Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 22:23:04 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Joe Subject: In San Antonio Message:

Was there a guy there buy the name of Bob Neader? Got sent there because his little head would'nt listen to his big head. He's hit on me a couple of times, said I would have made a good premie.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 01:57:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Great discussion, guys -- great questions Message:

Yeah, the bleakest period in my life was that post '76 tiem in the cult. As you know, Joe, because I've mentioned it before, I think Maharaji did his major about-face at the Essen, Germany International Coordinators conference which, I think, was in the fall of '76. I remember Gary Ockendon, then Canadian Coordinator, coming back and doing a tour to spread the news -- the Lord was back! At the conference, Maharaji chastised the crowd, albeit in good humour, to bring it all back home. What was it all about anyway, if not devotion? What was Knowledge but a vehicle to strengthen and express our love for Him? And God did he punish us! Suddenly, we were all suspect reprobates. We'd dipped our toes back in the maya, left ashrams, flouted the ashram lifetsyle, letter AND spirit, found new voices of open, public, unabashed chit chat. It was as if the workshop era, the first 'Knowledge Lite' era, the softening cult demands (accompanied by matching reduced expecations. No one talked about 'realizing Knowledge' anymore. God realization was an endangered species of an idea.), which seemed to begin in the summer of '74 at Guru Puja in Amherst, in the States at least (Canada being a bit slower and more conservative) had all been a test. And all but a few real die-hards, the one or two ashramies who did NOT go to a disco once or twice, had flunked. Devotees? We called ourselves devotees? Ha! So, yeah, Maharaji sucked us back in with a fairly sweet entreaty to rekindle the innocent joy and enthusiasm of a few years prior. Those who'd been around since, say '73, wanted that. We wanted to all-consuming excitement we'd felt back when we literally believed that everyone was going to get Knowledge, that everyone was coming, sooner, rather than later, to His Holy Lotus Feet. Maharaji wanted it too, I think. But, as has been his pattern all along, he had no capacity whatsoever to take responsibilty for our apparent 'loss of direction' (on the cult's own terms, of course). So he scapegoated us -- well, our 'minds' to be more precise -- like a real motherfucker. Maharaji had caught us trying to steal our lives back. Thus, we were all convicted thieves and couldn't be trusted to be alone anymore. Satsang shifted from being a Hindu canned inspirational trip to a combination re-education camp and moment-by-moment mental alternative. Why spend a moment by yourself when you can park your body in front of a brother or sister (or mahatma or video, if you're lucky) who'll remind you a) that your mind is your deadly enemy; b) that you're hopeless to resist it; and c) that Maharaji was pulling you away from your mind moment-by-moment if you could only open up and let him? Maharaji seemed to disdain the petty lives we'd started to build in the year prior. To prove the point and test out mettle he 'showered us with so much grace' by holding that series of '19 Day programs', doing short one or two-day sessions in a about half a dozen American towns, forcing us to quit whatever jobs we had, go crazily into debt and basically thumb our noses at the world. Who were we? We were Guru Maharaj Ji's lovers and if you don't like it, world, you can just fuck off. That was the attitude. I started feeling so miserable. But the scariest thing of all was the question of my future. Here I was in the ashram. So what? Was I going to 'realize Knowledge' someday and cross over into that infinite bliss I still thought Maharaji dwelled in? I started to wonder as it seemed like I -- and everyone e;se as far as I could tell -- had, at best, plateaued. The batteries had been charged and drained so often by then that it didn't seem to matter how long you left them on the charger. We had long, long, tedious, brain-fucking marathon satsangs. Sometimes we ashramies would set aside the whole weekend to just sit in front of each other and sing His glory. Sometimes the community got in on it. All of this was fashioned on the Initiator Training Program model as we heard (horror?) stories of packs of would-be initiators stuck in a house in Malibu literally for months on end, doing nothing morning-to-night but you-know-what. So I wondered, is that what life has in store for me? I never did actually apply to be an initiator. Why? I started to feel some real resistance as in 'I want a life! Please, someone, anyone, get me out of here!' This didn't stop me from giving satsang though. How'd that all work? I guess you had to be there. Fuck, I don't know. We were confused. It was a cult, don't forget. And there, all along, was Maharaji squeezing his honey, smoking dope, enjoying that magnificent view from the top of Anacapa and .... LISTENING TO PETER FRAMPTON????? Ha hahaha ... I guess I won after all! Peter Frampton? Naw, just kidding. I wish it was that easy.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:30:52 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji had caught us trying to steal our lives Message:

back. God Jim, That sums it ups. Great post.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:37:38 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: FA Subject: FA - empty posts Message:

Joe -:- Reprise re Terry Yingling letter to Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 13:28:55 a0aji -:- The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers -:- Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 15:33:03

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:50:05 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: a0aji Subject: Glitch in the software? Message:

The above post got cut off mid-sentence, and the one above that is blank. Maybe they will show up at some point? Is this getting to be a serious problem?

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 23:35:09 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Joe Subject: Glitch in the software? Message:

Take II: >> So, Michael, if I hear what you are saying, Maharaji was directly involved in all of the ways things were done, and apparently was directly involved in deciding to d Joe << Looks like a problem on your end, Joe, since the signature appears below the cut-off sentence (it wouldn't be there if your post was simply cut-off short). Also, my post got fixed (presumably by the FA).

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 21:03:12 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Joe Subject: Glitch in the software? Message:

Well, it has been an ongoing problem for the week or so I've been visiting since my last appearance here. It is evident the FA fixes empty posts and makes them appear. Short posts, I don't know about.

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 19:33:03 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Joe Subject: The continuing deposition of Michael Dettmers Message:

Great post. I was an aspirant beginning summer, 1976; and Barbara was my Initiator in January, 1978. She was a very interesting woman. I'd heard about COLL through the premie culture; the name alone was enough to foster an interest. I got completely out of DLM and premie culture, some time in late '78 or early '79 I think; I saw Maharaj Ji wearing the Krishna crown and outfit several times, from Dec '76 to at least early '78. It was totally about that; I remember thinking I hope he doesn't stumble while on stage because 'With one hand I create the Universe and with the other I destroy it.' We sang Arti in absolutely the most sappy manner, especially in local (Hartford) nightly, 7:30 pm satsang. I remember in Orlando (1977 probably) that I was disappointed in how Arti came off -- I'm pretty sure it was Orlando. I remember wondering if there wasn't a different version of Arti; I was pretty obsessed with Arti, actually. I mean, people bothered to clarify butter, just to make the right sort of ghee for Arti! There was always charnamrit (sp?), usually flowers such as gardenias, at the altar (which is what it was called). And -- this always kills me now -- a perfectly good, empty chair set out, for Maharaj Ji, sometimes on a raised platform, like a throne! It was totally about Maharaj Ji, so that's where I question Blue Max' assertion that he could then take Maharaj Ji at his word (that it was about the techniques and 'the' knowledge). Satsang, Service, and Meditation -- if you were a total idiot, you would still have noticed this phrase repeated more than anything else. I'd say it was split 50/50 between this 'leg' and the outright devotional stuph. Lord of the Universe, Spread This Knowledge and Teach Me Devotion were sung constantly. Darshan dreams were a regular conversational staple; almost erotic in intensity at times. A handful of films were regularly exhibited (this was just before the first video tapes were circulated, which I also saw). There was the one of Maharaji's wedding to Durga Ji; and then a tearful satsang by Durga Ji, sitting on (or near) a throne with a lot of flowers, telling us about mother and wife and how she's our proxy (which again, seemed semi-erotic). It seemed like the more Lord-like he was presented, the better it was received -- I remember certain premies actually cried from the 'beauty' of experiencing the exhibition of this stuph together as a community. Vine of Love, Lord of the Universe, Power of Love, Satguru Has Come -- they were all exhibited in the satsang hall. Any resonable premie assumed that Bill Patterson (for instance) felt 'the same way we do' about Maharaj Ji's divinity, role in our lives, etc. I barely recognize Mr. Dettmers' name from that same period, if at all. I don't think his 'image and likeness' were used, the was Bill's was. There was often a parade of Initiators giving (what I called in my head) 'warm-up satsang' at festivals; Michael may have spoken once or twice, but I didn't register his identity. Then again, all that was reinforcement stuph; we had fans of, say, Charnanandji in our community, who would speak of him; so when Charnanandji stood on stage and spoke, I paid attention. Jagdeo I knew, but only by looks; his satsangs (kind of rare) were not memorable. OTOH I was kind of into the Shri Maharaj Ji thing (read lots of his old satsangs) and so Jagdeo was of interest as a side-effect of being in Shri Hans' court, as was Charnanandji. In reply to: Michael, I hope you aren't getting the feeling there is a deposition going on here. --- snip! ---

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Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 17:55:38 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: I would love to read Michael's answer too Message:

I was in the cult from 1975-1979, and I saw a lot of these changes too, and have always wondered what was behind them and what the truth was about why they occured. I look forward to reading your perspective on this time in the cult's history. I am especially intrigued by the move toward normalcy in 1976. Why did that happen? And then the 1977 rebound, any insight into the forces behind the move to a more intense devotional phase than ever before? I left the cult in the midst of that phase, 1979, the Mala dance in Philly was one of my 'drips'. But these cult changes had a huge impact on my life. I was nothing if not malleable. For example, my interpetation on 1976 was that now it was okay for me to 'like' school. I was 14 and decided that since we were now becoming normal I would enroll in honors classes and be a good student. I got really into school and excelled. I have told this story before but it is one of the turning points for me. The changes in 1977 back to heavy devotion also meant the end of being a good student for me. I had all these books from the courses I was taking and proudly brought them to Newt Gay who was the community coordinator. I was genuinely proud of my schoolwork and thought he would congratulate me. Instead, being the good devotee he was and reflecting the 1977 change, he told me my books were 'mindy' and really put me down for spending all this time with schoolwork instead of service. My response; I dropped the program. My Lord was of course more important than school. I am not blaming Newt, he was only being a good premie. But that is what happened. But I always wonder what might have been if the 1976 humanitarian leader period had not chaged to the heavy devotional period, and how my life might have been different. So any insights you have as to why these changes occured would be of great interest to me.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 17:57:34 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Susan Subject: I would love to read Michael's answer too Message:

Hi All, Susan, you were 14?? and the community coordinator leaned on you to focus more on goomraji? God, that's terrible. At least I was of a majority age and living on my own, (not in the ashram yet). Thanks for the posts. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:46:23 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: glad you were interested Message:

yep, that is what happened. I harbor no ill will toward Newt though. I think he was genuinely trying to 'help' me. This is what he thought a good premie should do, and he was guiding me toward being a better premie. I mean, school vs the Living Lord, where is the choice here? Newt actually somehow found the money to send me to Rome in 1977, on DLM's tab, so he must have liked me, it was just in the premie value system, he was trying to give me 'guidance' That was actually one of the reasons I had a lot of hope that Randy Prouty would tell the truth about the Jagdeo issue, premie or not. He seemed to really care about me. He used to help me with my homework, and DID encourage me to do well in school, even though he was such a hard core devotee. I think he saw it as investing in myself would help me 'serve' Rawat better later, but at least he thought I was worth educating. Randy came to my mom's house when I was 16 or so and talked her into letting me move into the ashram. He also I think got the approval directly from Rawat for me to move in when I was underage. I suppose too, that some of the premies there might have resented supporting a high school student in the ashram ( I had no job ). This is of course why I just cannot believe he 'forgot' about what I told him about Jagdeo, he knew me really well. I moved out of the ashram very soon after moving in. I missed my mom and the premies there scared me sometimes. They also were kind of nice to me too, I recall they had a very wonderful 16th or 17th birthday party for me at the ashram. I was like the mascot sort of. Weird memories.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:27:27 (GMT) From: Rani Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: 14 Message:

No matter what age we are, people have tended to 'lay trips' on each other -- especially when it comes to something as serious as 'God realization.' It is a sad byproduct of every belief and every religion as far as I can tell. Being older helps one to deal with it. For this reason I am glad that Maharaji changed the minimum age for receiving Knowledge to 18. In this way he helped take a lot of pressure off of a lot of kids who would have otherwise been pushed by their parents. I'm all for what Maharaji offers, but because of the tendency to lay trips on one another I cannot see any good coming of community groups and gatherings. It is an area too personal and too sensitive and a person really needs to be left alone in their own process. I love to watch Maharaji videos and I love to practice, and I am very grateful to Maharaji for his invaluable help. However I cannot stand much of anything the 'teams' of people have put together around Maharaji and his message. I really believe Maharaji is offering the greatest thing, and yet I also cannot stand all the 'trips' past and present. I would hate to see his work slowed down in this world, because it is something very healing for many people. At the same time, I would love to see his 'organizations' disappear! How dare they try to tell me how to act and what to say? Yet, 99.9% of what Maharaji has had to say in video events has been very helpful to me, as is the practice of his Knowledge.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 04:57:59 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Rani Subject: hey Rani,what part of the 99.99% do you like best? Message:

Rani-I am just curious, as to your statement that 99.99% of what m says in the videos helps you practice the meditation... Could you tell us just a few (maybe 3) things that m says in the videos that help you? Are those things that you could not find anywhere else? Do you intend to watch videos every week for the rest of your life, to get those wise tips from m? This is what he expects, you know.. Just curious

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:33:22 (GMT) From: jondon Email: None To: Rani Subject: 14 Message:

I met a kid at a knowledge interview, he was not allowed to receive knowledge because he was not quite 18. I told him that I was not allowed to received K either. He told me that his father worked for M and had already taught him about K and he had in fact been practicing it for some years, and that it was really 'no big deal'. He said his father had told him to go and ask for it at a K interview so that he could receive it from M. This way when he came to work for 'the operation' as he called it, it would be understood that he had received K from M and not from someone else at an early age. He was a nice young man, very good looking and extremely intelligent for a kid not quite 18. Already he was lying to his master and his disciples. He learned well, Like master like aspiring premies.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:57:53 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Rani Subject: My response to Rani Message:

Dear Rani, I highly suggest you read some of the information in the DLM/EV papers; the link is at the top of this page. The last time I saw a video of m was over a year ago in a live feed. In it he was very cranky about everyone not being 'grateful' for what they had received from him. He also said that he had fulfilled his promise to his Shri Maharaj Ji--to spread knowledge around the world, therefore he was satisfied that he had completed his 'agya' to HIS guru. He also mentioned entering phase II. I assume completing his agya was Phase I. He was pretty vague but he spoke about training programs and teams, etc. In addition, he spoke, swore (a later edited video) was in a vile mood which I had never, ever seen him exhibit in public. I have come to understand that goomraji's failures are his own. From afar and up close, his ego is so large that he cannot tolerate anything going wrong in his 'organization.' He blames other people for all of his failures, while exhibiting what I now see as a great facade of kindness, compassion, and wisdom. I use these words loosely, because he is far from kind, compassionate or wise. Things have slowed down for him because so many old timers have rejected him outright as a fraud. If you think you can brave it, take a look at the wealth of information available on this website. I hope you do--you may gain an understanding of where the exes here are coming from. The backlash from this and other websites (which were closed down by EV) is probably taking up a bit of his time. That's called DAMAGE CONTROL!! As far as minors are concerned, I have learned in my life that I am a responsible adult and must behave accordingly. Has goomraji done that? No. I might have been able to forgive him for his actions and theft of premies' lives while he was a minor, but he's been an adult for quite some time now, and it's time for him to fess up and be an adult. (I don't expect this, it's just what I believe he should do.) I wish you the best, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:36:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rani Subject: You know what that tells me about you? Message:

99.9% of what Maharaji has had to say in video events has been very helpful to me That can only mean that you're not that bright.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:09:12 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Rani Subject: Knowledge and the age of majority Message:

For this reason I am glad that Maharaji changed the minimum age for receiving Knowledge to 18. In this way he helped take a lot of pressure off of a lot of kids who would have otherwise been pushed by their parents. I strongly suspect that the only reason this change was made was because Maharaji and Elan Vital were being sued by the parents of underaged kids who were revealed knowledge and may have had some kind of emotional problems thereafter. I am personally aware of at least one such lawsuit in Florida in the late 7Os. Yet, 99.9% of what Maharaji has had to say in video events has been very helpful to me, as is the practice of his Knowledge. That's great that you are enjoying yourself. Were you around when Maharaji used to say, both in videos and live, that the purpose of your life was to devote it to him, and to surrender your life to him? Did you also find that helpful?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 18:52:20 (GMT) From: Rani Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Correction Message:

I must correct myself. To be honest, I would have to say 99%, not 99.9% of what Maharaji says on videos is very helpful to me. The other more important correction is this: When I said 'How dare they tell me how to act and what to say?' this was misleading. More accurately, they try to tell us how _not_ to act and what _not_ to say.' However, to me this is the same thing as being told how to act and what to say -- only coming from a more discreet (yet less honest) perspective. When I first learned of Maharaji many years ago, a quote on a flyer said I had to be sincere. I took him for his word on that and I am sincere. Why do I see so much lack of sincerity among those who surround Maharaji? I suspect it is much like with any other great leader. Some of the most insincere and self-serving collect around him for their own purposes. I know that a lot of people that post on and read this forum want to put so much blame on Maharaji for everything that goes wrong with all the people involved. But that would be like blaming President Clinton for the acts of all the politicians in the United States (I gag at the thought of all the travesties there!!). Yet Maharaji's message, when I hear him -- which is very often -- is so untainted when it comes to practical advice and inspiration on living in this world and being fulfilled. No matter what craziness is going on in Elan Vital or elsewhere, he continues to give me that lifeline to sanity. That, in itself, is absolutely phenomenal. And it's enough to prove to me that he is true, all the other s**t notwithstanding.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 04:24:00 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Rani Subject: Practical Advice? Message:

'Yet Maharaji's message, when I hear him -- which is very often -- is so untainted when it comes to practical advice and inspiration on living in this world and being fulfilled.' I must tell you, Rani, that sentence sounds so much like those who wave a Bible in one's face and say 'everything you need to know in life is right in here!' I always tell them, 'I doesn't tell you how to change a fuse!' Tell me, what would someone who has lived the life M has lived really know about living in the real world? I don't think he has even visited it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 23:30:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rani Subject: I LOVE premie 'reasoning' -- an oxymoron? Message:

I know that a lot of people that post on and read this forum want to put so much blame on Maharaji for everything that goes wrong with all the people involved. But that would be like blaming President Clinton for the acts of all the politicians in the United States (I gag at the thought of all the travesties there!!). Is this your first analogy? It kind of looks that way. Care to try again?

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 20:29:04 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Rani Subject: Rani, just how helpful is the Master's Wisdom? Message:

Dear Rani, You know, the funny thing is that I would have agreed with your statement about the value of maharaji's speeches a year ago, except I probably would have accepted 100% as a reasonable percentage. I've thought a lot about it in recent times, and actually I'm quite annoyed about it. Here's an experiment for you: Don't view a video, don't listen to a thing he says for a month. When you are making decisions, little and big, during this period, and you think 'what would Maharaji do', pull back and make the decision without reference to him or his wisdom. Then, go to a video event, sit at the back, watch the premies objectively, watch their responses to the video, and then, instead of trying to get what you want out of watching the video, try to analyse what he is saying and what sort of response it is eliciting from you. The results can be surprising, and I must say, somewhat distressing in the short term. Please, don't keep blaming the premies involved, the next thing you'll do is decide you have to help him instead, and, as someone else warned, madness that way lies. Rgds, Lesley, now, after 27 years of involvement in a religious cult, a much relieved ex.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:47:15 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Rani Subject: Correction Message:

Take a stroll through this website , when you've got the time , & then come back & tell us what you think of Him , rather than what you think of You in relation to Him. I appreciate that you might consider the 2 things to be the same , but they are not. Why are the people in Elan Vital so crazy ? They've got the same Knowledge as you , who isn't crazy. Would you go crazy youself , therefore , if you got more involved with M's work ? Don't you think about these things ? I never did either , I must admit , but then I never knew anything about him of any substance until I came here. Beware : if you're genuine you'll have your illusions shattered (a painful process) , & if not you'll get seriously fucked over by posting here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:33:36 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Rani Subject: very common defense mechanism of premies Message:

the blaming of all the problems of the organization on the people around Rawat. It is a bizarre way to think though. Isn't Rawat so supposedly wise and all knowing etc? How come he is such a perpetual victim of all these flunkies around him? Your way of seeing this is extremely common among premies, but it just isn't logical. Rawat is over 40 years old, he has tons of money, and I know of no one with a more loyal and compliant group of people just itching to help ( serve ) him. Why is it that he is so incapable of leading these people to do what he wants? Why? Because you have it ALL WRONG. They ARE doing what he wants. He wants them around to take the blame for everything that goes wrong in EV. Yet, he is more than willing to take the credit for anything that may happen to go well. What a great arrangement. It has worked well, the PAM blaming, as long as the cult has existed, and I am sure he has no intention of ever changing anything and accepting any responsibility for anything that has ever occured on his watch that was less than savory. 'Not a leaf moves without GMJs grace' but he is a perpetual victim of the flunkies around him. Very convenient arrangement.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:40:30 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Susan Subject: right on Susan Message:

I heard that argument over and over. In fact very few of the premies I knew liked each other much at all at the end of the 90's. And always there were the little sympathetic coments about poor M putting up with such a bunch of losers.

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Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 19:50:38 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: ps Subject: another typo Message:

no, not 'coments' losers was supposed to be loosers :)

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