nagual rain -:- some wise man said...(.it wasn't me) -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:41:56 (GMT)

__ Gary E. -:- You're right you are not a wise man -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 01:22:16 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- Great Post, Gary - ***BEST of FORUM*** -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:56:21 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- No he isn't, Gar, but you sure are (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:31:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gary E. -:- 25 years, a bottle of Jim, and EPO (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 05:59:56 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- some wise man said...(.it wasn't me) -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:58:26 (GMT)

__ G -:- The definition of 'cult' -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:15:41 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Let us not forget the jerk who said. 'It IS me' -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 21:19:59 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- nagual, the meaning -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:40:15 (GMT)

__ __ Gary E. -:- nagual, the meaning -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:35:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- nagual, the meaning -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:18:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- and even more broad ... -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:33:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for that Stonor -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:59:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for that Francesca! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 12:01:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Nice talking with you too -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:09:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Castenada was a TOTAL fraud (and asshole) -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:25:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Need info on 'Castenada was a TOTAL fraud' /OT -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:22:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Tell your friend to read up on it, Carl... -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The BEST forum archives search is -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:13:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Thank You !!! I was wondering when I'd have a -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:10:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals -ot- -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:10:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Thanks much! I'll forward it to my buddy.. /nt -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:24:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Carl, I did a long post on this once -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 06:32:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- but Castenada's stories sure were good on acid -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 08:08:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Some people read Lynn Andrews too BARF --n/t -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:14:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Who's that?-----------------n/t -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:43:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- New agey female shaman books -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:22:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- New Age equivalent of valium and martinis -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:41:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Keeps Shirley McLaine in spare change LOL n/t -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:32:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- nagual pronounced, ''Nag you all?'' - NT -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:51:41 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- leave but be quiet about it like the others? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:22:53 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Revenge, understanding and public service -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:11:29 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- SO what are you doing here, preachy teachy??? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:03:33 (GMT)

__ __ Carl -:- BINGO! You said it, Frenchy! -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:35:06 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- EPO is not a cult and we are not hate-filled -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:25:23 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- I am going about my business -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 15:07:18 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- '..and that is my business'.... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:33:35 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- BEST OF FORUM *** great post ;o) ---n/t -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:07:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- I agree - Richard's post: BEST OF FORUM! -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:54:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- You are too kind, Francesca -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:41:18 (GMT)

__ tonal nagual -:- a yawn brings oxygen into the bloodstream -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:48:39 (GMT)

__ cq -:- you need to know the definition of the word 'cult' -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:15:28 (GMT)

__ Bob -:- stop rawat -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:05:42 (GMT)

__ Toby -:- some wise man said...(.it wasn't me) -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 13:07:26 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- You are wrong -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:30:51 (GMT)

__ __ Tony -:- You sure are wrong. -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:53:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tony -:- PS You show me a premie who has achieved -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 13:06:22 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 11:41:56 (GMT) From: nagual rain Email: None To: Everyone Subject: some wise man said...(.it wasn't me) Message:

there is a group of people who have been following a spiritual master but despite the fact that they been doing service nite and day they have not achieved the ultimate goal of freedom and liberation..so they left and now form a group of people of their own.. they have gone back into society but not to normality..they are like a ship without a rudder................ ............and form a new cult of anti cultists ( these last words are mine ).....why can't you just quit and just go about your business like so many premies who somehow just leave the 'practising premie' scene...you are no different from prempal who has a mission in his life, to spread k...your mission is to frustrate his aims...2 sides of the same medal..locked up in your head , in duality...to me the main cracks on this site are a bunch of very disappointed, desolute , hate-ridden fanatics ..there are others as well...but haven't you got something better to do with your life than preaching anti-maharajiism? you may think you are doing a great job...but really no one out- side the premiefold is interested..you are not preventing any new aspirant from receiving k...i mean you are obviously enjoying your own company and are extremely happy when some elan vital big wig changes sides..oh yeah, maybe some premie who is frustrated and isn't sure may get psychological help.(all you sisters of mercy you are not departed or gone...) this reminds me of the christian sects,their inner circle battle: the adventists had specialists who were out to convert the bap- tists, and jehovas witnesses had special cracks who were out to convert the adventists....take it as a fact epo is no more and no less a cult than elan vital is, you may think differently, but how can you judge as long as you are IN the cult.... but anyway, i enjoy reading all that stuff and now i go out and enjoy the nagual rain's about to fall......

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 01:22:16 (GMT) From: Gary E. Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: You're right you are not a wise man Message:

A wise man having investigated this site in it's entirety, not just the forum, can arrive at only one conclusion. Mahooey is a master only in his own mind, and even that is debatable. People who hung out with him virtually day in and day out for years got a chance to see behind the curtain of the wizard of oz and what did they see? Read the Bob Mishler interview, read the Michael Dettmers expose, and Michael Donner's revelations for starters. Read about the guru lineage and the Radsoami Beas tradition of revealing these techniques. If you have been a follower for over ten years consider the revisionism regarding m and the cult posted on the EV site. Ponder the flip-flops from Lord of the Universe, to Guru (who is greater than God), to Perfect Master, to Master, to Humanitarian Leader, to Regular Guy, to Speaker, to You Know Who and ultimately (for aspirants) the secret that you find out and must accept about Maharaji if you want to receive knowledge. Consider that many errors in judgement and advice have been made by m regarding ashrams, the need for people to give up everything to work for years refurbishing an obsolete aircraft, regarding people ignoring family, friends, relationships, career etc. In fact, the turning point for me personally was realizing that mahooey never accepted personal responsibility for plans gone awry and the fallibility of his advice. I perceived that when major things didn't pan out the way m said they would he would blame others and embark on an obvious PR campaign to smooth the ruffled feathers of the party faithful. For instance after the plane and ashram debacles he held many programs, some in a question and answer format, at least one (Miami) which included a casual sit-down dinner with m's family at the head table, and others with m showing up to actually meet and greet premies at reception-like events. The purpose of this PR campaign was to 'de-mystify' (M's and EV's word not mine) mahooey, get him off his throne and bring him down to street level like one of us. This was a blatant attempt to mollify the masses after so many gargantuan errors in judgement - look, he's just a regular guy, he means well, he's not really God in a Bod. But then, slowly but surely the whole machinery started up again and here we are back with never doubting the purity of the master, darshan and arti for the true believers. Whoever you are, you must understand that the overwhelming majority of people who post here on FV are not hate-filled, semi-human serpents (naga as is in naga rain) with nothing better to do. Everyone has been a premie just like you but we have decided to face the incongruities, deceit and revisionism head on. To not have the wool pulled over our eyes anymore. To fully understand the whole picture. To stand on our own two feet without fear or coersion. To help others see what's going down and to help ourselves in the process. I also still find fulfillment within but do not credit or need m for this purpose. I truly hope that you take the time to consider and govern yourself accordingly. Regards, Gary

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:56:21 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Gary E. Subject: Great Post, Gary - ***BEST of FORUM*** Message:

Mr/Ms Nagual's post has gotten some great replies. Thanks! Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:31:48 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Gary E. Subject: No he isn't, Gar, but you sure are (nt) Message:

ffffff

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 05:59:56 (GMT) From: Gary E. Email: None To: Jim Subject: 25 years, a bottle of Jim, and EPO (nt) Message:

shnarfle

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:58:26 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: some wise man said...(.it wasn't me) Message:

NG-- we get these kinds of posts here all the time. We all have our issues with cultic thinking to work out, but I don't think the individuals on forum 5 constitute a cult. One of the myths that comes up here again and again is that we're an angry bunch whose sole mission in life is to bring M down. I barely think about M in my life and I'm not an angry type person. I'm pretty much a person who likes to feel good, actually. But I think M is a bad person and I hate to see him hurt more people. This place is available to help people and to disseminate information. Do you think that living beyond duality means closing one's eyes to the reality of cults like Maharaji's that are out there today? Your post suggests that having a passion for something or a point of view means being trapped in dualism--*that* sounds like cultic thinking to me.'It's all an illusion, nothing matters except God/guru/bliss'--THAT'S CULTIC THINKING! I notice you haven't responded to anyone's posts on this thread...Don't want to stick around and discuss? Just want to dis????

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:15:41 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: The definition of 'cult' Message:

For dictionary (not made up) definitions of 'cult', see cult For your edification, below is part of what I posted at the 'Life's Great' forum, it is a comparison of the definitions of 'cult' with Elan Vital to see if the word fits. Try doing the same comparison with this forum and post your comparison. Just try backing up your claim. From the definitions: 'A religion or religious sect' Elan Vital is registered with the IRS as a church. 'followers often living in an unconventional manner' Can you say 'ashram'? Ok, not all premies live in ashrams, but some do, and how about travelling half way around the world to listen to 'Maharaji'. This is rather unconventional. 'under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.' Can you spell 'agya'? And what about the vow to obey his command? 'A system or community of religious worship and ritual' Can you sing 'Arti'? Did you sing 'Arti' at Amaroo? 'Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing' Can you feel 'adulation'? This word is actually used at www.elanvital.org to describe premies' feelings about a person who goes by the title 'Maharaji'. Premies have started smoking just because Rawat smokes, they have copied his manner of speaking, etc. Obsessive and faddish? I'd say so. 'An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.' 'you know who' says to not show these techniques to anyone for any reason. Esoteric means: . Intended for or understood by only a particular group: as in 'an esoteric cult'. See Synonyms at mysterious. . Of or relating to that which is known by a restricted number of people. . Confined to a small group: esoteric interests. . Not publicly disclosed; confidential. Elan Vital fits the definition of 'cult' to a T. Now how does this forum?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 21:19:59 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: Let us not forget the jerk who said. 'It IS me' Message:

Whoever drops by to read postings will learn about the truth of the matter. Not the Truth...cuz tha's Subjective, ask CW. If it wasn't for this site--I wouldn't of discovered the truth of the matter. Admittingly, it's not easy to digest. Hint: Good to puke first, then swallow truth whole. It's like opium, puking, interestingly enough, becomes part of the experience. p.s. I hope to see you direct your sentiments at the accused one day, methinks me detects another good writer. Talented and intelligent group these hate mongers are, don't you agree? Hopefully,we have some redeeming qualities.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:40:15 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: nagual, the meaning Message:

What kind of juju are you putting down? A nagual is a sorcerer, ala Carlos Castaneda. So what the heck do you mean by nagual rain? Are we supposed to be afraid of Maharaji's Master Juju curse for speaking out against him? According to several religions I may be going to hell, but I figure their hells are members-only, so they are probably the only ones going, if they think they are. Members-only heaven, members only hell. Kinda yin-yang, right???? Sounds like the veiled threats of another unbalanced poster. Hope you are taking care of your mental health, you nasty nagual thing. peace, f

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:35:18 (GMT) From: Gary E. Email: None To: Francesca Subject: nagual, the meaning Message:

naga (hindu myth) one of a race of semi-human serpents, genii (one of two-opposed spirits or angels supposed to attend each person, person who powerfully influences one for good or evil) of rain, rivers, etc. So Castenada aside, perhaps our interloper means nagal rain. However he/she does seem to fit the definition of a nag: find fault or scold persistently, annoy, irritate, provoke. The Garyman (boo)

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:18:40 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Gary E. Subject: nagual, the meaning Message:

It rang a bell, so I pulled out my Churchward (James) - According to Churchward you might both be right somehow and I might explore further (not that it's particularly relevant to 'Nagual's' post!): 'All the ancient nations copied the Motherland's [Mu] diagram - the Mayas of Yucatan, the Naga - Mayas of India, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Egyptians and the Pueblo Indians of southwestern North America.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 00:33:33 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Gary, Francesca and ... Subject: and even more broad ... Message:

I found this interesting discussion of 'Naga' here: The Naga It says first that it's root is Sanskrit, then that 'Naga is one of a handful of rare words surviving the loss of the first universal language,' and I doubt the Hindus brought it Central/South America. ;-) Excerpt below: 'The word Naga is rooted in Sanskrit and means 'Serpent'. In the East Indian pantheon it is connected with the Serpent Spirit and the Dragon Spirit. It has an quivalency to the Burmese Nats, or god-serpents. In the Esoteric Tradition it is synonymous for Adepts, or Initiates. In India and Egypt, and even in Central and South America, the Naga stands for one who is wise. 'Nagarjuna of India, for example, is shown with an aura, or halo, of seven serpents which is an indication of a very high degree of Initiation. The symbolism of the seven serpents, usually cobras, are also on Masonic aprons of certain systems in the Buddhistic ruins of Cambodia (Ankhor) and Ceylon. The great temple-builders of the famous Ankhor Wat were considered to be the semi-divine Khmers. The avenue leading to the Temple is lined with the seven-headed Naga. And even in Mexico, we find the 'Naga' which becomes 'Nagal.' In China, the Naga is given the form of the Dragon and has a direct association with the Emperor and is known as the 'Son of Heaven'...while in Egypt the same association is termed 'King-Initiate'. The Chinese are even said to have originated with the Serpent demi-gods and even to speak their language, Naga-Krita. For a place that has no serpents, Tibet, they are still known in a symbolic sense and are called 'Lu!' (Naga). Nagarjuna called in Tibetan, Lu-trub. 'In the Western traditions we find the sae ubiquity for the Naga, or Serpent. One simple example is the Ancient Greek Goddess, Athena. She is known as a warrior Goddess as well as the Goddess of Wisdom; her symbol being the Serpent as displayed on her personal shield. Of course, in Genesis the Serpent is a Naga who instructs the new infant (humanity) in what is called the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Christian church has, unfortunately transformed the Initiate-Teacher into a tempting and negative demon-character. An apocryphal tradition says that Apollonius of Tyana, while on a visit to India, was taught by the 'Nagas' of Kashmir. (See The Life of Apollonius, by Philostratos.) It is felt by many scholars of the Western Tradition that the life of Apollonius was taken from the New Testament, or that the narratives of the New Testament have been taken from the life of Apollonius. This is felt because of the undisputed and clear similarities of construction fo that particular narrative. 'Naga is one of a handful of rare words surviving the loss of the first universal language. In Buddhism, Wisdom has always been ties, symbollically, to the figure of the Serpent. In the Western Tradition it can be found as used by the Christ in the Gospel of Saint Matthew (x.16), 'Be ye therefore as serpents, and harmless as doves.' 'In all mythological language the snake is also an emblem of immortality. Its endless representation with its tail in its mouth (Ouroboros), and the constant renewal of its skin and vigor, enliven teh symbols of continued youth and eternity.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 02:59:29 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Thanks for that Stonor Message:

I've always been interested in nagas. I'm not sure which one he or she means, but I'm printing out your research. The reason I got the Don Juan sorcer connection is because of sites like the following: interview with Castaneda The Nagual Network Maya Quest Books on Nagualism Of course these folks could all be new agers that don't know squat, but it seems there is some Central or South American connection here. Of course, who knows what he or she means? Another hit and run artist. Poke a few times, and then when people start to ask 'what are you on about?' they go away because they have no answers. Hope that's not the case here, but thanks for the stuff on nagas. --f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 12:01:02 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Thanks for that Francesca! Message:

Hi Francesca, Yes, a lot Casteneda stuff came up first, so I changed the search to 'naga' and it broadened, but still include the Central and South American element. I've read Castaneda's first book, but couldn't relate to it - wasn't the kind of thing that interested me. I want to go back today and read the second one more slowly. Finding out what I called 'original' truth has been a lifelong interest of mine, so I appreciate this question coming up ... brought me a bit more information on the topic. When I was living in Lima in the mid-eighties, I read some fascinating Incan mythology in a book someone lent me - their creation myth had a brother and sister rising from Lake Titicaca a bit like the birth of Venus, and bizarrely enough, the girl had blond hair like in Botticelli's rendition of it. Their Viracocha myth is just as fascinating - claims that a male teacher called Viracocha, with red hair and beard, came to them from across the ocean. When he left he promised to return. The Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path) member and University prof who lent the book to me told me that when the Spaniards came they welcomed him with open arms thinking that it was Viracocha returning as promised, but that wasn't the case - the native population was, as they put it dequartizadoed (sp!!) or dismembered. The Sendero 'myth' goes that each 50 years, another part of their body is re-attached, and he said that in this 50 years their head (their leaders and wisemen who were all slaughtered right away by the Spaniards) is being joined. I have been following the news of the election (finally!) of Peru's first native president with great interest. Although they seem to be very Catholic, the reverence felt by them towards Viracocha amazed me. I asked a native woman one day about Viracocha and she seemed quite emotional as she replied that he was God. Sorry about the off-topic ramble on the off-topic, but that's what came to my mind, so I thought I'd share it with you. As far a Nagual Rain goes, I think that new posters aren't too sure how to enter into dialogue right away, so yes, maybe they poke a few times and then go away. But maybe they come back later and try it from a different angle. I think it's important to engage them in dialogue of some sort, as people here usually try to do, and be patient for a while. I had never posted at a forum before I came to this one, and I was quite confused and intimidated at first by the technology alone! ;-) That might be a factor as well. Nice talking with you Francesca. Anna

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:09:06 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Nice talking with you too Message:

Some of this stuff can seen slightly OT, but if this Forum isn't about out continual unfolding and studying, we'd be proving to people like nagual rain that we are truly stuck and hadn't/aren't moving on. This is not the case. Many of the people on this Forum fascinate me no end. love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 03:25:54 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Castenada was a TOTAL fraud (and asshole) Message:

I know something about this. A friend of mine published a book by an anthropologist who's an expert in the Huichol culture debunking Castenda floor to ceiling. There's nothing there. He absolutely ripped off Huichol stuff for his fake Yaqui sorcerer, Don Juan. Big long story but that's the point I wanted to make.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:22:07 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Jim Subject: Need info on 'Castenada was a TOTAL fraud' /OT Message:

Hi Jim, A very close friend of mine has recently gotten quite swept up with shamanistic concepts and the Casteneda stuff in particular. If you have any more details about the book your friend published, I'd sure like to forward that info on to my friend. Many years ago, BM (Before M.), my imagination was captured by all that Don Juan stuff also. A few mescaline trips, 'Tales of Power', and I felt I was there. Carlos did write convincingly, that is, he told a story that painted vivid pictures in my mind. Anyway, info on that book would be greatly appreciated, if it is readily available. But no sweat if it's hassle. Many thanks, Carl

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:43:40 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Carl Subject: Tell your friend to read up on it, Carl... Message:

Casteneda, an on-the-make, ex-pat Peruvian post-grad student never even went to Mexico. That's how fake we're talking. Did his sorceror's journey in the University of California library in lieu of proper anthropological fieldwork. To their susequent shame and embarrassment he fooled the 'experts' and got the doctorate, a trilogy of best-sellers and a cult following... Tell your pal that following a demonstrably bogus and dead fake is even worse for his mental health than following a live one who has yet to string together a logically coherent paragraph. Or maybe not. Ultimately, it all smells pretty much the same.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:13:07 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Carl Subject: The BEST forum archives search is Message:

drumroll, please -- Sir Dave's search engine Wish they had a link to it on EPO. It's absolutely brilliant. I got it from Jim. love, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:10:25 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Thank You !!! I was wondering when I'd have a Message:

spare month to seach all that material. Once I would start reading I'd need to read it all . . . ! Thanks for the SirDave search engine: it's in my 'Favorites: list now. Love, C.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:10:35 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Carl Subject: URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals -ot- Message:

Date: Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:58:16 (GMT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Eric Subject: URL for debunking Castaneda, Naguals Message: http://www.sustainedaction.org/ He was a big-time fraud. Spend some time reading the above site - it gives a false appearance of being other than a vendetta site against Carlos Casteneda. It's pretty cool. :)   reposted by JohnT

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 15:24:23 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Thanks much! I'll forward it to my buddy.. /nt Message:

yowza

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 06:32:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Carl Subject: Carl, I did a long post on this once Message:

Tell you what. Check the archives. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll tell you all I know. But, believe me, Castenada was a clear, blatant liar. Mind you, it's not that big a secret. It all goes back to his days at UCLA where he was a renown bullshitter. Only they ended up giving him a PHD for it! So check it out, let me know and we'll take it from there. 'kay?

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 08:08:05 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: but Castenada's stories sure were good on acid Message:

............turning into eagles and all that other stuff like Mescalito. He had a wonderful imagination. I've read several articles showing that he made it all up (duh!) which just goes to show that you can usually make more money out of fiction than fact. The human imagination - what a mystery it is for kids and primitives and a source of income for writers and gurus.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:14:16 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: PatC Subject: Some people read Lynn Andrews too BARF --n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 00:43:49 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Who's that?-----------------n/t Message:

j

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 05:22:35 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: PatC Subject: New agey female shaman books Message:

Medicine Woman; Jaguar Woman; Love & Power, Awaken to Mastery; Windhorse Woman, a Marriage of Spirit and on and on. I do read a little stuff on shamanism, but Lynn Andrews is over the top. Though my mind would rot if I read that stuff. Gotta stay 'old age' and watch out for that 'new age' stuff. Here's what Amazon says about Lynn Andrews: Lynn V. Andrews is the author of sixteen books, including the New York Times bestsellers Medicine Woman and Jaguar Woman. She is a preeminent teacher in the field of personal development and spirituality, and is the founder of The Lynn Andrews Center for Sacred Arts & Training. No shortage of people out there waiting to be led! love, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 19:41:14 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Francesca Subject: New Age equivalent of valium and martinis Message:

I guess I am prejudiced. Too much of that kind of stuff in SF and I just have to smile politely. I'm really out of the New Age loop. I tend to think of it as being the equivalent of stuff for bored housewives who are nowadays more educated than they were in the sixties when two valiums, a martini and a bodice-ripper from Barbara Cartland relieved the suburban boredom.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:32:16 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: PatC Subject: Keeps Shirley McLaine in spare change LOL n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:51:41 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Gary E. Subject: nagual pronounced, ''Nag you all?'' - NT Message:

h

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:22:53 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: leave but be quiet about it like the others? Message:

So you respect people more who leave and feel no obligation to speak out about why they left?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:11:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: Revenge, understanding and public service Message:

Oh yeah, fun and entertainment. I post here because I always care about other people I once worshipped as God. In fact, I care a lot about them. They're part of my internal landscape, someone I'll never forget. In this case, that's Maharaji. And because I think he's a fraud I want to fuck him up a bit. This site and all the stuff ex's have done has most certainly accomplished that. Like us or not, agree with our efforts or not, that fact is now beyond dispute. I also post to better understand myself and the person I was back in my late teens and twenties. A lot of pieces have fallen into place because of all this. Try it. Try talking about yourself here. Reflect a bit. You'll see. I also post for the Gary E.'s and Scot Jameson's of the world. Sorry, but once I realized what a trick this Maharaji cult was I wanted to tell all the people I knew who were still into it a bit. Why? Human nature, obviously. More specifically, maybe just because I'm a nice guy. What's your excuse, NR? Why do YOU post here? By the way, have you posted anything on Pia's site yet? Why not? She's waiting for your contribution when you find the time. Of course the anonymity's got to go but, well, it's for a good cause, huh?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:03:33 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: SO what are you doing here, preachy teachy??? Message:

This is a tired saw. If you read each of these posts, they are not all 'hate-filled' so that old windbag goes down. Yes some people vent, and we don't like M, so we joke about him. People ARE leaving M's cult because of this site, and aspirants HAVE decided not to get any deeper into Maharajism because of this site. Look up cult in a dictionary. We have no common beliefs, and even some premies and people like you posts here. There is no membership. In fact, due to aliases like YOUR OWN, no one even knows who you ARE. There are athiests, agnostics, Buddhists, Christians and people of all sorts of personal beliefs that post here. Where's the cult? This is a friggin internet bulletin board. So that old windbag goes down also. So you don't like what we are doing? What are you afraid of? Why are you here then, and what are you trying to accomplish with your preachy, more-knowing-than-thou rants? Think about it. Namaste, f

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:35:06 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Francesca Subject: BINGO! You said it, Frenchy! Message:

I tell you, watching that EV, and now IAS (ItAintSo), spin and spin and SPIN, whew, it's making me dizzy. You gotta laugh though, the poor suckers: Fuzzy thinking, wishful, magical, nostalgic, in-denial, uncritical, mythologizing, infantile, co-dependant, goo-goo la-la-land of a thousand rationalizations. So MUCH wasted human effort to shore up, spin for, or conceal an 'emperor without any clothes'. EPO is merely the voice of the little boy who wasn't afraid to say out loud, 'Hey, he's not wearing anything at all!' And to produce a big full-length MIRROR to prove it! (Mirror = M's own words, recorded history, actions and results). Warm regards Fran, I wish I could have gone to the recent party. All best, Carl

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:25:23 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: EPO is not a cult and we are not hate-filled Message:

Dear Naugal Rain, I take exception to your characterization of the people who populate this website as not normal, hate-filled and like ships without rudders. Premies certainly love to say that these days; since they can't think about or respond properly to what we say, DIVERT the topic to making a personal attack on the say-ers. I would just like to tell you that no way are the people who post here hate-filled. Some have a certain degree of righteous anger at Maharaji and his con-game, but that is certainly a different thing from hate. I personally know seven of the main posters here and they are the most wonderful, funny, creative and loving folks I have ever met. They run restaurants, drive sports and electric cars, produce art exhibits and CDs, build houses, run seminars, have spouses and kids, rescue unwanted dogs -- if that's not having a life, can you please tell us your description of what is? No, in no way are the people here hate-filled towards premies or even towards Maharaji personally. We are ANGRY at the way he promotes himself as God in Person at the expense (literally) of his followers, enriching himself obscenely while they struggle to make ends meet. We are ANGRY that he lies about this and pretends to be only a meditation teacher. We are ANGRY that he promises to bring peace to the world and show people an experience of God when all he really has on offer are some common meditation techniques. And lots are ANGRY that he, for many many years, guilt-tripped us into living in his ashrams and devoting our lives to him, and then he turned around and just dumped everyone out of them, after drilling into people that it was a lifetime commitment. Nope, we don't buy the spiritual con-game that is Maharaji and his Knowledge, and are dedicated to helping people still struggling with it to get OUT, and helping people considering joining it not to. That's all. No hate-mongering here, just people who have seen through the nonsense and are trying to warn and help others (and have a good time hanging out and making friends with each other in the process). See cq's definition of a cult, that's what M's organization is, not this bunch of raggle-taggle ex-premies. I hope that one day you can see that, too. Yours, Joy (20 years an ex, has a life, and enjoys it too) P.S. What does Naugal mean anyhow?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 15:07:18 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: I am going about my business Message:

... why can't you just quit and just go about your business... I almost never respond to drive-by premies who want to set me straight, but you seem to be sincere. I did quit practicing K in 1987 after practicing consistantly for 14 years, including 3 years in an ashram and doing full time service for 6 years. I did not meditate or see M for 7 years and 'put it behind me' - I 'moved on' and more acurately - I matured in my view of M & K. It was a fun trip for an idealist and I quite enjoyed myself. Others here were not as lucky, but I have good memories of life then. What changed for me was gaining a sense of self direction and getting in touch with my inner authority (my rudder if you will). By contrast, M then seemed to be an impeccably presented but arogant and misinformed tyrant. He will be the first to tell you you need his direction, and if you still believe that, then you probably still do need an authoritarian leader. Religion begins where your imagination ends, so have at it and 'enjoy your life'. I reconnected with the M scene in the mid-90's and went to 3 Long Beach events. I thoroughly enjoyed reconnecting with my old friends and the nostalgia buzz felt familiar. But, the slo-mo poetry videos, the Divine Mall and moste especially M's condescending attitude eventually made it impossible for me to justify further participation. Why do I post here? I was drawn to this forum because, once in awhile, a thread would touch on the reasons I (we) were attracted to M & K, and what that was all about. Today I want to rediscover the person I was when I first encountered M & K and, hopefully, continue nurturing the healthy attributes of that person. I don't hate M or regret my time in the ashram - that was perfect for who I was then but I have grown. Today I do think M & K are misrepresented, M is totally out of touch with his followers and even himself, and EV is made up of essentially devoted and well meaning folk who are unwittingly enabling M to avoid personal responsibility. And that is my business.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:33:35 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Richard Subject: '..and that is my business'.... Message:

If you weren't such a gent you might have added '..and not yours.' Great post, Richard.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:07:50 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: BEST OF FORUM *** great post ;o) ---n/t Message:

great

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 15:54:49 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Francesca Subject: I agree - Richard's post: BEST OF FORUM! Message:

I used to try and write an answer to most of these 'get a life; you all are a cult; everyone here is a looser (sic)' posts. Richard's post says what I would have said far more eloquently, and I'd like to see it preserved so we can re-post it! (and so it can be read again.) Thanks Richard! Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:41:18 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Francesca Subject: You are too kind, Francesca Message:

I was just following inner agya from Subcommander Jean-Michel. ;>)

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:48:39 (GMT) From: tonal nagual Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: a yawn brings oxygen into the bloodstream Message:

And I will clarify things for you, N.R., since you apparently haven't been here too long. 1. We have lives! Families, jobs, intellectual pursuits and even spiritual paths! (In fact, almost without exception, our lives have flourished like explosions of colorful tropical vegetation since we stopped Rotting with Rawat.) 2. Some of us want to bring down M; some of us just wast to keep the truth about M online for aspirants and openminded premies; some just like the dialogue. (Like you?) We believe that one man should not be able to control all the information about his activities. That sort of megaspin reminds us too much of Joe Stalin and Nick Ceausecu. 3. EPO a cult? Please. - Gregg

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:15:28 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: you need to know the definition of the word 'cult' Message:

Premies DO revere Maharaji, you wouldn't deny that would you? However EPO doesn't revere anyone. Therfore EPO cannot (by definition) be a cult. . . . The Oxford English Dictionary (the big 20-volume one) has the following definition of the word: cult, n. [ad. L. cultus worship (f. colere to attend to, cultivate, respect, etc.), and its F. adaptation culte (1611 Cotgr.). Used in 17th c. (? from Latin), and then rarely till the middle of the 19th, when often spelt culte as in French.] 1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings. 2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; esp. in reference to its external rites and ceremonies. b. Now freq. used attrib. by writers on cultic ritual and the archæology of primitive cults. 3. transf. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now esp. as paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers. I think definition #3 fits premies to a T. Don't you?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:05:42 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: stop rawat Message:

fortunately this site does oppose m.s work quite effective. we believe that is a good service to humanity. Also, because a vital part of our life has been spent in DLM/EV, that does create a bond, a recognition. A lot of us go through the same patterns when finding ourselves back. Episodes of anger and grief are a part of this, fortunately that is not the end of the story. most of my time on this site I smile and feel very positive. But I do get passionate about wanting to stop the false guru, the world being a better place when he would just retire.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 13:07:26 (GMT) From: Toby Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: some wise man said...(.it wasn't me) Message:

yeah, yeah keep on talking maharaji mate. I think the main goal for most of the posters is to bring down the bastard. When that is established, this all might disappear. If you are really bothered by the existence of EPO, HELP US !!! So we are just taking responsability to help others , if we succeed the work is done. No new believe, no cult, that simple. Your examples are all about other sects who all claim to be valid forever(like maharaji). I think constant practicing has diminished your ability for accurate thinking. Toby

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:30:51 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: nagual rain Subject: You are wrong Message:

Nagual Rain said:- you are not preventing any new aspirant from receiving k.. This is wrong. Ex-aspirants have posted here their thanks for the site and the forum. It is impossible to say how many potential aspirants have avoided the cult by reading here (but never posting) when they were considering accepting Maharaji as a teacher. As far as the rest of your post is concerned, countering Maharaji's and EV's lies is a worthwhile thing to do with some of our spare time. And that's the point, we do have lives outside being ex-premies. Reading and posting here is only a small, but enjoyable, part of my life. John.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:53:55 (GMT) From: Tony Email: None To: Nagual rain Subject: You sure are wrong. Message:

I personally know of 4 aspirants that have been put off by this site.They were full on aspirants and then came across EPO.They read the info on the site and read some of the posts and then decided that M and K was not for them and left.I think this site is having a big effect on premies and aspirants.I don't see it as a cult at all.I see most of the people on here as doing premies,aspirants and recent exes a huge favour.This site and the forum helped me in my exing and I am extremely gratful to all and sundry.Ok,so there may be some very angry folk around here,but i think there anger is quite warranted in view of what some of them have endured.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 13:06:22 (GMT) From: Tony Email: None To: Nagual rain Subject: PS You show me a premie who has achieved Message:

freedom and liberation and I will show you someone who THINKS they have achieved these things.Is it the bible that says 'judge him by his fruits'?well, I never saw it in premies.They talk about it like it is reality and that they are experiencing these things but I don't think premies really do at all.I think it is just part of the whole brainwashing mindset that goes with the cult.

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