Jorge -:- Who brought M to the west? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:52:14 (GMT)

__ Mike Finch -:- Who brought M to the west? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:06:05 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:18:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:24:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And what about the story about his 'death'? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:56:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- And what about the story about his 'death'? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:17:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Mike - very interesting post. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:58:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- OK, I guess Sitaram's been exagerating -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:24:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ hanuman -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:15:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- What's wrong with Sitaram's version -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:24:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- The Richard on this site maybe? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:49:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ricahrd -:- Richard on this site maybe? No I'm not him (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:02:35 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:12:24 (GMT)

__ __ Jorge -:- Thanks Jean-Michel -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:46:18 (GMT)

__ __ hanuman -:- Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:27:45 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks Jean-Michel and Sitaram NT -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:59:05 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Wasn't it Bob Mishler? (nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 05:50:27 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- What about Gary Girhard's Clandestine -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:23:40 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- A van load of seekers went overland to India . . . -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:13:14 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- sounds like we were listening to the same people -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:29:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Is that you Brian? My long lost twin brother? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:40:26 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Who brought M to the west? -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:01:45 (GMT)

__ Des Perado -:- Air India and Arthur Brigham. -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:00:18 (GMT)

__ __ CW -:- Or a Jockey?(nt) -:- Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:31:30 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 01:52:14 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who brought M to the west?
Message:

Hello everyone:

Who brought M to the west? How is it that he didn't stay in India like many other gurus?

 

Thanks,

Jorge Kreimer

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 19:06:05 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Who brought M to the west?
Message:

It depends what you mean by the 'West' - England or USA.

Whoever bought M to the West (ie England), it was not Sitaram (who I knew well) nor any of the other possibles mentioned in this thread below.

When M arrived in England in June 71, there was no idea from anybody that he would go to USA. It gradually became a possibility as M talked about it, and I guess the idea was forming in his mind that he might extend his school vacation, and freak out his mother MataJi.

The two practical things that enabled him to go from England to USA were:

-- one the air ticket, bought by the then 5 (I think) US premies, primarily Joan Apter, SitaRam, Gary with two others (Richard ?)

-- the second obstacle to be overcome was getting M a US visa, which was very difficult - Maharaji, myself and Bihari Singh spend several full days at the US consulate in London in order to get this, and it was quite a drama (M being a minor, and not having permission of this guardian, MataJi, etc).

So the real answer is it that was a number of people, and probably each of us involved, when looking back through the romantic haze of time, think we were the prime actor.

Mike

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 20:18:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:

Whoever bought M to the West (ie England), it was not Sitaram (who I knew well) nor any of the other possibles mentioned in this thread below.

Would you share with us your version of Sitaram's role in this?

I had a tendancy to believe his story, which is maybe only his view of what happened, and maybe he's been magnifying his own role?

I'd like to set the records straight!

The Archivist

 

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 22:24:43 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:

OK - here are a few things from the link 'http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/sitaram.htm'

>Sitaram used to be a follower (and 'mahatma') of Prempal Rawat in the early 70s<

He was not a Mahatma, meaning someone that M designated a Mahatma and gave permission to give Knowledge. The only western Mahatma in the early 70's was Saphlanand (an English guy from Plymouth called Brian).

Several of those early premies wore Indian dress (white robes, dhotis etc) and called themselves 'Mahatma', but were not Mahatmas as far as M (or any one else) was concerned - only to themselves.

>As the founder of the American organization, and the person who brought the kid to America..<

As I explained in my earlier email, he did not bring M to America - at least, no more than several other people, all working together for the common goal - Joan Apter and Gary in the US, and myself and Glen in the UK.

>I did all the original satsang, speeches at functions, as well as the first initiations in America.<

I was not in the US at that time, so I don't really know. I don't think he did 'all' the original satsang - several were involved, and I don't think he gave K at all, at least not with M's permission.

>It was her who sent me to America from an India I had never wanted to leave, in 1971...<

I didn't know this - it is probably true, but I don't remember him talking about it at the time.

>and within days, mother asked me to go to America to 'spread the knowledge' or whatever<

Again, I didn't know this, and don't remember him talking about it - which does not mean it is not true.

>When I was in the States I coordinated his first trip with London. London paid for Delhi - London, I paid for London - LA<

When I was trying to arrange for M's visa and flight from London to LA, I made several calls to LA, but it was always Joan Apter I spoke to, who seemed to be the one organizing it all.

>In the case of UK, Gurucharananand was sent there because they weren't making any progress there<

That is not true. I was the exact 100th person to get Knowledge in the West (England) from Gurucharnanand (I looked at his log book !) and at that time (early 1970) there were NO premies in the USA at all - there was one American premie we knew of, Richard Alpert, in England. Clearly there were some US citizens getting Knowledge in India; SitaRam according to him, and Joan Apter got K in India on June 3 1970 (funny how these dates stick in your mind !). These drifted back to USA in late 1970 (after the November Peace Bomb program in Delhi) and early 1971, and prepared for M's London - LA flight in July 1971.

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:56:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: And what about the story about his 'death'?
Message:

Looks like after he left m, some time later
everyone was told that he had died from leprosy after drinking his own piss!

Was that disinformation? Do you remember that story?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:17:54 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And what about the story about his 'death'?
Message:

>Looks like after he left m, some time later everyone was told that he had died from leprosy after drinking his own piss!
Was that disinformation? Do you remember that story?<

No I have not heard that story.

Just to leave the record clear, I liked SitaRam (his real name was 'Will') and we got on well together.

He was no more or less wierd than most of us at that time.

I think most people describe their own participation in an event as being more important than others view it - not necessarily with an intent to deceive, but just because we have such a self-centered view of what goes on around us.

Anyway, alive or dead, I wish him well !

-- Mike


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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:58:50 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Thanks, Mike - very interesting post.
Message:

I would say ***BEST OF FORUM***, but I know J-M is going to use what you've said on his pages. Anyway, it is great to hear more about the early days - it clears up a lot of confusion.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:24:53 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: OK, I guess Sitaram's been exagerating
Message:

his importance a bit.

He's definitely been involved at that time, and his version is good for what it's worth I guess. Nice Indian story ...

But beside these details, I found his view and analysis of the phenomenon quite interesting. Don't you think?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:15:21 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:

you say richard alpert was the first us premie..
if we talk about the same guy, the richard alpert from harvard
who did acid with tim leary and ralph metzner, both from harvard,
then this guy was not a premie, he wrote the book 'be here now'
and was a disciple of another maharaji, neem karoli baba...

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:24:38 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: hanuman
Subject: What's wrong with Sitaram's version
Message:

No, not THAT Richard Alpert. Maybe it was another similar name - my memory is going hazy in my old age !! But it was definitely Richard 'somebody' !!

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:49:48 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: The Richard on this site maybe? (nt)
Message:

zz

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:02:35 (GMT)
From: Ricahrd
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Richard on this site maybe? No I'm not him (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:12:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one
Message:

Looks like very few people read those documents !!

The truth about m's coming to West

And forget about all the lies and half-truth you've heard ...

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 13:46:18 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks Jean-Michel
Message:


No I'm not interested in following the guru. I think he might make a good fictional character, that's all.

Thanks again,
Jorge

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:27:45 (GMT)
From: hanuman
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Read Sitaram's interview, he's the one
Message:

very good job, jean-michel, very understandable that M split
from his mother and opened up the tantric section ...

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 07:59:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks Jean-Michel and Sitaram NT
Message:

k

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 05:50:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Wasn't it Bob Mishler? (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:23:40 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: What about Gary Girhard's Clandestine
Message:

dealings? weren't some of the proceeds from that illicit operation used to finance m's expenses in the beginning.

A wing and a prayer and a few pounds of pot and you put the rest of the puzzle together.

At one point I heard Alan Watts was kinda interested in what M was about, although I don't think he put up any money as he was purported to have done with other fledgling spiritual purveyors like werner erhardt.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:13:14 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: A van load of seekers went overland to India . . .
Message:

. . . from England and connected with a young GMJ. He was invited to come to London and did in 1971. Then he was invited by Joan Apter and others to come to the US and that happened in 1972 I think. Someone else may have more colorful details. I heard that Alan Watts put up some cash but that might have been someone's vivid imagination.

Welcome. There is a lot of very good information on this site. Click on Ex-Premie.org button at the top.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 04:29:49 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: sounds like we were listening to the same people
Message:

It might have been each other back then, I remember you particulary in India, and we were both in Montrose as well.

Your old picture was what helped me put you and the scenes together, I wish I could find my old photo's , they are buried here some where

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 15:40:26 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Is that you Brian? My long lost twin brother?
Message:

Yes I 'd like to see photos from back then. If you have memories left from India, maybe I can borrow a few.

R

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:01:45 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Who brought M to the west?
Message:

Well, I don't the names of the people who bought his plane ticket to Heathrow but I do know that he came to west for the same reason that most immigrants to the west come.

LOTS OF LOVELY GOODIES and more money to buy it with.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 02:00:18 (GMT)
From: Des Perado
Email: iWish@Wharfair.dot.au
To: Jorge
Subject: Air India and Arthur Brigham.
Message:

And, of course, JIM THE PRICK.

Des, who reckons the last person on the
planet he would trust is a
lawyer. BUT, Jim is not a bad name
for a racehorse.

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Date: Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 11:31:30 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Des Perado
Subject: Or a Jockey?(nt)
Message:

Cassidy ?

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