Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 08:28:58 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Tonette Subject: All of His other experiments failed, BTW! Message:

Tell me about only one that succeeded beside him becoming a jet flying millionnaire?

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:44:05 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Tonette Subject: debt and closing Message:

How much debt was present when all was said and done? Several thousands of dollars in my area Did M help to off set any of the monies? No How was the debt divided among the participants? Unequally Did former ashram members ... help with the debt? No How did you guys pay it? A little at a time Did you have any credit history or credit cards? Already max'd out, damaged credit history Did you take loans? Wouldn't have helped Could you refuse to pay? No, some was in my name How much notice was given before the actual closing? Maybe a couple of months or so. How was property divided? Unequally, and the assets didn't go to those left with the debt. I remember a former ashram premie asking rawat 'What was that about?' and rawat replied something like 'Mistakes were made.' Very Regeanesque.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: G Subject: To G.... Message:

Thanks for you responses on this. I am wondering. Could you just give a narrative explanation of what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was? Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc. Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this? After it was announced that the ashram was closing, how did that proceed? Was there a deadline by which the ashram was supposed to be closed? I think the details are important about this, and I for one, and very interested, as you know. This is a very important subject and certainly an area in which Maharaji is the most vulnerable to direct criticism. When you say that the debt was divided unequally, on what basis, if any was the debt divided? Did you get stuck with a lot of debt because it was in your name? [This was something that I was always afraid of myself, because I was always putting a lot of ashram debt on my personal credit cards and if push came to shove I would be legally responsible for it, no matter how many people in the ashram, and certainly Maharaji, benefited from that debt. Fortunately, I left before the final closing and left broke, but not in debt.] I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else. Basically, any details would be extremely helpful. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 18:52:19 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: To G.... Message:

...what happened in the closing of your ashram? Specifically, can you tell us, how you were first told the ashram was closing and what the explanation was? Where I lived, first there was a loosening of the ashram rules. Premies established their own bank accounts, and - Oh my God! - men and women actually lived in the same house. If premies wanted to leave the ashram, that was suddenly considered ok, in fact, it was now encouraged, whereas before you would go to the equivalent of Hell. There was some spin put on the whole thing, but I don't remember the details, it was all bewildering. There was also an ashram 'purge' during which a large number of ashram premies were now pressured - not just encouraged - to move out, and individual ashrams were closed. 'Purge' was actually a word that was used. The supposed idea was that the ashram was being 'cleaned up', purged of ashram premies deemed inferior, leaving only the so-called elite. I was kicked out of one ashram, I went to live at another, then that one was told to close. I think there was a deadline given. I don't remember being told during this period that 'the ashram' as an institution was going to be shut down completely. One thing I was told - by an 'ordinary' ashram premie - was that 'Maharaji' wanted us to be 'more normal'. That was about it. There was no mention of the reasons that Dettmers wrote about. It seems like a 'blame (and insult) the victim' strategy was taken. The 'more normal' wording implied that ashram premies were abnormal. Ok, we were, but why? It wasn't my idea to move into an ashram. Rawat said later that it was 'an experiment that didn't work' and 'mistakes were made'. Saying that it was 'an experiment' suggests that he didn't know what the outcome would be, which doesn't fit with his coy (and not so coy) implications of being all-knowing, nor with his claims of being 'the Master'. Who set up the failed experiment? He did. He told people to move in. He wrote the ashram manual. He was the head of the whole thing. What 'didn't work' meant was never described, nor was 'mistakes were made'. Maybe one thing he meant was that the ashrams weren't giving him enough money. There did seem to be a trend towards giving less money to DLM and Rawat, maybe that pissed him off. The whole affair was very confusing and painful. First I was pressured into the ashram, then kicked out. Why do I say I was pressured to move in? Because Rawat said that he wanted all single premies to move in the ashram, and whatever he wanted was perceived as pressure. He was making it out like, if you want to 'realize Knowledge', you move in the ashram. I perceived him as the authority figure, the expert, so I moved in. There's a book called 'You're Smarter Than They Make You Feel' that describes how 'experts' intimidate us. I think I'll post about it. I had very mixed feelings about the closing, I was both relieved and deeply hurt. When I heard that the 'elite' ashram was closed, instead of blaming Rawat, I thought, 'It serves them right.' Rawat is very slick at casting the blame on others. Who coordinated the closing of the ashram -- dividing up the debt, etc. It didn't seem coordinated. Where I was, the debt just ended up being paid by the persons who officially owed the debt. Did you get anything directly from Maharaji, like a letter, a video, or was there ever an ashram meeting in which Maharaji disclosed this? I don't remember any letter or video or meeting like that, nor do I remember being told that it was 'Maharaji' himself who explicitly ordered the ashram closed. There was no statement made like 'forget about those vows', no explicit release from the vows, just that he wanted us to be 'more normal'. It was more implied than actually stated, whereas before the vows were explicit. That was confusing for people used to being told what to do. I think the closing was made out to be, well, 'Maharaji' wants us to be 'more normal', so we should close the ashrams, it's us premies that are closing the ashrams, not him. It seemed like it was made out to be our fault that the ashram didn't 'work', that we were - in response to his gentle guidance - admitting our failure. Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame. When I was in the ashram, there was a lot of talk about having the ashram 'ready' for a visit by him. Premies would dream about him visiting their ashram. It never happened, even when he was in town. I think it served him well for the premies to keep dreaming. He acted like we were not worthy of him. I can't imagine the ashrams had much in the way of assets. Most of the ashrams were rentals, and maybe there was some furniture and a few decrepit cars, but I can't imagine there was much else. That was about it, not all the cars were decrepit, but I think they were all used economy cars. Still, for an ashram premie, that seemed like a lot.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:08:21 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: G Subject: Thank you so very much! One more thing........... Message:

What city were you living in at the time?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 02:05:40 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Best of forum Subject: This should be readily available, as in best of Message:

Okay who's in charge? This response should be forward and center

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 11:45:20 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: G Subject: To G.... Message:

Rawat likes to pretend at times that he's so laissez-faire, that way, he doesn't have to take the blame. Think this was the biggest spin trick of all, and the perfect counterbalance to lila, enabled him to cover all spectrums. Certainly there were also quite a few single premeies committed to k and m who could always find quotes from gm to balance the ashram pressure. That laissez faire attitude of his, minmal rules compared to other religions, suggested greater confidence in its roots, and is always the angle of resistance by premeies to 'it;s a cult'. The one area of spin he's good at, covering the angles.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 06:34:47 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Joe Subject: Please G would you post these remarks Message:

I really hope that you can find the time and where with all to elaborate. Yours is the only post that begins to answer what I've have asked in this thread. Please, pretty please?

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 07:10:22 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: G Subject: Please G would you post these remarks DITTO! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:16:28 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Maharaji's Ashram Scandal Message:

I think the cavalier way in which Maharaji handled the ashrams is something that will dog him for the rest of his life. There are too many of us out there who aren't about to forget what a rotten thing Maharaji did to us, and how little he seemed to care about the ashram residents. There are a whole bunch of us out there who really resent what Maharaji did to us, which is just magnified by the fact that Maharaji gave insulting excuses like the one you mentioned, or just refuses to admit that there was any problem. As I mentioned down below, I left the cult in the Spring of 1983, and the ashrams were closed in the US, I think, later that year. So, when I left, I had nothing but my clothes, but I wasn't required to take on any debt, because, at that time, we all believed that the ashrams would go on forever. I was pressured heavily to remain, and people laid heavy guilt trips on me, but by that point, for me, the ashram wasn't the issue anymore, I no longer believed in Maharaji either. As I also mentioned down below, a large number of the ashrams were in debt almost all the time, mostly because of the cost of going to programs, the cost to donate money to Maharaji himself, the cost to support Elan Vital, the cost to support Elan Vital personnel and initiators who didn't work, and, very significantly, the cost to donate to various expensive toys Maharaji wanted, like that Boeing 707 monstrosity that cost (and wasted) millions and millions of dollars. Most of the ashram debt was on credit cards. When I was ashram housefather in two different cities, it was always a struggle to meet all the financial committments, because the ashram premies usually had relatively low-paying jobs, which they often lost because they had to take off for programs, and because Elan Vital moved people around a lot for 'service.' It was always a financial struggle to make ends meet. We had the advantage of living communally, but, besides debt, many of the needs that the ashram premies had, like medical, dental, clothing and other needs, were not adequately met, because there just wasn't the money. For example, I never had any dental work done the whole time I lived in the ashram because there wasn't any money for that. Of course, we really believed, because Maharaji told us, that he was taking care of us, because we had dedicated our lives to him. His grace would take care of us, which he told us over and over would happen if we just surrendered our lives to him. That, of course, was a pile of crap, the falsity of which was exposed when he whimsically decided in 1983 to just shut down the ashrams with no preparation whatsoever. We are told by people on the inside of the cult that he did it because he was worried about the ashram premies being a liability as they got older, and because the ashrams weren't the cash cows for him that they used to be. Just a few years previous, people like Randy Prouty, at Maharaji's direction, were harrassing people to move INTO the ashrams, if they didn't have kids, because that's what Maharaji wanted. It was also weird because just the year before the ashrams were closed there was a terrible ashram inquisition, in which people like David Smith harrassed and tortured the ashram residents to double their committment or to get the hell out if they weren't 100% devoted and surrendered to Maharaji. This was, according to David Smith, at Maharaji's personal direction. Then, the ashrams were closed about a year or so later, and from what I gather, little or nothing was done, financially, psychologically, or in any other sense, to help the ashram premies make the transition into the real world. Some of these people were true babies, if you know what I mean. Some had lived in the ashram for over a decade. There were in many cases great people, in fact, who just made the terrible mistake of trusting someone as deceitful and uncarring as Maharaji. As I said, this is a terrible scandal in the Maharaji cult, and I don't think it will be forgotten soon, especially if Maharaji continues stonewalling like he has, and refusing to admit the terrible mistakes he made.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:59:12 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Joe Subject: *Excellent Post Joe* and PS to Glen Message:

You know, after years of writing, rewriting and manipulating copy for all kinds of devious corporate executives, in order to put the most convincing and appealing veneer on their lies (sorry guys, but it pays the rent!) I can instinctively tell when something has been 'constructed' and when it just flows from real experience. There is a passion, a singularity of message which is almost impossible to fake. Reading Joe's post here, I had that feeling in spades. Compare this, if you will, with the pathetic, clumsy, stumbling fiction penned by Glen Whittaker on the EV site. His trick is brevity. Gloss over events spanning decades and affecting thousands of young people with a sparsity of words, leaving enough unsaid to provide leaway for the inevitable retorts to be covered with made-to-measure lies. Glen, I've done it. I do it for a living for chrissake. When the subject matter is incontroversial and dear to your heart, you gabble. When it comes to sticky areas, like messianic denials and 'failed ashram experiments' you skip through it as tersely as possible. Maintaining the flow in those areas takes work, and I guess all that Yorkshire pudding has turned you into a lazy fat fuck, just like your master. But there's trouble at 't mill, Glen. The natives are restless. I feel undercurrents going on, pusillanimous whispering among the faithful. Premies read your shit and it doesn't jive with their own experiences. They get confused, trying to see the lila in it all, but it hurts them too much. Then somehow they stumble in here and read posts like this one from Joe. It rings true, ironically just like that first satsang did all those years ago. And they start to wonder........

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 16:46:16 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Experiment that failed Message:

Yes, I do find goober's answer disturbing and evil, even. He's sounds a lot like 'Doctor' Mengele to me.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 08:03:16 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: gerry Subject: Lardman Maha Message:

Lardman Maha How do I hate you, Lardman Maha? With bile. I find you vile. Your leaching hands milk away Supporting strengths from other lives, And almost worse than this... You lie. You lie with all your brain's deceitful art To me; to mine; and worse, You lie to calm your greedy heart. I find you sad, but vile, Lardman Maha.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:57:49 (GMT) From: The observant Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Ashram Profits? Message:

Probably the policy was to divide the assets among the remaining ahram residents. Sounds pretty fair to me. In one country, I know for a fact that the remaining ashram residents divided furnitures and stuff, and a sum of about 40 000 $ was given to eash of those who still stayed in the ashram(the net cash after selling the ahsram appartement)

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:16:29 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: The observant Subject: Dream on, mr. observant Message:

You are living in a complete dream world.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:43:05 (GMT) From: The observant Email: None To: Way Subject: Dream on, mr. Way? Message:

Facts are facts. In this case there were only 3 left in the ashram. One person renounced the money. So the 2 left shared the money. One of them thought it was wrong to receive the money, so he gave it away to the person who arranged for the appartement, (this person had just lost her partner.) The ashram premies who ended up receiving his half, bought a vintage sports car and had a pretty easy life for a couple of years. The 2 other ashram residents do not come around any more. The person who renounced her part got married, studied medicin and her husband became a multimillionaire. (this is an irony in my opinion) In the community there were different opinions in this case. Right or wrong, I think it tells a great deal about the mentality of people in ashrams.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:25:09 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: The observant Subject: Response to: Dream on, mr. Way? Message:

Observant, Would you forget that I insulted you for a moment and tell us what country you are from? Your spellings are curious. And in what country was the ashram that you talk about? Ashram premies were not supposed to be property owners. It sounds like you are talking about a very, very unique case. I'm still confused as to the facts that you provide. Who actually owned the property and why would that money be split up among premies who only lived there? I can see why a premie profiting off Maharaji would have been very controversial in your community - that's a big premie no-no! In any event, your initial post not only spoke about that one case but about ashram premies in general sharing the profits. That's a total farce, and that's what I meant about you living in a dream world - you try to put a hopeful, positive spin on things that are actually negative, just to keep up appearances for your guru. You say that 'facts are facts' and I quite agree, and you need to look at the facts about Prem Pal Singh Rawat, even the facts that Elan Vital tries so hard to hide.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:44:15 (GMT) From: The observant Email: None To: Way Subject: Response to: Dream on, mr. Way? Message:

This might be a special case, my intention was just to state that sometimes things are different than what Yvette posted. This special appartement had regualtions so it could not be owned by an institution nor a company. Positive or negative is not for me to judge. By the way, re gerrys false accusations in his posts, I am finally having appointment with a terapist reagrding the damages I had being sexually abused as a child.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 02:55:16 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: The observant Subject: Thank you for your honesty Message:

Listen I know you get a bad rap here and so do you. But all that aside, would you tell me when you started following M? And what country do you live in?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:50:15 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: The observant Subject: To Bjorn Message:

Bjorn, I think it is unfair of you to be posting here under a new assumed name. I hope you get some help with your therapist. You might also mention to the doctor that you are currently following a guru who claims to be the equal of Jesus Christ.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 19:48:48 (GMT) From: The observant Email: None To: Way Subject: To Way Message:

First of all, I have for obious reasons changed my aliases. This is due to false accusations, outing and attacks on my person. In one of my posts as The observant, in a reply to Rob, I signed Bjørn. If you think that is unfair, dream on. Your reply tells me about the mentality of the ex-premies. Bottom line, I am a human being. Human beings are treated in a special way, Way, by the group that call them self ex-premies if those people happen to have a special belief. It is interesting to observe that you acept lies, false accusations, libel statements from your fellow believers, but jugde me for being unfair, because I am posting under different alias due to the reasons stated above.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:08:30 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: The observant Subject: Listen Message:

I didn't mean to incite a riot! I thank you for telling what you know. But listen, observant, most people here do not, at all, like M. Come on, we've been lied to, duped, sapped of our very spirituality by him. These are not small things for us to have endured as loving human beings. But please do not group us, as ex-premies, in some sort of sick mentality! We have personal things to work out as well as helping others who feel as I/we do. Our mentality is not in question. Rather our journey, I would think is in righting a WRONG. BTY, I was there and have been there throughout M's journey. I see very little, if any, factual mistakes. In other words, it's all true.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:30:54 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: bjorn Subject: OK Bjorn, you win Message:

You yourself stated that when you were a teenager, you had sexual feelings for a five year old girl. It is my understanding that such pedophilic impulses do not go away with age and maturity. You are wierd, dude. You call us 'believers' as if we were the cult members, not you with your 'special belief.' Oh it's special, all right. Fucking sick if you ask me. So tell us again about the 'mentality of ex-premies.' PS I just got off the phone with my best ex buddy and she has advised me to stop 'conversing' with you for YOUR BENEFIT. Now tell me again about ex-premie mentalities.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:49:33 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Bjorn Subject: Yeah, Bjorn Message:

I was the person to whom geRrY was speaking. And the reason I told him not to talk to you anymore is this: You say you were sexually abused as a child. Because I have many death row clients who were also sexually abused, I have learned a great deal about this issue. Your defense of Maharaji is just like someone who identifies with their abuser. Have you ever considered that your loyalty to the cult leader has happened because he is just like the person who abused you as a child? Have you ever considered that you make excuses for Maharaji's abusive behaviour because you are allowing yourself to recreate what happened to you as a child? Abuse victims often seek to justify the behavior of their abusers because they are struggling to understand someone would abuse them. Think about whether your on-going defense of Maharaji to people who are totally unsympathetic to your comments is connected to your history as a victim of sexual abuse. Bring that to your therapist the next time you go. I did tell Gerry to leave you alone because your unending defense of M has started to strike me as pathetic and based in your history of abuse. I could be completely off base about this, but that's my impression today. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 22:26:34 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Bjorn Subject: To Bjorn, friendly advice Message:

Hey Bjorn I am actually sorry to hear you are in need of therapy - all differences aside you have to understand that people here DO care about the well-being of others, despite your impression to the contrary. This is often masked or over-ridden by the more spirited arguers here (yes, I include myself there) when faced with premies who insist on trying to force the party line when it is painfully clear they haven't once stood back and looked clearly at the issues or the situation they are in. So the effect often is, and appears to have been in your case, that we come across as uncaring and insensitive to your particular difficulties. Well all I can say Bjorn, is that if you genuinely are going through some kind of personal strife right now, that you stay well away from the forum, at least for a couple of months, then see how you feel. I'm not just saying this to 'get rid of you', I am saying that from my own experience of having had counselling, it really does not help to continue to participate (no pun intended) in these arguments. I would endorse Marianne's suggestion also, that you disclose your entire involvement with the cult to your therapist, so that he or she may guide you through this. Lastly, you must accept that if you refuse this advice, and carry on your pathetic, empty defences of maharaji, under whatever pseudonym (you are SOOO obvious, you may as well stick to 'Bjorn'), then you have only yourself to blame for being emotionally upset as a result. Who was it once said 'you stick your foot in the crocodile's mouth and it's gonna hurt.....'? Take care Rob

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 15:55:28 (GMT) From: Kjarne Email: None To: Rob Subject: To ROB Message:

Well, Bjorn is here now and I am not HIM. I am Kjarne, a different person, so I hope you don,t see ghosts in daylight again. Regards Kjarne

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 16:20:35 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Kjarne Subject: To KJARNE Message:

I guess I saw the Seven Faeces of Dr Lao too many times. Well OK if you say you're somebody else, fine, even if you co-exist in the same head as Bjorn!!! (Just kidding.) So how about sharing a bit more about yourself, like Bjorn did? That works wonders here for the way people will accept you. It occurred to me that perhaps one of the reasons premies don't talk much beyond the boundaries of gumji-speak is because they are afraid of giving too much away. Wouldn't want to risk being 'identified' by lurking honchos, perhaps? Unfortunately that has the effect of making you come across as slightly robotic. Try talking like you would to your mates in the pub, or the people you work with. You know, give an impression of what Kjarne the person WITHOUT knowledge is like. A kinder, gentler Rob.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 00:34:19 (GMT) From: Bjørn the observant Email: None To: Rob Subject: To friendly advices Message:

I started posting here about 9 months ago. I suppose it was a distraction, as I was in a situation where I just had lost a fortune. And I had to wait for things to work out. Surfing the internet I found ex-premies wrote about a person I cared about and admired. A person I regard as a friend. I started to post and were surprised about the hostility. In some post I read about the Jagdeo case. This did upset me. As I then started to remember things from my youth this conserned me a lot. I tried to find the thruth about it and about Maharajis role. I also wrote a post which was not very wise. In this post I tried to make a point that the tendancy for pedophile desires is something probably a certain percentage of the population have. So what I wrote was that at the age of 14 (actually 13) I had for a couple of days the experience of falling in love with a little girl. I stated that I was grateful that such feelings never ocurred later in my life. I aslo wrote that I had been a victim myself of abuse myself. The result of this was acccusations of being a pedophile. I dont know if you can imagine the feelings of not only being a victim of sexual abuse, but to be accused of being a criminal abuser. And not to mention that nobody (like in this tread) seemed to believe what you say. To me it made me really depressed. In my country there was recently a program about pedophile. It was stated, as also I have tried to tell several times, that the worst thing for a victim often might be to bring back the memories of what happened to them. Eager lawyers were critisised because they pushed the cases, and there is a fact that in many cases there are a close realtionship between the abuser and the victim. A trial often brings to light for the victim his / her sufferings and the result is often that the closeness turns to lonliness and hate. According to what was told this situations even created suicidal attempts. So my point was the care of the victim is more important than the punishment of the pedophile. In my opinion the peodophily is a tendency like a decease and the best thing for such persons is medical treatment. I also belive that the 'crucify the pedophiles' attitude , like it recently happened in England, is likely to be 'run' by persons who have pedophile tendencies, who try to hide this , or never will admit this .(like the homosexual father in the film 'American beauty). Anyway, I think my reason for posting here, has been a stupid struggle to come over the depression I felt as all the memories that came into my being. I suppose I can let it go now and I am looking forward to what will happen to me. Re advices I will do according to what I feel is right for me, but I will not engage myself in any discussion with ex-premies. By the way, I have friends that are former premies, so it is hard for me to understand the mentality of the ex-premies. In the satelite feed from England a few days ago, someone told me Maharaji had said something about that we human beings are 'feeling machines' and what situation we bring our self into, will generate the feelings we will end up with. Sound like a sound advice to me. ( A bit similar to Robs saying) I am not trying to convince you about what to do in your life, nor to stop your efforts to post about Maharaji. That is entirely up to you, but it seems to me, there are some fanatical people here, and all together you sound like a propaganda machine. Therefore in my opinion there is a danger to have ones own thoughts uniformed into a certain pattern of thinking. Anyway, I wish you a good life. And I hope 'my' case will rest.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 20:08:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn the observant Subject: You continue to lie Message:

You never mentioned being a victim of sexual abuse when you were trying to rationalize and justify Jagdeo's appalling and criminal behaviour. You only did so much, much later in the conversation, days after you said you had sexual feelings for a five year old girl. You're such a fucking liar: also I have tried to tell several times, that the worst thing for a victim often might be to bring back the memories of what happened to them. Eager lawyers were critisised because they pushed the cases, and there is a fact that in many cases there are a close realtionship between the abuser and the victim. A trial often brings to light for the victim his / her sufferings and the result is often that the closeness turns to lonliness and hate. According to what was told this situations even created suicidal attempts. So my point was the care of the victim is more important than the punishment of the pedophile. You fucking liar!!! You kept digging and digging, under different names to find out what EXACTLY happened to the victims of Jagdeo. BLOW BY BLOW. It was disgraceful and extremely upsetting to several people here. YOUR WHOLE THING WAS TO PROTECT MAHARAJI. YOU HAD NO INTEREST OTHER THAN PRURIENT INTEREST, IN THE VICTIMS. I also belive that the 'crucify the pedophiles' attitude , like it recently happened in England, is likely to be 'run' by persons who have pedophile tendencies, who try to hide this , or never will admit this .(like the homosexual father in the film 'American beauty). This is utter nonsense. Not even clever. And very similiar to the 'blame the victim' mentality. In the satelite feed from England a few days ago, someone told me Maharaji had said something about that we human beings are 'feeling machines' and what situation we bring our self into, will generate the feelings we will end up with. Sound like a sound advice to me. ( A bit similar to Robs saying) No it doesn't sound anything similiar to what Rob is saying. It's a stupid, meaningless thing to say. Like most of goober's prattle. I am not trying to convince you about what to do in your life, nor to stop your efforts to post about Maharaji. That is entirely up to you, but it seems to me, there are some fanatical people here, and all together you sound like a propaganda machine. Therefore in my opinion there is a danger to have ones own thoughts uniformed into a certain pattern of thinking.   Fuck you with your 'fanatical people here' bullshit. You assholes are the fanatics. There are no fans of goober here, pal. And this bullshit about uniform pattern of thinking describes premies MUCH, MUCH more than it describes ANYONE here. Anyway, I wish you a good life. And I hope 'my' case will rest. Yeah, well fuck you again. You're starting to sound like that other phony fanatic, shp.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 19:04:17 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Parting shot Message:

Your 'point' about a certain percentage of people having pedophilic urges was a blatant attempt in justifying Jagdeo's behavior. A sick rationalization. This really angered me. Then you went on to say that you, too, had the same urges when you were FIFTEEN. Not thirteen or fourteen. You kept lowering the age of this supposed one time incident until you felt it could somehow be justified because of youth or whatever. I've never heard of anyone having these weird feelings and 'growing' out of them. The more likely scenario is that they escalate and their behaviour becomes increasingly more abberant and criminal. What I am more willing to believe is that you lied and made up the whole thing, and that you did this to make Jagdeo's appalling behaviour seem 'normal.' As if this behaviour was something people go through and was just a natural part of growing up for some. The great lengths which you and other premies go to in order to justify Rawat's lies is too much to take sometimes. To me you became a symbol of the worst of rawat's fanatic followers. I hope you are really sincere about getting therapy. At this point, I have no reason to believe or trust anything you say. It could be all lies: lies about your financial troubles, lies about your childhood sexual abuse, lies about therapy, lies about your identity here on the forum, lies, lies, lies. Just like your make believe 'friend' rawat, the biggest liar of all. I'm having a really difficult time generating any sympathy for you. Go away and stay away.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 23:48:39 (GMT) From: A question to gerry Email: None To: gerry Subject: Why do you really lie, gerrry? Message:

You wrote: 'Then you went on to say that you, too, had the same urges when you were FIFTEEN. Not thirteen or fourteen. You kept lowering the age of this supposed one time incident until you felt it could somehow be justified because of youth or whatever.' Here is what Bjørn alias Bim wrote: Date: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 05:43:29 (EST) From: Bim Doubtfire Email: bim_doubtfire@hotmail.com To: Cynthia G. Subject: Re: Pedophiles Message: Dear Cythia Who are you? What is so important with that, I dont understand. I am a human being. The peak of my career the last 25 within EV / DLM was to operate the VCR at local programs. I dont know if I can call myself a premie. but I admit I aspire to. OK? I did not write I feel sorry for Jagdeo. May be I do. I wrote I felt sad. When I was 14 years old, I fell in love with a 5 year old girl. I did not do anything with her, but I had sexual feelings. Such feelings never occurred later in my life. When I read about pedophilic persons, I feel sad, but also grateful that such desires never developed within me. I think I am very careful about jugding other people. That is based upon some very personal experiences were I was the victim. What concerns Maharaji, I was lucky enough (or unlucky) not to go into the lord of the unverse thing. I did not understand it. In my life, I have accepted that it is a part of being a human to make mistakes. Best regards Bim

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:55:16 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Bjorn Subject: You're hurting yourself here, my friend Message:

Bjorn, I don't remember reading that post of yours, perhaps it was during a time I was not reading the forum, I don't know. Anyway, after reading that, I really do think you ought to keep that aspect of yourself out of the public view - surely you can see how it is only going to get turned against you? Have you talked to other premies about this? I'm curious to know if their reaction was any more sympathetic to what you received here. I think the actual age this occurred is fairly immaterial, falling in love with a child that age is inappropriate at ANY age (unless you're also 5, I guess). I sense that you view paedophilia as an illness? When I put aside my own disgust and anger at the manifestation of this deviation, I am able to agree - it is a mental illness and I believe the law also recognizes this fact and attempts to impose suitable treatment on offenders wherever possible ()please correct me if I'm wrong, Marianne or Jim). Do you not then think it was doubly wrong of maharaji and his staff to ignore and suppress the Jagdeo allegations? By doing so they deprived the child victims justice and healing, but also denied Jagdeo the psychiatric help he so obviously needs? If you'd like to talk about this offline, you may ask the FA for my email address if you like.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 00:32:05 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bim bjorn or whoever the Subject: You said 15 in an earlier post, stupes. Message:

That's all you have to say? Good. Now piss off.

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Date: Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 01:05:38 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bim Doubtfire Subject: OK I made a mistake, you did say 14 originally. Message:

You brought this whole fucking thing on yourself though. I apologize for my mistake and any extra pain it my have caused you. I stand by everything else I said in my last couple of posts to you.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:24:15 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Bjørn the observant Subject: Brave and Honest Words. I wish you only...... Message:

healing and peace of mind. Therapy can be an empowering and enriching experience. You are on the right course. You are taking control of YOUR LIFE. This can only be good for you. Follow through.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 06:37:09 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Bjørn the observant Subject: Now you are talking like a human being Message:

Do you see the difference? I do, it is like night and day. Compare what you have written here, say, with the robotic diatribe of Mike 'The Mushroom' Fronke, or the madcap ramblings of Deputy Dog and shp. Or even some of your own attempts to explain, justify or otherwise excuse maharaji. We arrived here in much the same way; I stumbled in and fell back aghast at all the horrendous things being said about MY blessed maharaji. I didn't have monetary problems or too much time on my hands, but I did have suppressed doubts and a great deal of fear. Like you, I hammered my way through many, many heated arguments, the whole gamut of premie rhetoric and reiterated guru-wisdom. But beneath it all, there was a recognition that I was approaching a horrific, life-altering realization. If you have ever read Lord of the Rings, it would be like Gandalf sensing the approaching Balrog. The winged beast I feared was the unwelcome truth that I had allowed myself to be duped for 25 years. I should qualify that really by saying that I, like ALL premies (if they are honest with themselves) had suppressed an uneasy feeling about this for at least 15 of those years. And, like most premies, had never, ever dared express it to anyone, not even myself. Somewhere along the way, I cracked. It's no secret. I fell into the fire with the Balrog and, like Gandalf, emerged severely drained emotionally but victorious. I had looked my Lord in the face and seen him for the fraud he really is. Now that takes courage, Bjorn, and sadly few of the many doubting premies have found the strength in themselves to face that battle. Among those who have are those you would call 'fanatical' and 'propogandist'. If ever you take that journey into the pit - the pit of your own fear of divine retribution - and emerge with your eyes and your mind opened, you will realize how much of an insult those words are. But you are not yet ready, so I won't berate you for your attitude. For what its worth, I do feel you were harshly treated here over your 'inappropriate' disclosure. I've never had any similar feelings, nor was I ever abused as a child. Quite the contrary, my parents were both extremely loving and supportive. However, I can accept that one can have short-lived feelings of that nature, especially at that age, without any long-term sexual deviation being indicated. But really that ought to be kept between yourself and your therapist, and I can see no benefit to you from discussing it further here, even if you are only seeking to augment your denials. It sounds to me very much like you need a break from all of this. From the forum, and even from listening to maharaji and other premies. Too many conflicting influences, too many philosophies competing for your attention. Give yourself a break, go do normal, mundane, fun stuff for a few months. Remember - the *real* Creator, or God, or whatever, will still be there for you even if you do tell maharaji to go fuck himself. And if it turns out that he IS *The One*, hey, he'll forgive you. Besides, it's His own fault for being so fucking enigmatic, right?! Bjorn, you take care, and find the courage to explore those doubts of yours. Hey, I still practice the techniques when I want to, as do a lot of people here. I'm just over the guru, that's all. Rob.

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 03:37:34 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: cq Subject: Thanks cq - see I can be nice when I try!!! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 18:18:52 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Rob Subject: I really enjoyed reading that, Rob. Thanks. (nt) Message:

encore!

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 19:09:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Rob Subject: There's more to it than that, ain't there Rob? Message:

Y'see, it's all too easy to pick holes in any premie's 'reasons' (not concepts, of course) for sticking with the Maha. And Bjorn has made it all the easier by opening up about an urge that he felt in his adolescence that was decidedly dodgy. Was he brave? Was he foolish? A bit of both? Perhaps he felt that by 'baring his soul' he would attract responses that were as unguarded as his. Who knows? And I guess Bjorn is unlikely to open up on that subject again (though he'd probably benefit from finding someone to talk to about it). Anyway, my point is this: Premies are not the enemy. Premies are people who have fallen deeper into the 'lila' (for want of a better word) of worshipping/adulating/respecting/getting off on the charismatic personality of a character who profits from their attention. They tell themselves they still get something out of the relationship with their 'Master' ... good dogs like they are (i.e. they enjoy breathing/meditating) and to sum it up, the BIG difference between 'them and us', is that they are still enamoured of the teachings of a bloke WE once thought to be God incarnate. That we share with them (though the new ones might quibble about it, now that his teachings have become so anodyne and bland). But we've been where they are. The devotion. The mindlessness. The dependence. And for you, Rob, to treat these premies apoligists as if you could have been one of them ... well. That's the big difference between your posts and those of us exes who prefer a more confrontative yet denying approach to the whole issue. . . . For what it's worth, I'd say that the more premies feel under attack, the stronger their faith in their 'Master' will be. Absurd?

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:34:45 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Bjørn the observant Subject: You regard M as a friend? Message:

Okay. Whatever. Observant/Bjorn whomever, this forum is not at all a place for those who respect and respond to M. In fact, the forum, is downright unhealthy for those of us who have identity issues. I would in all consciousness, as a medical person, advise you to leave this place. I trust, in your work with your therapist, there would be no problem in you disclosing your beliefs and the fact that you follow M to him/her. This is such a big part of your life how could you not tell 'all'? I also think this web site, as well as others, would be a good place for your therapist to visit in order to get an understanding of what might per-chance be some of the things that you could work out. Frankly, I have found this site and others very beneficial. Propangada and a certain pattern of thinking? I have only found truth here. And as for a certain way of thinking? Take a good look at this statement. How exactly does M say the experience should be? I have found the opinions here very diverse. As for M's talks, they are very repitious. 'Ones own thoughts uniformed into a certain pattern of thinking.'

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 01:00:51 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: BJorne Subject: Is this another I cann't see posts? Message:

Whatever it is, I agree with Rob. This place is not for people that are looking for peer support. You need to be a blockhead to be here. It is cyberspace and any reply you recive is measured accourding to your post. I do suggest that you do not come to this forum if you are under treatement, especially if the cause is still fresh in your mind. I hope you do take advice. If you continue what you are doing then there is only one person to blame, I wish you well, Salam I was there.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 20:28:25 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: The observant Subject: Back to Bjorn Message:

Bjorn, I didn't see the Observant post where you signed your name. I'm sorry if I have offended you. Actually, I think Gerry and some others are much too hard on you. I am a soft-hearted person and I have a strong suspicion that if you and I ever had the change to communicate face to face, I would be very sympathetic toward you, not only because of your painful past, which deserves respect, as you say; but also because I have a sympathy toward premies, having been one for over twenty years. I know that on this forum, I oftentimes express myself to premies with undisguised contempt and sarcasm, but only when I feel that the target of my sarcasm deserves it. Most of the premies who post here are fringe premies who are expressing nothing but contemptible nonsense, in my opinion. However, when a premie is decent and honest, such as Susan was about 6 months ago, I find that I am very understanding of their feelings. I consider myself a lover of truth. I do not accept lies, accusations and libelous statements. I do not believe that you are a paedophile. I think you are basically an honest person who deserves respect. I sincerely hope that you gain help from therapy. The reason I say that it is unfair for you to post under different names is simply because we exes end up unknowingly repeating ourselves to the same person and there is no reason to keep on rehashing these issues over and over and over again and using the same arguments with someone who we already know has their mind made up. I'm sorry but I do think it is unhealthy for you to follow Mr. Rawat as if he were the source of your own soul's experience. I was sincere when I suggested that you look into that part of your life when you are in therapy. Again, I apologize for having offended you. So...how do you say 'peace' in Norwegian?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: The observant Subject: O you're an idiot and retarded socially to boot... Message:

So tell us asshole, just what exactly does this dubious story 'tell' about the mentality of ashram premies?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:01:16 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: gerry Subject: You do realize this is Bjorn you're talking to? nt Message:

say no more

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:04:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Monmot Subject: No I didn't but thanks for telling me. Message:

You mean Bjorn the Norwegian who has sexually feelings for five year old girls? Yuck, I shall truly 'say no more' to this creep.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 17:50:11 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: The observant Subject: What 'mentality?' Message:

What sort of 'mentality of people in ashrams' are you talking about?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:18:18 (GMT) From: The observant Email: None To: Joe Subject: What 'mentality?' Message:

The mentality of being idealistic, naive, and to have a religous attitude of unselfish thinking.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: The observant Subject: So Bjorn, spy any choice kiddies lately? Message:

And this 'mentality' thing: does it apply to every premie and did you take a poll or are you just blowing smoke out your ass again? Why aren't you in prison? Does the local law enforcement know about your 'proclivities?'

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 18:22:19 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: The observant Subject: What 'mentality?' Message:

Yes, that was a prevalent mentality in the ashram, because the ashram was set up as a renunciate institution. You sort of had to be into that to some degree, or at least aspire towards it because of Maharaji's directions, or else you wouldn't be there. And wouldn't you think that people with that 'mentality' were particularly vulnerable to a megalomaniac like Maharaji?

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 04:08:48 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Joe Subject: I missed something Observant. Message:

Are you really in prison?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 16:56:24 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: The observant Subject: Not the usual case... Message:

I don't know about that particular situation, but I can say that in the USA, when the ashrams closed, the majority of them were in debt, and the ashram residents were required to pay off the debt on their own. Maharaji and Elan Vital offered no assistance whatsoever in paying off the debt, despite the fact that the ashram residents turned over every cent of their income the entire time they were in the ashram. And much of that money went directly to Maharaji, and to Elan Vital. In addition, the ashrams supported many Elan Vital personnel, like community coordinators and initiators, as well as Elan Vital officials. It was disgraceful that Maharaji, with all his immense wealth, was unwilling to contribute a dime to help reduce the debt of people who had dedicated their lives to him, especially since he just decided one day on a whim to close the ashrams the throw the ashram residents into the streets. This, after ranting for years about how the ashram was a life-long committment and how one should never leave. But, of course, Maharaji is a hypocritical liar on a lot of things, not just this. I know for a fact that the Montreal ashram closed and a premie I spoke with got stuck with $20,000 in debt. It took her years after leaving the ashram to pay it off. G, reported that the got stuck with thousands of dollars in debt when his ashram closed. I'm sure G would be happy to fill in the details. Most of the ashrams were either in debt, or just barely out of debt, because of the cost of going to programs, the requirements to support Maharaji personally and Elan Vital as well, and the cost of supporting Elan Vital personnel who didn't work. I was one of those people for awhile, so I know. Fortunately for me, I left the cult a few months before the ashrams were closed. So, although I left with nothing but my clothes, at least I didn't have a debt.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:55:20 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thanks for the info and specifics Message:

Yes, very specifically it was stated that deciding to live in the ashram was 'for your whole life.' Funny, that policy changed in just over a decade. Not funny at all that our Lord 'changed his mind.' Yes, I think, that word mind especially applies to M.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:13:27 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: The observant Subject: That's interesting Message:

Do you know what country? Who's name was on the deed/title? Was the apartment bought with someone's trust fund money? That's a different twist. There was actually money left over! 40,000 dollars each for how many ashram residents? Now that is quite a tidy sum. The apartment must of been just about in the free and clear, ie no mortgage and also in some prime location. Do you know any more details?

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 10:37:23 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Tonette Subject: That's interesting Message:

Say 10 people. that is 400,000 dollers 18 years ago. Big money indeed. I am surprised gm did not ask for that money.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:41:25 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Salam Subject: Smells like a lie to me Message:

Let's go see if Pinnichio's nose grew lately: http://www.oz.net/~drek/dance_dirty.html

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 14:46:00 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Yves Subject: If you know the observant Message:

you would not say that. He is a straight jacket ex-accountant look a like that does not smile because it hurts his face to do so. No I think it is true.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 09:32:41 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Tonette Subject: An Experiment that failed Message:

What is more than evil? What would Hitler say about killing 6 million jews. An experiment on human being that failed. fuckin piss artist crapp filled fat ugly mother of a guru.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 13:43:15 (GMT) From: Gordon Showcase Email: None To: Salam Subject: An Experiment that failed Message:

We all know why it failed. Because the premies were failures. Maharaji tried to get them off drugs and rehabilitate them into the community but they abused his help and squandered his money on going to the cinema and all night tofu parties. Many of the ashrams had become dens of iniquity with pornographic magazines such as 'National Geographic' being blatantly left lying around the satsang room. I saw SS&M crazed ashram secretaries turning into little Hitlers and latter day Al Capones. I myself saw one ashram van with an out of date tax disk. God knows how many other crimes went untold.

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 03:37:12 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Your're full of shit Message:

Either this is a joke, right, or you are also stupid to boot.

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Date: Fri, Sep 29, 2000 at 21:19:59 (GMT) From: Elan Vital Email: None To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Ashrams: A Successful Drug Prevention Program Message:

Dear Mr. Showcase: Your recent post came to our attention amid all the unsubstantiated, scathing and scurrilous attacks against us and Maharaji on the Internet, mostly hurled by anonymous malcontents who have nothing better to do with their lives besides hurting decent, charitable people like us, who are just helping Maharaji educate people about the peace and love inside of them. We were terribly hurt, until we started feeling grateful again, and then, in no time, we were grateful for having gratitude, and then it's just so beautiful. Plus, we have the gift of participation. Gifts are just all over the place, and that's a gift too. We are just gifted by gifts. Regarding the ashrams, which very few people chose to be in you know, and as we state clearly on our website, the ashrams were elimintated shortly after Maharaji got out from under the influence of his mother, who was an Indian national who was also a Hindu, and we all know what that is probably like; she was a raving, controlling, bitch with all kinds of Hindu concepts and ideas that just got in the way over here in America, and it was just so courageous for Maharaji, after having sex with Marolyn at age 16, right under his Mother's nose, practically, to stand up to her and tell her to get lost. He was just so focused on the purpose of his life, which is to talk simply about knowledge, while simultaneously, and with great synchronization, getting a pilot's license and also writing poetry while wearing several collectible watches on both arms. Anyway, as we also say on our website, the purpose of the ashrams was to save many people from DRUG CULTURE. Those ashram residents should be just so grateful they they didn't die of drug overdoses, and every one of them would have, were it not for the supreme caring of Maharaji to provide 'shelter' for them. This is the reason there are not quite as many premies today as there were in 1974, because the premies who weren't in the ashram all died from DRUG CULTURE, or they are currently in mental institutions. Not everyone is willing to accept the gift after akk, and that's somewhat sad, although it was their choice. Now, as is common knowledge, the DRUG CULTURE was entirely eliminated in 1983, so then it was safe to close those shelters and Maharaji, out of his kindness and concern, did just that, because he realized they weren't needed and because they were a big, Hindu concept. It only took about 12 years after Maharaji arrived in the West and was frightened by a naked woman on a bed, for him to realize this. It was gift, after all, both having the ashrams, and closing them. We have also noticed that a number of those 'ex-premies' who say they lived in the ashrams were the very ones who caused all the problems. They just didn't want the ashrams to close because they were having such a good time being saved from DRUG CULTURE and doing things like not having sex and having rotten teeth. You can kind of understand someone not wanting to let go of that, but, of course, some people just were not willing to accept that Maharaji was getting rid of Hindu concepts and that the ashrams were just not needed anymore, being that all the drugs were gone in 1983, and all. So, that's why these people are so upset. They want the ashrams back, and Maharaji has been unable to oblige them. So, instead of just accepting the gifts Maharaji is currently giving, they want the old, Hindu gifts back, and they are just rigid, and unwilling to change. It's really kind of sad and we feel sorry for them, that is, when they aren't saying mean and false things about us and Maharaji. We at Elan Vital have a strict and highly ethical policy that everyone who now criticizes Maharaji is just stuck in their concepts, and are just disgruntled ashram wannabees. We also have a policy that these people should get lives. We hope this clarifies things for you. If you would like to reach our PR person, Booth Dyess or one of his numerous female assitants, by whom he has fathered no children we are aware of, please contact us at ElanVital@wearenotacult/wereallyaren't.org. Sincerely, Elan Vital ABSOLUTELY NOT A CULT SINCE 1971

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Date: Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 09:58:09 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Booth Dyess!!! Message:

Wow! Booth Dyess! He was one of the fanatics from when I lived in Houston!!! He has been involved since BEFORE Guru Puja Montrose (where I got indoctrinated). I cannot believe that he is still involved. Amazing! That is heading towards almost 30 years for him! Pathetic. Sad really, like it is for all those poor bastards still wasting their lives. Insane! It gives me the fucking creeps! I wonder who else that I used to know is still involved? How would I find out? Is there an active premie register? Too wierd. And just what the hell does Elan Vital mean and who came up with such a stupid name?

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Date: Tues, Oct 03, 2000 at 17:16:51 (GMT) From: Janet of Venice Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Booth Dyess!!! Message:

the name rings familiar. Did I know you in Houston?? it was Houston where my father tricked me into going into psychiatric'observation'(that turned into 9 months of locked care). arrived on Texas soil end of august 1981, got driven to houston hospital(methodist, on Fannin ST--across the park from the ashram, tho i didnt know that then) oct 6th of 81 and locked in. premies came to visit me there once. spent next six months out by sharpestown mall at a place called West Oaks, still locked in. got out in april of 82 and went to live on Bissonnett street. discovered a premie optometrist named don, living across the street while i was in a halfway house. i remember three ashrams in houston at that time--one across the park from methodist medical center, one in a duplex where you went up some blond hardwood stairs to the upper floor, and another in a tiny, cozy house with a carriage house in back. i remember there being a community pool across the street from it, behind a chainlink fence, where a lotta little black kids went swimming. i remember Eve was getting foot surgery and going to travel agent school. i remember a jewish guy with a guitar, sang at satsang, who was funny in a dour sort of way. name began with a J, very biblical. joshua, jason, jeramiah, jonah... like that. Booth Dyess fits in somewhere, in all that. was any of this during your time in Houston? Did we meet then? would have been May to July of 82. I went on an odyssey escaping the mental system by pickup truck when my son's premie father came to Houston in July to visit. he drove me away from there and took me all the way bAck to Fort Lauderdale with him . I went to Guru Puja, Miami 82.Spent august looking at apartments for myself in lauderdale, decided agains it.Took a plane to los angeles, where my ister took me to meet Hilly Zeitlin. he was the first ex premie i ever met. she hoped it would deprogram me. it didnt. it gave me the creeps. hilly was nice, but i realized my family was bent on reforming me. left los angeles in early november on a bus to Denver. stayed in the basement of a premie family i knew. had to jump on another bus back to houston after thanksgiving, when my family wouldnt mail me my disability checks. was appalled to discover the houston ashrams had disappeared since i was there last. could only find don the optometrist, right across the street from my old psychiatrists offices. that put a fear into me! don took me to miami for MJ's birthday Dec 10th. I saw my son's father again in lauderdale. he put me on a bus back to Denver, where I landed in snow with sunbelt clothes, a hefty sack with my laundry in it, and a thousand dollars in back checks on me, I took the first apartment i could get. I stayed there ten years. vowed i wouldnt move on until i either recovered myself from my ordeal, or died there, whichever came first.if you were there then, talk to me. help me regain my memories. the mental hospital scarred me. the vanishing of the ashrams terrified me. the abandoment of my family and my community propelled me into suicidal beliefs for years following. Help me make sense of it all?

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