Joe -:- What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:29:20 (EST)

__ sulla -:- Re: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:20 (EST)

__ __ Sulla -:- The breath and the swing -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:08:45 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Vital organs vs. Elan Vital organs -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:22:29 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- 'Elan Vital' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:58:16 (EST)

__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: 'Elan Vital' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right -- see Nigel's post (above) nt -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Silly me NT -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:08:18 (EST)

__ Pullaver -:- The Oracle and Forrest Gump -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:35 (EST)

__ RichMandrake -:- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey.. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:24:00 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Jack Handey was Al Franken -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:50:26 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Just for fun, my analysis -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)

__ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Joe, it's so EASY to understand... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:17:23 (EST)

__ __ Andrew Davidson -:- $$$ BEST OF FORUM $$$ [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:53:28 (EST)

__ Joy -:- M doesn't actually say anything -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:09:45 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Well done, Joy and (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:48 (EST)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:56:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:48:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Ken Campbell -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:32:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Course you can come, Barbara... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:56:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Course you can come, Barbara... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:45:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That would be SO COOL -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:21:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Yes, indeedy -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:32:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:02:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Flags at half-mast..? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:59:11 (EST)

__ __ Nigel -:- Excellent post, Joy -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:23:26 (EST)

__ Gregg -:- Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:50:13 (EST)

__ __ such -:- what pajamas? hohoho [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:19 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- It's not, Oh well , there goes that concept nt -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:58:48 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:05:53 (EST)

__ __ __ Yoko -:- Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:38:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- That could be a rap song. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:18:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: That could be a rap song. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Great post, Joe.. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:00 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- How to Listen to Satsang... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)

Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:29:20 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it.
Message:

I have heard some people say they find what Maharaji says inspiring. Actually, even as a premie, I can say that is something that was never, ever true for me, although I might have said it sometimes.

When I listened to M, I just tried to turn my brain off and 'be open,' because if I thought about what he was saying, it was ridiculous. Amazingly simplistic and dumb. Because those thoughts constituted 'doubts' and because Maharaji commanded me NOT to doubt, I did my best to just let what he said waft over me with no analysis whatsoever. In today's premie jargon, I was trying to listen to M with my 'heart' instead of my 'mind.'

But what he says is really stupid, perhaps mixed in with some things that are maybe kind of reasonable. For example, the following is from M speaking in Rome in June, of this year:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

Is he trying to say we might die at any time? I guesso, but I'm not sure. Okay, let's assume that. What 'elbow room' is he talking about? Then, he says:

There is no room for error. Your existence isn't a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is not a shock absorber. Life is not a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is none of these things.

What mistakes? What error? What is the difference between 'existence' and 'life?' What the fuck is he talking about? So what if life isn't an elastic band in your pajamas? He makes no sense, and yet this is what they chose to print in the Elan Vital online newsletter, supposedly because it was the most profound statement in his satsang. Again, I assume he is trying to say you might die at anytime. Okay, let's assume that. True statement, but hardly inspiring.

Next, he just drops that discussion and starts talking about breathing:

You need to begin first by recognizing this breath. In theory, it should be incredibly simple for the living to understand the value of the breath because without that, there would be nothing. Without that, you would merely turn blue. Without that, your brain would not function, your eyes would not function, your ears would not function, your hands would not function, your heart would not function, your kidneys would not function: nothing would function. You would think that there would be a recognition of its importance, but there isn’t. Everything else comes in between - all the concepts, all the ideas, all the preferences.

Okay, so you need to breathe and it's important. True, maybe your heart would stop beating if you weren't breathing, but you would also stop breathing if your heart stopped beating. That's just as true.

You also have to have blood flow, a nervous system, a functioning liver, and a bunch of other elements of the body or you couldn't breathe either, at least not for very long, and just like not being able to breathe, losing your nervous system, the thing that tells your body to breathe, would also make it impossible for anything else to function. So why doesn't M say that first you have to understand the value of your nervous system, or brain? Why breathing?

And even if you could breathe, if you didn't have oxygen, it wouldn't do any good anyway, or if you had breath but no lungs, or lungs but no circulatory system so the oxygen could do your body any good, you wouldn't have life either. Why not just pick one of those things for what you "need to understand" the value of?

The point is, why does he pick BREATHING as this thing YOU NEED TO RECOGNIZE as having profound importance for 'life' above all else when other things are equally, and perhaps MORE important? [I mean, I was taught in first aid in Boy Scouts that if someone was both not breathing, and bleeding from an artery, it was MORE important to stop the bleeding first, because the person would die sooner from loss of blood than lack of air.]

Does M do this because he is trying to tie breath into 'life force' and that to the 'word' meditation technique (now technique number three)? If you think about it, it makes no other sense.

And if so, why do you need light, music and nectar techniques? What are they for if it's the breath that's important?

I am CONVINCED that the only way people say that they find M inspiring is because they DON'T actually listen to what he says. That's why if you ask a premie to tell you what, in content, Maharaji said, they are usually unable to tell you, except maybe for the 'joke' M told, or the general gist of being reminded of the value of 'life.'

The first time I realized this phenomenon was when I brought a person whom I respected to see M for the first time, in about 1981 or so. She was polite, but after nearly falling asleep while M rambled on, she told me later that there wasn't any content in what M said, that it was disjointed, and made no sense.

I remember thinking at the time that was because she was listening to the 'words' with her mind instead of her 'heart' or some such nonsense. Then I thought about that thought, and I had a major DRIP.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:20 (EST)
From: sulla
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it.
Message:

I also notice this obsession for the breath. I had the impression that he meant that God is in the breath. It sounded so weird for me,and more weird when he was talking about a baby who was breathing for the first time after he was born, and how this breath made him to be alive and an individual, independent of the mother, not part of her mother's body any more, but himself. I really was wondering if I heard this reasoning before in the pro abortion movement. I believe that the baby was alive since the moment of conception, and an individual human been even while in her mother's womb.

Sorry about misspells or grammar errors.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:08:45 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: sulla
Subject: The breath and the swing
Message:

When I received K it was explained to me that breath was the vehicle to go to a place inside so I could feel the experience of the holy name. I wasn't told that the experience was in the action of breathe. My husband was told to make a noise, and visualise M in a swing, but he couldn't do it that way, because while the breath went up and down with the sound, the swing went from left to right. I think M is so confuse now, he is trying to understand and explain things that he himself doesn't understand. He is changing all the foundations of this K trip at his will and understanding. I would rather follow Satpal, at least he is more authentic.

Oh my God! Another premie calling me to find out what was going on with me, we started arguing and I had to tell her that I was going to believe that even if Maharaji was the devil she would follow him. I would! she answered. I can't believe it, but I heard something like that lot of times. I don't have patience. She doesn't care and she doesn't want to know. Why she ask then? She doesn't want to talked to me again either. It's OK.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:22:29 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Vital organs vs. Elan Vital organs
Message:

I guess the reason 'vital organs' are so-called, is because each is vital for survival and must, by definition, be equally vital - as you have so astutely pointed out, Joe.

The thing is, both 'breath' meaning 'life' and 'heart' meaning 'emotional core' are fairly standard metaphors in non-cult circles - and not bad ones when used as simple figures of speech. The trouble with M's use of the the terms is the way he thoughtlessly confounds 'breath' as process, or 'heart' as vital organ (physical) with 'breath' as 'life force' and 'heart' as 'elan vital organ' (supposedly 'spiritual') as if the literal apllications were interchangable with the figurative. Hence the irrational nonsense in the passage you quoted.

NB for folk unaware of the term's origin: 'Elan Vital' was first coined by the philosopher Henri Bergson to describe an unseen entitiy or life force which not only animates us (defines the difference between a live body and a dead one), but also serves as the guiding hand behind evolutionary change. Regarded by most scientists as cranky nonsense, Bergson's theory sits well enough with M's cranky nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:58:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Elan Vital'
Message:

I recall being at IHQ in Miami circa 1980, when the decision was made to change both 'And It Is Divine' and 'Divine Light Mission' to 'Elan Vital.'

Like Richard said, AIID was a pretty stupid name for a magazine, and the explanation regarding DLM was twofold: First, we wanted to get rid of the 'Divine' implications and second, M wanted to create the pretense that EV and DLM were 'different' organizations.

I do recall somebody at IHQ, might have been Dennis Marciniak, talking about how the name came from a French philosopher. I don't know who suggested the name to Maharaji, but it's certain HE didn't do the research. At the time, he was still spouting his profoundly anti-intellectual nonsense, even saying he had never read a book himself.

As we know, at least in the States, Elan Vital is nothing more that DLM with a name change, and even on the current, shrunken EV website, it states that EV has been around 'since 1971.' The name change did not even happen until 1986.

So, the magazine title got changed, but it remained a gaudy, grotesque publication, with almost nothing but garish pictures of Maharaji with his corpulent face sticking out of Krishna crowns. I am told by people from SHIP that his pictures had the zits air-brushed off of them. I don't know if they also air-brushed out a few of his chins.

The 'satsang' in them was heavily edited, but still unreadable. And NOTHING else was in the magazines anymore as there had been in AIID. Remember the stories on Yuri Geller, and even a "Womens' issue?" The focus of the EV magazine was entirely on the worship of Prem Pal Singh Rawat/Guru Maharaj Ji.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: 'Elan Vital'
Message:

Joe, the French philosopher was Henri Bergson, early 20th century. Haven't been able to find out who originally suggested 'Elan Vital'.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Right -- see Nigel's post (above) nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:08:18 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Silly me NT
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:35 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Oracle and Forrest Gump
Message:

Actually the reverse seems to make a trifle more sense:

There is room for error. Your existence is a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is a shock absorber. Life is a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is all of these things.

As Forrest Gump said with more poignancy: life is a like a box of chocolates. . .

Speaking of Forrest Gump, how about these Gumpisms?

Forrest Gump: My mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

Mrs. Gump: Remember what I told you, Forrest. You're no different than anybody else is. Did you hear what I said, Forrest? You're the same as everybody else. You are no different.
Principal: Your boy's... different, Miz Gump. His IQ's 75.
Mrs. Gump: Well, we're all different, Mr. Hancock.

Mrs. Gump defines vacation: Vacation's when you go somewhere... and you don't ever come back.

Jenny Curran: Do you ever dream, Forrest, about who you're gonna be?
Forrest Gump: Who I'm gonna be?
Jenny Curran: Yeah.
Forrest Gump: Aren't, aren't I going to be me?

Forrest Gump: My name's Forrest Gump. People call me Forrest Gump.
Drill Sergeant: Gump! What's your sole purpose in this army?
Forrest Gump: To do whatever you tell me, drill sergeant?
Drill Sergeant: God damn it, Gump! You're a goddamn genius. That's the most outstanding answer I've ever heard. You must have a goddamn IQ of 160. You are goddamn gifted, Private Gump. Listen up, people...

Forrest Gump: Now for some reason I fit in the army like one of them round pegs. It's not really hard. You just make your bed real neat and remember to stand up straight and always answer every question with 'Yes, drill sergeant.'

Drill Sergeant: ...Is that clear?
Forrest Gump: Yes, drill sergeant!

Forrest Gump: He was from a long great military tradition. Somebody from his family had fought and died in every single American war. I guess you could say he had a lot to live up to.

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does.

Mrs. Gump: Don't you be afraid, sweetheart. Death is just a part of life, something we're all destined to do.

Mrs. Gump: I happen to believe you make your own destiny. You have to do the best with what God gave you.
Forrest Gump: What's my destiny, Mama?
Mrs. Gump: You're gonna have to figure that out for yourself. Life is a box of chocolates, Forrest. You never know what you're gonna get.

Jenny throws several rocks at her former home and then collapses in tears.
Forrest Gump: I guess sometimes there's just not enough rocks.

Forrest Gump: I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is.

Forrest Gump: My mama always said you got to put the past behind you before you can move on.

Forrest Gump: I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floatin' around accidental-like on a breeze. But I, I think maybe it's both, maybe both happening at the same time.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:24:00 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey..
Message:

In the early '90s Saturday Night Live had a Poetric/Prose Skit called 'Deep thoughts...By Jack Handey'. It featured incredibly dumb and disjointed Poems...made funnier by their attempt at Profundity.

There was a cast member back then named E Whitley Brown (or something like that). I had heard that he was a premie and had created the Skit based on Maharaji's Poems. Anyone know anything about that???...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:50:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Jack Handey was Al Franken
Message:

And I think you mean E. Whitney Brown, who was on SNL but was never a premie, as far as I know.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Just for fun, my analysis
Message:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

{Tongue in cheek} or maybe not, this could be interpreted as an inside glance into m's psyche. Musing over the way he views his past, predicting his own future.

the past has forgotten you.

Sounds like he is speaking of his own hopes for his past revision system to actually work and the LOTU, DLM, stuff, etc. is forgotten buried.

Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

This sentence seems like he is fearfully pondering his own future, Precarious, walking a thin line, no elbow room.

Propagating bunko juju knowledge in the age of real information has him freaked out.

You just have to look real hard, read between the lines to get his real meaning Joe.

Brian the proof reading psychoanalyst

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:17:23 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, it's so EASY to understand...
Message:

... you really were listening with your 'doubtmaker', not your heart.
Let me explain. For example:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

This is to make you paranoid (for your own good, of course). You think you are o.k., and you forget about The Master. But in reality, nobody cares about you, at least not enough to remind you to breath and be grateful. Only the Master can do that, which is why you NEED Him, and should never doubt Him. If you do doubt Him, you may just slip right off that thin rope, and end up like decomposing vegetable matter, or even worse, as a complaining ex-student posting on F7.

There is no room for error. Your existence isn't a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is not a shock absorber. Life is not a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is none of these things.

I just can't believe you don't see the profound message here, Joe. The Teacher is clearly explaining that we need Him. There is NO ROOM for ERROR - so we'd better watch out, and stay close to He Who Never Makes Errors! He's not called the Perfect Master for nothing, you know. Without The Master, we are just fish caught in a net, happy that we're going to have our heads cut off. How could anyone doubt that?

And of course he is right to tell us that life is not like rubber products. He's saying that even though you are a premie, shitty things are going to happen in your life, because life is not a shock absorber, shit happens. So when shit happens in your life, even though you are following Him, it's not his fault. It's lifes fault, which is why you need Him, even though he can't stop the shitty stuff from happening anyway. He's not here to solve your problems, but here to remind you that you NEED HIM. As He wisely says, ''No man has ever saved himself''. And don't start nit-picking, like asking ''saved from WHAT?'' All premies know the words are not important.

You need to begin first by recognizing this breath. In theory, it should be incredibly simple for the living to understand the value of the breath because without that, there would be nothing. Without that, you would merely turn blue. Without that, your brain would not function, your eyes would not function, your ears would not function, your hands would not function, your heart would not function, your kidneys would not function: nothing would function. You would think that there would be a recognition of its importance, but there isn’t. Everything else comes in between - all the concepts, all the ideas, all the preferences.

Now this part is SO important, SO profound. You see, NO ONE ELSE in this world will tell you how important it is to breath, and be aware of it. He's told us many times, that NO ONE ELSE will tell us about the breath. All those yoga teachers who teach the techniques to just ANYONE, and don't ask for money, are just charletans who are not supporting Maharaji's work. People need to be reminded of the importance of their breath, but if they don't hear it from You-Know-Who, then it isn't worth Jack Shit.

Maharaji 'saves' us from all those ideas, concepts and preferences that come between us and our breath. And you can't buy that in a book somewhere, or have some yoga teacher or friend show you how to concentrate on your breath, because Maharaji doesn't make any money when that happens, which means his important work and and lifestyle are not supported. That is just plain WRONG. That's also why the techniques are secret, to prevent that sort of thing from happening. He is so wise!

And you go on and on about the techinques, you are SO unsyncronized! I mean EVERY thoroughly modern PWK knows that the actual techniques themselves are really quite incidental. That's why they've ended up on DVD, the Teacher is tired of talking about them, he'd rather talk about Himself and how we need to be paranoid about thinking we don't need Him. THAT is what is important.

As the Master has evolved over the years, he's given less and less importance to the techniques, and more and more importance to Himself, to the point where he makes very few claims about the techniques at all anymore, because they are unimportant without Him. The Gift means NOTHING without the Gift GIVER, who is so much more important than the Gift. If you had Kept In Touch like you were supposed to, you would know that. So don't talk to me about the techniques. I never talk about those, THAT sort of thing is for Churchladies.

If you weren't so busy being unsyncronized and filtering out the Good, I wouldn't have to explain all this. But I do explain, because I am kind and good, and not in a cult. But don't you try and trick me by asking me questions! I'm following the Teacher's example, and letting you know beforehand, that I DON'T WANT ANY. That was so thoughful of Him, and now it's thoughtful of me too!

Andrea Eriksonn,

- Who know's for sure that life isn't confusing when you only Consider This, not THAT, and who knows that rubber products will always fail you, but The Master never will, because it's not His fault that the elastic band in your pajamas always breaks eventually. As Maharaji once said, "Don't thank God, thank the Master." And I thank Him that I'm not in a cult! :)

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:53:28 (EST)
From: Andrew Davidson
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: $$$ BEST OF FORUM $$$ [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:09:45 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: M doesn't actually say anything
Message:

Hi Joe. Good points you raise. I think people (or more specifically, premies) find M inspiring because they are not listening with their critical faculties at all, they are projecting onto him that he is the Lord of the Universe (and whose idea was that?) and therefore ANYTHING that M said or did would be constituted to be inspiring. In the past, when I was under that spell, even the slightest glance from him would be enough to send you into rapture for days. I remember one time when Dennis Murphy (M's cook) brought me back in some tinfoil some half-eaten gulab jamuns which I had made for him and I was blissed out of my gourd that the LORD had actually eaten something I'd cooked. Now, under normal circumstances what would be one's reaction to some sloppy, half-eaten leftover food presented to you in tinfoil?

I, personally, have listened to thousands of hours of his satsang, and transcribed many, many of the speeches, and there really is nothing memorable said in it at all. Just surrender the reins of your life to Guru Maharaj Ji and all will be well. (Back when he was saying that more overtly than he is now. I guess now it's just surrender the details of your credit cards to Maharaji the Master and all will be well [for him].)

Your friend was still in possession of her faculties and not under the cult spell of phoney devotion and hence was able to see it so clearly for what it is (mind-numbing drivel with no real content whatsoever). As any thinking person would when they initially come into contact. Hence the lengthy 'aspirant' process which helps shut down those critical faculties and slowly steeps one in the brainwashing necessary to get into 'that feeling' and find M inspiring. I remember it took me several satsang meetings to finally 'get it'. Everyone's initial reaction is almost invariably 'Huh??'

If you don't somehow see and listen to him through the filter of his supposedly being divine, there's no way anybody could find what he says inspiring. The nightly news reader on television is more inspiring, really. In fact, I think his talk is specifically oriented towards shutting down those critical faculties, because it tends to go around in circles and never really comes to any logical point and is delivered in an arrogant and sneering fashion which implies you know nothing and are a dummy (because you're not blissed out all the time) and he is somehow in possession of more wisdom than you. It's patronizing in the extreme.

Hope all's well with you, look out for a Christmas card from me in the mail,
Joy

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Well done, Joy and (OT)
Message:

If you don't somehow see and listen to him through the filter of his supposedly being divine, there's no way anybody could find what he says inspiring.

That really sums it up, Joy. You have to have the mindset FIRST. After that, you would be inspired if he just drooled.

I already got your card. Man, you are getting things done early! Have a great holiday.

So, it appears definite that Kevin and I are going to Eng, Scotland and Ireland, but not until May-June, I think leaving Memorial Day weekend. Kevin wants to do a walking trip on the Dingle Peninsula in the middle, which I think is about 8 days. So, it will be England first, followed by Wales, then Ireland, then a ferry from Belfast to Scotland, then back to London and home. Think we can do that in 3 weeks? I do want to see you, so that will likely be either at the beginning or the end of the grand tour.

Getting this committment has been a major victory for me. Kevin has been unwilling to take a longer vacay due to his relatively recent position at the Tides Foundation. But I eventually won him over.

So, it looks like Cuba is out and the British Isles are IN.

In the meantime, maybe I can come up and see you in the States when you are back.

When we went to see 'The Closet,' I was reminded of all those many French and German films we went to see during our decompression from the ashram and the cult. While 'The Closet' was great -hysterically funny, it appears, unfortunately that the French film industry has gone to hell, another victim of Hollywood, I am afraid.

BTW -- Watched Ab Fab on Monday night. They had a rerun of my favorite episode, the one where they go to Morocco and Patsy sells the daughter into white slavery. So funny.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:56:01 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:

Don't forget to check out the hometown of me, Moley, Merseybeat, Magiclara, Larkin and Loafji.

'A splendid time is guaranteed for all...'

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:48:39 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:

I might be in your neck of the woods around June, possibly the same time as Joe. I'm helping some friends make a documentary on Ken Campbell who, I think, is from Liverpool (Sci Fi Theatre etc.).

If so, perhaps I might invite myself to join Joe, you, et al.?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:32:10 (EST)
From: Ken Campbell
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:

Great actor/producer
Really funny antagonist for Basil Faulty
when he gets Polly to pretend to be Sybil
:)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:56:19 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Barbara
Subject: Course you can come, Barbara...
Message:

Amazing you are doing a documentary on Ken Campbell. Fantastic guy. Did you ever see him as 'Oscar' in Brookside?

Will you be meeting him? Can you bring him along too..?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:45:14 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Course you can come, Barbara...
Message:

I've seen Ken C. in a movie where he plays a hotel clerk (can't remember the name), and I have a tape of one of his one man shows. I've got his CD Won Ketonka (sp??), about his visit to the islands where the inhabitants worship the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh and his riffs on pidgin English. I just printed out a 400 page thesis on Ken which I have yet to dive into.

Since my friends think my humor etc. is similar to his, they want me around when he's being interviewed, so if I can steal him away to join us, that'd be tres fun.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:21:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: That would be SO COOL
Message:

It would be great to see you there, Barbara, and maybe we can get Joy to show up as well. And please, bring Ken along. I'm sure you would have pithy things to say about the ex-Lord of the Universe.

The general outline of the plans is leaving Memorial Day weekend and connecting up with the Brits either early in June, or maybe later on the way back. No firm plans yet, so maybe we can wait to hear when you are there and plan accordingly.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:32:59 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, indeedy
Message:

One of the producers is going over in January to do some background work, so I'll have a better idea of the time frame when she returns.

Would def be fun.

I've always wanted to do a walking tour since I love to wander around like that. Your trip sounds great. Hope the timing works out, too.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:02:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:

Yes, I did think of that. Maybe we can work something out, maybe with Joy included. I didn't realize all those exes were in the same vicinity.

Are the flags still at half-mast?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:59:11 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Flags at half-mast..?
Message:

Not while Liverpool FC are three points clear at the top of the premier league for the first time in a decade...

But many sad faces and nostalgic reminiscences for sure. And the Town Hall flag was at half-mast on Saturday.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:23:26 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Excellent post, Joy
Message:

So well said. A++ (I am the middle of a major marking binge and writing like yours craps on the tedious drivel I have to deal with). Moley says she'll give you a bell in the next couple of days.. (can you email your phone no. again, Thanks.)

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:50:13 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:

You're absolutely right about the relatively content-free nature of M's speeches. What a rambler.

I'm not sure he's talking about death in those two snippets you quoted, about 'elbow-room' and 'life is not a shock absorber.' I think he's talking about the need to be fanatically one-pointed, to not leave room for doubt in the mind, etc. It's the fear-mongering that is the stick that accompanies the carrot of Knowledge.

If you space out, you see, and get involved in 'the world' instead of servitude to God in the Flesh...that is a very dangerous thing. You will lose everything. He's mentioned 'rotten vegetables' and the like a few times, but usually he speaks in code, like he does here, to avoid being nailed on the charge of threatening his followers with hell or damnation or something like most religions do to help keep the faithful queuing up with their donations.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:19 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@nude_eden.org/y
To: Gregg
Subject: what pajamas? hohoho [nt]
Message:

we don't need no stinkin' pj's! hahaha

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:58:48 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: It's not, Oh well , there goes that concept nt
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:05:53 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:

Interesting. I thought about that too. Kind of the 'tightrope' of being focused. I think it was sometimes referred to as 'the razor's edge.' If that's true, it's even more ridiculous because it's not supposed to be about fear of falling. According to M, I understood it was just about 'enjoyinglife.'

I think the point is, it's not about anything except connection to the uberlord.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:38:23 (EST)
From: Yoko
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:

It's more like a plastic ono band when you are on the 6 lane freeway headin to the court of love at the feet of the master tree who looks down at all the weeds as there is only one true master at any one time who, of course, is timeless as well as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent
The Big Giant Head

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:18:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Yoko
Subject: That could be a rap song.
Message:

well done

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: That could be a rap song.
Message:

They don't call me the mutthha JJ KOOL-j XP(that's ex-premie to you ole fogey dudes) for nutthin
I say thanx but I'm too hard and cool
b

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:00 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Great post, Joe..
Message:

Stay tuned for further thoughts - very closely related to your thread (ie., why is it there are no 'writings' of the corpulent Muddlehead avaiable to the needy public?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: How to Listen to Satsang...
Message:

Hi Joe,

I remember when I was an aspirant back in '75, I was told that ''it'' meaning satsang was not about the words, but about the communication between the satsang giver and receiver. ''Don't worry if you don't understand something that's said, the understanding will come to your heart, this is not like regular communication, but from soul to soul.'' Well, I ate that one up obviously because I received k and joined the ashram.

This was a rationalization for all those muddled and nonsensical words from not only Maharaji but any premie who stood up to speak. It was an explanation that satsang, company of truth, was from one heart to the other, and the words were virtually meaningless. Juju. I remember folks would say stuff like ''Oh that person's so clear.'' Supposedly, the more one did meditation and service, the more clear a premie became. Pure BS.

Later, in 1997, when I tried to go back and revisit my connection to m, so many changes had taken place and no one was allowed to speak about anything. I thought (very naively), that as a premie who had been around during the devotional years and had returned, that some kind of explantion of all the changes would be given to me, either by a community coordinator or an instructor, i.e., why premies don't give satsang anymore, etc. But noooo. All I was told was to listen to Maharaji's videos/tapes and all the answers would come to me. I was especially given dirty looks when I mentioned I had been around M during the Deca years. I couldn't figure that out. Secrecy and juju again.

Well, no answers came, and here I am.

Revelations did come, but not exactly what Maharaji would have wanted me to discover. One drip came before I read EPO because of all the secrecy, unreasonable demands for money, and the lack of care for old time premies returning. Part of that drop included the elitism within the cult such as the apparent special attention given to big donors.

The second drip was my trip to Montreal to see him for the first time in 16 years. I felt absolutely nothing. I looked around after the program and many premies were in a trancelike state with that glazed over look in their eyes. I didn't have it. I didn't feel it. Nada. Nothing. No connection whatsoever! There was chaos in the Divine Sales area though, pushing, shoving, and more dirty looks. Glad I never paid for that program LOL!

The final drip was that horrendous ''satsang'' which I heard live over a satellite feed where m tore into premies about not being grateful enough to him for everything he has done, i.e., he saved our lives. Actually, that was the first time I heard him mention Phase II (now called the 'it's time for me phase.' He proclaimed that he had fulfilled Shri Maharaji's agya by bringing k to the world (yeah) and that Phase II would inlude training sessions for premies who wanted to be part of the team for propagation (sure). Yet he was vague about it and didn't get into details, but they would be forthcoming.

He cursed a lot (it was live and unedited) and was in such a pissy mood I just left after the feed very very angry at him. My first thought driving home was ''how dare he talk to me like that!'' I also thought, ''when has he shown premies gratitude for everything sacrificed for HIM?'' That video was edited.

I think because I had worked in the world, especially my employment as a Personel Director for a large law firm, without any contact with m or premies for 16 years, that I had grown older and wiser...even wiser than I ever thought him to be. Lawyering is so much about words and clear writing. I learned very much from working for and with attorneys, so I was more tuned into the words than some magic I was supposed retrieve from watching m on tv. What is this bullshit I asked myself? Even my husband (poor guy) who I had earlier insisted watch videos fell asleep during them at home. I took him to an intro program. Nothing. He would comment about how simplistic m was said stuff like ''Gee, Cynthia, I always knew a sunset is beautiful, a rose smells wonderful, what is this guy trying to sell?''

I'm grateful that once I got to EPO my doubts were confirmed and validated. I'm especially grateful I never got my husband initiated into the cult.

Cynthia

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