housemum -:- OTS's post from below inserted here -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST)

__ janet -:- denver residence -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:22:59 (EST)

__ __ Flashback -:- You already met her before -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:30:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Basic Truth -:- Real Version -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- A few more missing pieces -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:33 (EST)

__ __ Dave Punshon -:- The Producers -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:50:07 (EST)

__ __ __ berni -:- ***FUNNIEST OF FORUM***** -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:18:57 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- M urban legend # 29 -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:59:44 (EST)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hosting M's urban legends -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:09:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- M's Urban legend Ulcer cause -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:10:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I hate to say this - but you're wrong -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:34:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ someone who remembers -:- You're right Dave -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:24:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- God, they even revise the urban ledgends [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:41:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Lol Brian [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:01:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Re: M's Urban legends--speaking of which -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:01:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- cause I've eaten to much sweets (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:52:55 (EST)

__ __ Livia -:- Re: denver residence -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:57:51 (EST)

__ __ __ Gregg -:- Re: mystical experience -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:59:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- Maharaji protects rapist Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EST)

__ __ __ To Livia -:- They were both horney for each other -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:09:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: They were both horney for each other -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:15:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Gail -:- Dear Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:02:41 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- You're fine Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:43:58 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- I had one too livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:59:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:22:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:25:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Bravo! I knew you could do it, Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:19:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JS -:- Re: I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 08:50:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Have you posted here before? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- to all of you -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:38 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- So whatcha got to add to that??t?? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:15:40 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- i'm winging this part -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:01:03 (EST)

__ Ulf -:- LOL... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:13:48 (EST)

Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: All Subject: OTS's post from below inserted here Message:

I hope this isn't forbidden but this post from OTS is about to disappear and thought others should see it. So I cut and am pasting it here. Gregg: I don’t think even THE PREMIES know the bizarre history of the Denver Residence let alone the new occupants and what went on there back in the early 70’s. Once M had us invite the neighbors over for a tea one afternoon to have the introduced to him and his mission while he was out of town. The movie “Satguru Has Come” was shown in the rec room along with tea and cookies, and I remember a few of the pretty blonde teenage girls in the group of 10 or so neighbors crying during the before and after satsang when they realized that they were living across the street from the real living Lord of the Universe. It came as quite a shock to them, I’m sure. Or the time M had a near anger meltdown when he returned from his travels and found that someone had removed from his living room wall the black and blue PLUSH VELOUR VELVET artist rendition of “The Last Supper” which he had purchased that past Spring at a local gas station (sitting right there next to the plush Elvis renditions). Bob Mishler had ordered the “artwork” removed from the wall of the residence and placed in storage. The entire world came to a standstill as the artwork was located and returned from the warehouse immediately. Or the time that M was taken sick with an ulcer, but misdiagnosed by Dr. John as some kind of liver aliment. He canceled his tour. He was in so much pain that he sort of zoned out of this world. A United Airlines stewardess (M. Johnson) was brought in to serve him meals. We could not understand who this person was and why she was brought in for this purpose. We learned later that they were an item an they later married. He was hospitalized for a couple of nights and we brought him home from the hospital in the Mercedes and he was as good a new. He stopped eating red chilies and the pain went away. Or the time M and his mother Mataji got into a playful snowball fight on the front lawn. She in her white sari, he in a black suit and brown boots. Nice picture. Or the hours I spent going over the intricacies of a pinball machine with M and revealing its secrets to him (shaking). Or the time I dropped a five gallon bottle of water on the kitchen floor one evening after dinner. “Mop on aisle 5!”

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:22:59 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: housemum Subject: denver residence Message:

you say you have stories to tell, so let's hear em. we got versions of some of them out in the boonies, but if you have firsthand accounts to relate, so much the better to correct the record. you mention something about the denver residence and 'new occupants'. so? who are they? how did it happen? i lived in denver for 10 straight years and never got this gem. out in new york, where dr john horton and Ron Colleta lived, we got a differesnt version of the ulcer story. Ron told everyone that during his tour across the north border (Boston, New York City, Detroit, Chicago) maharaji got sicker and sicker and finally had to cancel the rest of his tour so they could rush him to an emergency room for the pain in his gut. To hear Ron tell it, he said he was by maharaji's side the whole time, and that he watched Maharaji go into a coma for a while. When MJ came out of it, he was 'in another place'. He Motioned Ron over to his bedside and told him that 'he had been taken to a planet in a higher dimension where all the past Perfect Masters abided, in Eternity, and all they did was have Satsang, forever, with each other. He said he could have stayed there for the rest of Time, but they all told him he had to come back, that his work wasn't finished on earth. He didn't want to leave, but the told him he had to go. Then he found that when he tried, he couldn't find the way back. The Universe was too vast, and earth was so tiny, he got lost. And just when he reached the point of despair, this Goddess came to him out there in the cosmos, and rescued him. When he asked who she was and why she had saved him, she told him she was the Goddes Durga, and that she was sent to find him and show him his way back to us, because sshe was supposed to marry him here and help him accomplish his work.' Ron said Maharaji then looked up at him and began to weep, and Ron asked why he wept, and Maharaji told him 'How will I ever find her, Ron? I didn't know who she is! She didn't tell me how to find her! I opened my eyes, and here I was, back here in this bed, but she isn't here! Oh Ron, what am I going to do!?' And /ron said this surprised him, because he remembered something he had heard Maharaji say to him the last time they were in Los Angeles, and Ron calmed him down and reminded him 'You've already met her, Maharaji. Don't you remember? We were at the ashram in L.A and you pointed out that one sister to me, and told me she was Durga, and that she was going to be your wife someday? You've told me about her before.' Ron siad that at this, Maharaji got extremely agitated and grabed Ron's hand and shook him, and told him 'You must go and find her Ron, and bring her to me. I don't care what you have to do to get her here, just do it. I must see her at once. My whole mission depends on it!' So Ron went out and tracked down Marolyn, and got the message to her to come at once, that Maharaji needed her immediately, and she dropped everything and rushed to get there. mataji already knew about her, or guessed most of it, and was firmly against it, so Maharaji had to have someone rest Marolyn a secret apartment in L.A. where they could get together without Mataji knowing about it. Marolyn said that she would go there and wait, and Maharaji would come, and in her words, 'He would take me away to someplace in the Universe, far away from this world, and he taught me. And when we would come back into our bodies, I was so overcome that I was afraid if I stated crying, I could never stop.' so--whatcha got to add to that??

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:30:43 (EST) From: Flashback Email: None To: janet Subject: You already met her before Message:

MY VERSION: M saw Marolyn on an airplane when he was travelling commercially. He told premie next to him, while pointing towards the stewardess, 'I'm going to marry her one day.'

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST) From: Basic Truth Email: None To: Flashback Subject: Real Version Message:

Marolyn Johnson decided she wanted to be the bride of the living God, and worked her way from being a hippie/Southern California/airline stewardess, into the inner circle of said child God. She also worked it so she could be the stewardess on one of his flights. One thing lead to another and Marolyn engaged in statutory rape under the laws of the state of California. Prem Pal, the living god, liked the, hmmm, worshipping, fawning, sexual attention, and decided to kill two birds with one stone. He could stop having to hide the fact that he was fucking a woman 9 years his senior as a 15-16 year old, and get rid of his mother and take over the mission at the same time. So, they stopped hiding the ongoing affair, such as it was, and got married, telling no one, including his mother. The premies only found out about it after it happened. Marolyn got to be a living goddess, and the rest is history until both started fucking other people, mostly premies, and Maharaji took up with a long term mistress as well, Monica Lewis, which continues to this day, and Marolyn pulls an Eleanor Roosevelt/Jackie Kennedy and lives with it silently, as long as he doesn't flaunt it in front of her and the kids. Who knows what the kids think, probably they don't think very much.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:33 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Basic Truth Subject: A few more missing pieces Message:

Maryoln's supposed first encounter with M ...... Marolyn was a stewardess aka flight attendant to be politically correct in current terms. Anyway she was on a flight that M was on and he was playing with a ballpoint pen which he dropped. The pen rolled around and ended up resting right at his feet. M made no attempt to pick up the pen, he just stared at her as she was sitting close by on one of those flight attendant seats facing the rows of passenger seats. She waited for him to pick it up and he just continued to look at her like go ahead and get that for me. She got up approached M, leaned over and bent down to his feet to pick up the pen and what do you know, thats right folks, she got her first blast of darshan right there 15,000 feet in the air and the rest is history. Whoooooeeee baby,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:50:07 (EST) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: janet Subject: The Producers Message:

One of my favourite films is Mel Brooke's 'The Producers' about an unsavoury theatrical agent, Max Byalistok (spelling?) (ZeroMostel) conning a very naive auditor, Leo Bloom (Gene Wilder) with his fanciful stories in order to get him to fiddle Byalistok's books for the tax man. Reading about Ron Colleta's account of M's trip to the planet of the perfect masters and meeting with Durga on the way back - reminded me of of the Byalistok/Bloom relationship. Unsavoury conman and naive assistant, there you have it - 'Max' Rawat and 'Leo' Colleta (and all the others, inc myself, who believed this horsecrap)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:18:57 (EST) From: berni Email: None To: Dave Punshon Subject: ***FUNNIEST OF FORUM***** Message:

Hi Dave, I too love 'The Producers' and most of what Gene Wilder has done (especially with Richard Prior ). In fact I can imagine M in the guise of Gene saying ''You must go and find her Ron, and bring her to me. I don't care what you have to do to get her here, just do it. I must see her at once. My whole mission depends on it!' Janet's post is really the funniest thing I have read in ages.... 'To hear Ron tell it, he said he was by maharaji's side the whole time, and that he watched Maharaji go into a coma for a while. When MJ came out of it, he was 'in another place'. He Motioned Ron over to his bedside and told him that 'he had been taken to a planet in a higher dimension where all the past Perfect Masters abided, in Eternity, and all they did was have Satsang, forever, with each other. He said he could have stayed there for the rest of Time, but they all told him he had to come back, that his work wasn't finished on earth. He didn't want to leave, but the told him he had to go. Then he found that when he tried, he couldn't find the way back. The Universe was too vast, and earth was so tiny, he got lost. And just when he reached the point of despair, this Goddess came to him out there in the cosmos, and rescued him. When he asked who she was and why she had saved him, she told him she was the Goddes Durga, and that she was sent to find him and show him his way back to us, because sshe was supposed to marry him here and help him accomplish his work. ... Ron said Maharaji then looked up at him and began to weep, and Ron asked why he wept, and Maharaji told him 'How will I ever find her, Ron? I didn't know who she is! She didn't tell me how to find her! I opened my eyes, and here I was, back here in this bed, but she isn't here! Oh Ron, what am I going to do!?' And /ron said this surprised him, because he remembered something he had heard Maharaji say to him the last time they were in Los Angeles, and Ron calmed him down and reminded him 'You've already met her, Maharaji. Don't you remember?' It speaks for itself :) Been a bit busy lately with car crashes and such but one of these days Dave I hope that we will have that drink . berni

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:59:44 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: janet Subject: M urban legend # 29 Message:

It's funny how after all of these years this stuff gets recycled, the version I heard was that M was in the back seat of one of his mercedes being driven somewhere when he had this comatose out of body experience. His driver is purported to have pulled over on the winding malibu highway and herorically given him mouth to mouth resisitation to revive him. I do not remember the ailment that brought the attack on, something to do with the ulcers and exhaustion I think. M supposedly told the driver upon revival that he had just about decided to bag it in after 'going to where all perfect masters go in the afterlife.' Instead he chose to come back and selflessly serve mankind instead of hanging around in heaven with all of the other perfect masters. No mention of durga ji in this urban legend bullshit story, that element adds a whole new twist to this tale. I can't believe that once upon a time I sat with rapt attention listening to and believing this nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:09:14 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Hosting M's urban legends Message:

This is too funny. Maybe they deserve a special place in the 'best of forum' section ? Anybody wanting to compile them ?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:10:58 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: M's Urban legend Ulcer cause Message:

I actually heard this bandied about the community when M had his ulcer. M being perfect and all there had to be a justifiable MYSTICAL reason for his coming down with an imperfect health condition at his age. M WAS TAKING ON ALL OF THE BAD KARMA OF THE PREMIES AND HIS BODY FINALLY BROKE DOWN DUE TO THE STRESS CAUSED BY PROCESSING ALL OF OUR TRANSGRESSIONS AND SINS AND THUSLY HE SUFFERED THE ULCER INCIDENT. Yeah folks it was all our fault, If we hadn't have been sooo bad, so rotten and evil the lord wouldn't have had that ulcer

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:34:01 (EST) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: I hate to say this - but you're wrong Message:

I heard it from someone who was with Maharaji at the time that Maharaji said that the reason why he had his ulcer was to save the world from nuclear war. He said that he had to have the ulcer to prevent a wordwide thermonuclear catastrophe.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:24:26 (EST) From: someone who remembers Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: You're right Dave Message:

He digested world catastrophy for us. How nice of him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:41:52 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: God, they even revise the urban ledgends [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:01:59 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Lol Brian [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:01:47 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: M's Urban legends--speaking of which Message:

Does anyone remember the time he told us he ate our karma when we kissed his feet (Kissimee, 1978 I think). He said that if he even spilled a drop of the karma it would be enough to kill that tree and he pointed to it. Good grief. It was to defend his father after we saw Dad hitting people on the head with his cane to alleviate their karma. What a crock!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:52:55 (EST) From: wolfie Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: cause I've eaten to much sweets (nt) Message:

kkk

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:57:51 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: denver residence Message:

'He would take me away to someplace in the Universe, far away from this world, and he taught me. And when we would come back into our bodies, I was so overcome that I was afraid if I stated crying, I could never stop.' So what on earth was going on here? Was Marolyn totally deluding herself? Or even lying? Please let's not have a rigid party line here that's just the complete converse of the party line we all had before. That first sentence above, PLEASE somebody give me an explanation!!! I'm saying this because once after darshan I had an experience that lasted for 3 days where I felt I had been taken to some place far away from this world, and I saw and felt stuff that I've never forgotten, that echoed all the things you read in mystical scriptures etc etc. It felt like I was being shown a glimpse of the meaning of everything, and when I read that thing that Marolyn said, it reminded me. And actually, I cried and cried and cried too when this thing happened to me, because it was so deep and incredible. Having said that, it never happened to me again. This was in 1978. It definitely added to my faith, because it happened around M and it certainly wasn't autosuggestion, because I felt things I hadn't known before. In a way it changed me into a more relaxed, happy person, and made me quite certain from then on that there's something after death, and that's what's behind this whole universe is essentially benign. I can't describe it closer than that because it was absolutely beyond words. I also know that you don't have to have anything to do with M to have an experience like this; but if M is a complete fraud, why did this happen? In other words, I doubt Marolyn was lying at the time. Maybe that's kept a lot of us there for so many years - experiences of that kind that were undoubtedly real and profound, along with all the brainwashing and all the rest of it? I expect I'll get blown off the Forum now for having sacrilegious thoughts, but what am I supposed to do with these memories? M has certainly messed up with the Jagdeo issue by not dealing with it, and the stuff I've read on EPO has caused me to realise that I was probably in a cult, and that things were going on that would have made me walk away years ago if I'd known about them, etc etc. But what am I supposed to do with these memories? Deny them like I denied the niggling doubts I had when I was a practising premie? I find it all very confusing at times and any suggestions, clarifications would be most welcome. I have immense respect for everybody here - the honesty is stunning and such a welcome relief after years of brainwashed bullshit and autothink. But the danger of constructing an alternative reality that completely negates the one we had before, is that genuine experiences that for me were life-changing, get thrown out of the window without so much as a backward glance. What does anyone else think? HELP!!!! With love, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:59:16 (EST) From: Gregg Email: binduesque@yahoo.com To: Livia Subject: Re: mystical experience Message:

I know what you mean, Livia. My belief about those experiences (I had 'em around M on occasion; I still do years after leaving.) is that they had infinitely more to do with my state of mind than with Prem Pal. Whatever you choose to believe about the source of such experiences, one thing seems pretty clear - that there are ways to make such states more likely to occur. Meditating/praying at length, regularly, works. So does believing in a superior power and feeling grateful for the presence of that deity/energy/guru. I think believing in the power of a guru is easier than believing in 'God' or Jesus or some other apparently distant deity. I mean, he's right in front of you, dressed in a fucking Krishna costume, for Christ's sake! How much more real can you get? So, in a way, we were fortunate to be so gullible (I'm speaking for those of us who still succumb to the allure of small-e ecstasy). It may have opened some doors for us. Luckily, we didn't throw the God-given gift of reason out - at least not permanently - with the bathwater. Despite the Krishna costume, we were clear-headed enough to at last realize that the Emperor, in fact, was buck-naked. Ecstasy is so much sweeter when tasted in the spirit of freedom instead of slavery.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EST) From: Silvia Email: None To: Livia Subject: Maharaji protects rapist Jagdeo Message:

Do you know what happened with Abbi and Elan Vital/Maharaji? Do you know about their last contact? The fact that Maharaji allowed Jagdeo to travel around the world (where is he now BTW?) even knowing there were complaints against Jagdeo is truly a shame. We are talking about somebody who abused children. Amazing that Maharaji protected Jagdeo by not disclosing his hideout! MAHARAJI SUCKS!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:09:27 (EST) From: To Livia Email: None To: Livia Subject: They were both horney for each other Message:

It's as simple as that Don't fret too much. And they were both immature. He more than her

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:15:55 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: To Livia Subject: Re: They were both horney for each other Message:

I was told a couple months ago, that they still are, that they are very physical with each other. Hard to imagine. But then again, now that we know hash has been found under his bed, it's not hard to imagaine how they flew the friendly skies.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:02:41 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Livia Subject: Dear Livia Message:

What you felt was real at the time. One person who posted here stated that Maharaji actually manifested in his room. Many unexplained things happened to us because we were open to the possibility. I have been blasted like that before too, and it feels great, but at what personal cost? Have you ever noticed that your interest or search for something can be mirrored by the whole universe; suddenly, everyone seems to be talking about the same thing. We were looking for answers, feelings of ecstacy, and a deeper meaning to life and we got those things for a while. Wow, we got to meet and adore the Lord of the Universe (not many can boast that one!). However, there are always holes in magical thinking. Sooner or later it all disappears. We are left worse for the wear (sort of like a lifetime heroine addiction--so good on the way up and so bad on the way down). As time goes on, it takes more and more (effort, drugs, whatever the addiction is) to experience less and less. You may never experience those highs again, but you may. It might be difficult to ever believe in something that much again or want something that much again (this seems to be a necessary ingredient for these experiences). That all-out, no-holds barred willingness to jump in to Maharaji's river of maya allowed you to have that experience. Anyone who focuses on anything (athletics, other belief systems, inventions, etc.) is bound to have a profound experience. How can you help it? One-pointedness (fanatacism) leads to great things. You have your whole life ahead of you. At least, your life belongs to you now. It will take time to sort things out, but it must feel good to realize you are standing on your own two feet. The masta isn't carrying you across the desert--he never was. When your walls finish crumbling, you may still have an interest in K or some other spiritual endeavour. On the other hand, you may turn your back on the concept of soul, immortality, god, etc. It will be your choice. The centrifugal force of hitting the wall when you leave the Lard's Whirld of Knowledge ain't easy. As Maharaji said, 'What you don't know will hurt you [like when you find out I'm a fraud]. Be proud of yourself, Livia--a lot of our truth-seeking counterparts just can't face the truth. Here's lookin' at you, kid.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:43:58 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Livia Subject: You're fine Livia Message:

Hello Livia, I can't add much to what Brian and Janet have said to you. I compeletetey understand the experiences you are talking about and had them all during my premie-years and like you, associated them completely with m and k. The point is I still do have them but do not associate them to any belief system. They are just part of who I am. Anyway whose to say that most people don't have the same experiences? You sound really fine to me. What is happening to you is what REALLY happens to premies that DO follow their OWN experiences. Not m's interpretation of what it should be. Take care Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:59:55 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Livia Subject: I had one too livia Message:

I had one in my Knowledge session, and another the first time i walked withMaharji thru Heathrow airport in 1973. I can't reject those experiences, but i am real clear on how his direction in life and mine have diverged over time. I primed myself for those experiences, and he can't take them away from me, nor can anyone else. In the 90's, i came into a period of a few years of extraordinary awareness and new experience that i never expected to hapen to me, involving channelling (which i had never wanted to do) and communion with beings above the material plane, and having opened myself to it for a while, and having later decided to close it down and try to get back to a more normal life, I can speculate that those voices maharaji said he heard after his father's death were probably of similar origin, and that perhaps the power that he felt come into him during the 'peace bomb' was actually a taking over, a passing into, by a vaster entity that actually WAS who he tried to tell us it was. It was no more him, prem pal singh rawat, than i was the guys I allowed to channel thru me when I was doing it. But channelling can get tricky. ego creeps in. selfishness creeps in. people can get notions about being able to do it, and can lose the humility and sense of being a vessel that is so clear in the beginning. I myself went thru a phase of getting deluded and shaping grandiose plans out of it, that give me insight into what has happened to prem pal. I think it has happened to him. There is nothing in the message of the original propagation that ever indicated money, cars, planes, yachts, watch collections, abusing humanity, concealing assetts, alcoholism, addiction or any of the glaring flaws that prem pal has used his peculiar experience to promulgate. In fact, if the channel gets too swelled a head on them, the Bestowing Entity withdraws and denies the gift and leaves them to fake it--or be chastened and realize their mistake and return to the appropriate humility to serve the intentions first meant. I can also say that once opened, it is really hard to try to turn away and act like it never happened. I read the stories of other people who went thru something like this. JZ Knight of the Ramtha phenomenon had it happen to her. I think Jach Purcell of the Lazaris material did too. It takes a lot out of you, and at some point, you may rebel and want to seize your old life back, and just be yourself again. All I know today is, that when i used to have to go to other people who did channelling, whoever it was who wished to address me thru them always told me that I did not need the channeller to reach them, that they were with me regardless. When it started happening to me, I understood why. So PRem Pal singh rawat is NOT the power that used him, spoke to him, came thru him, in the beginning. He has co=opted and corrupted that service and perverted it into his own lusts and greeds and all too human limitations. He speaks of the Master in the third person because it IS a third person! It is not him! He has used it for personal gain, and it will not be forever. It came to him, and it can leave him, without notice. Just as we can. The place you went to in that three day experience is real. You saw how it actually is. And prem pal singh rawat has zilch to do with it. Like Bill says , life worked with the conditions you put upon it, and came to you how it could, but it could come to you more, if youtook some of the conditions off. Maharaji scared us into thinking it had to come from him, because it brought him things. Truth is, it can come to us regardless of him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:22:49 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Livia Subject: I hope I can help you Livia Message:

PLEASE somebody give me an explanation!!! Livia, you sound like you sincerely need some help with this, I am probably wading into deep waters here but I will do my best to toss out a life ring or two. First of all you do not have to throw out that which is near and dear to you nor do you have to deny the essence of what brought you to M&K in the first place. What is important today is for you discern what really is and has been going on with m and the cult and leave it behind you. Treasure the good memories, but don't get caught up in eurporic recall associating your personal experiences with those of the cult indoctrination. I feel that you understand whatever you experienced that you once attributed to M was not through him but from within YOU by YOU. Your longing, your desire, your need to fullfill something within yourself created by you alone the experience that you attributed to M. I also know that you don't have to have anything to do with M to have an experience like this; but if M is a complete fraud, why did this happen? You are right Livia What you experienced slipped through the cracks of the cult and m and took you to a place which is totally of your own experience way beyond the bondage of devotion to the master, guru, devotee relationship that he cultivates. This is where m falls short and becomes scandalous, fraudulent, he takes what is yours and claims it as his own. Don't let him get away with it anymore, take back what you gave up and become whole once again, for he can only rob you with your permission. You gave m all the credit long ago because at that time you were conditioned to do so and you were not able to accept the responsibility for your own experience, your own beauty your own free will. You don't have to do that anymore. With m out of the way there is one less limitation in your way to explore your own personal spiritual vision if that is what you want to do. Basically just learn to love and trust yourself again, you have all of the answers for yourself just nuture them. Things will start to gradually come together the pieces will fit just fine and your life will make more sense than it ever did. I hope this helps Love to you, Brian

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:25:56 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: I hope I can help you Livia Message:

Dear Brian and Janet, Thank you so much for your very kind words - I really needed to hear them; I was getting a bit confused after reading that Marolyn thing and the intense memory it brought up for me. I'm now thinking two things: maybe as you say, M really was a channel for a higher power in those days (I've felt too much to be able to turn round now and disbelieve in a higher power or essence of some kind). The more I think about it, I do think M was sincere in the early days, and maybe his intense desire to spread K to the world was so real for him that it connected him to something, and we all picked up on this and were carried along with it. There really was so much sincerity and longing for truth around in those days, and I know we all cared very much about helping to make this world a better place, and felt we could do this by helping M to spread K. For me it kind of died in the era beginning in 1977, when M suddenly put the emphasis on devotion above evrything else. (Although having said that, my 'cosmic 3 days' were in 78, but it was an isolated experience.) Generally speaking, I felt that the atmosphere from 77 onwards wasn't that good. I just didn't feel comfortable with it any more. There seemed to be more emphasis on devotion and surrender to M than on actually experiencing K and helping others to get to the experience of K. I rationalised this in my head by imagining that K couldn't be experienced without surrender, but surrender was becoming a more and more unattractive option. I lived in an ashram for a while at this point, but the love and joy amongst the premies wasn't the same as it had been earlier, it felt laboured and less real. There was little spontaneity and some of the premies around me began to seem robotic, even scary. A few years later I was definitely finding a lot more love and sponteneity completely away from the premie world, so that's where I went. However, the experiences I'd had from 72 - 76 (and that one in 78) had been so real that it kept my faith alive. I suppose looking back now I should have exited around then (post 78). Maybe M really did lose the plot at that time, and whatever had been coming through him (this is just a theory!) left him. After that, we were merely going through the motions and trying to do what he told us in the hope that the spirit of the early days would come revive? For me it never did, really. In fact, I really feel I wasted those years 78 - 83, and I feel angry with myself about it. I'll probably start feeling angry with M about it too, soon. But I suppose it's in the past and I'll have to let it go. Fortunately from 83 I really started following my heart (as I think a lot of us did) and putting my energies into other things, and I'm so glad I did. The other thing I'm thinking is that if you long for truth, whatever, and live with sincerity in the best way you know how, which for us at that time was to devote ourselves to the person we thought was the LOTU, then from time to time out of this world experiences will inevitably occur, because of the intensity and sincerity of the longing. And 'longing for truth' doesn't only have to mean 'spiritual truth', - if it's a genuine need to know truth, then a courageous seeker shouldn't afraid to examine objective truth too, and use his/her discrimnation to work out what's really going on. The huge problem for the remaining premies is that they are forbidden by the person they still see as the LOTU from examining some objective truth, and this is where it all comes tumbling down. If a premie is a sincere seeker of truth, the thing that brought him to M and K in the first place, then by being afraid to look at the contents of EPO, he has turned from being a seeker of truth into an obedient pawn. And that is the tragedy for the premies today - actually it's quite heartbreaking. The magic, the love, the depth, the joy have all but gone but they daren't go anywhere else. Brian, your post to me made me cry; it released something, thank you so much. Love to you all, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:19:41 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Livia Subject: Bravo! I knew you could do it, Livia Message:

And 'longing for truth' doesn't only have to mean 'spiritual truth', - if it's a genuine need to know truth, then a courageous seeker shouldn't afraid to examine objective truth too, and use his/her discrimnation to work out what's really going on. The huge problem for the remaining premies is that they are forbidden by the person they still see as the LOTU from examining some objective truth, and this is where it all comes tumbling down. If a premie is a sincere seeker of truth, the thing that brought him to M and K in the first place, then by being afraid to look at the contents of EPO, he has turned from being a seeker of truth into an obedient pawn. And that is the tragedy for the premies today - actually it's quite heartbreaking. The magic, the love, the depth, the joy have all but gone but they daren't go anywhere else. I knew you could figure this thing out for yourself. These are some amazing insights you have shared with us today, as good as it gets. The work you have done here is very helpful to the rest of us especially the numerous lurkers who read and observe yet another person reclaiming themselves from the myth. The thanks go to you today Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 08:50:53 (EST) From: JS Email: None To: Livia Subject: Re: I hope I can help you Livia Message:

I agree with you Livia...there's no need to construct a 'new reality' concerning any involvement or experiences you might have had while around maharaji and being a premie... I think that the search for truth demands that we guard against that sort of stuff, which as you say, is just the flip side of what the cult said and did for all of those years... I absolutely feel that when I got into k and m, that it was my own individual search for truth that landed me on his doorstep. It seemed to supply me with something that I needed at that time...it seemed to work, although there was always a nagging feeling inside me that something just wasn't right with the whole thing....I had the feeling that there were things I didn't know that would bother me if I did know them....an inexplainable feeling that not everything was right... But like many others, I continued steadily until about 2 years ago (1972-1999) when too many things simply told me to question this whole thing and to ultimately leave it. When I did, I 100% knew that I was following my heart, and that in my ongoing search for truth, it was absolutely the right thing to do. What a breath of fresh air it was, when I exited! Yes, there were chains of fear, doubt and guilt, but once I broke through them, what a freedom! Actually, in exiting, I took some of m's advice about life, in order to help with the process. Also, when I did leave him, and realized what a burden he was on my system, I actually began to experience life in a much more satisfying,beautiful way....those wonderful experiences he talks about of a simple, natural, peaceful feeling were much more accessible now that I had left him, and they were also mine, not his. In terms of finding the truth, EPO has been a valuable tool, although I admit, many times there's a lot of stuff you have to wade through to get to it. I believe it is imperative that you know everything about a supposed teacher, especially when the claims they make are as grandiose as m's have been. It is imperative that m stand up and account for all of those things he said, and now denies ever having said. It is imperative that these things are known BEFORE someone considers receiving knowledge, so that they can make an intelligent, informed decision on just what they are getting into, and who they are going to be involved with for the rest of their life, and supposedly, the next life as well..... M's irresponsibility is held in check in many ways simply because of the existence of EPO. It's telling that it could be so threatening to him, and obvious why certain people are trying to destroy or discredit it. As far as experiences go, I too had powerufl experiecnes from festivals etc., but I have far better ones now. They are mine, and not dependent upon someone that I don't respect or trust. Isn't it funny how M says proudly, and arrogantly, that HE doesn't need a 'middle man'? He has said that many times...he doesn't need a religion, because he has a direct connection...he doesn't need the 'middle man'.... But what he then does is, is to trap all of his followers into believing that they DO need a middle man, which of course, is him! He has them in psycho/spiritual bondage, and if he really wanted to free them, he would tell them to get their own lives and quit the 'devotion game', that only seems to benefit him, and disempower them. I can't tell you how many premies I know who still don't know what they want to do in life, and feel that they continually need to see him for 'clarity' or a 'tune up'....they are still waiting for something that will not come to them until they wake up and realize that is up to them to do it.....somehow, they still think he will supply some 'missing link'....in some cases, it really is quite sad, and sadder yet because m steadfastly refuses to accept any responsibility for his part in the deceptive game...it's always the premies that are confuesed or wrong, never him... I feel that your experiences, and the intensity and meaningfulness of them, is completely dependent on the sincerity and involvement you are willing and able to bring to the table yourself. I see this in the church I go to, and the yoga practice I am involved in..... Life is beautiful, especially when you are free... It's even a beutiful mind... I just wish m would have the guts and authenticity to face his own problems, and stop screwing with the premies lives...they have no idea how deeply conditioned they are, until they finally step out of m's 'golden cage'....he can help them with that, but unfortunately it would involve him telling the truth, which would cause most of the premies to leave.... Best wishes, livia... Hope I didn't confuse you too much with this early morning rambling....got to get my coffee and go to work....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:18 (EST) From: Silvia Email: None To: JS Subject: Have you posted here before? Message:

Hi JS, I don't rememeber seeing your name before? Are you new? Nice post, sincere.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:38 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: JS Subject: to all of you Message:

I just want to say to all of you have posted today on this thread: a big heartfelt thanks. You've helped me to remove another layer. I hope I can be there for you all as much as you've been there for me. Lots of love and hugs to all of you dear people Livia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:15:40 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: janet Subject: So whatcha got to add to that??t?? Message:

That John Hampton told us little premieji's Marilyn couldn't stop crying when she moved into the ashram, and one day Maharaji sent him to get her, so he fetched her up to the residence. No more details, that's all. Also I remember a quote that had Maharaji saying he was such a magician, that a perfect master could bind himself to and free himself from creation at the same time ie his coma. But what I wanna know is, if his 'mission' depends on Marilyn, then what's Monica got to do with it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:01:03 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Vicki Subject: i'm winging this part Message:

The way I gethered it, I guess Marolyn's role was to marry him and make him more earthy and relatable by having kids and being a family man. Anchor him in a more mundane lifestyle, supposedly. Never mind the green card. Oh no--look not at that man behind the curtain! So either that part was finished when the kids became pretty much adults, hit the age of consent or drinking or driving or legal emancipation-- or maybe marolyn's aneurism put her out of the running? kh'oo knows, dollink--? call em as you see em. that's what i do. so whats this about the denver residence?? you were saying?...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:13:48 (EST) From: Ulf Email: None To: housemum Subject: LOL... Message:

Here is another one 74 m was here at the residence , and felt some pain in his back , or perhaps it was in another part of his body , i am not sure about where the pain was But as the nigth , went on , he was in so much pain that one of the premies , had the service to bring him to the hospital. When they came inside the hospital , he was in so much pain that nobody could come near him , he was screaming like a dog. The poor premie was talking to the staff, and then to M At last , the lord of the universe,, allowed them to look at him Then... They told him , that, nothing was wrong , he was just fine .. M and the premie went home happy togheter. And the premie left the cult 2 years after L.O.L

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