Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 14:20:16 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji in Oxnard Message:

Here's the latest Hamster Chatter from Oxnard this month: Amongst all the things that happen in this life, what is the most important? That one that really addresses my existence? Knowing quite well that we come from the same magical dirt, and have the same molecules, as an eggplant. But instead of a purple thing hanging off of a little plant, here a moving, thinking existence was created. A body, eyes, mind, brain, ears. Which can think, feel, touch, see, experience and enjoy. And what a palette! Doubt and clarity. My goodness, those are incredibly strong things. Opposite to each other, but both, incredibly strong. And with it, a bunch of paint brushes, lots of paint, and an empty canvas. Of course, our first thought is, 'Why do I have to paint? Why can't I just sit here?” Fine. You don't have to paint. You can sit there and look at this white canvas all your life. Or you could say, 'I'm just going to do what I think I should do.” That's painting by numbers. It makes your life easy, and it works really well, so far you don't show your painting to anyone. Because the other person may say, 'Hey, I did the same thing!” But think about how incredibly unique you are. You have two eyes, I have two eyes. You have lips, I have lips. You have teeth, I have teeth. You have a nose, I have a nose. So, what's the difference? There are incredible variations, in a combination so subtle that you look different than I do. Nothing is alike. No two sunsets are alike. No two waves are alike, no two snowflake are alike. There are infinite variations. So here you are. Unique. With an existence to be enjoyed, to be fulfilled. And when I say, 'Enjoy,” I'm not talking about party time. The enjoyment that comes from being fulfilled is different. Being fulfilled means knowing from your heart when that gratitude starts to sing. Your heart dances, and you don't know why. A long time ago - this is one example I used to give back in the '70's - people would start comparing me to God. 'Are you God?' - that's what they would ask. 'No, I'm not God.' 'So, what are you?' And this is the analogy I used to give. Imagine a big power station. There are big turbines running in there, generating power, and then there are the cables going out from the power station, going to the different transformers, and from those transformers, distributed further. They go into distribution centers and they're distributed even more. Then they go into your city, into your little area and then into your community, and finally that power comes to your house, and, through the wiring in your house, reaches your little outlet. And from that little outlet it goes through the wires and into the bulb. In the bulb, there is a filament, and when the power goes into that, it lights up. And I would say that's me - the filament. I'm not the power station. The filament is the thinnest part of the whole equation. It is so thin that when the electricity goes through that filament, it lights it up. Whatever it may be, without that filament, there is no light. And if light is what you want, then that's how that is made possible. [What kind of an answer is that??] That which is so complicated is made so simple, and Knowledge is the most incredible response to the cry of that heart. Something said, 'I want to be fulfilled.” And someone said, 'Here. Here is a way you can be.” Of all the understandings, that one understanding has to dance. Of all the things that you do in your life, and will do in your life, there will be one that is the most important. And if it is incredibly simple, as simple as taking a breath, then let it be. So be in that joy. Be content. And then, let it be. Don't make life a mystery that it isn't. Don't make life complicated, which it isn't. It is a very simple rhythm of existence, of coming, of going, of being here. And in this 'being here' is everything. There is you. There is your understanding, there is your capacity to love. There is your capacity to appreciate. Confusion, believe me, is contagious. There's never been a shortage of it. Once, I was watching this spoof video of mistakes that people have made. And one of them was of a guy who gets the football and starts running. He is really running. He looks behind him, and there's nobody chasing him. He gets to the other end, and he throws the ball down, jumps up and it's like, 'Yes! This is my moment of glory.” And the whole audience is looking at him in total disbelief. He got the ball; he ran with it. There's only one small technicality. He ran the wrong way. So here you are. This is your moment of glory. You've got the ball. What are you going to do? Some people will ask, 'Is this really a ball? And if this is a ball, how come I've got it?” This is what confusion can do. 'How come I've got it? I wonder what I did in my last lunch break to end up with this ball. ' So what are you going to do? That which doesn't want you to have the ball is tearing down the field, running to get the ball. It's called time; a powerful thing. Nobody has been able to stop the tackle of time. It's strong. It's powerful. But so are you, because you have the ball. Somebody is saying, 'Run that way.' And you're thinking, 'How do I know that's the right way?” The coach is saying, 'Go. Run. Run.” It would have been nice if you had paid attention so you would know which is your side and which is the other side. But now, it's, 'Help, I've got the ball! What do I do with it? This is too much. I don't want the ball. Oh, my god, somebody take it!” And the big force is coming, with big, eight-foot-wide shoulders, making Popeye look like a little fly. The pounding is heard yards away, the earth is shaking. Those little things that you used to be able to do so easily. That's the earth shaking. I see it in other people, I see it in myself. My eyesight used to be like binoculars. Now, it's not. We think, 'Oh, I just need to get glasses.” To fix it. Maybe it's, 'Oh, my back hurts.' And I take couple of pills. To fix it. Are you going to run, or are you going to stand in one place and say, 'Oh, my god - what am I going to do with this ball? If I knew it was going to be like this, I would have never picked this game!” But you've got it, so do something. Then somebody comes and says, 'Look. It's okay. Gather your strength. That big tackler, called time, was always coming. Don't be worried by it. It may seem closer, but it was always running at this speed.' That's one thing that's good about time: it really doesn't accelerate. It stays at the same pace. And what you've got to do is keep your pace clean. Use the tools you've got. That enthusiasm. Those things that seem so tender to you. Try feeling. Try opening this heart, and, with both hands, try hugging existence. Do you know what that's like? To embrace the advice of the coach who says, 'Don't be so afraid.' To embrace the advice of the Master? And even though whatever the Master gives you is free, the Master's advice is never free. Because if you follow his advice, it will take everything you've got. It will require you to take every moment that you have and put it to use in that enjoyment, in that perfection. Not just bits and pieces of this lifetime, but this whole lifetime. People might say, 'But what about all the years that have gone by?” No, the day when you awaken is the day you begin to live. The day you form the alliance with the heart is the day you begin to live. That's when the dance happens. So embrace this life. Embrace this magic. All of it - it's yours. You've got the ball. Run, and score. People come who have run the wrong way. But the game isn't over yet, You've still got the ball. You can still run with it. Run to your heart, and acknowledge your heart. The living will experience the living and there is nothing more living than this breath. There is nothing more living than this heart. Let the Master show you the shortcuts, so that that which was destined for time can become timeless. That's the quality of the heart. That's what Knowledge is all about. Somebody felt the chain of time, felt the shackles of doubt on their feet, and their heart cried, 'I want to be free.” Other people, may say, 'Oh, yes. We know how you can be more free. We'll chain you more, and then we'll take off a couple of the chains so then you'll feel freer.' If you say, 'But what about the original chains?', they will reply, ' Well, so far you just perceive that you are freer, that's good enough.' No, it's not. Freedom is freedom. It is not something to think about but something to know. It's all there for you to turn within, to accept. To accept the challenge of the heart. And to run. To run with dignity. Not tumbling over yourself, not tripping all over the place. Even if you fall down, don't worry. Grab that ball and run again. Do you best in being conscious. Do your best in being alive. Everything else, somehow, will fall into place. What's going to happen to you this year? I know one thing that could happen. You could be really happy. That's the possibility that you have been presented with. Take it. Of all the things that might happen, that's possible. And so, make it happen. You've got the ball. Be alive. What more is there?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 22:35:10 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: all Subject: Maharaji in Oxnard Message:

It's interesting how M sets up the game. He paints the picture that there is one and only one way to be happy--with him and knowledge. And how life without knowledge is so big and scary. He's a damn fundamentalist. It's his way or the highway.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:51:28 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: Warning to Jim Message:

There is a post to you from shp about hedging your bets, a few posts below. You should take some deep breaths before you read it.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:30:06 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji is a LIAR, but what is Turner? Message:

I think even premies have to admit that Maharaji lies like a rug. I listened to his crap in ther 70s and 80s and he NEVER said he was a 'filament.' He DID say he was 'greater than God,' he DID say he was 'THE SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON,' He DID say he was equivalent to Jesus Christ and Krishna. And I NEVER heard him even ONCE say 'I AM NOT GOD.' He always did a coy wink, wink, trip letting the premies know that's who he was, while at the same time, dressing up as Krishna, having us kiss his feet, and raising not one murmur of protest when he was called 'Lord of the Universe.' So, Maharaji lies about who he is, or who he thinks he is, he lies about what he did in the past as a 'Master,' he also lies in his personal life by allowing someone else to take the rap when he killed somebody in a car accident, and he also lies when he pretends to be this conservative family man, when at the same time he has a mistress, has sex with his devotees, and takes drugs. The fact that people like Turner can accept all this and make excuses for him, also says something about people like Turner. Is it delusion, or outright dishonesty? Clearly it's just plain lying when it comes to Maharaji. But what about Turner?

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 11:15:04 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Joe Subject: Turner's in a mess Joe. Message:

He's devoted his life to the Lord. He's sincere. And, as the Lord is infinitely wise and merciful, he wouldn't let Turner spend all those years, believing he was giving himself to the creator when really he was pissing into the wind with the rest of us, would he? This is the big bit of his life that he's scared to look at. An image of a person in a room comes to mind. Someone has robbed him, then told him to sit on a chair and not get up or he'll be shot. The robber then leaves, leaving Turner on the chair, thinking there's someone still behind him ready to shoot. Turner sits and sits and sits. People come to the window and bang on it, telling Turner there's nobody there. But you can't fool Turner. He saw the robber. He saw the gun. He doesn't want to get shot. He's not moving. The years go by... You've got to feel sorry for the guy. And what if he's one of the mugs who's taken out a massive loan to pay the latest installment on a gold toilet seat for the private jet? Pass the kleenex. Maybe we should have a collection for him. Anth so happy to have escaped.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:06:22 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jim is hedging his bets Message:

Yep. Jim Heller, arch-nemesis of Prem Pal Singh Rawat, is doing service to Maharaji by posting his words here and he knows it. Of course, it is all presented under the guise of scrutinizing and eviscerating the discourse. But Jim knows, perhaps better than most, that even to present Maharaji's words in this setting is also service to him, for so many will be exposed to the message. Subconscious action by Mr. Heller? Perhaps. But when someone reproduces the words of Maharaji and sends them out to hundreds if not thousands of listeners, it is indeed service, even if the apparent purpose is to ridicule. You knew that, didn't you Jim? Ever the doubtful, overintellectual, cosmopolitan, jaded, surface partisan for the oppressed minority, you still aren't sure yourself, are you Jim? So you post his words here and it is indeed service. Out of all the people who read your post, I bet at least someone will be touched by whatever sincerity and truth exists in those words, despite all the bad news and bad everything that has happened along the way, plus your own spin. Very clever, Jim. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:24:44 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Sandy Subject: You're Joking, Right? Message:

Please tell me you're joking. Please tell me the truth. Steve

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:36:40 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Yes and No, sincerely Message:

He may be posting Maharaji's words thinking he's doing it to dissect it before his audience or let the others tear it apart, as well the words could be. But even if a drunk heroin addict thief with AIDS lying in the gutter in his own feces can lift his finger and point a seeker to go within to find the truth, the power of that direction surpasses the condition of the pointer. Therefore, I say that whether Jim realizes it or not, he is serving the spreading of Knowledge by printing and sending Mahraji's words out on the internet, even here. For even if one person feels something from it and acts on that feeling, I beleive that goes on Jim's dance card, so to speak. I find it interesting that as long as I am talking the ex talk, I'm cool with most here, but as soon as I say something in objectivity that does not reek of anti-Maharaji, I get reviled. Too bad. I just got this in my e-mail from lightsmith.com Some here may relate to it: Subject: UPDATE from Lightsmith Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:07:30 -0600 From: 'LIGHTSMITH.COM' To: chris@lightsmith.com Hi y'all, Greetings to you from here in Minnesota, the THROAT chakra of North America (cough). At least that's some distinction besides setting records as reaching some of the coldest temperatures in the United States and being a place you don't want to visit in the winter. Here we are almost at the end of January, the presidential election is finally over (I think), and we're zipping through just another ordinary month of non-stop personal restructuring and intense global transformation. Yee-hah. Perhaps you're thinking 'I've been working so hard for THIS?'. Ah, well, the best is yet to come! This update brings you notice of a few more additions to the Lightsmith site, notably a new page of response from our friends in Spirit and also a message for these times. The new questions presented at the last channeling include comments about what has been a busy dream time for many, a perspective on underground networks and Lemurians, and an explanation of the astral plane. The monthly message is a particularly direct one, and I am going to include it at the end of this note because some people on our list do not have easy access to the web at this time (mail is received on mailstations and such). You can read it here or check out everything on the Lightsmith site at /www.lightsmith.com. Before I add the channeling, I wanted to add a few thoughts of my own. The astral energies are lobbying hard for your attention right now. You will likely be presented with an opportunity to polarize with someone or something. DON'T GO THERE. That's how you are pulled into giving your energy to a part of consciousness that doesn't know how to die a peaceful death. You can witness the energy shortage and the panic in the old, controlling structures. In California, it's playing out in a grand metaphor for all to see. It's occurring throughout the physical and astral levels, so stay conscious of what you are doing with your energies. Don't give them away. Don't even give them your fear if that's up for you right now. Project NOTHING onto another and own every feeling as yours. Process everything as your own opportunity to clear, expand, and move into another reality. Release your attachments and step OUT of the old. That is the main challenge of these first months of 2001. This message was also articulated in the new year's channeling. I'll have a transcript of that channeling posted in the next few days, so please check back. I would also like to let you know of a couple of events Michele and I will be doing here in Minnesota. We will be speaking and facilitating a process of alignment with two different spiritual communities. On Sunday, February 18th we will be at the Agapé service which is held at the Center for Performing Arts in Minneapolis. On the following Sunday we will be in Duluth for the Sunday service of the Lake Superior Interfaith Community Church. Please join us if you can. As always, we appreciate sharing this amazing adventure with you, and we love to hear from you either in a personal e-mail or from your questions. Many blessings........... Chris Here is what our Spirit friends had to say: 'Some of what we would like to say in this time we have perhaps said before. However, because of what is taking place in the collective consciousness we would like to reiterate it in some ways and offer a little more direction to people in terms of how to work with what we are speaking of.' 'There is a very strong contraction in the field right now. The contraction is not one where it is felt just because of winter or the physical experience, but it is a contraction of duality. Duality in the matrix itself is pulling itself into a great tension, rather like the poles are widening. As it does so, those people who are either on one side or the other feel a greater and greater emotional attachment to those places in their consciousness where they are attached to one side or the other by agreement and by design within duality with even greater tension with the pole. So even greater relationship in their own unconscious with what has been projected outward and not owned. The nature of duality is a disowning of one aspect, projecting it, and then creating tension with it so there is a charge formed that is a substitute for life.' 'There is only one way out of the separation that is growing in terms of its polarity, and it is not through either of the poles. It is to just step out of that field completely. Most people who have so intimately identified themselves with this as life see this as death to do this. It is actually a step into real life rather than the false illusionary substitute of life. But it does at times feel that you are giving up what is known and familiar, and stepping into the new matrix which is already formed and is ready to receive anyone who wishes to step into it. It is not like it is just a step, it is moving beyond duality. It is saying 'no more, I do not wish to do this, I do not wish to play in this arena of separation, of fighting, of drama, of duality where there is charge, but not life.' 'One of the ways to begin to do this is to recognize how much stress, how much pain, how much struggle, how much disturbance, how much imbalance, how much grayness, and how much death there is in this place. Recognize it, name it. Allow that it has been your experience, and also acknowledge that there is another experience just beyond the veil. You can use an image of walking out of a building across a bridge, parting a veil, opening a door, walking through a door, up a stairs and into another place. Use the visualization as your meditation of moving beyond this place, however it looks to you and whatever is your image. Step very deliberately into this new arena, this new place. Gradually, what is holding you in duality will loosen. You will begin to feel less and less of a pull to be there, or to play there, or to remain there.' 'Know that this other place is ready and that you can be there, and you will begin to learn how to be there. It does not operate the same, it is not a polar region. It is a region where all who are present begin to form circles or places in which all can be present and co-create. It is joyful and playful, and it is very creative for that is its nature. There are currents of creation within it that carry intention through to form and manifestation. It is abundant, and it is for all who choose to be part of it, to step into it, to open their root chakras, release survival fears and open to life. We have spoken of it before. It is ready, it is all ready, and you can step into it. Use the visualizations in your meditation times. You will start to feel what it feels like, you'll know that it is present, and it will be easier to leave the duality matrix that is now beginning to disassemble from within.' 'That is our message, and we encourage as many as can hear this, perceive this, and recognize this to begin to do it. You will meet others in this other place who have already gone before you. They will assist you, they will be welcoming you, and there will become a new dance of creation. Those in duality who choose to remain attached to their place within it will not perceive this dance, but there will become manifest forms being created out of this new place. These will show up in life. Those in duality will try to discredit them and not make room for them, and yet they will be so wondrous and so alive that those in life and those young people who have not been totally woven into duality will grab a hold of them and grow. Those in duality will not understand how, because they are not funding them so how are they growing and how do they have life.' 'These questions will begin to open the whole structure of duality. Many will feel like they are losing their minds or going crazy. They will try to get even more control. These next few years will be this drama. Those who have already left duality will not even be much affected by what is happening. Those within duality will feel as if their world is wrenching apart. This will continue. You have a number of years where this will be in transition. Choose now and enjoy these years as the creative energies of creation herself inform you, give you life, abundance, and joy to play with.'

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 16:48:39 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Sandy Subject: Sincerity Without Humility Is Meaningless Message:

Sandy, I feel like a friend because of prior communication. I'm also concerned about you. Your posts exhibit signs of schizophrenia in my opinion. I'm not a doctor but as a friend I can suggest you get professional help. I know that rawat has damaged people's thinking, including my own. It can be fixed but it takes humility. If you are sincere and open-minded, please email me and we can continue this off-line. Steve

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 16:31:17 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Sandy Subject: Don't abuse sincerity, Sandy Message:

Sandy, It’s clear from your posts that you have a problem with Jim. You do not enhance you credibility as a discerning thinker nor as a fair fighter, with me at least, by suggesting that Jim is helping Maharaji by posting excerpts of his speeches on the Forum. In my opinion, nothing discredits Maharaji more than reading what he has said, not only in the distant past, but especially the drivel he is offering up today. Michael

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 18:21:32 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hi Michael. Talking of drivel... Message:

I sent the package, has it arrived yet? I agree with you, there is nothing more revealing about M than the drivel that issues from his own mouth. But, I must say that your revelations on this site come a close second!! for which, thanks. I hope you've got more up your sleeve.?? Love Kelly

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 22:39:47 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Kelly Subject: The package has not yet arrived (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 04:12:13 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Yes and No, sincerely Message:

Hello Sandy, Choosing freinds and choosing those whom you listen to for input requires discretion. People will ensnare in words and in thier creative delusion, seem smart and worthwhile. rawats little talk is loaded with fraud and it is up to the reader to be able to see that.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:50:48 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: See? You did it again! Message:

I find it interesting that as long as I am talking the ex talk, I'm cool with most here, but as soon as I say something in objectivity that does not reek of anti-Maharaji, I get reviled. What you do with words is shameless. This time it's 'objectivity'.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 01:51:01 (GMT) From: baz Email: None To: sandy Subject: plot Message:

think you may be losing the plot sandy - lets keep it simple baz

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:39:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Jim is part of the divine plan too, Sandy ... Message:

- though have you ever wondered why the divine plan is making it ever easier to denounce Maharaji as the lying fraud he'd destined to deny being for the rest of his natural ... ? Phew, talk about karma!

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:31:50 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Thus spake the Lard. Message:

Hi Sandy, Maharaji doesn't have a message. He just wants you to help satisfy his desires. He recommends you dedicate your life to him, concentrate on him, love him, finance him, experience 'him' within, give him credit for the fact that you're breathing (unless he's killed you in a hit and run) think of him at the moment of death, etc. His words, when read without the hypnotic lull of non-critical devotion (it's not in the words, it's a feeling right?) really are empty, contradictory, simplistic mumbo-jumbo. He's full of crap. He's not wise at all. He's a spoiled brat who believes his own bullshit. Anth, who is all about several feelings, but not all at the same time because it makes you ill and you get into trouble.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 19:48:36 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sincerity? Don't make me puke! Message:

Sandy the sincere wrote:- Out of all the people who read your (Jim's) post, I bet at least someone will be touched by whatever sincerity and truth exists in those (Maharaji's) words. Sandy, Is this one of your serious posts???? Sincerity from Maharaji - are you sure?? No - I can't believe your years here have had no effect on your intellect. Listen, Sandy - Maharaji has no sincerity when he speaks. Got it?? BTW the rest of your post was complete and utter bollocks. John the amazed.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:42:13 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: There some bad in the best of us Message:

And some good in the worst of us. To lose sight of that is more than I choose to surrender, even if I am repulsed and disgusted by some of the reports and actions I have read about him here. So what I hear you saying is the exact opposite of what Maharaji and EV say. There I cannot utter a discouraging word, and here I cannot utter an encouraging one, without getting ostracized by the dominant social order.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:09:40 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Don't get your hopes up Sandy Message:

It was such insane trash I couldn't read it. At first I thought it was from that vegetable cult guy. I will pray that pee-pee Rawat never gets Alzheimers, or we are all in for some 'words to remember.' Yuck!

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:40:19 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Jim and all Subject: Maharaji in Oxnard Message:

If you think that’s bad, you should hear the un-cut version!! At the top of this newsletter they say… “ ….Rather than reproducing selected excerpts, in this issue of Elan we are publishing an abridged and edited version of his talk.” Having watched the whole thing last night, I was wondering how they would be able to pick anything out of it that might sound half- way decent. The answer is – by editing it of course!! And boy, has it been edited!! Of course all the stuff about Krishna’s gone. He opened with that. If you want to read what he said, it’s in my post below “Maharaji is a Moron”

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:20:29 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Revisionism Message:

I see that he also says that back in the bad old '70's, he was asked if he was God, and he denied it. Oh yeah, right. And they also deleted the part about M telling the premies to think about him at the time of death, didn't they? Very selective and interesting 'editing'. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:20:22 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Revisionism? This is Abridged Too Far! Message:

This is NOT Maharaji in Oxnard. This has been edited beyond recognition. I understand now why EV decided to present an edited and abridged version instead of selected excerpts. They could not have found a single excerpt out of the whole mess that would have sounded any good. When reading through it, I thought. ‘This is not what I remember’, and I only watched it yesterday! So I printed it out and sat in front of the video and compared it. I was shocked…. really shocked. Ok, they’ve left out all the crass, embarrassing and incoherent bits, including the Krishna stuff. Fair enough, that’s understandable! But, the bits they have kept, have been edited so frequently, a cut about every 8-10 words, and not only that….they have changed words, added words and phrases, corrected his grammar, and paraphrased to such a degree, that there is almost no resemblance to the original. If I have time later, and if I can bear to watch it again! I’ll do a couple of comparisons. I really do think this is abridged too far!!

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:36:34 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Legal misrepresentation??? Message:

I wonder -- that's right, EV attorneys, I said I wonder --- if the 'edited' version of Rotwat's talk that is sent through the mail amounts to a legal misrepresentation of what he actually said? To whom is this distributed, Kelly? Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:33:57 (GMT) From: LL.B at the Bar Email: Ask Bazza To: Marianne Subject: Legal opinion misrepresentation??? Message:

I cannot believe the time you wate under the guise of 'legalese ' spouting the irrational to the unknowing. You claim kudos as a legal expert and then spout that pap? Mis-representation requires an 'injured party' and 'quantifiable damages'. So someone volunteers their email adress for a free SPAM every day and THEN they claim for damages? On the basis of an edit? That should be big news to every media outlet in the country 'OK you reporters learn your lines , from now on there is no editing!' How stupid are you? Go back to your welfare cases and your Court duty attorney roles. You know diddley squat about Civil law you imposter!

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:11:18 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: LL.B at the Bar Subject: Greetings Catweasel--damages for cult fraud Message:

I see you have posted under 2 different names here. That's okay with me. You are wrong on both counts. I know exactly what I am talking about. Injured party???? Quantifiable damages? Hmmm. I guess you don't read all the posts by people who want to sue because they feel they were fraudulently deprived of funds and assets by the cult. Editing what the Master says might be actionable if it misled someone into giving funds or assets that they would not otherwise have donated had an accurate and complete transcript of his talk been provided. Why delete that stuff about 'think of me at the time of death' and Krishna and Arjuna? Why not send it out for all the premies and aspirants to read? Go change your litter box, kitty.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:35:48 (GMT) From: Brendan Murphy Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Such a long Bow you draw!! Message:

That is crap Marianne and YOU know it. Who is Catweasel? Whose money are YOU going to use to raise this useless trivial nonsense above the palor of your own mind. Bet not yours! As I said No Injured Parties (on the basis of editing an Email version of a speech - their perogative, their intellectual property); No quantifiable damages. I thought you had more respect for yourself and your profession than to be spinning that pap under the guise of 'legal opinion' Don't bother answering -it's embarrassing to see this nonsense .

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 13:30:01 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Brendan Murphy Subject: Where do you practice? Message:

Are you an EV attorney? Are you an EV monitor? Do tell.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 14:42:41 (GMT) From: Brendan Murphy Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Where do you practice? Message:

Words fail me.EV monitor? Is that like a classroom monitor? Or is it a 17 inch screen? Please get serious. 'EV monitors' in my humble opinion would never communicate with you. Wouldn't they just 'monitor'? No , I am not an EV attorney. I doubt they even remember my existence. I could be horribly facetious and tell you I practice in my bedroom. The law has many levels of activity doesn't it counsel? Stop bullshitting Marianne. You are continually grandstanding.Try being yourself..... PS: I'd say this bugs some people even more than you!

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 15:09:54 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Brendan Murphy Subject: Feel the need to squelch me, do ya Brendan? Message:

You don't like what I say, ignore me. Beyond that, one must consider why you are coming here and making these posts. Are you an ex? A premie? Your post is sexist. Grandstanding? Me? In comparison to whom? I don't think so.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 15:41:01 (GMT) From: Brendan Murphy Email: No, this is not personal To: Marianne Subject: I Feel the need to ask for the truth Marianne Message:

Put simply ,I am of the opinion that YOU are misrepresenting the law. My post to you is not remotely sexist. How did you conjure that one Counsel? In comparison to who - others who may well be qualified to comment?. Grandstanding? - thats what I would call it. You stop bullshitting!- and I'm off your case. You seemed to have worked out that I at least have some familiarity with the subject matter. Ex? , Premie? What's it matter. Just stop schmoozing the innocents with quasi legal bullshit. Remember; No misrepresentation(except yours!), No injured or wronged parties (Voluntary subscription,no fee) and No right to punitative damages. The simple answer 'If you dont like it , dont ask for it' Goodnight Counsel. Copyright implies editorial freedom. (What do you wanna do , take on the right to freedom of speech?)

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 15:50:08 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Brendan Murphy Subject: What are 'punitative' damages, pray tell? nt Message:

xxx

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 01:16:16 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: LL.B at the Bar Subject: Legal opinion misrepresentation??? Message:

How many Federal Court of Appeals death sentence cases have you argued and won, my friend? Of course Marianne isn't an expert in civil law. But she sure enjoys jerking your chain.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 03:56:54 (GMT) From: Brendan Murphy Email: None To: gerry Subject: Legal opinion misrepresentation??? Message:

The point is , you silly fucking loud mouthed school teacher, she's not jerking any-one's chain- hence the comment. She should know better. Oh and we are civilised in this country-we dont have the fucking Death Penalty. Criminal law? You would be surprised Jerry - dont ask too many questions. You might not enjoy the answers,two can play at Marianne's pathetic game.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:51:22 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Legal misrepresentation??? Message:

Hi Marianne, This is the EV e-newsletter, and as far as I know, is distributed to anyone who wants it, by e-mail. If you go to the Elan Vital website you can subscribe to it from there, or view it online. I guess only premies would want it!! I'll give you a copy of what he really said when I see you. Love Kelly

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 19:01:08 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Does it identify who does the editing? Message:

I am very curious about this. Is this also sent through the mail to those not on line? Thanks, Kelly. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:29:05 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Dunrite Productions Message:

Many old-time faithful (Michael Wood and Rich Neel, to name two) who work at Dunrite Productions produce and edit theses videos. EV MONITORS - say 'cheers' to the boys for me.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 19:26:08 (GMT) From: Patrick Conlon Email: None To: Marianne Subject: EV spin doctors are secret Message:

Mr Rawat has always said that his words are not important. The EV spin doctors also know that when his words are transcribed they embarassingly idiotic. And in the Radhasoami tradition the guru's words are not important. What is important is the Radhaswammy double whammy - a combo of kriya and bhakti juju. Take away the bhakti juju and you're left with seeing that your emperor has no clothes. The PWKs are firmly under the spell of that old juju and do not see how moronic the Rev is. Time to wake up any of you premies whose brains have not turned to complete bhakti mush. Unplug yourselves from that old black magic ''filament'' and operate under your own power.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 19:42:33 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Patrick Conlon Subject: Oh, the words are VERY important to this lawyer Message:

And the words are also potentially very important to government attorneys as well. Especially if they go through the mail and amount to a fraudulent misrepresentation. I'm not saying that happened. I'm just speculating out loud. Here's a big hug for you, Pat! Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:01:41 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Maharaji's 'satsang' has always been edited Message:

Give me a break. The man is incoherent. If they didn't edit the written stuff it would so just how incoherent it is. Shri Hans Productions, or whoever does it now, has always edited M's 'satsang' to make it at least semi-intelligible. I understand now they edit who sections, like when he tells off-color jokes, or uses to may Hindu terms, which are not supposed to be in vogue now in the cult. They even used to airbrush the zits off his chubby face. I kid you not. Joy can tell you more about this, as she actually worked for SHIP in the 70s. I don't know if they also tried to airbrush away one of his multiple chins, or perhaps reduce his breast size from 44D to 36B.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 22:37:58 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maharaji's 'satsang' has always been edited Message:

Yes, indeed it has always been heavily edited. I worked closely with this for many years and can attest to that (right Cliff??). Whole chunks taken out, sentences reconstructed for meaning and clarity, uh's, ah's, it's like's, you know's all removed of course. I also had the job of transcribing it (like totally divine, man, at the time) and would just try and leave that stuff out before it ever even got to the editor. Good post, Joe, above. Never heard the word filament either, up to 1981. Can't say anything about after that time, but I can definitely and 100% unequivocally say he NEVER used that analogy from 1973-1980. So he is lying and revising there, as usual. He did however, say stuff like you quoted, and 'Surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you peace.' Loads of stuff along than line. And stuff about Guru being not just God, but GREATER than God, because Guru SHOWS you God, which you wouldn't have been able to get to before (boy, do I take exception with that now!). And yes, they did airbrush his zits. Don't know about the booby's, though, I think that's all his natural assets!

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:13:26 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: call it 'ongoing revisionism' - Message:

- I remember ooooh, long ago (like 1974, when I was slaving - sorry, premies, serving - in Hansa Graphic, the DLM printers of Maharaji's propaganda in the 70s) when the command filtered down to us that all copies of a particular photo of M wearing a blue turban were to be destroyed. Why? - you may ask. Someone, somewhere, said it had something to do with Nostradamus' prophecy about 'the man in the blue turban' (incidentally, for those to whom the phrase 'man in the blue turban' might as well read 'man in the zebra-striped pyjamas' - I think Nostradamus identified this particular guy as one of several 'antichrists' who were supposed to bring numerous bad-vibe scenarios on the human race. Antichrists did he say? Ah, well, to believe in them, you've got to believe in Christs.) . . . The above is fact, not fantasy, and there are at least a dozen former (or are they still current?) premies who could attest to it, though why, I wonder, should they even bother to? Then again, why not? (if 'the truth will set you free') . .

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 19:53:50 (GMT) From: Patrick Conlon Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Marianne, Fraudulent misrepresentation Message:

Exactly. You know I can't tell you what we are working on here. But is along those lines. The problem is that the Rev will say he did not say it. He has been very clear that he will not write a book about K (only idiotic poems) because he does not want anything in writing. The editors also maintain anonymity for the same reason. The church-ladies also refuse to put anything into writing and would never answer my emails. They are becoming creepier and more conspiratorial by the day and that suits me and my colleagues fine because it can now be proven that a supposed not for profit ''education'' organization is being used fraudulently. Hugs to you too and I hope those chapped lips are only from kissing the Blarney stone.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:44:12 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Revisionism Message:

He revised it and he didn't revise it, you know? He did both. He said he was he highest manifestation of God, or allowed his pr machine to print it and his mahatmas to preach those words and sentiments. And at the same time, he answered reporters' questions like that by saying he was just a humble servant of God. Makes me feel a bit like a blind man grabbing part of the elephant, and thinking I have the whole picture. Is this calculated? I think so. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:54:52 (GMT) From: Lurker #27 Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Revisionism Message:

Sandy, First off I think you are a good guy and I respect your beliefs, but how do you incorporate the above filament satsang with what is said about Maharaji on the Elan Vital website. I quote, 'He says he is an ordinary human being, no different from anybody else.' Is there no sense of cognitive dissonance for you? How can you believe these two things at the same time?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:17:43 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Lurker #27 Subject: Revisionism Message:

I used to think sheep was a 'good guy' too. Now I'm not so sure. He comes here and spouts satsang KNOWING FULL WELL it upsets people. Also he seems bent on justifying The Filament's many documented abuses by any means whatsoever. Also, Lurker #27, do you REALLY 'respect' sheeps beliefs? I find that kinda incredible. Shp is a lost cause, a real time waster. I don't know how long you've been lurking, but this guy is a lonely, terminally confused gas bag who is overly fond of the sound of his own 'voice.' Just thought you should know that.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:27:59 (GMT) From: Lurker#27 Email: None To: gerry Subject: gerry - different strokes. . . NT Message:

fjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:02:28 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Lurker #27 Subject: Revisionism Message:

Dear Lurker #27, Yes, I do definitely feel some cognitive dissonance in the two statements. Not to defend him, but to try to understand the syntax, I would say that by saying he's 'an ordinary human being' I think that means he eats, sleeps, shits and pees like us. What they do not say is that he is ordinary in the ordinary ways, but he has this particular gift or skill or mastery that makes him a bit extraordinary is one particular way. The omission of that does definitely create cognitive dissonance. I think more is necessary than a nod/wink between PWK's and PAM's to attain the clarity I think they are trying to put out. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 23:38:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: What you're doing, Sandy, depends on one thing Message:

In order for you to do whatever it is you're doing here, you simply have to fuck with the language. And that's what you do in spades. And guess what, Sandy? You're not fooling anyone.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:44:27 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: My motive is not based on fooling anyone. (nt) Message:

And motive is what it boils down to, not if the most correct word was used or if the grammer was correct. You are kidding, right?

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 05:00:51 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Sandy Subject: My motive is not based on fooling anyone. Message:

Please, Sandy, you are only trying to fool yourself. Maharaji is a liar and a fraud. You have been reading here way too long to continue this silliness.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:24:01 (GMT) From: Lurker #27 Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Revisionism Message:

Sandy, what you are saying is: He says he is an ordinary human being, no different from anybody else, but he has this particular gift or skill or mastery that makes him a bit extraordinary is one particular way. What I'm saying is if he says he is an ordinary human being, no diffferent from anybody else, it means that he is the same as me. There is no difference between us. We are the same. Equal. But, if he has this particular gift or skill or mastery that makes him a bit extraordinary is one particular way, then he is not an ordinary human being. Then we are not he same. Not equal. I know these are just words, semantics, but it seems to me that we have a bit of a conundrum here. A big contradiction. And some people (exes here) could interpret it as dishonesty or deceipt. Maharaji is giving them fuel to discredit him.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:40:14 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Lurker #27 Subject: Revisionism Message:

L27, I see what you are talking about and accept its presence as a valid point. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:37:17 (GMT) From: Lurker #27 Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy - one last concept! Message:

Sandy, Let me finish by saying that I don't believe in words. They don't run my life. It's all superficial surface stuff. What's important for me is, 'Am I centered or not....' In that respect I think we are the same.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:49:11 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Lurker #27 Subject: To L27 Message:

Lurker #27 responded: Sandy, Let me finish by saying that I don't believe in words. They don't run my life. It's all superficial surface stuff. What's important for me is, 'Am I centered or not....' In that respect I think we are the same. Lurker #27, Yes, I think we agree on that. And even in this embroiled paradox, I has felt pretty centered most of the time. The times I didn't were the times when my concepts of Maharaji and his real life behavior collided. That is what I am coming to terms with.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 23:48:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Lurker #27 Subject: And what a dumb concept it is! Message:

You 'dont' believe in words'? Does that mean anything? Besides that you're an old hippie?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:30:18 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, Rawat, you're not even the filament Message:

Rawat, So you're not God, eh? Just the filament, the little thing that is necessary for there to be light, without which no one would have light. What you are is a thief. If we accept your analogy, then that power source goes to EVERY PERSON's own filament, not just to you, you bastard. Try to get this into your gigantic head, you are NOT the one and only source of light in this world. People can be grateful for this life without your help. The freedom that people need is freedom from fake gurus like you. The power of this universe is sustaining each person, without your help. I don't need you to tell me my life is precious and simple. I don't need your so-called short-cuts or you telling me what direction to take in my life. Neither my life nor my heart has anything to do with you, THANK GOD!!!!

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 07:38:59 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Way Subject: I absolutely love this post, as the truth always Message:

is.... precious and simple.... Thanks Way

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 04:18:56 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Way Subject: blacklight, insane fuck-nt Message:

sfg

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:47:11 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Way Subject: Grateful, but not to him Message:

Well put, Toby! It is quite amazing to read this stuff after nearly two decades! I nearly got hypnotized by the rhythms and nonsensical trance of it. I found that there was a certain filter installed in my brain that could take this crap and translate it into something that could jerk me around emotionally. Fortunately, that particular wiring was very, very weak, a mere homeopathic version of its former self. The predominant wiring now causes me to feel amazement at the arrogance of someone who claims to be THE filament, and be the bestower of gratitude, happiness, connection to the heart. How dare he? Let me say that I am not averse to gratitude, happiness and heart connection. I have built my life around these qualities since leaving the cult. When I was a premie, the version of these that I thought I was experiencing was a coerced version. It wasn't okay to feel what I was really feeling - which makes all gratitude, happiness and heart connection pretty phoney. However, I do find that real gratitude IS the attitude that makes things work in my life. And I mean gratitude for all sorts of things - including my life, my breath, and the kinds of things for which MJ invokes gratitude, surreptitiously (well, not really) slipping himself in there as the main recipient. As with so many other aspects of life, such as my spiritual experience and my ability to enjoy a connection with a source energy through breath awareness, I have refused to allow MJ's hijack attempt to work in my life. In other words, first of all, he has nothing to do with my gratitude, happiness, heart connection, source connection, ability to appreciate simply living, breathing or any of the other things he claims ownership of to his followers. Second, I don't have to give these things up to leave him. Thanks for posting this crap, Jim. It's really worth a thousand of our posts in making it clear why we left. Love Disculta

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:16:25 (GMT) From: toby Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji in Oxnard Message:

yeah, it is obvious, fat rat is a philosopher, because all the joy he is talking about is just theory for him. Why else would he be an alcoholic, addicted to cigarettes, fucking series of blondes? I mean a cheap story teller thats all. Amazing. and No he is not god anymore just a fat wire. he just did't notice that he shortcircuited a long time ago and there is no more use for him(just garbage)

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:56:02 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: toby Subject: Maharaji in Oxnard Message:

Hi Toby, Let's say you are lost in your car on the side of the road somewhere in a remote location. You have all your maps unfolded out on the seat, you have the name of your destination on a piece of paper, but you have temporarily lost your sense of direction and your points of reference. A dark blue Aston Martin screeches up next to you in a cloud of dust. Rock and roll music - Frampton - is playing very loudly on a state-of-the-art sound system, the pungent scent of hashish smoke is billowing out of the windows, there are obviously a few very beautiful women in the car shreiking and laughing with pleasure and fun, and the little guy behind the wheel leans out his window smiling and asks you if you are lost, if he can be of any assistance. you can't tell if this guy is Puerto Rican, Chinese, Mexican, Mulatto, Indian, or what, and you don't care. But there he is smiling at you offering to help you. He did not have to do that. And he is not demanding any compensation for the help. Turns out he knows the neighborhood you are lost in and guides you out of there with just a few turns and directions, which you gratefully jot down on a scrap of paper, not wanting to lose one turn and be going around in circles again. So after you get to where you were headed, or even just get back on a familiar road, what grateful traveler is going to judge and curse that little guy for his fancy car, his traveling companions, his hash smoke, or his loud music? Anyone who has any sense of appreciation at all will be grateful for the directions and not judge he who pointed the way out of being lost. Everything else is another matter, and some of those matters bother me too. But we were all lost travelers at a point in each of our lives, and Maharaji pointed us inside. That was good direction yesterday, today and forever. Whatever else are issues with him are independent of that fact. Don't even try to pidgeonhole me as a premie, ex-premie or anything. Labels can limit and kill expression. Just deal with what is here in black and white on your screen and whatever else you can pick up in between the lines. As with masonry, it's what's inbetween the rows that hold the whole thing together. Bricks stacked without mortar will fall over in a stiff wind, and words without the mortar of love, sincerity and committment to the truth will also fall over in a stiff wind of doubt or attack. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 20:41:21 (GMT) From: baz Email: None To: gerry Subject: four techniques Message:

gerry like many people who recieved k in the 70s I had heard of some of the techniques before, and even tried 2 of them without much success. although I know it was not the same for everyone,I personally experienced a lot during and after recieving k . why? probably because the whole cult mystique thing made me take four 'stupid, techniques seriously enough to experience them.it didn't cost me a penny (or a dime)and over 25 years later I still think there is something to k. as for m I guess the joke is it doesn't really matter who he is barry

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 23:01:15 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Appropriate responses to assistance Message:

Sandy, I have been helped by many people in my life. Sometimes it's been like you describe - a stranger giving directions when they didn't need to - and I'm grateful to them. But of course you are talking metaphorically. OK, here's how I would be grateful. If a meditation teacher taught me how to meditate, stayed accessible so that he could answer my questions, and encouraged me to give my love to the source within, or to all living things (but not to him). Then if the meditation did the stuff, I would be grateful. But Maharaji doesn't work that way does he? John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 00:57:04 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: To JHB Message:

Sandy, I have been helped by many people in my life. Sometimes it's been like you describe - a stranger giving directions when they didn't need to - and I'm grateful to them. But of course you are talking metaphorically. OK, re's how I would be grateful. If a meditation teacher taught me how to meditate, stayed accessible so that he could answer my questions, and encouraged me to give my love to the source within, or to all living things (but not to him). Then if the meditation did the stuff, I would be grateful. But Maharaji doesn't work that way does he? John. John, No, he doesn't seem to operate that way. He's got the 'triangle' and all that. The tradition of Perfect Masters - if you or I believe in them or not is not the issue here - is that they say to drop everything and follow them. It's documented. I don't know why, but that's how history records the lives of such people, or those who claim to be such people. There are meditation teachers out there who fit the description you said you would like to have. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 22:52:18 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Maharaji in That Fancy Aston Martin Has a Pricetag Message:

Hi Sandy. Just want to say I appreciate your analogy and feel like it's pretty heart-felt (and sort of accurate). Just want to add that it's a helping hand with a hefty price tag. Yeah, you can follow him out of the darkness, but does he leave it at that? No, there are all sorts of tentacles to then lasso you into his group and into him, forevermore. You're not just out of the desert, you're out of the desert and into something which is much more sinister and *seems* like the light, but actually is something else altogether. I would suggest you pay close attention to what Disculta is saying. She's saying you CAN experience all this stuff by yourself, without the aid of Guru or anybody else. And my experience post-Knowledge has been that ultimately you feel much better about yourself, and are a much more whole person, when you do. I'm coming to the conclusion that being a premie is for people who don't have very good self-esteem. It's easier to just let Maharaji guide you than try and find your way yourself, because you don't believe you can do it. But ultimately you get caught in his trap and if you rely on your own instincts and efforts instead, you are a whole human being at the end of your journey, and not a brainwashed cult-member reliant on someone else for your realizations and experience. Take back (or keep) your own power on the spiritual journey, never give it away. Love, Joy P.S. Been a Deadhead for years also, and what a long, fun trip that was--but I certainly haven't surrendered the reins of my life to Jerry Garcia!

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:53:07 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Sandy Subject: Cul-de Sac...Sandy Message:

Hi Sandy...your analogy just didn't stand up for me .In fact the blue Aston Martin brought me down a long cul-de-sac that took a while to get back from. I already knew that life was precious before the 'guru's intervention'..still do. But he led me into a thicket of guilt, authority, loss of dicrimination and the espousal of a pathetiacally simplistic and uncaring life view. I promise you that there is much more depth to life than the vision that m purports to offer, I DONT agree with people calling you an arsewipe for giving your current views however but I DO feel that for your own good you should try and de-programme yourself and read the book of your own life rather than trying to attain the aspirations of another's.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:58:38 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Tim Message:

Tim, Thank you for the non-judgemental and compassionate message. I will take it to heart. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:04:48 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: sheep Subject: Wake Up you gas bag... Message:

Look sheep, Tim's post was VERY judgemental. Can't you see that? No you can't because you have your head up your ass. You are just jerking people around here. You love the attention and you can't resist out gassing with what you perceive is your 'higher wisdom.' It aint wisdom, clown, it's regurgitation.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:40:54 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Sandy Subject: To Sandy Message:

Sandy, Your analogy does not apply to Maharaji at all. He does not pull up in his car, give correct directions, and then speeds away. He pulls up in his car and says: 'Hey, you lost? I'm your man. Just follow me. Keep on following me. And give me some gas money.' And then he pulls away. Do you follow, or not, and if so, for how long? By the way, your ongoing and personal argument with Jim gets in the way of any serious discussion here. I wish you would take it to Anything Goes. Your idea that Jim is actually doing service to Rawat is absolute hogwash. Jim is damning Rawat by his own words. Rawat clearly is indicating by his talk at Oxnard that he is the source of God in this world, and that is exactly what damns him.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:56:49 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Way Subject: To Way Message:

Maharaji has also said that he wants us to have the same experience he is having, and I take that to be having our filaments shining bright too. You forgot to mention that. I understand what you mean by him saying to follow and gas moeny, but those are options. I never gave that much and don't feel chained to follow, evidenced by my presence here. If I were 'chained' to his car, how could I do this with you? There is this big argument going on. Is Maharaji Good or Bad? Did he do this? Did he know that? And if so, when? It is obvious that Maharaji is very human, only higher profile and therefore more easily recognizable to those who can be objective about it. I am sure our own shit would look alot bigger too if we were in the limelight. He is spreading Knowledge. He is also doing human things along the way in his life that many of US find despicable upon first glance or even aftersome scrutiny. So I am seeing that it is all true, the good news and the bad news, in some degree or other, after the exagerration is taken out of both sides. This is not a defense, but a less violent and angry approach to the situation we have here among us. Even among ex-premies there are blood-and-guts zealots and those who are a bit more mellow about it. No one has the right to say how one should express their feelings and thoughts about this or anything else.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 21:11:59 (GMT) From: baz Email: None To: Sandy Subject: To Way Message:

sandy you know I started logging on to this site as a disillusioned premie but I find myself becoming even more disillusioned with ex-premies. they don't seem to have anything positve to say do they? next thing you know there will be a new site 'ex-ex-premie. org'? ps apparently I can't use baz as a handle because there's already a bazza in the forum! barry

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 09:40:28 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Sandy Subject: how does showing or telling people Message:

knowledge equate to his profligate waste of--no, lets take one step back--to his wanting our money, more and more and more of it, in the millions of dollars so he can live and operate the way he does? how does showing the techniques, once done person to person, and now done by darkening a room and rolling a video/DVD and having everyone in the room ape him on the screen, 'monkey see, monkey do', translate to frightening us and berating us and coercing us to be cruel to ourselves and our relationships, into not being allowed to build ourselves anchored careers, families, children, incomes, other involvements, other worship?how does what he was charged to show people, equate with what he has used his position to get himself? do you think you could do it? you know the techiques. could you start showing people the techniques, and then use it to go from asking for their attention to asking for their lives? could you stand yourself asking them to sell all their possession, telling them everything they knew and saw in the world is nonexistent and all they had in the world is you? could you live with yourself asking them, exhorting them, browbeating them, reducing them, humiliating them for not slaving to you enough? could you still do it after learning that they were committing suicide from their despair and stress and ill health as a direct result of following your tirades?could you actually escalate from there, to yelling for more and more money, to asking for cars, houses, booze, dope, smokes, planes, land, thousand dollar watches, million dollar planes, yachts, asking your manager to go out and bring sexy blonde babes you saw in the crowds to wait for you in 4 star hotel rooms, and slip away from your blonde wife and four kids, to go lay them, and then get rid of them? could you get so fat on your own self importance that you didn't give a fuck what happened to anybody, didn't give a fuck what anybody wanted but yourself, didnt give a fuck if the children of your followers were being sexually molested by one of your assigned agents, finally reaching a day when you killed a man with your car and ran away in cowardice from the law? could you do it, sandy? if the 4 techniques you were shown by your teacher, were the only things you started out to show simple, everyday people around you, in turn? and what happened , if you yourself never did those techniques anymore, yourself?. what would you be? would you be worthy of what you extorted, and went on extorting, from those people?

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:45:47 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: janet Subject: Well, since you put it like that.... Message:

No, janet, I could not do the things you mentioned, at least not if I was in my right mind. Besides reading your most confronting and direct post, I was also having some other thoughts this early morning as I prepare to go to work with my older son. We are going to be spending some rare quality time together doing some painting at a friend's new home about an hour away, and I am going to let him drive. That's a big deal for him and he's looking forward to it. It has snowed a little, so he will be especially happy to know that I trust him to handle it, and not say he can't drive because it might be slippery, etc etc. He has to learn sometime and somehwere and I am his father so it's my turn to be in this position. It reminds me of delivering him, and looking into his newborn eyes as I gave him his LeBoyer bath, and telling him that I am his dad and I'll be there for him for his whole life. Now is my chance to really 'be there' as he goes through this exciting time for him. I remember how cool it was to learn how to drive too, so I can still relate, not too old for that. Then I started thinking as I was getting ready, what would I do and what would I say to my beloved son if someday he came to me and told me he was following a teacher who I discovered had done all the things that you outlined in your post, as well as said all those things that John Tucker documented on his site and then denied having said them? In a way that would hopefully not turn him away from listening to me, I would try to tell him that something is wrong with this picture. Then I would conduct a search of my own with more intensity than I have been operating at here, so that I could present him with facts and documented information to support what I was saying. (That's an interesting phenomenon, that I would take more care and more action for my son's sake or someone else's sake than my own. Where did I learn to not love myself as much as I love others? Note to self: Love yourself too.) Thank you, janet, for giving it to me between the eyes, but not in an insulting way. That's how I like it. I need courage now. Strength of heart. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:21:27 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Sandy Subject: no, no, no, those are not options! Message:

No, Rawat does not present following him as an option. No, no, no. Never, never, never, never. That is all he ever says to his premies. He says: 'Follow me. I am the living filament that is lit. Get your light from me. I am the coach that is telling you what direction to run.' That's all he ever says. He never says that there is a direct link from the Power Source to your own filament that can be lit without the Master. Never. The facts that you don't give him much gas money and you feel free to post here and you don't feel chained to follow are all options that you have given yourself. But you are going contrary to Rawat's teachings when you do that. He has never once said there are such options. He always says 'Get behind me. Follow me. To your dying day!' And what he does is drive around, with his followers going nowhere. I'm not telling you how to express yourself here. But I am saying that you are dead wrong when you present Rawat as a friendly man who gives the proper directions.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:08:59 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: None To: All Subject: m is superficial Message:

The magician master gives the light ! Follow the master and enjoy (and get crazy and stupid). The others don’t know anything about freedom. The master knows. Il is a scandal. This guy doesn’t know anything about the human mind, knowledge , meditation, the unconscious etc…People who imagine that the four techniques and so called guidance of this master lead to somewhere are condemned to stay stucked with the a big feeling of culpability that m reinforces every time he speaks. Knowledge and happiness stay a dream when you follow m. All the confusion stays the same. There in no real work on oneself. People who practice the technics that m shows look inside and may have nice experiences ( that was the case for me) but in the same time there is no cleaning and no transformation. On day, black forces may come back with a lot of power. That happened to me. Big depression. Deep sadness and anxiety without apparent reason. I could meditate and calm myself but after it was as horrible as before. I got rid of that with buddhist meditation and good teachings from different instructors and a friend. All the suffering and tensions slowly came out. No repression anymore. No more master, money, indoctrinement and beleives. Now I enjoy meditation but the four technics of m, I don’t use anymore. You don’t need them even to see light and nice things. But these things come in times. They are not essential.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:35:13 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: Very true Jean-Paul -- great post! (OT) Message:

Meditation that calms the mind is invaluable, but everything comes back to you if you don't do more than that. You are right -- there is no way to avoid doing a little work on oneself, being mindful, and seeing things for what they are. Going 'inside' with your eyes closed is only going to get one so far.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:57:31 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: jfagnaux@hotmail.com To: Francesca Subject: no need saviour Message:

First, I forgott to introduce myself. I live in Brussels, Belgium. I speak french. Who knows, may be old friends will recognize me. (girl from Argentina living in Miami, are you there?) M says he shows light, true nature. But what we are is also lot of things. Only try to look for light is nonsense. Because the fondation is not clear. No understanding of all our internal forces. We have to look at that, face that and understand their nature. And light and love may come naturally without the grace of anybody. This last month I dream 2 times that m was dead. I feel he is nearly dead for me in my mind and I feel free.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:44:32 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: exactement Jean-Paul! Message:

Great post.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:08:31 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: You buttwipe Sandy Message:

You fucking hypocrite, lame brain mystic jerk off premie. Get lost. You had your chance. Stop your fucking outgassing here. You're making me sick to my stomach with all your bullshit.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 23:55:22 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Oh Stoooonoooooorrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!! Message:

Stonor, Would you please get your crew together for a silent vigil or something? It looks like poor Sandy's being bullied again. By the way, now that you're reading this, tell me the truth. Didn't you tell us that you were here to study the human interaction? My girlfriend's got a good memory, Stonor. Better than mine. We both remember something to that effect. Come on now, please be honest.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 04:45:32 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's my recillection too, Jim -nt- Message:

b

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 20:00:03 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: JohnT Subject: What exactly do you remember, John? (nt) Message:

hhhhhhh

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 22:08:25 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not a lot, I'm sorry to say Message:

Now, let me think aloud, it may jog your memory too. There was a ding-dong about theisism sparked by your assertion that agnosticism (a term coined by T H Huxley to mean that knowledge of a Supreme Being is impossible) is closer to atheism than it is to Theism. I think some people took the agnosticism to mean dunno or not sure and accordingly argued that you were most certainly wrong. (This is making my head hurt!) You were present then, and Stonor might have been asked what she was about at that time. Another time, when you were on holiday, Stonor teamed up with an ex (who, for whatever reason had not made his real name known) in an attempt to moderate ex-premie to premie exchanges. Joe had opposed the idea, but Stonor was sure she knew better and persisted. In that exchange I explicitly argued that free speech should not be so fettered; that Stonor's position made it unwise for her to pursue her campaign against what she saw as intemperate ex-premies; and that she should take care to be less extreme in her expression than the objects of her opprobrium. That embroilment ended when you returned. I recall you made a post whose title referred to choking on your own vomit; her rejoinder was a post whose title referred to force-feeding; I found her language to be the more violent (choking on one's own vomit is a graphic and unpleasant metaphore; so is force-feeding but that also involves premeditated violence against a passive protestor). So I explained to her that self-starvation is the ultimate act of disempowered defiance and illustrated the point with the true story of the Right Honourable Bobby Sands MP. I have the vaugest inkling (now) that it was around this episode that she claimed to be some sort of disinterested social scientist interested in the dynamics of this forum, who could heal the tempests that periodically erupt here. IF I am right, then it would have been as the row was brewing. I had made it clear (as I am wont) in a post to an ex that I am no ex - and, challenged, I explained in a post entitled Trouble and Strife (that is cockney rhyming slang for wife, you see) my involvement with the rogue Maharaji. Dammit! This is hard. So much goes down here! If only the person was candid and co-operable (Yeah, I know; we wouldn't have a problem with her at all if that were the case). ALSO; Stonor once posted a link to Bully OnLine to guide us in our efforts at cult-busting. Now I'm feeling I'm getting warm... The irony of its subtitle (Those who can, do. Those who can't, bully.) being completely lost on her, it may well have been then that she made her pretentions clear. I do hope this helps jog someone's memory. Why should Stonor stonewall on this question? Why? JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:19:29 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: gerry Subject: Buttwipes get rid of shit, you need 'em pal Message:

So that's the deal? I have to preach the ex-party line with every breath or be demonized here? No objectivity allowed whatsoever? God, this is more oppressive than premieworld!

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 10:00:56 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Sandy Subject: animals don't use toilet paper, and only Message:

infants, the senile, the paralyzed, the comatose, and the invalid need someone else to wipe their butts for them. they are blameless and at the mercy of the compassionate. If there are none, they lay in their own shit. from the age of two, on, human beings wipe their own shit away and wash themselves clean out of self awareness and self respect. only a despicably diarrhetic asshole like maharaji makes others wipe his ass and clean up his shit and demands gold toilets in which to do it. he does not need, deserve or merit your compassion, sandy. In point of fact, he has nothing but contempt for it. Stop wiping his ass for him Sandy. Your singular life is not toilet paper to your creator. By the way, the Creator does not need toilet paper, nor a toilet, nor any of his creations to wipe his ass or his shit , off him or anything else. He has it all taken care of.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:29:06 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Having a little relapse, sheep? Message:

Re-read your absolutely STUPID post about Jim. Then your goofy satsang about goober in the Aston Martin. Face it: you're a premie. Be happy about that and get the fuck out of here with your satsang bullshit. We've ALL had enough of that shit for a lifetime, and some people here are extremely sensitive to satsang, asshole. Did you miss the big sign at the top of the page? It says ex-Premie, jerk-off.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:43:56 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: gerry Subject: Having a little relapse, sheep? Message:

'The Forum is an unmoderated collection of ongoing threaded discussions where ex-premies, current premies, and non-premies express their views on anything and everything related to following Maharaji, practicing Knowledge, and life afterwards.' -excerpt from Forum intro page Gerry, When you are watching the Superbowl this weekend, if you do, will you only appreciate the great plays made by the team that you are rooting for? Or will you give credit for where it is due, if the team you are not rooting for does something really cool? Like I said up higher, don't even try to label me. That is a very thin argument, calling me a premie, like it is a curse. I am just calling them like I see them, using both sides of my brain. Open up. Be sure of yourself to have a stand but be garcious enough to give credit where it is due. It is you who seem to be relapsing, calling me a sheep. Am I supposed to snap back into line so that I don't get called names by the likes of you? Is that what you expect me to respond to, your namecalling peer group pressure? I have already stated my case that I am blown away, pissed off and disillusioned by some of the stuff that has gone down on Maharaji's watch. But I have not lost my complete fucking mind over it. If that is the price to enter here, it is the same price that you claim he demands, so what's the difference? Two sides of the same coin. I want a new coin to flip or have this one cleaned up. It seems to have landed in some shit, so I want to wash it off and see what is really imprinted on the coin, both sides. That may take a lifetime or five minutes, I don't know. But I sure don't want to go through life like an angry fire ant while all this is being worked out. If I got to choose what to be thinking about if I get hit by a bus and killed later today, I'd much rather be thinking about how great life is/was than whether Maharaji is really a Master or not. You are obsessed and I am not. Obsession is not a goal of mine. They say that everything comes out in the wash, which remeinds me that I have some laundry to do. Good day. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 11:35:56 (GMT) From: toby Email: None To: Sandy Subject: high sandy Message:

nice story ,or philosohy? Isn't it too bad that the nice guy with the big car didn't stop for the poor bycicle driver in India ? OOOps! He just killed him. And then ran away. Doubtful character. You have no idea where you were pointed to. That is the reason for you to justify m. you just got caught and you don't recognize that. Toby

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 01:34:05 (GMT) From: baz Email: na To: Sandy Subject: well said Message:

whatever the truth about maharaji knowledge seems to work for me even after 25 years and cost me nothing

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 16:35:31 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: baz Subject: baz, you do know... Message:

that the four techniques are very common and widely known yoga kriyas, right? And that Rawat has no claim on them as his own whatsoever. And that Rawat used these simple kriyas as the bait to entrap thousands of naive people into thinking he was something special. And can you tell what you mean when you say 'knowledge works?'

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 20:47:50 (GMT) From: baz Email: None To: gerry Subject: reply sent to wrong message Message:

gerry please see message '4 techniques' approx 25 messages back barry

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:59:13 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: sheep Subject: Yeah, yer right, sheep, can't beat your logic, Message:

you're a lost cause and a waste of time. Why don't you just shut up, you fucking wind bag?

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