Bob -:- miss your posts -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:56:42 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Masters are for dogs -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:32:33 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- Wow Pat! Where do you come up with this stuff? -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:02:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- You don't want to know, Tonette -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:28:31 (GMT)

__ __ freethe premies -:- ******BEST of FORUM***** -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)

__ __ banana bai -:- the same danger exists everywhere -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:58:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ sb -:- what a fish you are! -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:08:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Maharaji quotes... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:52:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ joe100@freeserve.co.uk -:- Maharaji quotes... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:13:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Welcome, Joe100... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:03:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Recent agya unconnected to knowledge -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 04:09:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Bai Ji, watching you open up here on the forum -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:12:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- You do contribute greatly -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:02:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Bob -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:07:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- PatC, I'll miss you... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:32:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Then email me. The forum is a full-time job -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:47:32 (GMT)

Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:56:42 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Pat C
Subject: miss your posts
Message:

Pat ,i miss your posts. Hope to read them soon again.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:32:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Bob
Subject: Masters are for dogs
Message:

Thanks, Bob. What a nice message to read on this beautiful Sunday in San Francisco. I'm trying to take a break from the forum as I am gearing up for the three summer months when I make half my annual income and I won't have time to post or read probably.

Joy said the best way to stop forum addcition is to stop posting. That way you don't get caught up in discussions. Also keep my email address handy in case you ever feel like talking to me.

But I'll share this with you. Today I just received this email from a premie who has heard about the new Propagation Training Seminars. I asked him what he thought about that.

He said: ''Pat, training is for dogs....i won't be part of anything that even suggests to me how to speak from the heart....so we are in agreement there....''

I replied: ''Well, I go one step further and say that only dogs need Masters. I came to Knowledge because of satsang and I prefer being inspired by my friends' speaking spontaneously and sincerely from their hearts. I'll get high with a little help from my friends rather than from a greedy guru.''

Searching for a master using a search engine. Results 99.9% sado-masochistic pornography and 0.1% spiritual stuff. For example I thought this was hilarious.

The master said: ''Right now, I want to test you out to
see how you perform as a slave. He opened the bag and pulled something out.

''I've always wanted a dog. Let's see if you can be a good dog for me.''

The object was a dog collar, a big one, like for Dobermans or something. He put it on me. I didn't resist, but I melted a bit when his hands touched my neck. When he finished, he crouched down to look me in the face.

''Here we go. I want to see if you can be a good dog. Please me and we can do some more. Fail, and I'm gone.''

That was all the threat I needed, I wanted the master in my life forever, and I wanted to always be at his feet. He straightened up. And I got on all fours, looking up at him.

''Good Fido. Let's see if you know any tricks. Sit.''

I put my ass on the floor, keeping my arms straight, so I looked like a dog sitting.

''Good boy. Lie down.''

I put my arms forward and my head down. I couldn't look at Master's face like that, and I must have looked like a Muslim at prayer, but it seemed to be what Master wanted.

''Up.''

I got back on all fours.

''Roll over.''

I did.

''Play dead.''

I rolled onto my back and left my arms and legs in the air.

''Good boy.''

Master stood over me and stared down.

''Sit,'' he ordered again and I sat.

''Speak.''

I 'woofed.'

Master then took something else out of his bag and
it was a leash. He attached it and said ''Heel.''

He began to walk around the room. I followed the best I could. Humans just weren't made to go about on their hands and knees very fast or very long. And I had a hard time keeping up with Master. Of course, it didn't help that he as going in a circle with me on the outside. So he could take little steps and out pace me.

As I grew tired he began to jerk on the leash and say ''Heel Fido, Heel.''

I tried to keep up, I really did. I wanted to please my Master, but it was so hard. My eyes began to water. Finally he stopped and looked down at me, disapproval etched in his face. I cowered at his feet and whimpered looking up at him with pleading in my eyes. It wasn't just that my knees hurt from following him around, but it was embarrassing for me. And turning me on.

Master then lay down and stretched out. I rushed to him and said ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

His feet were up, and so I kissed the bottom of them.
Master exploded, slapping me in the face, beating me with his fists, and kicking me.

''You sorry fuck, that's not the order I gave you!''

I cowered before Master. ''I'm sorry Master, please forgive your worthless slave. I will do better Master, I'm sorry Master. I'm sorry Master.''

''You had better do better. I'm going to have to punish you now, and I didn't want to do that.''

''I'm sorry Master.''

''Shut up.'' Master looked down at me cowering at this feet and thought a few minutes.

''I'll punish you later. Get back to work.''

''Yes, Master.''

''Shut the fuck up.''

I was so upset to disappoint Master. It took me a while to figure out that I was supposed to ask him to kiss his feet first.

I went back to work cleaning. The bell rang again. Determined to do better this time, I hurried to the living room, knelt, kissed the bottoms of his feet and said: ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

''Better, bitch. I just wanted to see if you would do better. Get back to work.''

''Yes, Master.''

A few steps down the hall, the bell rang again. I hurried to Master, hit my knees, kissed his feet and said, ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

''I just wanted to see you do it again. Back.''

''Yes, Master.''

I got to the door when he rang the bell again. I quickly returned to Master, knelt, kissed his feet, and said, ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

''Back,'' Master said, some amusement in his voice.

The game was restoring his good spirits. The bell rang again when I was only a few feet away. I turned around, took the three steps back to Master, knelt, kissed his feet, and said, ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

''Back.''

This time I was only part of the way up when the bell rang again I returned my knees, kissed his feet, and said, ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

This time there was no 'back', just the bell ringing again. I kissed his feet, and said, ''I am here Master, what can your lowly slave do for his great Master?''

Master kept this up for a few cycles, never letting me off my knees. Finally he tired of the game and sent me back to work.

At the end of the day he said: ''OK, I'll give you a shot. Be back here tomorrow at 9. I want you here. I'll give you a run through to see if I like the way you perform. If I like it, I'll keep you. If I don't, I may just fuck you every so often. Now, here are some rules; One, I like being called 'master' so do that. 'Sir' is OK, but I prefer 'master'. I want to be sure you know your place. Next. I want you to wear that dog-collar for me. From 9pm tomorrow night, I want you on your knees in the center of the living room waiting for me. Have your hands behind your back and your head down. Got that, boy?''

''Yes, Master.''

Well, the rest of the story is pretty raunchy and hair-raising so I'll leave that out. It is from a story entilted, ''Serving a younger Master,'' and is about a man who falls under the spell of a high-school bully. Sound familiar?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 07:02:07 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Wow Pat! Where do you come up with this stuff?
Message:

There sure are some striking similarities in that story.
Embarassing we ever fell for that crap treatment. I hope you make lots of money this summer. Good luck! Tonette

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:28:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: You don't want to know, Tonette
Message:

Unless you fancy crawling through tons of internet smut.

Thanks for your wishes. I wish you health, wealth and happiness too.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)
From: freethe premies
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ******BEST of FORUM*****
Message:

thanks Pat, have a good time where you are going.

The Way speed to you! ;) Shine baby!

write,love,

SB

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 23:58:57 (GMT)
From: banana bai
Email: starflock@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: the same danger exists everywhere
Message:

Good point about the 'master' word.

But you know what? I think a lot of people want a master -- or a dogma -- or a set guideline of what to do, how to think, what to 'be.' It keeps one from having to think for oneself -- or from having to take responsibility for one's own actions. I see Christians doing it; I see people in military doing it; I see children doing it. It is not good.

I was just remembering that Maharaji talked about 'agya' in a video a year or two ago... He said most people have the wrong definition for it, and that the agya of the [insert word here: Satguru, Guru, Perfect Master] was only what was in direct relation to practicing Knowledge and nothing else. He made it clear that the only agya was the directives he gave specifically in regard to practicing Knowledge -- i.e., satsang, service and meditation (or listening, participating and practicing, in the vernacular of the day). I like it when I hear him say things like this and I am taking him for his word on it.

banana bai

P.S. PatC, it is understood that your lack of response does not mean you agree with anything I say. We know you need to stop posting!!

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:08:48 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: what a fish you are!
Message:

You said:

I was just remembering that Maharaji talked about 'agya' in a video a year or two ago... He said most people have the wrong definition for it, and that the agya of the [insert word here: Satguru, Guru, Perfect Master] was only what was in direct relation to practicing Knowledge and nothing else. He made it clear that the only agya was the directives he gave specifically in regard to practicing Knowledge -- i.e., satsang, service and meditation (or listening, participating and practicing, in the vernacular of the day). I like it when I hear him say things like this and I am taking him for his word on it.

insanity! dogggy dogggy...psss talk like a parrot. You look goooooooood.NOT

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:52:54 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: sb
Subject: Maharaji quotes...
Message:

The funny thing about quoting anything Maharaji says, is that if you really start to scrutinize what he says, you will find that he contradicts himself quite a bit. And if you point this out to premies, they usually reconcile these contradictions by saying, ''It's not the WORDS that are important, it's THAT FEELING''.

I would conceed that M. has said some beautiful things sometimes. If he only ever said crap, all the time, why would any of us have bothered in the first place? It was the beautiful stuff that got us hooked. Because people here are angry, that anger can color their perception of everything he says and does. That is only natural.

But the beautiful things he says are not original, and have often been said by other people, and said better. All the things he says that may sound nice are used to build up to the one thing he teaches; that YOU NEED HIM, THE MASTER. That is all he really teaches. He says some nice things, some generic universal truths, to garnish the crap and lend it credibility.

Banana bai said:
''I was just remembering that Maharaji talked about 'agya' in a video a year or two ago... He said most people have the wrong definition for it, and that the agya of the [insert word here: Satguru, Guru, Perfect Master] was only what was in direct relation to practicing Knowledge and nothing else. He made it clear that the only agya was the directives he gave specifically in regard to practicing Knowledge -- i.e., satsang, service and meditation (or listening, participating and practicing, in the vernacular of the day). I like it when I hear him say things like this and I am taking him for his word on it.''

I always liked it too, when he would actually say something that made sense, something I could relate to or that sounded freedom affirming. But as Marianne has pointed out in this thread, M. can say one thing about agya, then do another. You cannot hold him to anything he says. His agya means whatever the hell he wants it too, when he wants it to. He is the Master of revisionism, revising ''the truth'' to be whatever he wants it to be at any given time. A priviledge that God reserves for himself? And if you are a GOOD premie, you won't question the purity of the Master. How convenient.

He cannot be trusted, because he LIES, repeatedly. In the end, the biggest thing that caused me to break with him was the lies and the secrecy. I feel so much better now not trying to reconcile myself with someone who does not tell the truth, and has secrets. How can a lying, secretive person propagate anything truthful? Where is his credibility?

I don't mean to be overly critical of Banana bai, she actually seems like a nice person. I still have premie friends, I'm not on a mission to convert premies. I just wanted to comment because, well, some of the things she says reminds me of myself several months ago.

I've enjoyed reading your posts, SB, sounds like you are really having fun. Good for you!

- Chuck Sprague,
who thinks it's very funny that Guru is Greater than God, but the French News Media is apparently greater than them both!

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 23:13:46 (GMT)
From: joe100@freeserve.co.uk
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Maharaji quotes...
Message:

well done! how right and TRUE your words sound! How much longer will they deceive themselves by listsning to him deceive them?

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 05:03:22 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: joe100@freeserve.co.uk
Subject: Welcome, Joe100...
Message:

Hello Joe.

Good question. That's why I kick in my two cents worth here now and again. After supporting M's ''work'' financially for years, I also feel obligated to undo a bit of the damage that may have been done, by helping others out of the deception.

When I first realized there was a wall of secrecy around M's finances, I was upset to think he spent most of it on himself. After learning more about what he's been doing, I now hope he DID spend it on himself, instead of sucking other people into his cult.

It was the lies and secrecy, AND being a volunteer on one of his Commitees for many months, that really made me face up to what was going on, and made me want to leave. Seeing the Atlanta Training Seminar video about propagation was the straw that boke the camel's back. It was cold and creepy, what I would associate with something like the Moonies.

Where was all the love and the good vibes that drew me into being interested in M's knowledge in the first place? It's not in any of his human-dog training seminars, I'm sure of that. It's all tainted with lies and deceptions. I hung in their because I got something out of meditation. But I still enjoy that without the urug, even more so now, actually. I would have been better off with a good yoga instructor. M. has become a real embarassment. He can't face the news media, because he's been telling lies. What he's been doing won't hold up to scrutiny.

I guess people see through the deceptions when and if they are ready to. They find new information, and at first they deny it. But slowly it sinks in. Some resist it more than others. I had to read this site, on and off, over two years, letting the new information assimilate. Eventually it reached critical mass.

It's not easy, but for me there was a point where it became easier to really look at everything and admit the truth, painful as it was, instead of continuing to make excuses. When you can really look at everything honestly without decieving yourself, it all starts to get better. The paradigm shift is the hard part, but it truely starts to get better after that. RELIEF!

Everyone has their own story to tell. I hope we will hear more from you.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 04:09:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Recent agya unconnected to knowledge
Message:

banana bai, Captain Rawat recently had a premie contact Mike Finch, one of the first western premies, who had begun posting here. Mike is no longer a devotee of M. Anyway, the premie who contacted Mike told him that Maharaji had given Mike agya not to post on the forum. Obviously, this agya had nothing to do with the practice of knowledge -- only with trying to control the actions of someone M wanted to muzzle.

You cannot trust his words. The meaning changes with his whims.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:12:19 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: banana bai
Subject: Bai Ji, watching you open up here on the forum
Message:

has tempted me back all over again. I think you are so sweet and honest and sincere that you are like a breath of fresh air compared with the nastier PWKs who post insults here.

I left for 17 years (but kept practicing the yoga techs) and then went back last year. I found it so disgusting that I decided to really find out what was wrong. What's wrong, I discovered, is the whole idea of a leader. Yuk. I'm a democrat.

I prefer getting high with a little help (satsang) from you guys. Rev Rawat's satsang is too polluted with his ego and blatherings about his personality. I am not interested in worshipping his personality or the latest watch he has added to his collection.

I look forward to talking with you as long as you don't pull the UFO thingy on me. Okay? ;)

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:02:39 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You do contribute greatly
Message:

But I'm posting a little less myself now, life itself is more important, and can use up a lot of time. Good luck with all the work!

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:07:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Thanks, Bob
Message:

And I always read your posts too. I hope you get in touch with me. I wish you everything of the best in your new home.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 19:32:22 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PatC, I'll miss you...
Message:

but it is quite difficult to keep up with these posts when you don't have time.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:47:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Then email me. The forum is a full-time job
Message:

and I already have one of those. The next three months I will be doing 14 hour days as I make most of my income in summer. Like you, I cannot keep up with all the posts but the newcomers keep luring me back.

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