood trying to heal from abuse. Did he answer me? Never.

He is not a teacher in any way. He is a self-indulgent child in his forties.

Even when I was in Mrs. Smolinski's class she was able to teach me things. The stuff that 1st graders learn. But what I remember the most was her love for children, for me, and her understanding that while she couldn't solve my problems at home, she certainly could give me a break to be with my Mother when I needed it.

Wherever you are, if there is a heaven, Mrs. Smolinski, I know you are there.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 16:30:09 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: My First Grade Teacher...
Message:

Hi Cynthia,
That is so sad that you were abused as a child. I'm sorry that happened to you and hope you are in a fulfilling life right now.
I feel lucky that the worst abuse I recieved as a child was being dragged around the country to see the guru, and being neglected and abandoned(sp?), in a way, for the sake of the Guru. That was bad enough, but I know it could always have been worse.
I'm glad you at least escaped the personality cult trap of GMJ's.
Take care of yourself, Bye
Marshall

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:20:45 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: I don't post for sympathy...
Message:

Hi Marshall,

I don't post for sympathy, the abuse is part of what made me who I am. I made that post because I wanted to point out that my first grade teacher showed me more love and compassion than maharaji ever did. That maharaji didn't care about those children who were abused by Jagdeo. Some master, eh?

Also, I don't qualify my childhood abuse, i.e., I don't compare it to anyone elses. All child abuse is bad.

I'm just glad that we aren't in the dark ages anymore, that teachers must report at risk children now. One of the things I love about Vermont is that there's literally an army of people here who work contantly and have dedicated their lives to stopping ALL abuse of children.

Not some, all. Pretty amazing...it makes me proud to know them.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 16:26:30 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: she sounds like a person with discrimination
Message:

- wish my own memories of my childhood teachers were as positive.

You know, when M finally wakes up to the fact that he is NOT the 'master' he claims to be, I wonder if he'll feel a bit like that character Buzz Lightyear in 'Toy Story' -

Remember the bit where Buzz and Woody get captured by the psycho kid next door, whose sister then finds Buzz and plays with him for a while.

Buzz Lighyear, dressed up in a frilly hat, taking tea with the dollies, and thinking he's 'Mrs Nesbitt'.

Cue major identity crisis!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:11:28 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You're one funny dude, cq. (nt)
Message:

x

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