Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:45:39 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Charlie Subject: Come out of the closet Message:

Actually, if you look at Enjoyinglife.org (be sure to refrain from eating before hand, and prepare to gag), I think it's amazing how very few premies actually post anything there. You will find a few individuals putting up inanities regularly, however, the overall number is declining and is rather small, I would say quite a bit smaller than the hundreds of people who have posted on this forum, just in the past 6 months. [If you have nothing else to do, go back and count the number of people who go through this forum. It's very large.] On the other hand, it's very easy to spout cult-speak instead of really being honest about yourself and what you know to be true, and that does make it easier to write crap on Enjoyinglife.org, if you have no pride or self-respect, that is. Let's face it. Many people remain premies because they perceive it as the path of least resistence. They hold onto their belief system, parrott it to other premies, and they don't have to look at themselves any deeper. The process of abandoning the cult is extremely confronting for many people, and it was for me. As you say, it can also be very disruptive to give up the premie identity and the simplistic schmaltz of it all. I think that's one of the reasons journeys are so difficult to write. I still haven't written one, despite having been 'out' about who I am for a long time now, but it is one of my resolutions to do so. I agree completely that coming out is very empowering. And I say this as someone who has 'come out' a number of times in my life. But like LE said, there is the issue of 'coming out' as an ex-premie, and then there is the issue of 'coming out' on the internet. They can be different things and have to be weighed individually. Also, keep in mind that 'coming out' as an ex-premie, also means 'coming out' about the fact that you were once a PREMIE. For me, that is the difficult, embarrassing thing to go public about. I have been, on numerous occasions, thoroughly embarrassed about people knowing I ever WAS a premie, and in many instances I would rather people I know, do business with, who rely on me for professional advice, etc., not know that I used to be in a very bizarre cult. So, keep in mind that it might be in that area where the reticence to reveal oneself on the internet might come from. But I have made the decision that the advantages of being public about who I am are greater than not doing so.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 12:44:48 (GMT) From: Charlie Email: None To: Joe Subject: working relationships Message:

Joe, that's interesting about ELK, maybe I've been fooled by the way they layout the sections of the site. It always looks to me as though there's a lot of contributors and activity there, however I don't spend very much time trawling through those pages so haven't noticed the recurring faces. I know what you mean about feeling embarrassed about your past involvement but I have discovered that most people I have met don't really care or understand anything about cults so they don't look at me badly. If they find out about my past and ask questions I am quite frank with them, then they shrug their shoulders and forget it. To an extent I think people I meet at work who have little or no experience of cults are more likely to be in danger from their attraction to cults than I am from their perception of me as a loony. The only worry I do have regarding work relationships is what people would do if they thought I was spending more time with in anti-cult activities instead of the job (during work time that is). My main point is that I don't think any ex-premie has anything to worry about with regards to coming out. What could possibly happen? Premies that I know are too peaceful to attack me physically or even to put a brick through my window, when you really think hard about it you realise that there's nothing they would do. In most cases all they'll do is keep away from you which is fitting with the soggy premie attitude. Jim mentioned the case of marriages that might be under stress if it became known that one partner was suddenly playing for the opposition. To keep it secret is still stressing the relationship, you end up with growing resentment, no love and no point. Yes, every time I consider it I have to say that honesty is the best policy. You simply feel better as a person and isn't that what we all want? Actually when I first posted on the forum there were so many weird names listed I actually got the impression that I was required to have an alias! I can tell you I was very relieved when I realised it was OK to be me! Charlie

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 20:12:44 (GMT) From: one who cares/who cares? Email: None To: Charlie Subject: working relationships Message:

I was 'out' about it for a couple of years. Some of the premies I knew were put off by it and some overlook it. I think they might feel sort of a pity over me 'being confused' like some ex's might feel about some premies. I still, pitifully perhaps, feel a pang of love or longing or sadness for M regardless of all of the shared ex-attitudes I have had. For that, I guess, Gerry hates me now, if Gerry is showing a true face here. Or, if not hate than perhaps disgust or fear? My reasons for becoming anon here have more to do with my recent experiences with a doctor who thought I might benefit from a short stay in a hospital when I was very emotional. She knows all about my posting here and I thought it would be best for me not to be so damned public about my self and my personal email address and so on. It is not a healthy thing to do...from a psychiatrist's point of view, to air all your personal feelings and beliefs in a setting where they can be torn apart and ridculed. It is sort of Gestalt therapy here in a way 'though. I can have my ideas challenged in a way that is healthy for me. Some friends would not want to risk losing you if they really said what they thought to you. People here don't hold back on that. It can be a good thing. But it can be done without meaness and ridicule. For example:Some people believe that spanking a child is a good way to teach them what is bad to do. Yeah, it teaches that spanking is bad to do! Kids learn that bigger, stronger people can control you by hurting you. Some of them go on to do this to their own children. Some parents also think that ridicule and comparisons are teaching tools...the 'I'm only telling you this for your own good, but you look like a slob and you're stupid!' sort of speeches. Both kinds of abuse make kids tougher and stronger to face the world, they might argue. 'I took it from my parents, so you can, too' says the abuser. In some US states, in order to adopt a child, you have to agree not to use corporeal punishment.(In Texas where the republican presidential candidate comes from, it is still OK to spank kids in school with sticks...or if not now, it was a few years back.) Too bad the law is less protective of children who are verbally or emotionally abused. I think it is unacceptable in any venue. It can trigger past abuse memories in people who have had it, and it it cruel and unnecessary to make a point to use it! I don't mean swearing for expression, I mean name calling and put-downs and using personal information shared in trust, against you, etc. Back to the anon vs. open issue: I took off my journey entry and white pages recently. No long lost friends contacted me over publishing them, which was what I published them for in the first place. Besides, in the US, all kinds of communications are being monitored in the name of Nat'l security. Big brother is watching. We might all be considered worth watching, just because we post here and were ever involved in a cult. And then, my husband doesn't like the idea that all kinds of sales people and unscrupulous scam artists can get a hold of information on you from so many sources anyway. Especially if you give them all kinds of information publically. People actually get their identities ripped off and credit histories ruined by it. I think it is common sense, not paranoia, be pull back from display. Since I don't really know anyone here, except Gerry, and Mike from the SW, and Michael Read from the NW of the US; why does it matter that I use my real name here anyway? It doesn't prove anything about sincerity or honesty. I am honest about myself by whatever name I call myself, and the reader can judge for themself how to take it. I got K in 1972 and was active in premie houses as a housemother, and householder through the end of the comuunities. I continued to sometimes see M and sometimes meditate until spring of 1998 when I came here. I left all belief systems and then even the anti-beliefs of the anti-cultists for another healing year and a half, then I was active here again last winter as an ex who doesn't like labels of any kind and still doesn't like name-calling and abusiveness! Then I saw a live video of M and dared to say that I thought some of his message was good, and I felt love for him and loved by him. Getting beat up over it isn't going to change the fact that I feel what I feel or don't know what I feel sometimes. I don't practice K or support M. I am now both a 'bad premie' and a 'bad ex-premie' which is why I think we should shuck all the labels! It would be more humane! I have friends on both sides and friends who don't take sides. That is who I am now...I refuse to take sides because if I have to take sides...I am an outsider. I have not been afraid to tell M and his friends what I don't like about the whole thing. But I also don't think it is horrible or stupid or unforgiveable to be a 'premie' if one is so inclined. Your photo is cute. A caricature artist could really do a good one from the sort of fisheye lens look!

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 17:44:01 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Charlie Subject: 'Maharaji suggests that' Message:

didn't this really bug the shit out of you when some supposedly more evolved premie would lay that one on you in order to get you to do something.. now I really don't care cuz all I want to do is kiss his stinking lotus feets..but maybe some people are just plain tired of unsolicited advice

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 16:49:14 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Charlie Subject: Attacks by Premies Message:

I agree that there is very little change of any kind of attack by premies on ex-premies. I have never felt that was a real concern. My only point was that it's a bit more complicated than just 'coming out' as an ex-premie. It's one thing to 'come out' to premies, for which I don't think there is anything to fear, besides losing friends (and possibly domestic relations problems where kids are involved), but there are other relationships and concerns that have to be considered, including revealing the fact that you were once in a cult, and in fact, in my case, you were in one for a decade, living a monastic life, and enriching Maharaji, who is the biggest embarrassment of all. I agree that people I get to know and can explain my history have never been a problem. But in a professional setting, in which you often don't have the opportunity to make a lengthy explantion, I would rather that people not find out and wonder about my sanity, judgment and stability, especially if they are paying a high hourly rate for my supposedly professional, thoughtful advice.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:14:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Charlie Subject: THIS is one fantastic post! Message:

So well said, Charlie. Anonymity is for cult members anxious about maintaining themselves within the cult where any wrong move might mean a slide down the pillar. I know one of the big justifications for anonymity some have bandied about is concern about estranged premie ex-wives or husbands retaliating somehow but I think SB is a good example of how thin that threat can be when tested. We're dealing with a paper tiger cult leader and everyone should know that. We should know it because he sure does.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 12:46:53 (GMT) From: Charlie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thank you darling! (nt) Message:

zxdv

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:17:05 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Jim Subject: my daddy told me never to talk to strangers Message:

Dear Jim, The assumption that many make is that if one doesn't post one's full name and address in a public forum on the internet it is because of ones status as an ex premie. For me that is not the case, I am simply being careful about the world at large. I agree wholeheartedly with what Charles said about the impact of standing up among your friends and 'service colleagues' and saying HAMMY SUCKS, it does have an impact, and I feel really good about it. I am happy for any premies to know I am an EX AND PROUD OF IT (Selene, I like exes too!), and any premie reading my posts would know who I am if they know me, Lesley is my real name. I do realise, however, that if it weren't for those of you who ARE prepared to give your name and address publicly, this site and forum wouldn't have got off the ground, and I feel so grateful to the EPO for all the help I've received. Lotus Eater

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 19:37:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: my daddy told me never to talk to strangers Message:

On the off-chance - you're not the same Lesley who was in the Edinburgh ashram in the early/mid 70's are you?

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 19:31:03 (GMT) From: Lotus eater Email: None To: cq Subject: no, London in 73 from adharanand Message:

then I moved to Sydney, OZ in 75.

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Date: Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 16:42:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lotus eater Subject: Thanks for clarifying that -PS love your posts(nt) Message:

sdhgf

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 21:44:47 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: my daddy told me never to talk to strangers Message:

Hi LE I have had some self-questioning lately, about my lack of anonymity. It's smart to be cautions. I don't know, if I had to do it all over what I would choose. Caution was never one of my strong points :( Your sincerity comes arcross very strongly. It's the people who constantly challenge and disrupt, or personally mess with me, while hiding in their anonymity that bother me. You are obviously not one of them!! hey I haven't written a journey yet either. In spite of being totally out there at times on the forums I am intimidated by writing one. Even though I meant what I told Jenn, they really help new ex's.

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 21:01:57 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Selene Subject: the journey entries Message:

Dear Selene, thanks for your post. Yes, it was reading the journey entries that encouraged me to join in the forum. These were letters from my peers, it touched me greatly. I have started writing mine, after a few false starts, I decided to concentrate on the journey of exiting, rather than the whole thing, even so the story is so big I quail at the task. I kissed his nasty sock I slaved for him and paid for the privilege I loved a fat slob on a stage I can live with these facts, even get some good laughs I experienced acute mental emotional suffering (I am indeed fortunate not to be one of the suicide statistics) I'm not laughing about this yet, I doubt if I ever will, however I can live with this, just, with a little help from my friends I put my husband through hell for no good reason I can't live with this, though I am delighted to be able to say that we are living together very happily again and time and patience are waving their magic wand, I need to understand it better. I hope writing my journey will help. Lesley

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Date: Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 22:05:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: I brought my husband to see the bigM!! Message:

He was cult free til he met me. Fortunately he never fell for it, just put up with it for the years since 91 til 97 when I flew off at a weeks notice or less to spend 400-1000 dollars to stay in hotels, flight, meals, lost wages, etc. to see the fat guy on the stage. He put up with all of it. and worse yet he still is, as I work through my stuffed repressed crap, and act out like a crazy woman. o?!?! oh!! Am I blaming???? Thanks Leslie. I think I can relate. your sense of humour is great too!! :)

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 17:16:48 (GMT) From: Mrs. W C Email: None To: Selene Subject: I brought my husband to see the bigM!!:Me too. Message:

I was remarried in 1987 and took mine to see M once and then to a few videos, which was then at various rented or borrowed public sites. While he found M to be kind of funny and had some interesting things to say, he could not fathom the idea of spending hours and hours going to videos and programs all over the world to get something that M did not really explain in his talks other than in extemely general terms. I also did not feel any urge to push my husband to get K, because I hadn't seen that having the K caused any miraculous positive changes in the people who had it, some for many years, like me. Still, I valued it as the best meditation techniques I knew of, even if I didn't use them exactly as taught or very often anymore! I saw M only one more time between then and now. And two or three years ago began the painful breaking away from my premie thought patterns. Still working on it. Glad my husband was never inclined to be a follower. He is a great person and great for me to be with. Grace of ???God, I think.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 16:21:52 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: I agree Jim - Tempting. nt Message:

gkhjg

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Date: Thurs, Sep 07, 2000 at 19:04:52 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: jtucker@dircon.co.uk To: Rawat the Rat Subject: Heck, I'm not ever ... Message:

...going to be a premie. Never wanted to be one, neither. I did like the cloak and dagger stuff though (sigh). Hey, Rawat! If you were half a man you'd sue me for this. And if you were half a poet, you'd write me a few sonnets. But if you were half decent, you'd die of shame. You're a poet, are you, Rawat? Laugh? I most certainly did! My name is John Tucker. If you want to know more, just follow the link.

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Date: Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 08:02:27 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Heck, give you a bottle Message:

Sue you? What a joke. Your charges are BS. Oh, you write on the web. Big deal! How cute.

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