Premies
& Ex-Followers
Discussing the Techniques
Part 1
Part 2: The Secret & Sacred techniques.
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The following is an excerpt of different threads over the Knowledge Techniques' issue, between Ex-Followers and Premies on the Ex-premie.org Forum.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 06:54:07 (EST)
From: JELLY
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Name the BOOK!
Hiya!
Everyone keeps talking about how one can read the Knowledge techniques in meditation books.
Which ones?
I need a title of a book where all four techniques appear.
Thanks.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 07:53:59 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: JELLY
Subject: Name the BOOK!
Hi Jelly,
The techniques are mentioned in many standard books on yoga, of which the most well-known are two major treatises on yoga, GHERAND SAMHITA, and HATHA-YOGA PRADIPIKA. These are the two perhaps most important books on yoga in India, they're almost as important as the Bhagavad-Gita (well, almost). The techniques are very well-known. In the US, they are taught by Yoganananda's Self-Realization Fellowship, by the Siddha Yoga-group, byh the Radhasoamis, and so on.
Most yoga teachers, fake gurus, and many others have written commentaries to these two treatises, Gherand Samhita and Hatha-Yoga Pradipika. Ask in book stores dealing with books of this kind. For instance, Satyananda, Shivananda, Ma Yogashakti, you name them, have all written commentaries. If you know someone who have studied a little sanskrit, you can ask this person to help you around, too.
I mentioned this already in my journey (Happy Heretic). Then Jean-Michel asked the same question as you, and I sent him more exact details in a previous thread a few days ago. You can look that up. He has now incorporated everything very beautifully into his site.
I can answer more questions if needed.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 11:57:22 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Which Techniques..?
Happy...exactly which technique is mentioned in these books...Light, nectar, word, music or only light...can you be more specific...The gurus u mentioned dont teach all the techniques at once...some tech only Light for example....
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 12:58:38 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Which Techniques..?
I'm a little in a hurry right now, and I feel it's a little old information already, but I'll try to make a quick reply.
In the books mentioned (Gherand Samhita and Hatha-Yoga Pradipika), all techniques are clearly mentioned. Check a thread originating from Jean-Michel on the 13th this month, it might even be in the inactive index now. But you can go directly to his website, that'll be quicker. Maybe they're not EXACTLY as Prem Pal teaches now, but the differences are, in my opinion, cosmetic! They are variations on the same theme. In that sense, Prem Pal is fraudulent in claiming that they are 'secret' and handed down from master to master through a certain lineage. That is pure nonsense.
With respect to SRF, Siddha Yoga, etc, they go stepwise into teaching first more simple things, then more complicated techniques. The Radhasoamis don't teach all 4, to my knowledge. In that sense, you are right.
But I'd like to add that I have, due to my work, been able to travel quite extensively in India. Both before and after my involvement with M, I took a keen interest in yoga, I studied with several teachers before M. After getting tired of his obvious lies, I skipped him, and checked several other teachers out. (I also got pretty severely burnt, which I describe in my journey). Anyway, I assure you, the four techniques are really hyped up by M. They are perfectly well-known and taught by literally hundreds, if not more, other teachers and self-styled gooroos.
I'm not saying they're ineffective - for me at least, they worked.
But one thing that always troubled me was that M was teaching EXACTLY THE SAME 4 TECHNIQUES to everybody. That's one thing more sincere teachers never would do: every student comes from a different place, and needs individual teaching and guidance. Any sports coach would know that, it's the same. You can't have everybody following the same guidelines or program.
For many people, meditation doesn't work at all, and then it's pointless to frustrate them with such practices in the first place. Others get something out of hatha-yoga (e.g. asanas and pranayama), but they don't feel comfortable meditating.
Some prefer karma-yoga, jnana-yoga, and so on - I don't know whether these terms mean anything to you. People are very different, and need different things. Anyway, no sincere teacher (if there are such, sometimes I wonder) would give exactly the same teaching/practices to everybody.
I was always very uncomfortable with the fact that M. did not give individual teaching. Clearly, he was/is a poor teacher, and no wonder most of those he 'initiated' into his 'secret Knowledge' left him!
They couldn't get into, neither him, nor his K.
I'm not saying yoga/meditation is the 'answer' at all, my personal opinion is at the opposite rather skeptic - although I meditate regularly myself. IMO, you cannot solve neither your personal nor your existential problems with yoga. My own point of view is that extreme caution has to be taken towards all spiritual claims within yoga/meditation. We have to keep in mind that it was a system created within a Hindu religious context. Especially, the whole idea of 'following a guru' or master, is IMHO very dangerous, and it's really a very medieval concept. One's mind and personality gets crippled.
I guess all of us who read and post here agree on this. But, that does not mean that meditation automatically would not be useful: I think many would testify that meditation works better without that damned guru!
(It became a longer response than I thought)
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 13:31:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: More about the 'techniques'
I couldn't agree more with Happy!
I was pretty much dissatisfied with m's teaching since the very beginning. I would experience the 'group high' phenomenon undoubtedly, but was very frustrated with meditation.
As I was sure that there was something to experience in meditation, because I had some friends having good experiences with it (they'd learn it before from other yoga teachers), I searched for a qualified teacher.
And I did a 10 days Vipassana course, got satisfied with it, and finally started to have an experience with meditation.
I still stayed involved with m, and that was my biggest mistake.
He is NO qualified meditation teacher, and there are very good reasons for this!
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 19:23:42 (EST)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: thanks Happy
'I'm not saying they're ineffective - for me at least, they worked.
But one thing that always troubled me was that M was teaching EXACTLY THE SAME 4 TECHNIQUES to everybody. That's one thing more sincere teachers never would do: every student comes from a different place, and needs individual teaching and guidance. Any sports coach would know that,it's the same. You can't have everybody following the same guidelines or program.'
Thanks for that Happy, at long last a possible reasonable explanation of why so many sincere 'seekers' & 'practitioners' of k have so little effect from the practice of k.
As someone without experience of other similar teachers, and because it worked for me, I was pretty bemused about why it hadn't worked for others.
Didn't believe that bullshit guilt trip gm used as cover for hisself. It fits remarkably well with all the other incompetencies he has shown, but especially his disinterest in his followers.
Long-term, I'm finding the historical background to the territory the most rewarding aspect of this site, because it's the area of the greatest lack in my understanding. How many of us came in as amazingly naive in the whole area of yoga & meditation!
Much appreciated.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 20:12:53 (EST)
From: HALIP
Email: None
To: JELLY
Subject: Name the BOOK!
I have here, sitting on my desk, a book written by Kirpal Singh, which I bought in New York in the early 80's and published by Sawan Kirpal Publications in 1981, called 'NAAM OR WORD'. All 4 techniques are described very clearly.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 11:38:56 (EST)
From: Halip & Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'satguru' Kirpal Singh
Yes, Kirpal Singh (deceased now, I think) was a competing offshot of EXACTLY the same branch as Hans ji Maharaj. He was very popular in India at the same time as Prem Pal was 'discovered' by Western hippies. I think those who went Hans Jayanti in India 1972 must remember all the ads for Kirpal Singh in Delhi. Kirpal Singh was a competitor of Hans Ji.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 13:48:40 (EST)
From: Stevei
To: Everyone
Subject: Proof of Techniques of K
Happy's posting and Jean-Michele's web site prove beyond doubt to Anyone who knows anything about Yoga ...and Patanjli's system...that these technqiques that M talk about are very ancient and work..they have been practiced for 1000's of years...
This we have to establish as fact...and that is why they work for me...probably nothing to do with M...but the technqiues are Fully valid....
I think this is really important to establish as Apriori that the 4Ks are cool...
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 13:56:54 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Proof of Techniques of K
Would you explain what you mean when you say the techniques of K ''work?''
They never did anything for me and there are lots of people who experienced nothing using them.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 14:14:04 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: none
To: gerry
Subject: Proof of Techniques of K
I'm curious about this too. It seems like the techniques work for some and not others. Is it brain chemistry? Is it a placebo effect? I don't think the techniques work for mj either, it seems like you need a certain kind of innocence for them to do anything for you.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 14:48:24 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Proof of Techniques of K
Would you explain what you mean when you say the techniques of K ''work?''
Baffling, isn't it? I haven't the slightest idea what this means, either. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Maybe we're just too much into our minds, Gerry.
Surrender. (Whatever that means)
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 15:15:52 (EST)
From: Stevei
mail: None
To: gerry
Subject: 4K Then and Now
OK Here goes...but you know we will fall into Jim's trap that it can all be explained by Bio feedback or Brain Feedback loops or the Modren Psychoanalysis bibles..
OK WHAT WORKS FOR ME:
I received K many years ago....1972 to be precise...
I imediatly went into retreat for 3months practicing K...
I guess I practiced K intensely for 10 years....after that I did not put much effort...
1. Light Meditation: With the Light Meditation..I get the usual Halo in the head...the stars that type of thing...never seen any person or persons...just white Light....I think if you read all the Litreture on NDE (Near Deat Experience...Mostly its about going through tunnels of Light...)
2. Music...I hear precisely what is described in Jean Michal's Web Site....Bells drums, like constant sound of organs...I still hear this today without much effort....and when I get really into a deep meditation...the nearest thing to describe it is a Cosmic Orgasim..
3. Nectar...I get reall intoxication by doing the Nectar technique...
4. The Word..When I go into deep meditation...this pulsating rythim inside just take over..it goes beyond the sound...shear power and energy takes your whole body over...amazing power...
I can get about 30 to 50% of this experience any time today without much effort...
HAPPY ...I think these techniques have been around for more than a 1000 years...Patanjali's Treatise on Yoga...is pretty old...
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 15:37:47 (EST)
rom: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Tunnels of light
...Mostly its about going through tunnels of Light...)
Stevei,
Did you ever find yourself going through these tunnels of light before you received Knowledge? Really, what's the difference between closing your eyes before you received Knowledge and after. Just because you're given a point of reference to meditate on (the forehead, between the eyebrows) shouldn't manifest any phenomena that wasn't there before. It doesn't make sense that you would suddenly start seeing light where, before, you didn't. Unless you're pressing on your eyeballs to generate the light. Is that what you are doing?
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 15:47:03 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Full of Life
There are two types of light...the type which is generated by putting pressure on the eyeballs...and that is nerve light...itlooks blurred , scattered and no coherence...then there is the other one...which is the more subtle..it changes colours...move, green, bright yellow...and the shapes are not the same as nerve light...the second type has also an attraction effect...it attracts you into it...its like soft and loving...and glowing...full of life...
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 16:24:14 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Full of Life
Stevei,
This light which is 'Full of Life', you only started seeing it when you began meditating? You were unaware of it before you received Knowledge? The reason I ask is because I've never seen anything different since I've received Knowledge that I wasn't seeing before I received it.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 16:47:09 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Light without K
Ah...ok...I see what you ask...No..I did not see anything before I received knowledge...But I know a number of people who have had experiences of this light without even receiving knowledge or knowing what knowledge is.....The experience of Light is quite common to some people...some kids also experience it when they are young...and the NDEs which I mentioned before...
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 20:03:48 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Light without K
Stevei,
Interesting. I'm at a loss how such a magical transformation has occurred in some peoples' consciousness since receiving Knowledge. There was a time when I found such a transformation desirable. In fact, it was for this transformation that I received Knowledge. Now, you may or may not be surprised, I'm glad no such transformation ever occurred. I no longer feel a need for it.
It might perplex some people why I practiced Knowledge (on and off) for 18 years if it never did anything for me. Well, I believed in Maharaji for all those years that with just 'a little more effort...'. Now I no longer believe that. I feel better since I don't.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 03:17:21 (EST)
From: Red
Email: none
To: Jerry
Subject: Full of something
Jerry,
are you saying that because you haven't experienced something,therefore it does'nt exist?If you are, I would suggest that puts you on very shaky ground.
Red
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 09:34:34 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Red
Subject: Full of something
Actually, Red, you're the one who's on shaky ground for trying to read into my post. How do you know what I'm suggesting? You don't. I was trying to ascertain if the light that Stevei sees in meditation is something that he didn't see before he received Knowledge. He assures me that seeing this light is something that is the result of receiving Knowledge. I'm not saying that he isn't seeing this light. He's apparently having an experience which I myself am not having. I don't know why. Maybe its magic.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 16:40:42 (EST)
From: Red
Email: none
To: Jerry
Subject: Maybe it's tragic
Jerry,are you sure your being honest with me?Me thinks not.Of course it's magic.There's magic everywhere.Just because you don't see it does'nt mean it's not there.Do you have magic in your life Jerry?
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 17:20:58 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Red
Subject: Abracadabra
Red,
If I don't see it, it doesn't do me much good does it? Do I have magic in my life? Yeah, I guess. Every once in awhile I catch Sigfried and Roy on the tonight show.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 17:29:27 (EST)
From: Red
Email: none
To: Jerry
Subject: Abracadabra
Well man,I can't argue with that.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 16:29:02 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Red
Subject: Full of something
Red: Are you saying that because YOU have experienced something, it DOES exist? If so, YOU are on VERY shaky ground. Alot of people 'see' things and 'experience' things that are NOT real. They are called hallucinations (or illusions, if you will). Independent, objective (not subjective) verification is the only sure way YOU are on the right track. If that which you swear you are experiencing is not OBJECTIVELY verifiable, then you are truely on shaky ground.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 17:10:38 (EST)
From: Red
Email: none
To: Mike
Subject: Full of something
Mike:'Independent,objective,(not subjective)verifaction';that's quite a mouthful Mike.OK,just say 2 people are sitting in a beautiful place(or in a city backyard looking at a tree) and one is filled with a sence of wonder,conectedness and joy,while the other says it's just a tree,made of wood,bark,leaves and what not, and that what the first person is experiencing can not be explained using scientific approaches and therefore it's an illusion.I know who I'de think was on shaky ground Mike.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 17:42:55 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Red
Subject: Full of something
Red: Yup, the shaky ground belongs to the guy that 'thinks' he is in a 'beautiful' place. A tree is independently verifiable (e.g. it's REAL). A 'beautiful place' isn't necessarily so. Now, realize that you are mixing apples and oranges here because you are comparing a 'physical' place with K. A physical place is independently verifiable as 'existing,' no matter how 'beautiful' it is. The problem with K is this: you can't objectively verify that any such place exists.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 18:25:52 (EST)
From: Red
Email: none
To: Mike
Subject: Full of something
Mike:This has'nt got anything to do with K,or maybe it has and lots of other things too,but that is not what I meant.Have'nt you ever been in a beautiful place,watched a sunset or something,and experienced something that was bigger than you ,bigger than logic?I suppose because we are just different,but I find the scientific approach to life to be dull,grey and soulless.I think we can safely assume that neither of us is in possession of some 'Ultimate truth',so why not fill your life with colour and joy?
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 19:07:48 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Red
Subject: Decent question, Red
Red: I don't know why people think that science is 'dull and grey.' That has always bothered the heck out of me. Maybe, it's in the way it's presented.
Knowing 'how' something works makes it all-the-more beautiful and precious to me. When I look at the orion nebula and realize that stars are being born, right NOW!....WOW! Protoplanetary systems exist there, too. It's WONDERFUL! Knowing how it all works is the icing on the cake. Discovering where it all came from is 'our' quest. Some look at the flower and say it's beautiful, but they have no idea how really beautiful it is. To see inside the flower and realize the 'miracle' of its functioning... to REALLY SEE the miracle and understand the miracle.... THAT is beauty, that is joy, that is 'wonder.' Those that 'just look' at the flower are really missing the show (IMHO). I don't see science as something dead.... quite the opposite: If it weren't for science, we would have no idea what was causing the ozone layer to deplete. In fact, without science we wouldn't even know that the ozone layer was depleting! That's just ONE example out of many, many more. Ecology is a science that must be manned by those with the curiosity and critical thinking required to fulfill the task (a damned important one, at that!)
Well, now you know 'my' take on the science issue. That's why I spent my time getting my degree in the science that I chose. I've never once regretted getting that degree, either.
Date: Thurs, Feb 18, 1999 at 01:18:54 (EST)
From: Red
Email: none
To: Mike
Subject: Decent question, Red
Mike:You make science sound very exciting.I once heard 2 mathematicians talking and it was truly insperational.Their world was full of mystery and magic,it was almost like getting lost in a fairy tale.It sounds as though you have chosen a worthwhile profession.About the ozone layer though;a cynic might argue that if it were not for science we would'nt have a hole in the ozone layer in the first place.
I believe that there are some things that science will never be able to understand or measure.For instance,if I am meditating or just blissing out on a dew drop or what ever and I try to analyse what is happening,then I am instantly separated from it ,yet that experience brings brings meaning and light into so many lives.Science may help us to understand the world a little better but I doubt that it will ever show us the meaning of life which I suspect is as individual as a snowflake.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 21:14:57 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: verifiability
Mike:
If that which you swear you are experiencing is not OBJECTIVELY verifiable, then you are truely on shaky ground.
Strictly speaking, this is not necessarily the case. It's pretty hard to get complete objectivity about everything that's true. So some things must be true even though they aren't verifiable (Godel). For one thing, you can't even verify the verifiability postulate. That's what clobbered the logical positivists and led to Popper's now famous alternative, the falsifiability postulate. Also, there are lots of things that exist in the 'third world' of ideas, that are not objectively verifiable, but are nonetheless critical.
What does seem pretty convincing, though it may not be completely 'objective,' is the preponderence of evidence argument that a lot of people seem to describe the same thing when they refer to these (inner?) experiences which we came to call Knowledge. In fact, there is almost too much conformity in the premie descriptions to be convincing. What is more convincing is the fact that there are descriptions completely outside of that social situation that, though somewhat ideosyncratic, are still apparently describing the same thing. There are lots of 'techniques,' some more effective than others. The four or so we were taught seem effective for some people, but there are others. I saw geometric transformations in the 'Light' that I can now only describe in terms of synergetic geometry, which I learned much later. What the experience is, and whether or not it is 'divine,' is what can't be objectively verified in any sense. Don't you agree?
-Scott
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 19:48:02 (EST)
From: Sorry steven! That's not
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: the knowledge!!
the lord maharaji said that there is no sound inside of two things coming together.
bells, drums, organs.
the lord maharaji told Ira Woods that the light he was seeeing
inside was the light of mind.
Prem rawat himself described the light inside as this.....
'I have been in rooms that were so dark that they were darker
than what you see inside so there is light inside'
that is very close to what he said. I have the tape.
Also, he talked about when he started writing music
and he said 'there IS music inside me'
You mislead with your description of 'white light'
You see the same stuff I can see. There is no white light.
There is that stuff inside that is affected by positioning
of my fingers and repositioning of my fingers.
Look what prem rawat claims in the very latest issue of -keeping in touch-'The coming and going of this wind, the coming and going of this air is my blessing to you.'
The guy is unbelievable in his attempts to claim ownership of
the breath in any fashion.
Admit it, you stopped after 10 years of trying for the same reason
we all did. And it wasnt sour grapes.
We 'got' the experience, I 'get' the breath.
Sir David has tried the so called nectar technique plenty and
he had the same report the rest of us had. Prem rawat
still drinks and smokes pot to get any quality 'intoxication'!
'Cosmic orgasm' so, this is what we are here for eh?
This fantasy that we are to waste our human life denying
ourselves and trying to have this hardly accessable
'cosmic orgasm'- well, do you suppose that prem rawat
became the living master because HE had your 'cosmic
orgasm' one day?
Does it count if LSD did it for someone?
Or mushrooms?
Or pot,
or beer?
Or actual 'orgasm?
Perhaps no one has had the opportunity to mention to you that
yes there are those that think there is no self concious
original intelligence. Hindu guru's to mention one catagory
of folks that think it is just some 'oneness'
Like prem rawat. the best he can muster is that it is
'the unchangable' (that is his code for the breath).
YOU never hit anything inside that was unchangable.
It was always in flux correct?
prem rawat is your god correct?
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 20:53:20 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Sorry steven! That's not
Subject: What knowledge really is
I know what the 'light' is. It's the effect of concentrating between the eyebrows. It does something to the optic nerve. I know this for a fact because I tried doing the light quite a lot for a few weeks last year and I was seeing a lot of light all of the time, even when I wasn't meditating but I was also experiencing terrible pains in my head and at the back of my eyes where the optic nerve is. I guess that was neuralgia.
The light is caused by the optic nerve. In the end the side effects of looking at this light every day became so bad that I realised I had to stop doing it. And I had not been squeezing my eyeballs either - just looking at light. I think that with some people, looking at this light could damage the optic nerves.
I have come to the conclusion that all the techniques are actual biological or neurological phenomena. Nectar technique can stimulate hormones and the release of endorphines, that is if you don't choke to death first. Music is something similar to light except it's the audio nerve. Breath is simply breath and getting into it can sometimes bring about an increase in peaceful, Alpha brainwaves and sometimes a tingling sensation.
Yep, it's all physical stuff in my opinion. Whether practising any of these techniques is beneficial or harmful is entirely down to the individual and their physiological and psychological make up. It certainly isn't the knowledge of truth.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 14:09:37 (EST)
From: Again, Steven, what
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: exactly have you experienced.
What did you see on the back of your eyelids?
did you see god?
What does the god look like?
Did you see anything as good as a tree?
What did you hear inside?
What is it like?
What did you taste inside?
And how far back does your tongue go?
How much of the day do you spend feeling your breath?
Prem rawat says only 15 minutes, and only in order.
Have you been behaving?
What exactly are you entering when you go within?
Is it self concious?
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 14:25:39 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: techniques once more
I would be a little cautious Stevie: I don't think the techniques are necessarily 1000 years old. I have to check on the age of Gherand Samhita and Hatha-Yoga Pradipika, but I think they are younger than that.
Then, meditation on ANY techniques, or, at least, MANY techniques, might work as well as the 4K - in the sense that they increase positive feelings, concentration, whatever - but really, that does not prove that it is miraculous, comes from 'God', whatever!
Maybe it increases the effectiveness of neural transmitters, serotonin, like prozac - who knows? I personally would apply Occam's razor. So, caution. Anyway, now I have to go home - in my part of the world it is evening, and I'm still at work. Bye for now.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 17:07:13 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: And Denise, what
Subject: exactly have you experienced.
Caught me just as I logged on...must be psychic!!! (Joking, of course) Who wrote this anyway?
Well, can't say my experiences have been as intense as Stevei's.
But I can tell you that I tried all kinds of meditation techniques before receiving K and none of them did a darn thing for me. I read every book and tried every technique I could get my hands on but to no avail. It was actually in desperation only that I agreed to give K a chance. A friend had been pressuring me for over a year to go ahead with it but I was too skeptical. Anyway, the first time (at my K session) was incredible. Yes, I saw light but it wasn't so amazing as the feeling I got from it. I felt suddenly more at home than ever before, like it was the place I had been looking for all my life but just didn't know it. I felt whole and yes, blissed out. As for the other techniques, music just seems to be a sound and helps me focus, third technique is such a wonderful feeling of vibration inside that produces a feeling in me of warmth and love and peacefullness, nectar a nice vibration but I could take it or leave it to be truthful.
Mostly for me it's the feeling that I get from the techniques, I'm not getting a light show or concert in my head or anything. I believe that practicing carries over into the rest of one's day in changing consciousness. Rick or others may look into articles describing this in the Journal of Transpersonal Psychology.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 17:21:56 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: thanks Stevei and Denise
for trying to explain something which must be quite subtle and subjective. And yes, I do have reason to believe it can all be explained by brain physiology, which, obviously varies from individual to individual.
My next question, if you don't mind is, what good is it, and is it worth the effort you put into it, and, if so, why do you feel the need to be a follower of M to have this?
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 17:45:34 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: thanks Stevei and Denise
What good is it? Well, for me it changes the way I perceive my life, brings me peace and joy, bliss, and gives my life meaning.
Is it worth the effort? Yes, definately, (sp?) though I must admit I haven't put forth much effort in a few months. I go through periods of regular meditation and then space out a while, but even when I'm spaced out I still am aware that K is there for me and know I will get back to it. I believe that until my last day on this planet and maybe even after, nobody could ever take this away from me, it's too firmly embedded (the experience). If I found out tomorrow that M was a total fraud and con, I still don't see how this would change.
Why do I feel I need to be a follower of M to get this? Don't know right now. I'm not sure. I guess the problem is I came into the world of K when things were in transition and maybe nobody knew how to describe what my relationship to M was supposed to be, took me a long time to grapple with it. I can only feel love for him when I'm feeling so incredible from the experience of K.
Is it necessary to follow him? I don't know. What real difference would it make in my life except that I would remove the numerous photos of him from my home.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 18:50:03 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: thanks Stevei and Denise
Is it necessary to follow him? I don't know. What real difference would it make in my life except that I would remove the numerous photos of him from my home.
Denise,
Okay, let me get this straight. A dumpy guy from India had one of his assistants show you the meditation techniques. You did the techniques and felt joy, bliss and peace, not only in yourself but also for the guy. Then as an expression of your feelings, you hung a bunch of photos of him in your home, and this is what consists of 'following maharaji'. Right, then. Next question.
When you say you finally tried 'knowledge' out of desperation, what was the desperation? You know I realize it's very unbecoming to be insulting, but you sound like a 'Stepford...', well not 'Stepford Wife' but 'Stepford Student'. I mean, that is what they call it right, a 'student'... and you 'practice', right? You never actually do anything, just practice. Like a basketball player practices and then eventually, they play a game. Or a band practices and then they have a gig. But you just practice and practice, but you never actually do anything. Mmmm hmmm. Okeeeeeay!
Rick
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 19:56:06 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: thanks Stevei and Denise
Rick, these days there really isn't much to being a premie or following M except what's in one's heart. Pretty much it's meditation, going to videos and maybe going to a live event once a year. Oh, I guess there's propagation, but I was never so good at that anyway.
Regarding the desperation, that had to do with being thirsty (as we call it today) or feeling like a connection to the spiritual part of myself was lacking and necessary. Basically, I was worried about this whole thing being a cult but since nothing else worked for me, I tried it. I was told that the door was always open (M still says this all the time) and that if I didn't like it I could leave. So I figured I had nothing to lose by trying K and got what I bargained for.
This word 'practice' I never cared for, I still prefer to call it meditating, but it became not so politically correct to do so among premies (also a word that is not 'politically' correct, but no replacement was given so it stuck in an underground kind of manner).
What's the deal with the Stepford Student? Remember, the rules changed by the time I got K, so I was being a good girl all along.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 20:23:36 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: thanks Stevei and Denise
,i>What's the deal with the Stepford Student? Remember, the rules changed by the time I got K, so I was being a good girl all along.
Did you see the movie 'Stepford Wives'? I'm now assuming you didn't because you didn't get the reference. It was about an upper-middle class suburb where the men drugged their wives and slowly replaced their bodies with some bionic parts. The wives of Stepford became 'perfect wives', their only desire to please their husbands. It made a powerful statement about sexism and women's issues. Some of the women rebelled in the end, and managed to get off the medications that were turning them into zombies. They either killed the men or got them arrested or something.
Sometimes being a 'good girl' is a 'Stepford' thing to do. The reason I wrote 'Stepford Student' is because the last I heard, premies were called 'students'. Premies of yesteryear and even today's premies seem very 'Stepford' to me. I guess there's not much to it anymore except for some photos on the wall. Maybe we should disband this site.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 20:26:56 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: none
To: Denise
Subject: secret techniques
I appreciate that you are able to stick around through the disdain, Denise. As far as a replacement for the word premie, I had heard that now its PWK's(people with knowledge) I don't know if this is still in effect though.
I'm curious what you think about the big need for gmj to keep the techniques so secret, and make aspirants 'aspire' for months and years? I really don't see the sense in this.
Back in the early seventies you could get K in about 3 days, now it takes a year plus. Why the need to change that? Doesn't it seem fishy?
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 21:02:28 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: secret techniques
You're right about the PWK, I forgot, but I've never actually heard anyone say it, it's always just in writing.
As far as the aspirants waiting, I personally know someone that waited for 3 or 4 years in the 70's. Anyway, my feeling about this is that it's good. The reason is that K is something that one doesn't just get easily and toss away just as easily. It's a life decision, like getting married. You don't just decide over night about marriage and it shouldn't be considered as such. In my early days in college soon after I got K, I was so excited about it, I was spreading the word all over. Three or four people received K that year, a relative and a few friends and all got it right away after meeting with an instructor once or twice. None stuck with it . This was the early 80's. I received K after meeting with an instructor just once, waiting just 3 months from the time I made the decision to go ahead with it. The day after meeting with her I got the prize. Anyway, this shows me that people need to take the time to make really sure it's what they want and not just a passing fancy, like having a great first date with someone and deciding to get married the next day. It has nothing to do with punishment or putdown. It's not fishy at all to me, I think it should have been this way all along.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 22:57:08 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: david.studio57@btinternet.com
To: Denise
Subject: Nothing fishy???!!!
Four public domain meditation techniques and people are kept waiting for months! There is no knowledge given. There's no difference to a person who comes out of the knowledge session to when they went in.
The reason why Maharaji keeps people waiting is so that only the people who are devotee material will have the staying power to complete the obstical course. Maharaji wants devotees who see him as a LEADER and a FIGUREHEAD. Then they will donate part of their annual income to him.
But now he's going to have a big problem because the meditation techniques are going to be known by everyone who has internet access and searches for Maharaji on the search engines. So they won't go through the hassle of watching Maharaji's videos for a year, will they. The result will be, even less people becoming paying devotees.
What the heck, Maharaji's finished in the West. He knows it now.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 22:58:02 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: none
To: Denise
Subject: secret techniques
That's fair enough, thanks for answering, Denise. I must say you're being pretty reasonable. Maybe you're right about people throwing out k if they get it 'too easy'. I know I did, I got knowledge in 74 at age 8 and it certainly never worked for me.
Could it be possible that people are more likely to stick with k after a long aspirant period because the mind programming takes time to have an effect? What do you think about brainwashing, hypnosis, auto-suggestion, etc., and do you think it's possible they play any role in your so called experience of 'knowledge'?
I f you haven't read a book called The Guru Papers you should check it out, it explains a lot.
Date: Tues, Feb 16, 1999 at 23:38:47 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Denise
Subject: secret techniques
Hi Denise!
So then putting the photos on your walls is a really big deal? God, now I'm confused. I thought that if you stopped following maharaji, it would just be a matter of removing some of his pictures from your walls. But now you say that in order for someone to meditate, there should be a long process of preparation. If that's the case, then there has to be more involved in no longer following maharaji than removing some photos.
Here's the thing... if maharaji's knowledge is the 'knowledge of all knowledges', and one is desperate for it (like you say you were), then what's the need for a lengthy preparation? I submit that the reason a long preparation is necessary is that it really isn't the prize of divinity. I would compare it more to waiting for sex until after marriage--not particularly wise if you want to have a good time in bed.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 03:23:43 (EST)
From: chr
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: Proof of Techniques of K
I think its probably horses for courses.I enjoyed the techniques too,but have found others since that lead to the same experience.Towards the time I left I found the light and sound techniques irritating and awkward.Basically I think they're just points of focus into whats already there.Too much can be made of them and M found a spiritually naive and gullible western youth population all too ready to hand over acknowledgement of any experience to him.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 07:10:28 (EST)
From: Stevei
Email: None
To: all
Subject: 1+1+1 = 3
OK...we know from all the scriptures we have Body+Soul+Spirit...
Well we all know what the Body is....the Soul is our personality in this incarnation...sum tota of our life experiences..
Spirit is the gasoline in the Engine...Life Force whatever..
This Life force in the body must manifest itself in some ways....how? It is a primal Energy...which I believe the 4K are doors that lead into it...just doors nothing else....This primal energy...manifest itself as Light..sound...vibrartion...pretty much all the scriptures agree on that.....
The Light technique..leads to the door of the Light of the Spirit...what you see..depends on how much luggare u are carrying...
So I mean ..it is not really a secret or a big deal....really all quite logical....Nothing Mysterious....
Note please I am not talking about M here...I am able to differentiate between M and knowledge..I dont mix the two together....Spirit was and is and will be...
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 09:24:15 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: 1+1+1 = 3
I agree. Nobody, including M, was never too clear about the role of the Master in the actual experience of the techniques, if there is a role. I do find that he keeps me focused on the important things in life through his videos, which I appreciate. Sometimes I find myself getting too caught up in all the garbage going on in my life.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 09:45:08 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: age of techniques
Hi Stevei,
You adressed me about the age of Patanjali's Yoga sutras.
They are quite old, but I have to look into it a little more to be absolutely sure.
Patanjali's yoga sutras, Gherand Samhita, and Hatha-yoga Pradipika - my guess is that Patanjali is somewhat older than the other two. It is also less specific about techniques. If there is a university department for sanskrit, comparative religion around where you live, you could ask. But I promise to try to find out from my sources, too.
The age of yoga and meditation is a debated issue. Scientists of comparative religion usually say that yoga was developed among the kshatriyas, the warrior cast, fairly recently (i.e. the last 1000 years). Yogis and gurus usually claim their tradition to go down to ancient rishis (seers). It is difficult to substantiate these claims, however.
In the old Indus' culture, there were two cities, Harappa and Mohenjo-daro (5000 years ago). One statue has been found which COULD be regarded as a Shiva statue in lotus position. I have seen a copy of that statue. It's possible, but the evidence is very weak, to say the least.
Bhagavad-Gita is about 2500 years old. There are clear references to meditation there, but Krishna told Arjuna to concentrate 'on the tip of the nose', NOT on the so called 3rd eye. The 3rd eye is a more recent concept. That is quite certain.
Surely, the Upanishads go back to around 2500 years ago. In the Upanishads, yoga techniques are not clearly described, but the philosophy is all there, of course.
Then the issue HOW meditation works: well, I guess that's an open question. IMO, there are many techniques, some 'work' for some people, some for others. But I would avoid putting too much magic into it!
I really think the the 'Light' is activity in the optical nerves,
the 'Music' activity in the audical nerves, the 'Nectar' technique might stimulate your pineal gland - possibly - and so on. Focusing on these might bring about positive feelings and experiences. I see nothing wrong with your practising meditation if you enjoy it! But be careful in applying magic and spirituality into it. I meditate myself, but not exactly as M. suggests. And, the techniques are NOT HIS anyway, and they work better WITHOUT him.
And, MEDITATION CAN NEVER SOLVE ANYONE'S PERSONAL NOR EXISTENTIAL PROBLEMS.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 09:54:37 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stevei and Jerry
Subject: 1+1+1 = 3
The Light technique..leads to the door of the Light of the Spirit...what you see..depends on how much luggare u are carrying...
Well, Jerry, ole buddy, looks like you and I are fucked... We'll never see the light because of all the luggare (baggage?) we're carrying. Of course it has nothing to do with brain physiology and individual differences. It's all karma.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 12:08:01 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: 1+1+1 = 3?
Gerry,
It can't be karma. This Knowledge erases karma by guru's grace. So it must be something else. It can't be physiology, because I don't think you need a brain to meditate. Do you? And it can't be individuality because we're all one in spirit. Right? So Stevei must be right. It's gotta be luggare!
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 12:15:55 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Damn the luggare! LOL (nt)
it's always something!
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 12:17:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No karma, RELAXATION!
My experience is it's only a matter of relaxing deeply, which is not very easy for many people. That's why 'good' meditation teachers usually use various techniques to help you relax before actually practicing meditation. It might take quite long for some people (like me), but it worked.
My opinion is that the BM's relaxation technique is: listen to boring and empty discourses, listen to hypnotic music or watch hypnotic videos, and then meditate. That's the problem. There are more innocuous ways to relax before meditating.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 17:23:50 (EST)
From: Denise
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 1+1+1 = 3?
M has been saying that karma is bs and jokes about people who believe in it., just for your information.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 17:49:16 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: gee Stevei
Stevei: I always thought that there were just two things: Spirit (e.g. THE consciousness) and maya.... that's all, just two. NOW, who's right? You or me? Which 'concept' is correct, yours or mine? Which scripture has it right, yours or mine or someone else's? They are NOT 'all the same.' 2 does not equal 3.
CONCEPTS, stevei.... just OLD concepts, that's all.
Date: Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 21:57:00 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Stevei
Subject: 1+1+1 = 3
Okay, scripture boy, let's have citations for these quotes. You can save a little time on JM site; he has them all laid out for you, with proper exegesis. Of course, I expect quotes from all the scriptures, Hebrew, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Zorastrian, Manichean, Taoist, Gnostic....