Patrick W -:- latest from me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:46:49 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- I thought your post was too long.... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:53:51 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- That's no way to make friends, John -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:04 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Questions, Patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:52:46 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- Questions, Patrick -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:19 (GMT)

__ Abi -:- powerful stuff -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 13:11:02 (GMT)

__ Charlie -:- Well said!! Thanks (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:44:12 (GMT)

__ salam -:- firecrackers. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:15:34 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Go out not with a bang but a whimper NT -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:32:37 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- I remember M saying that -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:13:12 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- thanks 4 sharing my rad idea;plan is proceeding(nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:31:58 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Brian you are not radical but sensible -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:48:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Amen Mahatma Pat Ji, I mean that sincerely -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:42:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Gettin high with a little help from friends, Brian -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:49 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- The Document Shredders -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 08:37:36 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- No matter how much they shred,there is still a lot -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:33:21 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:28:11 (GMT)

__ __ Patrick W -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:50:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ donner -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:53:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Ends justify the means: Jones and Rawat -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:57:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- every chance you get? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- A bit cryptic, patrick -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:47:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ends justify means- reform or more revisionism -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:19:29 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- All I can say is ** Best Of Forum** post! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:37:36 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- FA et al: Request reg ***Best of Forum***!! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:32 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks, Patrick , for the info and your essay -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)

__ donner -:- p.s. on raja ji -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:55:38 (GMT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- Raji Ji is a parasite on a parasites ass -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:40:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Raji Ji's ''Propagation Tour'' 1999 1st big drip -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:51:48 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- raja ji -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- raja ji = Daram Pal Singh Rawat (or Dharam) /nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:18:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- 'Dharam Pal Singh Rawat' is correct -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:08:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Where does he live? How much loot? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:22:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Where does he live? How much loot? -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:05:52 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- doing service all the time -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:47:30 (GMT)

__ donner -:- latest from me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:34:34 (GMT)

__ __ bill-no way has he either -:- understood or accepted 'the past'..nt -:- Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:42:28 (GMT)

__ Katie H. -:- Shredding the documents! - thanks, Patrick! (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:29:10 (GMT)

__ Roy -:- latest from me -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:18:41 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Really wonderful -- thanks -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:14:22 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Jim, I don't have any friends.... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:51:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat the Fat Fag -:- But I love you, you Latvian Irishman NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:04:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Latvian Yorkshireman, please -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:19:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- John: point taken, slap accepted -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:23:27 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Really wonderful -- thanks -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:35:44 (GMT)

__ moldy warp -:- Very powerful post. Just taking it in at the mo nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:49 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:46:49 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: latest from me
Message:

Interesting day. I picked up Mike Dettmers today from Gatwick airport and he is now upstairs asleep in my spare room. We had a pleasant evening meal at 'Topolino's' and have had some nice chat with a few local friends.

In my usual diplomatic spirit, I tried to interest Glen Whittaker in talking about the ex-premie issues with Mike whilst he's in town. This mission failed when Glen politely declined to speak with him. Anyway Mike has been making some efforts to contact Raja Ji, who is apparently in England at present. Maybe they will chat - who knows?

I think that premies / Maharaji are probably undecided yet as to whether to adopt a policy of strictly 'no negotiation' with critics, or whether some placatation may be considered inevitable. Certainly many of the PAM's, despite their feelings of loyalty, do seem to be privately admitting that this forum and the revelations thereof are a healthy development. (the revelations are incidently almost all true as far as I can now see - anyway I am certain enough to put my name at the top of this post in good conscience) .

A couple of other telephone calls tonight. One from someone who wishes to remain anonymous and who dictated to me the following, to post on the forum. This is simply what they wanted me to post - I trust this person but they are not my words (in italics):

Premies in Miami are busy shredding documents pertaining to the past. ie. ashram application forms with signed vows, financial records of DLM/EV companies etc.

Also Maharaji is reported to be reading this site on a fairly regular basis. (Mike Donner please send your $50 for losing that bet) Supposedly he finds these revelations about his past behaviours even quite liberating because he no longer has to make any efforts to keep them secret. ( I always knew that we were doing 'service' here all along).

So, having had the chance to talk a little with Mike Dettmers it is now quite clear to me (just from the emails he's picking up and from what he and these other callers have said) that there is really a lot of interest in this site at all levels.

What also impressed me is that both Dettmers and I are both clearly motivated largely by the desire to uphold principles here, not so much because of feelings of personal anger or regret.

That is not to say that I don't feel some frustration that there is a need in the first place, in this matter of something that I trusted to be about Truth, God and Goodness, to have to ever examine whether my Masters behaviour was even more lacking in integrity than anything I could have come up with in my most sordid moments. Specifically it seems a very sorry state that a seeker of truth ends up having to deal with the fact that their master himself has taken considerable steps to cover up even the most basic truths about the things that go on in his private life. The bigger truth it seems does not, in this case, inspire even such fundamental honesty in he who claims to be in touch with the highest inspiration.

What hope is there for us? I say we should very carefully examine our lives and not be afraid to put those who would be our Masters to the test. Basically I am putting my trust in a higher God -and at the moment that means my better judgement - which has proved to be a more trustworthy resource.

In truth, I see that this is not a story whose conclusion we can avoid being a part of. At best we can take some responsibility in our lives and stand up for what truthful and sincere values and longings we put into this thing in the first place. We can change this story from being a wasteful tragedy, into a story where truth wins, and lies, cover-ups, travesties of truth, are seen for what they are. We are writing the history book here. Not just him. We can do some real good now by demanding that Maharaji comes clean. It is a travesty that the Master's pupils have to expose his hypocrisies rather than he admit them with an honest and forthcoming attitude.

If this knowledge is so great then where is the strength of character of the Master who is supposed, surely, to be the ultimate example of the benefits of his teaching?

Is it not suspicious that his most ardent followers are having such a crisis of confidence? That at this stage the fruits of his labours are notably his enormous wealth and a society of stilted premies who speak in terms of donations and the cold distribution of Knowledge by DVD -and less of personal and infectious happiness and inspiration? You want to be around the Master - you'd better be prepared to pay for that priviledge nowadays. Those privy to participation meetings will probably know what I mean.

I am rather shocked that so many people, like myself, who approached this man and his teachings with so much sincerity, are hesitant to stand up, in the face of these unfolding facts, to question the many contradictions that are coming to light. You should be ashamed of yourselves if you don't try to understand the truth about what is going on with Maharaji in this world. You should be ashamed if you are assuming it is the spotless 'show of the Master' and have disengaged your conscience and need to discern the truth. You should be ashamed if it is merely convenient for you to not re-examine the integrity of your trusted leader. Would you be party to lies? For how long?

Maharaji is right that time is precious. I do not wish to be half-hearted about my commitment to truth. That is why I take these discussions so seriously. That is why I am trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If I can redeem some truth and inspiration from the years of sincere meditation, dedication and sacrifice -I shall. Maharaji most definitely should talk not to, but with those people who, in his power play, have felt abused, confused, or simply still have misgivings .

One of my main bug-bears has been simply 'Why do I have to feel embarrased about introducing loved ones to this experience?'. I wish to God I had the strength of faith (and hadn't been required to vow not to do) to show this meditation, with love and care to those who were interested.

Maharaji now caw can afford to retire as a multi-millionare. That is surely a fact. The air-brushed image of who he is we now know to be innaccurate. Many of us gave up our lives, our youths, to put him and his family in clover - as he effectively is now materialistically. He and his family live hugely opulent lifestyles based entirely on the efforts of premies, who have either donated their own money or made him the benefactor and shareholder in a multitude of their businesses. What did he do to deserve this?

He 'showed' Knowledge - but then this is supposed to be something we already have. Did he really do that? What do we really owe him? What do we owe ourselves in all this?

This Knowledge is by no means proven to be the sole property of this man in my opinion. I fail to see why it derives soley from him - why his part gives him such authority over people? Are we not all God's creatures too?? He's just winging it anyway isn't he? He's made mistakes hasn't he? Why can we not run with our inspirations and spread this knowledge ourselves?

Because he has, over the years, convinced us, from the outset, that this is not a possibility. Furthermore it is not allowed. It is a condition not to share this. It is to be a most private obsession. You are to refer people to the appropriate channel. (even if it is so cultic and cold as to be the last thing you would wish to impose upon your friends) .

What happened to us becoming 'like the Master'? Remember that? I remember hearing M saying we would all become like him. When??? When were gasping our last breath?? When you reach 70?

I strongly urge anyone who is a premie to really become proactive to engage Maharaji and premies to answer all their misgivings. I believe that most premies put their sincerity, their heart and soul into this with great trust. That is a lot to give. There is a lot to explain still.

When premies develop misgivings they should not be told to 'Walk' - to shut up -to bottle their feelings. The result of that practice is self-evident in this forum and the whisperings in the divided premie community we see today.
We should all re-unite. So-called 'exes' have not stopped pursuing the truth. I for one will never admit to being an ex-seeker, or for that matter an ex-lover of God. I owe it to my creator who I still love with all my heart to try to shed light on all the dark areas which I encounter where fear and confusion lurks. And so to bed.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:53:51 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: I thought your post was too long....
Message:

... just because I give you satsang, doesn't mean I have to read this long, well written, heartfelt, perceptive, post. Now, does it?

John.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That's no way to make friends, John
Message:

But it's nice to see you trying.

Jim
Possibly John's Only Friend

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:52:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Questions, Patrick
Message:

I think that premies / Maharaji are probably undecided yet as to whether to adopt a policy of strictly 'no negotiation' with critics, or whether some placatation may be considered inevitable.

Patrick, on what do you base this opinion that Maharaji is 'undecided' on how to deal with critics. Everything I have ever heard he has done in his entire life is to ignore, obfuscate, and denigrate critics. There have been scandals before. Why do you perceive this change?

Certainly many of the PAM's, despite their feelings of loyalty, do seem to be privately admitting that this forum and the revelations thereof are a healthy development. (the revelations are incidently almost all true as far as I can now see - anyway I am certain enough to put my name at the top of this post in good conscience) ...

So, having had the chance to talk a little with Mike Dettmers it is now quite clear to me (just from the emails he's picking up and from what he and these other callers have said) that there is really a lot of interest in this site at all levels.

This is more the effect in my opinion, in loosening the ties these people have with Maharaji, with their beginning to question his motives and morals. I assume you have talked to PAMs about this, but do they say it's healthy for Maharaji, or for them, personally? I wonder if admitting to YOU that this Forum and the revelations are a healthy development, translates into suggesting the same to any other PAMs, or horrors, Maharaji himself.

As I said down below, I would tend to discount the 'shredding' comment. BTW, was that anonymous person saying the shredding was going on because of this Forum? If true, I'm just amazed they didn't shred all that stuff years ago. And as for Maharaji reading this Forum, how does that person know? Indeed, I would tend to agree with Donner that Maharaji doesn't see it, and that premies are to scared to tell him about it. On the other hand, if he does read it, he sure is fucking miserable at responding, if the Elan Vital FAQs, and his reported comments are anything to gauge that on.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:34:19 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Questions, Patrick
Message:

hi these are my questions also...not falling into wishful thinking and hoping? real current PAMs are saying this?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 13:11:02 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: powerful stuff
Message:

Patrick

Many thanks. A powerful post. Lifted my spirits.

Abi

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:44:12 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Well said!! Thanks (nt)
Message:

xccxv

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 10:15:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: firecrackers.
Message:

Wow, great stuff, give it to me.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 02:32:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Go out not with a bang but a whimper NT
Message:

j

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:13:12 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: I remember M saying that
Message:

About how we would all one day be like him. Not sure that I would want to now. The point is he lied to me, he lied to us. As far as I am concerned any vows I made to him are off, including not revealing knowledge to anyone.

I haven't done it yet, but I think that someday I will and when I do it will be most liberating. More than anything because one more illusion about this whole trip will fall when I find out what the other party experiences. I can't imagine it being any different that what I got myself.

Years ago here in Portland there was a Bongo premie who stared revealing the techniques to many of the street people here and garnered himself quite a group of initiates. I remember the directives from the malibu headquarters to round up the perpetrator and all of those poor unfortunates who were mislead. It seems that they were all in dire need of being straightened out by a real mahatma and unwound otherwise they would suffer severe karmic consequences for all of eternity. This is the story that was passed down from the top DLM management anyway.

They never were gathered up, and for years I saw this one Bongo initiate around the NW area for years just hanging out as usual no apparent adverse effects from the experience, in fact I heard that he got off the street and quit drinking later. The Bongo premie was banished from giving satsang by the community and given the cold shoulder. He would crash satsang and the premie houses and give satsang anyway so that didn't stick. He is still around town somewhere. The only damage he suffered was the rejection that was heaped on him by the cult. He was always around because his wife and child at that time were living in a premie house and even though he was ostracized he would visit all day and sneak in the window at night. They later divorced for other reasons, she was his biggest defender for years.

If someone sincerely wants to find out what these techniques are all about, fuck it, I will show them. No strings, no master attached, no head trip included. Why not? I still enjoy meditating from time to time.
I always have, only now I have separated the master from the meditation and it has improved the quality.

'Become just like him one day he said', he is offhandedly right about that now that I think about it, he is quite like the not so special person, falling prey to the same temptations and corruptions as any anyone who abuses power. He is the same as a lot of low life conmen who take advantage and exploit others.
Master my ass.....

In that light, I or anyone else is more than qualified to reveal the techniques. This is the way the knowledge was originally intended to be spread anyway. In India either right up front as a renunciate or after so many years as a householder, anyone could choose of their own free will to travel and roam as a holy man and share their blessings and reveal what they know to others. Unless they were so unfortunate to have joined a juju darshan cult and got stuck in master worship.
That was mainly peasant class country style dogma though, the upper class could read and would not buy into such nonsense or dependance.

I personally incountered a roving sage while in India, all he possessed were the clothes he wore and a bowl to eat from, he had the same knowledge to share, and there are thousands more just like him.

Think how fast knowledge would spread if everyone shared it amoungst themselves.

I am being quite radical, I know.... But if m wasn't so greedy and making this a personal business that is the way it would go.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 01:31:58 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: thanks 4 sharing my rad idea;plan is proceeding(nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:48:12 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brian you are not radical but sensible
Message:

Interesting story about the bongo Lone Ranger giving K to street people. Someone who was one of the aspirants I took care off in 1980 started to give K during homosexual orgies in his flat. I was so upset with this that I cut him dead and would no longer have anything to do with him but I did not report him. He is now the City Contact in A-----.

Knowledge should ALWAYS have been given simply as a gift from from friend to another. The religious and organizational trappings are simply there to keep the Rawat family preaching industry going. And we see the dysfunction and pain that the incorrect way of giving K has caused. There is only one correct way to give K - in a manner of loving one's neighbor as one loves oneself.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:42:13 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Amen Mahatma Pat Ji, I mean that sincerely
Message:

High soul

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:48:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Gettin high with a little help from friends, Brian
Message:

Hope to enjoy some good jazz with you soon.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 08:37:36 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: The Document Shredders
Message:

Thanks for this post. Shredding documents, under certain circumstances, can constitute obstruction of justice. If everything is so grand in the land of EV, why destroy documents?
Possible explanations, but which this report only suggests, and does not prove (that's for you libel attorneys and EV monitors):

They fear lawsuits are brewing and are destroying evidence which would support the legal claims that might be brought against the cult.

Evidence of criminal and civil financial improprieties exists and is being destroyed.

You know, getting rid of documents is one way to draw the attention and interest of federal law enforcement officials. Thank you very, very much for this. And thanks to the person in Miami who gave you this information.

If I were you Attorney Robert Jacobs, and Milbank Tweed, I'd be very concerned about this report. Nasty stuff, this.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:33:21 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No matter how much they shred,there is still a lot
Message:

of incriminating documents, paperwork, photos and publications floating around out here.

Whomever is in possession of any offical DLM, or EV material keep it safe and handy for future use is needed.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:28:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:

I don't disagree with your opinion, Patrick, but what proof do you actually have that anything on this website or Forum is doing anything more than encouraging M to stick his puffy face further into the sand?

An anonymous post about shredding documents (I can't believe they didn't do that many years ago, so this is of little value), and about M being 'relieved' (I don't believe that for a second), aren't exactly proof of anything.

And just what PAM's are 'relieved.' Certainly not Glen Whittaker. Who?

Sorry Patrick, but your post sounds more like conjecture than anything else. Nice thoughts, though.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 17:50:11 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:

what proof do you actually have that anything on this website or Forum is doing anything more than encouraging M to stick his puffy face further into the sand?

Let's be clear about this. I was just reporting what I heard - verbatim. A PAM told someone this who called me and said 'post this' - I said OK but you read out to me now how this is to be worded, I want it to be clear I am just passing this on. This person is someone I totally trust. Trust is all I have to go on here and I have never suggested otherwise. If Maharaji personally calls me and says 'I am relieved that people know these things' I will be the first to let you know. Until then it is merely what I was told by a trusted friend.

Now, I know for sure that many premies consider it to be a very desirable outcome that Maharaji and EV are more open and accessible about things. Premies are not all so stupid as to not see the benefits of openess at all levels . It seems to me quite probable that Maharaji is becoming more comfortable with the idea of people knowing about all these things. After all, he must be rather pleased that he has not been judged so harshly as maybe he expected or feared in the event of his 'un-doing'. (fear has to have been the motive for cover-up).

Also he has little choice in the matter. He cannot afford to 'stick his head in the sand' further, because the vast majority of his followers are actually people of integrity and conscience who will not stand by and give him the benefit of the doubt ad infinitum. What we are not going to see though is a sudden about turn. He will want to 'reform' in a way that does not involve 'losing face'.

So there we have it. The ex-premies have done him the huge service of exposing his cupboard skeletons that were in danger of engulfing him with corruption. The irony is that premies will see this, much like Clinton's dramatic public apologies, as further proof of his strength of character, and thus also further proof of the meaness of ex-premies for pointing out his inadequacies in the first place. He is so influential now that he cannot lose.

Remember he is also now a multi-millionare. I don't suppose anyone could take that away from him if they wanted. He may quite happily 'retire'. Maybe one of his kids will carry on the family business.

An anonymous post about shredding documents (I can't believe they didn't do that many years ago, so this is of little value), and about M being 'relieved' (I don't believe that for a second), aren't exactly proof of anything.

I am certain this was a factual report. Maybe they are just shredding the documents because they don't want to have to pay for storage any longer. However I would guess that it's no coincidence that they are doing this at this time when they are particularly concerned to forget this sensitive part of premie history.
'M relieved.' Maybe this is wishful thinking on the PAM's part. We'll see.

And just what PAM's are 'relieved.' Certainly not Glen Whittaker. Who?

It's Maharaji who they say is relieved. I wouldn't be so surprised. Despite all these revelations, Maharaji has actually retained a great deal of respect from those who are so pleased with Knowledge or are so loyal that they cannot consider the contradictions. It's a bit like Sinatra or someone - generally perceived as being a wonderful singer -the fact that his ferocious temper compelled him to try to push someone out of his 'plane because they served him a bad egg, or was involved to the hilt with the Mafia is overlooked. It's called turning a blind eye. OK Maharaji is not Sinatra but you get the principle, the analogy. Premies are so concerned with what they get from him, that they don't care if he has an adverse effect on others - maybe as long as it's not them that is. Notably, they don't even wish to put this in the equation. I call it a lack of social conscience - lack of empathy -lack of judgement - narrow-mindedness etc. How about 'selfishness'?

I also think there is an analogy wih the British train robber who in the UK had a particularly devastating effect on the poor guard he coshed to stop the train. When, however he reached the relative safe haven of South America, he was as pleased as Punch that his generosity (with money that was not his - although at first that was not known) disposed the locals to revere him as a most generous and kind man. In fact he became something of a local hero and even his reputation as a train robber somehow added to his status as a folklore hero.

It is a quirk of human behaviour that such a person is publically often never really judged in a very balanced way. It's amazing how as long as someone provides you with something you want you can overlook the fact that they may be treading on someone else. We're a selfish lot! There are so many examples of this in the world.

Sorry Patrick, but your post sounds more like conjecture than anything else. Nice thoughts, though.

What percentage of all the rumours have you heard about all this have turned out to be true aginst those that now seem false?? 98%? I trust the people I speak to and in almost every case the things these people have told me has been corroborated by others and turns out to be true.

I have no desire to be cryptic for no reason. In the past I have had people confide in me these sorts of reports and sometimes it is clear that they want me to post them kind of on their behalf because they have their own reasons not to do so.

I have in the past sometimes refused and at other times felt that it would be a great shame not to share these things which are telling. In this case I don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by giving away names.

Thinking about it, I confess that I have become more confident, and increasingly comfortable about passing on these sorts of messages. Mainly because there is nothing that these people have told me over over the years which has, in the end, turned out to have been untrue - and on the contrary - what they have said, that even I could not at first believe , has been corroborated by several others independently as being actually quite true! Sometimes just the tip of the iceberg in fact.

So I am not in any position to prove anything of course, and yet it would seem to me very likely that the vast majority of what I hear is truthful, and I see that there is some value in breaking this cycle of secrecy to all concerned. It would seem that there is some agreement about this even amongst the 'x-rated' themseves and now, the 'x-rater' himself!

Do you think that Maharaji is beyond even the slightest pang of guilt?

I hasten to add that those things that have been posted here which have been later denied or proved untrue have not been from my sources of information.

I only listen to people with whom I have developed mutual trust and respect . Only those people who have an investment in believing these reports to be false, have complained. They of course are usually conspicuously not in a position to really know. They just need to deny, obfuscate and preserve their delusions. What needs to happen perhaps is that some people may like to offer some proof that these things are NOT true. I think that is more realistically the stage we have reached here.

Quite frankly, it is no longer an issue with most premies as to whether these things are true or not. They are now mostly inured to accepting the truth about what goes on behind the closed doors of both EV and Maharaji's house. What some people are struggling with is what they are to make of it all - whether this changes anything for them or not- whether this tells them anything about how trustworthy he is as a Master. That is a struggle for many.

As we know many premies still consider that Maharaji's personal behaviour is not an issue and that it does not reflect on his validity as a Master. They consider the good out-weighs the bad I guess.

It is a symptom of the atmosphere of 'us and them', the secrecy and cover up that has gone on, that now one has to accept that 'whispered rumour' is often the most reliable, if not only way, to get the fuller picture.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 00:53:07 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:

hi again i should have read this before i sent the message now above...gee, i'm almost ready to pay up on the bet after reading the above.

your point is excellent re the belief system about the good out weighing the bad. that was what kept me around in the last 2-3 years in the 80's. but the blaming, last of judgement, never taking any responsibility finally took its toll and i began to know within my heart that indeed the means is really the way and especially with m we always lived with the means, not the end...and he was mean to the end.

the same story...the ends justify the means. this process of m's was the message to those around him daily. it became the operational tone of his whole package...just like his hawaiian shirts at one point, or rolex watches for the instructors, etc.
as he did, so did those around him do.

glad to hear that some around him are beginning to wonder about whether the ends to really justify the means. with some it will take more years of abuse then already to shake the tree.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 10:57:44 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: donner
Subject: Ends justify the means: Jones and Rawat
Message:

Thanks for that bit of information. You'll be interested to know that Jim Jones used that little phrase as the foundation for running Peoples Temple.

I have it on good authority that Captain Rawat hates to be compared with other cult masters, esp. Jones and Koresh, so I point out these similarities every chance I get.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: every chance you get?
Message:

Marianne, that would interfere with your law practice, you would be doing nothing but posting here all day and night.

Rawat is a CLASSIC cult leader, included as the archetype in many books on cults!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: A bit cryptic, patrick
Message:

Thanks for the clarification, Patrick. If the rumors (and I have to leave it in that category at the moment) that Maharaji follows what is said here are true, it will be interesting to see if that manifests in any way. So far, it hasn't, as far as I can tell. His behavior has not changed.

Now, I know for sure that many premies consider it to be a very desirable outcome that Maharaji and EV are more open and accessible about things. Now, I know for sure that many premies consider it to be a very desirable outcome that Maharaji and EV are more open and accessible about things. Premies are not all so stupid as to not see the benefits of openess at all levels.

Perhaps, but premies are also not so stupid as to want to have embarrassing things admitted to by Maharaji. As it is, there is still deniability, or at least a question about whether or not it's true. If M admits it, then it's confirmed. Plus, admitting and accepting responsbility are two different things, and the latter I doubt will come anytime before hell freezes over.

It seems to me quite probable that Maharaji is becoming more comfortable with the idea of people knowing about all these things. After all, he must be rather pleased that he has not been judged so harshly as maybe he expected or feared in the event of his 'un-doing'. (fear has to have been the motive for cover-up).

Maybe some premies do, and many premies couldn't care less. Also, you have to look at the alternative. If Maharaji isn't more open about things, so what?

It seems to me quite probable that Maharaji is becoming more comfortable with the idea of people knowing about all these things. After all, he must be rather pleased that he has not been judged so harshly as maybe he expected or feared in the event of his 'un-doing'. (fear has to have been the motive for cover-up).

Yes, but non-admission leaves open 'plausable deniability.' I wouldn't be so sure that so many premies even know about these things and if they do, without his admission, they can retain the idea that it isn't true. Plus, admission about the alcohol, sex, drugs etc., doesn't even address the real issue in my opinion, which is that Maharaji portrayed himself as God and then pretended he never did.

Do you think that Maharaji is beyond even the slightest pang of guilt?

Unfortunately, I think this may well be true, at least as to his personal behavior, and his 'perfect master' behavior. I see no evidence that he has ever felt guilty or remorseful about anything.

That's why I think it's best to focus on his followers, and the effect that information has on them, rather than him. So, I agree that the 'stuggle' a premie would go through about all this is the significant event, at least if it causes each person to take a step back and question what it is they are involved in, and tacitly and actively support, financially and otherwise, by that involvement.

Then, if Maharaji lost all his followers, he would be in trouble and that might really motivate him, although I'm not sure what he would really do about that.

 

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 03:19:29 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ends justify means- reform or more revisionism
Message:

Patrick W said: ''He will want to 'reform' in a way that does not involve 'losing face'.''

Uh-huh. I hope it makes his premies happy. I personally don't care about any socalled Master. I would however take pity on him if he wore sack cloth and ashes and begged in the street.

These PAMs that Patrick knows must be the saintlier type of premie. There are also quite a few unprincipled ones who have stuck by Rev Moonbeam through all the scandals. The latters' mentality is amply demonstrated by the premie mischief makers who post here.

The end always justifies the means to socalled leaders, masters and other totalitarian, authoritarianism. This is more spin-doctoring.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:37:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: All I can say is ** Best Of Forum** post!
Message:

This one post is a powerful editorial and deserves a prominent place in the archives. And best wishes to Michael Dettmers on his various quests. Perhaps Raja Ji will be posting soon? The more the merrier.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: FA et al: Request reg ***Best of Forum***!!
Message:

I've renounced reading all the forum posts long time ago, and it's become very hard for me to track the best posts.

Would you please keep illuminating the threads holding ***Best*** posts this way ?

Thank you !!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:33:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Thanks, Patrick , for the info and your essay
Message:

You said: One of my main bug-bears has been simply 'Why do I have to feel embarrased about introducing loved ones to this experience?'. I wish to God I had the strength of faith (and hadn't been required to vow not to do) to show this meditation, with love and care to those who were interested....Why can we not run with our inspirations and spread this knowledge ourselves?

My main disappointment with Rev Rawat is the way he has either blown K out of proportion (in the beginning) or has currently cheapened it to Auto-K. My break with him was initially precipitated by this disagreement. I stuck with him because I felt that it was best to present K in uniform way but I now think that is not necessary.

He could have given us K and said go show others but of course it would then not have been a money-making business. Also there would have been mini-cults developing and quite a few really looney applications of K. But now I think who cares. The techniques after all are unimportant. It is still up to each individual to use them as they please.

As for vows: they are superstitious nonsense and not binding contracts in a courts of law. Rev Rawat also broke his vows to take care of the renunciates who entered the ashram system.

I think you would make a wonderful teacher and I would love to spend time with you talking about K. I have no intention of setting myself up as a teacher but I will definitely show my loved ones something that I enjoy.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:55:38 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: p.s. on raja ji
Message:

i think raja ji gets off pretty easy around here. i gather he is in uk on m's business, touring to support m's message. he knows all this stuff about m, much more...how can he continue to support him...why does he?

ask him about his part in the detroit, halley, fakiranand story...he stirred that pot good back then. how raja ji and m shared women...raja ji is in it for the free ride...at least that is what m always contended about raja ji. the whole idea of keeping your potential enemies close.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:40:42 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Raji Ji is a parasite on a parasites ass
Message:

He really has gotten off easy on all counts, some one who knows should rattle his cage.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:51:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Raji Ji's ''Propagation Tour'' 1999 1st big drip
Message:

It was so obvious that he was drumming up business for his keeper. The hired hand doing the dirty work for the Mob Boss. Yuck!

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: raja ji
Message:

'i think raja ji gets off pretty easy around here.'

Yes, he does. Btw, what's his real name?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:18:24 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: G
Subject: raja ji = Daram Pal Singh Rawat (or Dharam) /nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:08:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: 'Dharam Pal Singh Rawat' is correct
Message:

think 'dharma'

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 16:22:52 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Where does he live? How much loot?
Message:

Does he have more than one house? I know he's getting a lot of money out of this, I heard him bragging about his very expensive audio equipment, the same way that Prem brags. Prem talked about him ruining a Mercedes and thought it was funny. Dharam (aka 'Raja Ji') might be getting more of the take than we think.

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 06:05:52 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Where does he live? How much loot?
Message:

Miami Beach in a very nice condo right on the intracoastal. And yes he does have a fetish for expensive audio/video gear - I helped install some of it in the condo. But he's also a 'successful private investor' ;)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:47:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: doing service all the time
Message:

That is priceless Patrick. HA, am speechless really leave it to M to find a way to rationalize even this place. I feel so much better now, knowing I am helping out.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:34:34 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: latest from me
Message:

what a great post. so real and sincere...thanks.

(i'll need more then that to send the $50 on the bet) who says he is reading exactly? alvaro, patrick mckracken?

are you saying that now m will not have to keep his serious alcohol problem a secret, or his blaming nature quiet any longer...that those around him are glad this is all out in the open now...his two pack a day habit his lying nature regarding his ownership of the technology of one way to go inside for some peace and connection to self...his use of the excuse to spread k as a means to accumulate more wealth? amazing turn of events if so. his acceptance of his past statements...why are they shredding those documents in that case...(i stil have my signed vows etc as an instructor/initiator.) are they shredding all those huge blue files so many premies struggled over the applications to be instructors that m never read or really ever cared about...just make work for some of us around him.

interesting stuff

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Date: Tues, Mar 27, 2001 at 14:42:28 (GMT)
From: bill-no way has he either
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: understood or accepted 'the past'..nt
Message:

sfbngs

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:29:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Shredding the documents! - thanks, Patrick! (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:18:41 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: latest from me
Message:

Well said Patrick- I concur 100%.

As rawat challenged everyone to face the truth in their lives,
It will be interesting to see how he will face said truths which
presently stare him in the face. How much integrity will this
'master' bring to the table? It always irritated me that he
had nothing but scorn and derision for any other teachers-
Nows his chance to put up or shut up.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:14:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Really wonderful -- thanks
Message:

If Mike ever does see Raja Ji tell him to say hi for me. He'll recall that I was the guy he met with for a drink and to whom he admitted his own frustration that Maharaji stonewalled him as well as the rest of us regarding who he thinks he is, etc.

Jim
The Former Holy Family's Friend

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:51:35 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I don't have any friends....
Message:

.... can you please sign off a post as JHB's friend? It would make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:04:12 (GMT)
From: Pat the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: But I love you, you Latvian Irishman NT
Message:

h

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:19:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat the Fat Fag
Subject: Latvian Yorkshireman, please
Message:

but I've already had a go at Erika for misusing the word 'love'. Look we haven't met yet and I probably can't make June 2nd, so can we save the love for later?:-)

John the been around SF bay in a seaplane.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 23:23:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John: point taken, slap accepted
Message:

Should have said I loved (or enjoyed?) your posts. Until we find a better word I too do not like to cheapen it.

Pat, the silly old Irish fool.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:35:44 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Really wonderful -- thanks
Message:

Thanks for all your posts. I had a difficult day today and I needed to read these posts to be reminded of the scumbag of a person m is. Thanks from my heart.
Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:49 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Very powerful post. Just taking it in at the mo nt
Message:

X

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