Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:55:55 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Patrick Subject: nice post Message:

- well written and full of insights. Thank you, Patrick.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 00:27:53 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Patrick Subject: This is topical! Message:

Once again apost that clls for no reply but stands on its own. Great stuff. With regards to Hilary 'slagging off' (English expression) or privately putting others down - I am reminded of some work I did with an improvisational theatre troupe - called Playback Theatre - go se it near you if you hear of it. Anyway - we were performing for a group of parents who has Sudden Infant Death Babies - we were part of a program to support SIDs parents who were supporting others. In our warm-up process we started making terrible commenst about bead babies, murderous parents, dopey accidental killers etc. We laughed ourselves silly then got concerned that someone had heard up - we were warming up in a room about as big as a broom closet. Anyway we all then got the guilts and wondered how unfeeling we all were and felt quite down. Then, when performing, one of the participants in the conference told us (this is part of the process)about how the night before many of them had got quite drunk and started telling each other dead baby stories and other nasty things and they had all laughed themselves silly. We all felt much better and I now feel better to let my wicked nature prevail at times - in the company of close friends or confidential colleagues. It often frees me up to continue my work (with groups) in a different manner. A bit like ex-premies getting together and creaming premies - not so nice but Oh such fun. e.g That SHP....' or 'That Jim....' etc Cheers Peter

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:52:58 (GMT) From: Curious George Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Another Cracker! Message:

Dear Patrick, Thanks for the great post! Too bad M refused to let Charnanand marry eh? Regards, Curious George Another BEST OF I think.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 22:32:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Interesting indeed Message:

Patrick, I'ver always thought that 'jealousy' applies to matters of the heart (i.e. who's got who's affections) and that 'envy' covers everything else. But otherwise, I think you're right on with this. I have to admit, I, too, feel like I played my premie years in the worst of all ways. I was too 'uptight' to really fuck around and have a good time. I honestly believed that the orthodox premie approach (i.e. trusting Maharaji explicitly) was the ticket. And now everyone laughs at me! My old ashram mates say i didn't stay the course long enough and thus did nothing, know nothing, or worse. The premies who did their own thing laugh at me for taking all that heavy shit seriously. You know? Yes, I think you do. So Gurucharanand was getting laid as long ago as the '70s? That's important info beyond it's pure gossip value. Can you elaborate in any way whatsoever? Proof? Details even?

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 07:19:29 (GMT) From: frodo Email: None To: Jim Subject: Giving-up fun was a waste of time Message:

Jim I started out heavy. I thought I had to give up everything. I was so young at the time, I was almost a virgin. I thought I could not party anymore. So I did not. I was invited to go to Miami to help at deca. So I went. I found out real quick that giving up sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll was not manditory, in fact I don't think that it is the propose of knowlege and Maharaji at all. Live and learn. I saw Married premies enjoying life to the fullest, and they where enjoying the company of other women to the fullest also. And there I was thinking I had to be a Monk. Wine, woman, and song my man. I found out, you don't give-up the things you desire. Enjoy your desire's first. Wear out the pleasure. I had to get the desire's out of my system before I could experience any of the experience Maharaji was talking about.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:46:26 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: frodo Subject: 'desires' NOT 'desire's' Message:

Have you considered getting an education as a supplement to 'knowledge'? It would do you the world of good. Personal discrestion in the use of your gift of 'freewill' is also a highly recommended addition to meditation and knowledge and education of any form. Love ...

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 04:12:09 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: frodo Subject: and yes, that should be discretion... Message:

but you used 'desire's' twice, so I'll interpret it as more than just a typo. and btw, like Gandalf, please use the name 'frodo' with more respect, if at all ... Tolkien is turning over in his grave (and I would 'sleep' better as well ... not that you're concerned, it seems).

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:35:58 (GMT) From: National Enquirer Email: None To: everyone Subject: Sex at IHQ mid-70's Message:

News Flash! Sex was happening in the IHQ ashrams in Denver. The prevailing 'understanding' was what's good for the guru is good for the devotee. Many of the honchos were certainly X-rated enough to know about M&M before the wedding. When M&M were married in early '74, many IHQ ashramers 'came out' regarding their ongoing relationships. It was amazing how many 'holy rollers' were involved. Sources close to IHQ say it was observed that Mike Donner and Barbera Kolodney spent quality time in her room in the basement at 1410 High Street. Willy Svab had a lady friend. I can't remember all of the other specifics but these relationships were not kept hidden - more like don't ask / don't tell. The ashram this reporter was in - 1263 Josephine Street - was apparently filled with gay couples. Let's just say those of us 'brothers' who were straight stopped using the men's group shower. At least two sets of my 'house parents' were coupling on company time. The house father on Bannock Street (don't recall his name but he was the one who questioned M about being on a control trip) spent the house cash on pot. Even before the marriage, a former lover of Saint Mishler described their in-ashram liasons as early as '72. Even though there was still a strong renunciant contingent, and that's what got put out to the provinces, many of these relationships continued in one form or another throughout this time - early 1974 through 1976 when it all came unglued. Film at 11 unless Bush concedes the election.

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 01:48:16 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: National Enquirer Subject: Sex at IHQ mid-70's Message:

I lived in the ashram up at the end of race street (1232?) in 75-76, about 2 blocks from Cheeseman park. I had an affair with a woman for an extended period of time but we were discrete (I think). Near the end of that relationship(?) a premie who has her name on a bunch of legal documents was making passes at me, which as a good brother I rebuffed, or maybe I was shy, either way it was going on all over. We would walk over to the park after ss or evening meditaion and you always ran into other 'couples'. The amazing thing is both of those women are still active around M. Nothing like sneaking into the meditation room late at nite when everyone was in bed for a 'slowie'

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 02:04:04 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Sex at IHQ mid-70's Message:

I was at the other one (1560 Race) 75-76, and I used to make out in the meditation room at the top of the house which used to be MJ's bedroom. Of course, I married the person I was making out with!

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:43:58 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: National Enquirer Subject: Celibacy pre-Montrose Message:

Hey NE - I don't think they had a hard-and-fast rule about celibacy in the ashrams before the Guru Puja festival at Montrose (July 1972). So you might want to consider that as well.

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 01:51:57 (GMT) From: TED Farkel Email: None To: Katie Subject: Celibacy pre-Montrose/Hard and fast ?oh yeah... Message:

Dear Ms. Katie- If I had been around in those days, trying to be celibate, while serving our lord, I think it would have been HARD and FAST, and then back to service... Just an opinion... TED Farkel

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:03:50 (GMT) From: National Enquirer Email: None To: Katie Subject: Celibacy pre-Montrose Message:

Point taken. This reporter does remember skinny dipping at Guru Puja Montrose - our Summer of Love.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:07:15 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: National Enquirer Subject: Celibacy pre-Montrose Message:

Yes, I heard that Denver was a lot of fun until Maharaji showed up and ruined everything (seriously!). Actually, the summer of 1976 - before 'rededication' was pretty fun too.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:46:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: National Enquirer Subject: That's not how it was in Canada Message:

In Canada, we were good little cult members. Hardly anything happened, at least not in any of the ashrams I lived in.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:15:45 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's not how it was in Hartford Message:

If anything was going on in the ashram's I lived in I certainly never knew about it. Jim, I see what you meant about how I worded my post below...(snicker) Yikes! Yuck! Icky!! Charanand was altogether unattractive, in my eyes. Chard did however, give advice to a premie who is a close friend of his (to this day), with whom I was having a relationship in our pre-ashram days 1976-78. Hell, I'm sick of talking code, when I said I had no choice in the matter, I was talking about being tricked, betrayed, and coerced in a dreadful way into having an abortion. There, it's said. That feels better (sigh) Charanand Gee advised this premie that he should focus his life on surrendering to M, become celebate by joining the ashram, in essence abandon me when I was under the impression M didn't approve of abortions. The subsequent events leading to the abortion are too lengthy to post here. I'd like to post my story in Shattered Lives and Tragedies. I was coerced, through the cult's brainwashing, and intense pressure from this premie's powerful family. It was awful--and I am a pro-choice woman. Fuck Charanand and Fuck Maharaji, too. I'm okay, I've worked it all through....just hearing of the Chard's sexual exploits after giving such 'lofty' advice has me sincerely miffed. See ya, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:49:58 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: That's horrible, Cynthia Message:

I had experiences which could fall into the same category (they were caused by pressure on people to move into the ashram), but were not of that magnitude. And as it happens, some of the people who were most vocal in trying to convince people to break off relationships and move into the ashram were NOT celibate themselves. It seemed to be OK not to be celibate - just not OK to be in a committed relationship. I still feel bitter about this because these people made me feel really bad about myself for even wanting a relationship. I hope you DO write about this - would you consider amending or re-writing your journey's entry? Love to you - Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:59:30 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Katie Subject: In answer to your question, Katie Message:

yes I would like to do that. I'll talk to you in a couple of days. Today is my day! Thanks for your support, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 15:10:09 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: In answer to your question, Katie Message:

Cynthia, I think the stance of abortion in m’s cult is the most disgusting thing I have come across. I knew of a female premie that was pregnant and wanted to have an abortion, she did not know what to do, thinking that she maybe taking a life. She had to wait until she got a reply from fatty. That attitude makes me absolutely sick. It was not that the other party (i.e. the father) was not interested, rather it is the denial to the father and total disregard to what he felt. Being a premie is worst than being a slave. I am glad I shock that leach of my back. Salam

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:52:13 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Subject: So true, Message:

I knew of more than one heavy that coerced people into the ashram that was less than celibate.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:57:23 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan Subject: So true, Message:

The implication is that if you were REALLY devoted, or somehow 'higher' than the premie norm, you could handle a sexual relationship. However, the rest of the premies (including me) were seen as not being able to deal with this and remain devoted enough - just another extension of the X-rated thing! Susan, I was so stupid and naive back then that I don't even know if there was sexual activity among ashram premies in DC. I know some of them were really serious about their vows, some got married and left the ashram after M got married, but couldn't tell you about the rest. I hate thinking about this, even now. Love to you - hope you're not suffering during all the OT election talk :). Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 00:58:38 (GMT) From: Dv Email: None To: Katie Subject: So true, Message:

I was hit on in the McKinley St shram, but I was so 'pure' (and nervous) that instead I grabbed a guitar and we wrote Boy From Prem Nagar.

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 15:41:27 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Dv Subject: I remember that song Message:

Did it make it nationally, or was it local? It was (unintentionally, I'm sure) very funny. Re getting hit on - I know what you mean, especially about the 'pure' part - aaaagh! Love, Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:02:04 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Subject: more Message:

I have learned to stay out of the politics generally, since obviously I am a little different from the norm here. Still curious about the Yingling list of monmots :)

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 20:08:57 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan Subject: see below (nt) Message:

(nt)

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 19:43:21 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I am so sorry that happened Message:

I get the sick impression that the guru was against abortion until he realized it was more profitable to advise in favor of it. Seriously. He seemed to change his stance on it during those days of join the ashram or else. I seriously think he felt all the premie children were competition for the money that was rightfully his.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 18:58:30 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: in Miami it was both, from what I could tell Message:

Well, it was hard for me to tell, but I think there were many semi-secret trysts going on. But I also think there were a lot of Ashram premies that were 100% faithful to their vows, in fact, I would say most. Without a doubt though I saw the most likely people to be breaking vows and certainly not living as austerely were the PAMs. It makes more sense now that we know about X rating too. I think that premies always tended to copy the masters habits to a sickening degree. I heard that when it became known he was a smoker premies not only took up the habit to a large degree but also had to smake his brand. Do they also tend to indulge in courvoisier like the Ladies Man? Oh god that would make a GREAT parody. Oh Drek, any way to cut and paste the guru's face on Tim Meadows?

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 00:36:01 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Interesting indeed Message:

I'ver always thought that 'jealousy' applies to matters of the heart (i.e. who's got who's affections) and that 'envy' covers everything else. But otherwise, I think you're right on with this. Is there a word that describes wanting what others have in a way that is healthy? Even 'envy' is seems to imply a certain amount of desiring something for the wrong reasons. But everybody is envious of somebody who has something good and it can be motivating in a healthy way. When someone wins the lottery if we didn't feel some envy we would probably not be human. My kids show jealous tendences all the time, but it is a part of their learning process to discover that envy has to be a balanced emotion. All this talk about 'desire' being wrong seems like medieval myth mongering to control people with fear. Does anyone really suppose for example that Maharaji is beyond wanting stuff that he sees others having? No way and yet we were taught to shun desire. Desire to have what good things others have (jealousy in the 'bad' sense of the word) seems only destructive when it turns into hatred towards those who have it - or the wish to take whatever is deemed desirable away from others so you can have it instead! So Gurucharanand was getting laid as long ago as the '70s? That's important info beyond it's pure gossip value. Can you elaborate in any way whatsoever? Proof? Details even? This is what my best man at my wedding told me. I gues it would have been around '76-'77 in California. I've known him since he was 14 and got Knowledge with him. He used to kind of brag about this to people occasionally - but he is a current premie of the more unorthodox variety, who see everything as perfect and he seemed to think it was rather cool that Charanand had been seduced by his sexually ambitious girlfriend. I am certain that he personally was telling the truth. That leaves the girl who may have been lying but knowing her I doubt it - she was very sexually active. Anyway Guru Charanand could deny it couldn't he? if it became an issue. (not that it will). All these stories are basically deniable, but my experience tends to make me think that they are almost all true. Maybe I'm wrong. I doubt it. I mean how many premies a year ago would have not thought that there was any likelihood that Jagdeo was a paedophile? Not many. All of these rumours start as 'shock horror revelation' and then settle into reluctant fact as time goes by. I have nothing personally against old Charanand except maybe that he was quite happy to pass on to us the heavy righteous rap about dedication, surrender, etc. and came on like the saint that everyone thought he was. I am sure he deserved some good sex for once in his life. I really hope he had a good time. I actually just feel so bitter that all these people who I was clearly supposed to revere and heed as Mharaji's channels were actually not practicing what they preached. If I had known then I would have not invested so much time and trust. I feel that these stories are valuable not even because they are true or false, but that I have come across them at every turn, like it or not, during my premie life, and I resent that I should have to silently brew about things that have made me gradually lose my faith in God. Something that was a beautiful pure, wonderful aspiration that has been knocked out of me by all of this. My little 4 year girl told me tonight that she prays every night for God to keep me, her brother and mummy safe. She is so innocent and sweet. I also shared her simple faith in God until events gradualy made me doubt that my absolute trust in Maharaji was safe. I feel sort of corrupted by my premie life. I am pissed off that after being so dedicated to truth that I should have to keep mum about the things that I truly have heard that make a sham of the comittment that I made in totally good faith. You know what I mean? I am really sick of hearing rumours of hypocritic behaviour and having to ignore the implications. I have heard things that put me off that I cannot even bring myself to say here..and these are things I have witnessed myself. The truth is usually worse than the rumours in my experience. I firmly believe that now. I suspect that if it wasn't for the terror that premies have of Maharaji we would be hearing all kinds of similar stuff. It sickens me that so many premies have sold out their integrity. Sometimes I get calls from people who read the forum but are too indifferent or scared to tell share their stories. They clearly would like me to speak on their behalf (to take the flak) - sometimes I can't resist but usually I just tell them to do their own dirty laundry.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 10:10:19 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Corruption of innocence and loss of hope Message:

I have heard things that put me off that I cannot even bring myself to say here..and these are things I have witnessed myself. At some point I think you'd find it really healthy to get this stuff out. The loss of hope, loss of that sweeetness, was a big one for me too, which I thought was unresolvable for a few years, but it definitely isn't, and I now know a few people who have resolved this dilemma and ended up in very similar state of mind. BUT I would never have been able to reach it, and I suspect neither would others I know, without contact on a regular intimate basis with 20-35 year olds who are able to balance their and other peoples shadow sides AND STILL hold onto the sweet part. In the process the naivete of our generation is blown away and the gorgeous part is grounded. If one wanted to get a bit new agey about it you could call it truly taoist. This debate within the social zeitgeist can be mapped back to the failure of the sixties and the refusal of the following generations to go down the new age route. It took thirty years but has definitely been resolved. I know a lot of younger people who relate to aspects of hippy culture and don't mind people calling them 'fucking hippies', but they are not hippies as we knew them.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:13:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Envy's not necessarily bad Message:

I've got a friend who says he never feels it but I think he just has to be kidding himself. When you're a kid and you see your friend's new bike, you want one. That's life and I don't think it ever really changes. And I don't think it's bad. Patrick, you're such a nice guy (honestly) and that's why you're trying to fit together two such contradictory attitudes as these:   Patrick's one opinion: I am sure he deserved some good sex for once in his life. I really hope he had a good time. That's one. Don't deny it. But -- aha! -- then there's this thing here:   Patrick's OTHER opinion: I am sure he deserved some good sex for once in his life. I really hope he had a good time. I actually just feel so bitter that all these people who I was clearly supposed to revere and heed as Mharaji's channels were actually not practicing what they preached. If I had known then I would have not invested so much time and trust. I sense a seething anger there, Patrick. What did the girl look like?

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 13:08:11 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Envy's not necessarily bad Message:

Jim wrote: Patrick, you're such a nice guy (honestly) and that's why you're trying to fit together two such contradictory attitudes as these: Patrick's one opinion: I am sure he deserved some good sex for once in his life. I really hope he had a good time. etc. Nope you're right about this Jim. I'll retract that statement. Let me be more honest... If he enjoyed sex with this lady then that would make him even more guilty of having double-standards. I actually hope that she made him feel like the weak-willed hypocrite he was - 'Cos that would be what Maharaji would have wanted us all to feel if we dared to disobey his Divine Order to be celibate. Is that better?!

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 03:12:18 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: I hope I'm not intruding but I need some advice... Message:

Hello, I've been reading the website and links--there's so much to read. Today, I read the section called Shattered Lives and Tragedies. That was right after I read Susan's letter to m section. I feel very stunned and I request your advice. Something happened to me after I received knowledge that to this day has left a hole in my heart. It was a tragedy I experienced due to trickery and betrayal and it involved Charanand and a premie I had a relationship with. I need advice about how I should tell this story. Mahatma Guru Charanand Ji as I always heard it was a realized soul. Having just read the Shattered Lives section and now this 'Charanand fucked women in the 70's' really caught my attention. I don't have to talk in code to tell you I had no choice in the matter. What should I do? Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 03:22:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I hope I'm not intruding but I need some advice... Message:

Hey, Cynth, Email? heller@bc1.com or maybe even call if you like: (250) 360-1040 Too much

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 03:32:29 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim..I'll email you Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 03:37:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Jim..I'll email you Message:

OK, a friend's coming over but I'll check my email in a while. Too much

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 03:34:01 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Jim..I'll email you(sorry) NT ABOVE ^^^ Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:40:37 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jealousy and envy. Message:

I've always thought that 'jealousy' applies to matters of the heart (i.e. who's got who's affections) and that 'envy' covers everything else. But otherwise, I think you're right on with this. No big deal, Jim, but I think 'jealous' originally means the desire to hang on to what you've got (eg. to 'jealously protect' one's lover or bank balance) while 'envy' is the desire to acquire somebody's 100ft yacht and matching Gulfstream jet.

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Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 04:40:19 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: On Jealousy and envy. Message:

I've been using jealously to describe when I want what another person's got and envy when not only do I want it but I want the other person to not have it any longer. So jealously is pretty benign for the other person but envy might lead me to want to pull down the other person. Serious work competitors can sometimes get envious of their colleagues and want to derail their careers. Politicians are often ruled by envy often termed pay-back. Cheers Peter

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Date: Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 16:57:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: That's a very personal interpretation, Peter Message:

I think Nigel's nearer to the dictionary definition of the meaning of those words, regardless of the interpretation the likes of Dr Kenner gives. As the Oxford English Dictionary says of the word JEALOUSY: 'Troubled by the belief, suspicion, or fear that the good which one desires to gain or keep for oneself has been or may be diverted to another; resentful towards another on account of known or suspected rivalry'

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:44:48 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Jealousy and envy. Message:

Yeah, that makes sense actually. OK, nap time.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 23:54:34 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jealousy and envy. Message:

OK, nap time. I'll give you a shout when Mili replies.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:32:15 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Patrick Subject: .............his human weaknesses Message:

are precisely what turned me from being a premie into an ex-premie , when I 1st found out about them a few months ago. Any premie who knows about this stuff & disregards it , is contemptible. Political leaders' foibles , however gross , are irrelevant if they don't interfere with the job. They have , after all , been elected to deal with more important things than who's shagged whom , who drinks too much ,& all that shit. Their legitimacy rests on the process that the public has agreed , whatever it's flaws , is the best one for choosing a leader. The legitimacy of a spiritual leader , especially one outside any traditional framework , rests on the extent to which he embodies the virtues he preaches. Rawat has , for all his life in the West , hidden 'himself' from the people he encouraged to devote themselves to him. If he can be compared to any sort of 'leader' , he ranks only with the gangster despots who hold so many people in their thrall. Be proud that you weren't a scumbag like him when you thought you were living in his 'shelter'. Rawat is a betrayer of Love , Truth , & Justice. He's lucky he never made it to be a World Leader , he'd need more than the wpc to protect him now , if he had. ALLONS ENFANTS.............

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Date: Thurs, Nov 09, 2000 at 21:48:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: interesting post Message:

I just read Michael Isikoff's story of the Clinton saga. I too kept seeing cult analogies everywhere. It was a good book too. I do not think Clinton operates a cult, that is not at all what I am saying. But he does deal with problems by insulating himself from blame, and he does blame the people who see his problems as having something wrong with them because they see them. It makes perfect sense to me that Rawat would make such a joke. Uck.

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