Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 18:07:32 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Aren't M's Sexual Abuses really about Power? Message:

I think one of the key points Michael mentioned about Maharaji's sexual abuses, was that Maharaji began having sex with his women followers about the time he and Marolyn were having marriage problems. I don't know what those problems were, but from Maharaji's perspective, they most likely were perceived by him as Marolyn standing up to him, disagreeing with him, arguing or fighting with him, and let's face it, Maharaji was not used to that. He was used to people responding positively to his every whim and never crossing him, and so Marolyn's behavior was probably very confronting. Plus, Michael said Maharaji was really freaked out about his marriage problems, because Mata Ji would have been able to say 'I told you so' and it would have looked really bad in India, and maybe in the West as well, if he broke up with Marolyn, or she with him. And perhaps Marolyn was withholing sex, or maybe there was just too much friction between the two of them for that to happen. Both those things would tend to lead to some self-doubt, something Maharaji probably had no idea how to deal with. So, having sex with his followers, especially serially, with no ties or feelings of obligations, on his part whatsoever, might have been partly a response to that. Not only did he get to have sex with women, those women also probably continued to worship and adore him, before, during and after the sex. It must have made him feel quite powerful, a real man, a real Perfect Master. Whatever it was, since he summarily dumped these women after having sex with them without the slightest concern about their well-being, it was clear he didn't really see them as human beings, just objects for him to get his, extremely bizarre, needs taken care of. It also appears that perhaps his extramarital affairs, as well as his ongoing mistress, Monica Lewis, were ways of keeping the marriage together for external appearances. For example, I have been told by people in a position to know and whom I trust, that Maharaji's sexual affair with Monica Lewis actually began as a menage a tois (sp?) with Marolyn. At least this is believed by people who were around Maharaji. I have a suggestion. Since I think every premie, and especially ever aspirant or potential aspirant, should know about this, and because I think it would have a profound impact on many, I was wondering if someone would be willing to write up a short summary of the disclosures about Maharaji's sexual abuses of his followers. We could put it on the net and anyone could print it off, and hand it out at satellite or video events in their area, especially during 'preparing for knowledge' sort of events. We might have a separate sheet about Maharaji killing that cyclist in India and fleeing the scene, maybe one about Maharaji allowing Jagdeo to continue to prey on children, maybe one about Maharaji's drinking problem and drug habits as well. All the sheets ought to have this website listed as well. In the least, it might require Maharaji to say something about it, or Elan Vital to do so. I would LOVE to see that, considering how inept they are at covering over for Maharaji. What do think?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:55:40 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Joe Subject: Blowing the whistle Message:

I had the same idea - a separate website with a succinct article about this and each of the other main abuses, and links to this one. And something easy to download and print up and hand to people in appropriate situations. And maybe small ads saying 'Are you or were you a premie? Check out www.maharajithe scumbag.com' Even though this stuff is most obviously good for current premies, it is probably the most valuable for the thousands and thousands of exes who never really had completion with Maharraji. They drifted away, but perhaps are still subconsciously blaming themselves for not succeeding as premies, or still hold a romantic view of MJ. I mean, there were thousands and thousands of us. There are very few current premies and relatively few who come here. Which leaves a lot of people in the no-zone who could really benefit from some facts which might validate what they felt in their gut, but thought they were crazy. That's what this is for me. A validation of my intuition that led me to leave when none of this was known. Love Disculta

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:40:36 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Joe Subject: Perhaps Marolyn was 'withholing sex'? (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 23:23:42 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Aren't M's Sexual Abuses really about Power? YES! Message:

Hi Joe, and everybody, I liked what all of you said in your posts. I've had extensive training and experience working with rape victims and adult incest survivors. I've learned very much about the dynamics of a sexual offense. Rape, incest, sexual abuse are all issues of power and control by the perpetrator. A father has ultimate power over his daughter or son; a priest has ultimate power (for true believers) over his parishioners, a rapist has total control over his victim because of the threat of the most invasive, life-altering experience, which is sexual assault. I must add here that state statutes vary about what constitutes a ''sexual assault,'' however, my personal definition of the same is that the victim is experiencing a life threatening attack: the most invasive possible, and the most life damaging when it occurs. As far a Maharaji is concerned, I consider him at the very least, some kind of a sexual offender, depending upon the country, province, state he had these ''liasons.' A charlatan, fraud, a con-man who has young women, anyone, including males looking at him from the perspective of a devotee, parent, friend, and lover leads me to the conclusion that anyone who engaged with sexual encounters with him was raped. It appeared to be consensual, and of course was superficially, but when you boil it all down, Maharaji's tremendous charissma, power and control fully supercedes any young, brainwashed woman or man's ability to make a concensual choice. It's got to be rape because rape is always about power and control. Rape is not sex in any way, shape or form. If gopies are sexual slaves, then what are female premies? Or male? At the rate revelations are coming out here about Maharaji, I would not doubt he at least experimented in same sex sex. There may have been a woman who was a premie who completely knew what was going on and had consensual (shit I can't spell tonight) sex with Maharaji. But I doubt there were many premies. I bet he raped quite a few. The bastard. I sounds and feels like the Jim Jones thing to me lately. All the information about hit and runs, absolutely immoral behavior, abuse of power, and complicity in crimes. The way Maharaji just felt free to pick and choose among his young ashram premies, to play with, to humiliate, to throw away as if they were trash. What a fucking bastard. For shame Maharaji, Goooooooomraji, Unhappy New Year to Maharaji!!!

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 03:18:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Cynthia -- with all due respect ................. Message:

I'm sorry but I think you're making the mistake of using just one crayon when you've got several to choose from. Comments like 'Rape is not sex in any way, shape or form' are really quite indefensible in broad daylight. As in most things, there's a spectrum of reasons and explanations that might apply. Rape can be nothing but a power play; alternatively, it can simply be a callous act of stolen sex, sex as the goal itself, the 'bottom line' as Jerry was talking about. My guess is that Maharaji USED his corrupt power over premies to seduce them but not to prove anything so much as to have an unconscionable 'good time'.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:18:44 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim-- with all due respect back................. Message:

Hi Jim, I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner. I've been working at a new job which has taken a lot of my energy. Anyway, thanks for showing me where I have black and white thinking...I understand what you are saying here. There is a broad spectrum of sex offenses, so to call what M did to premie women rape may be extreme. Then I wonder: is it too extreme to call it rape? As you pointed out Jim, the situation would vary, from woman to woman, yet the circumstances, with Maharaji's goal to control and have power over people, is some type of sexual offense. I'm sure it would vary criminally. I knew so many young women like myself would would have felt so lucky to be with him and the lila of it all would have precluded any concerns about Marolyn nor the kids. It's very weird, to try to put myself back when all I wanted was to obey his agya, in the ashram, without question or doubt. I find it hard to believe I was ever in that situation sometimes. Be well, Jim Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 22:49:28 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Joe Subject: Of course they're about Power , I agree Message:

1 He's God : that's powerful. 2 He's rich : that's powerful. 3 He likes drink & drugs : that's weak. 4 He puts loyalty to his wife below his desire to fuck pretty girls : that's weak. 5 He did turn down his CEO's offer to be his pimp : that's careful. Add those together , I reckon you've got a guy who's going to take the scam to the wire , come what may.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 19:51:08 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Joe Subject: Maybe, maybe not Message:

That's a good psychoanalysis of why M was/is fooling around, but I find it suspect, Joe. One, we don't know if M had already been messing around before he shared his concerns with Michael. For all we know, he was, and that's what caused the friction in his and Marolyn's marriage. Getting Michael's cooperation in getting him women might have just been the latest ploy in a long ongoing scheme for extramarital affairs that had been occuring long before Michael entered the picture. Who knows? I think Maharaji probably realized his power to 'conquer' whatever women devotees he wanted since he reached puberty, and was probably getting laid regularly long before his marriage to Marolyn. I think extramarital affairs were something that had been going on since early in his marriage, and was something that Marolyn just learned to live with. That's just the kind of guy I think Maharaji is. I doubt he's ever been faithful to one woman. In direct response to your question, I don't think Maharaji used women to make himself feel more powerful. I think he just used his power to get more women. That would be the evolutionary psychology way of looking at it. If getting laid is the bottom line, than you use what means you have at your disposal to achieve that end. You have to admit, Maharaji has got a means to end all means. 'Hey, baby, I bet you're wondering what it would be like to sleep with a man who's got all 64 powers. Well, I could show you if you'd really like to know.' I'll bet Marolyn was curious, and found out soon enough that he didn't have so many powers after all. But by then, M probably couldn't care. He'd just find some other willing gopies who wanted to partake of his powers. And that's another thing. It's a two way street. I don't think these woman were just servicing the Lord. I think they thought they were probably the most desirable women in the universe if Maharaji had a hankering for them, and probably felt a surge of power themselves for having been selected. Whatever, the whole things perverted on both sides, the gopies' and Maharaji's

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 07:44:38 (GMT) From: Fuktbihymns Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Are ya jellus we got laid by the lord!!! Message:

It's the ultimeat hi!?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 05:03:43 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: insensitive I think Message:

He'd just find some other willing gopies who wanted to partake of his powers. And that's another thing. It's a two way street. I don't think these woman were just servicing the Lord. I think they thought they were probably the most desirable women in the universe if Maharaji had a hankering for them, and probably felt a surge of power themselves for having been selected. Whatever, the whole things perverted on both sides, the gopies' and Maharaji's I completely disagree. This is NOT a two way street. It can't be unless the woman is a non premie, a very jaded on her way out premie, or even an ex premie. If the woman bought the shit we were all fed about who He was than it just isn't at all as you describe it. Sure, they could go on some spiritual ego trip they wer chosen, but the only reason anyone would consent to this deal is because they BELIEVED in 'Him'. If a male ashram premie is told it is the Lord's agya that he meet Maharaji at the Four Seaon's in the Presidential Suite at 11:00 pm, and isn't told why...he would go? At least all the ashram premies I knew would. I think too, even the males, the most heterosexual of them, that were in the Ashram, would have slept with Rawat if he asked them to. And even if they didn't, there would have been confusion, deep guilt, about the lack of 'trust' that they had if they refused, or freaked. I do not think most premies, men or women, wanted to have sex with the Guru, but I think at least the ashram premies, at the heydey of the cult, would have done anything he asked. I think most would have commited suicide if he had asked. Many might have murdered if he asked. People regularly turned over trust funds and everything they owned to him. They really thought he was God. I do not think they had the capacity to say no to him, the women who were approached, unless they were already on their way out and this was the last drip. Please give this some thought, because some of the women victimzied this way could be reading this, and I am sure that they need to hear that it was not their fault, and that yes, it was a horrible thing that he did to them. I for one think they deserve compassion, and no blame.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 14:28:42 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: I suppose you're right Message:

Susan, I admit it. I don't feel any great compassion for the women who agreed to bed down with M. And maybe therein I err, and can't make as true an assessment of the matter as somebody with more compassion, such as yourself, can. I just think there's a limit to everything, to how much we'll take. It's not as if we didn't have doubts to begin with. You would think something like this would be the straw that broke the camel's back and set these women free. Somehow, I can't help but think they'd snap out of it when they picked up which way the wind was blowing. If you're right, apparently they didn't and thought they were being tested and just did as they were commanded. But, personally, I don't see them as that helpless. My belief is that no matter how much we give ourselves to somebody, there's still a part of us that is sovereign territory that people would be wise to tread lightly on. It's that sense of sovereinty that ultimately sets us free from Maharaji. I hope it set these women free after their trysts with him. In a pathetic sort of way, it might have been their pathway to freedom if they were wise enough to see just how deluded they had become about the 'master'. In any event, you're right. Compassion is the better way, especially if these women are feeling dirty about themselves in the aftermath. It doesn't help to judge anyone harshly, and it's not my intent to belittle anybody.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 18:10:16 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Thanks and I think you have a point with aftermath Message:

it could be the final drip, or perhaps more like tidal wave, that snapped a person out of it. I know when I was putting myself in the shoes of these women thinking about it I thought, nah, I would have just run like hell. But we just can't really look back and completely remember what it was like to believe in the guru crap. You have a great point too, there was never a time I didn't have doubts. But we were all taught those doubts were mind. And we all had situations in which the doubts became a 'test'. We all justified the obvious greed and materialism of Rawat, I know I heard about what Mishler was saying and dealt with that with the standard monmot bitter stuff. Someone who left recently who posts here said the best thing she realized the doubts she had all these years were 'her true self speaking'. I would bet that some of the chosen women did leave the cult after a night of sex with the man they had once lined up to kiss his feet. But I think most people proccess things like this too slowly to let the doubts win that fast. I know that I have a few times been paralyzed when it dawns on me I am in a bad situation of some sort, and later wish I had listened to my gut and ran. It actually might be Jagdeo that makes me empathize with these women. They were of age, at least I hope they were, but I do not think that because of the guru devotee relationship they had a fair chance to see this for what it was. Jagdeo, started all of his crap with kids by making them feel special, and chosen, more spiritual, better devotees, than those he didn't chose. This was incredibly seductive. Kids needing attention and love, whose premie parents did not sadly put the kids as #1 priority. I was a little different, I was older, 15, and I think more in a position to say no, so that is why I escaped with so little happening to me. With me, we were Bhole Shriing and satsanging and completely getting into the guru trip when he started grabbing us. In fact the grabbing really became like the 'Ki Jai' then he would put his hand where he wanted. With other kids, and I cannot be too specific here, it was worse, but basically, they were told to go along with worsening levels of abuse by being told it was 'their mind' that was preventing them from going on to the next level of abuse. So I know that the devotee etho can be used terribly to sexually abuse a person. And it would be interesting if Michael knows if Rawat used things like this in having sex with these women. But even if he didn't, they were pretty condidtioned to make these excuses for him without prompting. Rawat surely saw himself as 'Krishna and the milkmaids' or some such crap. Anyway, I think it would be easy to look at this like some famous rock star having sex with a groupie. But I do not think that was very likely the dynamic of what happened at all.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 21:08:01 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Doesn't it depend on the woman and all that? Message:

Frankly, I can imagine some circumstances that would leave me with much less sympathy for the woman than others. What about her concerns for Marolyn or the kids for example? What was the woman herself hoping to gain? Maybe she knew about Monica Lewis and wanted, like her, to get set up as a kept woman or something? All of these issues are relevant and I'd wnat to know something more regarding them before donating any money the shelter for Maharaji's former lovers. And none of this, by the way, lets him off the hook in the slightest.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:05:38 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: I agree that what you are saying is possible Message:

And I too am hoping Michael can give us more insight into this. What makes me lean toward donating to the home for former lover's ( and frankly I would think his former toys would be more apt ) is that I do not think a woman who could think as clearly as you and Jerry are suggesting would WANT to boff the Lard. If she can be concerned about Marolyn, then she must be able to see herself as more aware of what is right for Marolyn and the kids than her Lord. And if she sees herself being a more noble person than the Lard, then well, why on Earth with would she want to sleep with such a short fat slimy little meglomaniac? The only way this guy is going to get attractive women is by playing the two cards he has, the God card and the money card. I suppose someone could love him for who he truly is deep down, but frankly he doesn't admit to being an ordinary flawed human so that is out. I REALLY doubt there is a whole lot of Monica Lewis envy out there among people who don't think the is the MASTER. Why would you want to be the kept woman of this little guy? Only if you thought he was the Lord. Or, if I guess you felt it was the best deal you could get....but I do not think Rawat was going after women who were without the 'assets' to be with men who had more to offer them. Right? Just think about it a little. The only way someone would sleep with him is the God trip or for money. And Michael offered to get him someone who would do it for money, and Rawat turned him down. I think because having a woman think she is sleeping with God is likely a bit of a turn on and a good way to get what you want. Jim, what would have happened, at the height of your devotion, if the Lord had wanted to have sex with you? Would you have done it? Considered it? Snapped out of cultdom immediately? I am waiting for your answer!

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:39:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Wait no longer, Ms. Lascivious Question, you! Message:

Jim, what would have happened, at the height of your devotion, if the Lord had wanted to have sex with you? Would you have done it? Considered it? Snapped out of cultdom immediately? I am waiting for your answer! (When Laurie sees this she'll think I lied about going out to the jail, but Laurie, hon', I siad I had to stop home to get my cell, didn't I? And what are you doing reading the forum now anyway?) Susan, I honestly think that I would have snapped out of the cult right there and then. Mind you, I'm only guessing. Fortunately, that's all I can do with that question. And all I'll ever have to.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 22:42:24 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jim Subject: LOL Message:

I think you would have too....but I don't think everyone would have. I would have started crying. Hopefully, that would have got me out of it. I don't think I would have snapped that fast, but I might have flipped out to the extent he no longer found it desirable to sleep with me. I am glad too, that I'll never have to know.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 06:55:50 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Susan Subject: insensitive I think Message:

Hear hear!

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 21:30:53 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Jerry Subject: You just have to be a man Message:

To make those comments about the gopis. The relationship between premie and master is not a sexual, procreational mating one, it is a father and child relationship. Think of it like a nubile blond thirteen year old and her father. Now you can get really angry with the fat fuck. and while I am on the subject of the Master's sex life, my guess is that it is not good healthy sex, but more like a play on s & m. the master/slave relationship is a close mirror of the father/child relationship where the father is authoritarian and tyrannical.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 01:21:16 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Lesley Subject: Oh, stop Message:

These woman were/are going to bed with Maharaji. I hardly think they looked upon him as a father figure that being the case. If they did, don't you think they'd be just a tad bit disgusted with the notion of going to bed with 'daddy' and decline the offer? I do. But thanks for the correct spelling of 'gopis'.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 19:59:19 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oh, stop.....uh uh Message:

Jerry, perverted is right, but I think you have to lay the blame for the perversion where it belongs. We all paid a high yet subtle price for Maharaji's 'testosterone ride'. The silly fat fuck was stealing all the women, and you could say to them hey how come you're that dumb, or you could acknowledge that each one of us who believed in him contributed to the situation. In the interests of enjoying my day, I won't go down this road, but try imagining some of the attitudes male pams would have to the poor girl. yech yech yech, deep breath.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 04:46:03 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Jerry Subject: the res people called them 'dad' and 'mom' Message:

at least the ones I knew did in the late '70s. It will be interesting to hear more from Michael on the subject. More interesting still if one of the 'chosen' women ever comes forward with more. You are my mother, you are my father, you are my brother and you are my friend'....if someone was singing those words every night, and meaning them think of the mental devastation that would ensue after a night of being a sex toy of your father, mother, brother and friend. But I would bet that few women who would agree to sleep with Rawat would arrive for the engagement thinking they were there to have a fling or a good time. If they were that deprogrammed they would say 'no' and sleep with someone more attractive ( like say his chaeffer?). Even though I just made a joke I do not think this was at all a laughing matter when one thinks of the feelings of the women called for this service. They almost certainly saw this as a spiritual thing, not a sexual thing. What would I have thought if I were told Rawat wanted to meet me in his hotel in 1978? I would have thought it was proof of His Love for me, and that he had read my heart and my desire to be closer to him. If I had realized he wanted me there to have sex with him, I would have freaked. And I would have had sex with him anyway. Why? I would have seen it as a test, I would have seen my doubts as my mind, I would have seen his wanting to have sex as a desire to break my concepts, or maybe I would have seen it as an expression of His love for me. And if afterward, he pretended it never happened? I would have flipped out. I am certain that it would have been devastationg beyond belief. And what would my premie programming have told me? Lila, a test, I am in my mind. Who am I to expect more, to not be grateful to have just one night with my Lord. Those would have been the guilt trips I laid on myself. And sadly, I think, if other premies knew what happened, that is the 'satsang' they would give the victim too. That there was something wrong with her for not trusting 'Him' and that she is ungrateful that he planted His Holy Seed in her. I can easily see how people might trivialize what these women went through, and just see it like picking up a guy at a bar. But it is nothing like that, it is abuse of the highest order. As devoted premies they had no ability to decline his offer, to decline it would be tantamount to saying you don't believe in him. The more I think about this the worse I see it.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 07:14:08 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Susan Subject: the res people called them 'dad' and 'mom' Message:

Susan, I know a lot of premies who still call maharaji 'dad' and marolyn 'mom'. Almost without exception they are highly-placed security personel, which I find interesting. And disturbing.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 20:31:59 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Maybe, maybe not Message:

I think if Maharaji had been fucking around prior to the marriage difficulties with Marolyn and prior to when he asked Michael to set him up with women, Michael and others on the staff would have known about it. Plus, if he had such good luck getting women and was used to it, he wouldn't have needed to have Michael do the procurement. Maybe he was, but I think we will never know. I just thought it was interesting that when he was having marriage difficulties he then decided to turn to other women, and even have Michael get them for him. I have always thought that Maharaji has done things in order to reinforce his image of himself. Like giving darshan and doing programs so that he can have people worship him and that makes him feel powerful again. Involvement with women who 'adore' him, might do much the same thing at a time when he was freaked that he was unable to keep his marriage together.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 19:57:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Yeah, that's probably true too Message:

Being that these affairs were clandestine and Maharaji was already the Lord of the Universe to everyone he sees on a daily a basis, it's quite likely that he just lucked getting fucked a lot. Maybe it helps him sleep. People try all sorts of things ....

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 19:24:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Aren't M's Sexual Abuses really about Power? Message:

It's a great idea. Ultimately, we could have our own summary report or article to give to people. The other night, after we saw Steve at the Satellite Live Broadcast of a Pre-Recorded Video Event, we stayed with some musician friends. Turns out one of their roommates' mothers had just gone to India to see Sai Baba. Indeed, Amir himself had a picture of Sai Baba in his room. I guess his family had gotten into the cult a bit recently and he was dabbling a bit too. Amir knew absolutely nothing about the controversy surrounding SB (not OUR SB, Sai Baba). And he was really quite open to learn what's what in that regard. He WANTED to hear. So how convenient that I was able to find the Daily Telegraph article about the sexual abuse allegations for him to look over on his computer. Then there were the stills from the video that catches Baba Ji's sleight of hand in 'materializing' a gold necklace. But that article is powerful. It's succint, well-written and comprehensive. Something like that re Maharaji would be excellent. And no one's better able to write it than you, Joe. Mind you, if you're not into it there are several others here I can think of who could do an excellent job too. Even some of the women could probably do an okay job at least. :) Of course, one possible approach, with obvious benefits but perhaps soem drawbacks as well, would be to have Mike himself author or co-author such an article. I'd volunteer but I'm going to be too busy chasing fresh powder. (Now that's a REAL joke.) Of course

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 19:12:09 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji's sex life Message:

Could somebody please repost the post from Dettmers where he describes Maharaji's request for premie women to have sex with. I'm amazed that all the threads aren't about this. It seems just about the most damning of all the drip-worthy revelations. It's totally abusive, as someone noted below. It's not like he was in love with someone and wanted to make love with them. He was looking for PREMIE WOMEN TO HAVE SEX WITH - like objects! And these are beings who have entrusted their souls to him. If it's true, it should be put in the newspapers and printed out and given to all premies. I haven't read the actual post from Michael, and I couldn't pull it up because it's fallen out of the inactive index. Could someone post it here please?

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 03:39:16 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Maharaji, Jagdeo - same abusive behavior Message:

I finally made a big connection reading these posts. No wonder M ignored the reports about Jagdeo's sexual abuse. M was engaged in similar behavior himself. He didn't want to point the finger at Jagdeo when he was doing the same thing. Doesn't that make sense? Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 04:19:58 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Marianne and Disculta Subject: Absolutely Message:

And I've been thinking about how Elaine waxed spiritual about how m looked her in the eyes for a few minutes when she got a front row seat somehow. (Isn't synchronicity amazing?) It reminded me of the standard bar come-on. Why should Jagdeo's m's abuse of girls and young women be less significant than Sai Baba's abuse of boys and young men? My sister just gave me a long article that is hitting Canadian papers about Sai Baba. I think it's a good time to start really exposing m's REAL 'boobs'. (And I could scan it if anyone is really interested, but to me the significant thing is that within a couple of months there have been very strong statements against Sri Chinmoy and Sai Baba in mainstream Canadian newspapers.)

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 04:32:21 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Marianne and Disculta Subject: Headline:'Sect leader accused of preying on men' Message:

The headline was 'Sect leader accused of preying on men'.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:59:26 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: The apparent lack of outrage Message:

It's even worse. Maharaji didn't even proposition these women himself, he had someone else do it. He had his devotees arrange for him to have sex with other devotees. It was just too beneath him to do it himself, I mean, what if he was turned down. He is truly the lowest of the low. How on earth can people even stand to hear him speak, let alone revere him? It is very appalling, but then, I had a hard time being appalled, since I have known about Maharaji's sexual liaisons with premie women for years. Michael just confirmed it. I didn't know about Monica Lewis being his mistress until I found this website, but I knew about his alcoholism and his sex with blond premie women. Frankly, I think a lot of premies know about these things, as well as Jagdeo, as well as a number of other of Maharaji's transgressions. What I think is amazing is that I haven't seen ONE premie even attempt to defend Maharaji, nor to deny it. Sure, they, like Danny, have attacked the messenger, but not even the most facile attempt has been made to defend the former Lord of the Universe. Danny, for one, knows this stuff is all true, and so he can't. I think a lot of premies either know, or strongly suspect, that Maharaji is a pretty scummy person. But much in the same way that abused children come to the defense of parents who are abusing them, since he is THEIR scummy person, and someone whom they consider essential to their identitities and survival, much as a child might see an abusive parent, they don't reject him. It's sick, symbiotic relationship.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 02:07:26 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Joe Subject: The apparent lack of outrage Message:

I never knew this latest piece. I knew that MJ had had some affairs, and I learned about Monica from these sites. But this thing of procuring AND THEN DUMPING premie women is really shocking to me, even after all this time. I am thinking of moments when, perhaps, I did, for a change, feel a smattering of MJ's attention flickering towards me, and interpreted it as loving. I was around him a bit, wanting some acknowledgement of course as I did whatever nothing-and-nobody activity. And now I am wondering if he ever, ever looked at me with eyes of love, or was just checking me out, beautiful blonde that I was (and am!). It's surprising how outrageous this is to me. I have talked with so many people from other gurus, discussing the subject of guru abuse and one of the things I have always said is that, while Maharaji was a lousy meditation teacher and financially on the take, he didn't exhibit the really gross abuse of devotees that others did. I thought it was because he was either uxorously married or socially inept, but at least he didn't seem to me like a sexual predator. The thing that is the most OUTRAGEOUS to me is that after fucking these women, he dumped them by cutting off contact. This is about the most cruel, dehumanizing, demeaning behavior imaginable. Actually, in many ways, I guess I already felt that he had fucked me and then cut off contact. He invited me in to this intimate Lord of the Universe, give your all and I'll take care of you party and then was unavailable to help me through the difficulties this created for me. And when I sent my 'Goodbye Ex-Lord letter' and didn't get a reply, like so many people on this website have described, I felt incredibly undervalued after giving so much of my life. Anyway, just had to rant and this is the place... Outraged

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 02:28:56 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: The apparent lack of outrage Message:

Yeah, the dumping part is pretty outrageous, but I'm not surprised because Maharaji has never had to clean up his own messes, and certainly his development and maturity are so truncated that he is probably incapable of interpersonal relationships. God only knows what his relationship with Marolyn is all about. I shiver to imagine. I never had any personal involvement with Maharaji. I never had any illusion that he was even aware I was alive, other than in the usual spiritual mumbo jumbo of Maharaji's grace, and Maharaji taking care of us, and all that nonsense. It was just a weird dream; more like a nightmare. Diculta, I thought you knew someone personally whom Maharaji abused badly. Didn't Maharaji's actions with that person let you see what kind of a disgusting jerk Maharaji really is, and hence make his treatment of these women not all that surprising?

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 00:19:19 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Joe Subject: The apparent lack of outrage Message:

Yes, but if you remember, that friend has GONE BACK to Maharaji! And she knew all the x-rated stuff - that's where I first heard about it. He never SEXUALLY abused her as far as I knew. But the control he exercised over her mind 'I never want you to have ONE sexual thought' was obviously abusive, and also another command that he wasn't keeping. Actually, the worst kind of scumbag I can imagine is a spiritual teacher who fucks his devotees and then ignores them. I cannot imagine a more emotionally psychotic-making behavior> For me, after all else I've heard, this is gold medal Olympic scumbaag contention. Love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:09:00 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Disculta Subject: please read Michael Dettmers Message:

Along with Disculta I too, the more I digest it, think this is one of the most disgusting things that has come to light. The women who Rawat 'chose' did not have the capacity to consent to have sex with him in a normal way. Someone posted about why it was Rawat turned down your call girl suggestion. I think they hit it on the head. A call girl would see Rawat as a short fat awkward but filthy rich guy that is paying her to have sex with him. It likely was not a very exciting prospect for him, to have someone see him for what he really is the way a call girl would. On the other hand, if he has sex with a premie woman, she thinks he is 'God'. She has to have sex with him if it is his agya and Lila. This could be a very big 'turn on' to him. I also think it is abuse. I do not think that the guru procuring devotees to have sex with is just his business, or private, and I think it is spiritual abuse and abuse of power and privledge. He knew these women thought he was 'god' 'perfect master' 'lord of the universe'. How could they say no? Jagdeo used his postion as a trusted Mahatma to abuse girls( and maybe boys ). He also used the tenets of our cult to get the girls to go along with what he wanted. He would twist it that if they did what he wanted it was part of some spiritual proccess. Because these were children it was much worse than Rawat. But there is a similarity, because any woman that was called upon to have the service of servicing Rawat's sexual whims was being abused. Because you just can't consent to have sex with God without it being an incredible abuse. I would just bet too that part of his 'seduction' was to enmesh the perfect master crap with sex just like Jagdeo did with kids as part of the molestation. Michael, if you would give us more details about how Rawat went about this I would like to know: 1) What did he tell you specifically when he asked you to let someone know she had been chosen? 2) What did you say to the women in question? 'Maharaji wants to have sex with you' 'meet Maharaji at 10:00 pm at the Presidential Suite of the Four Seasons'. Did the women know for sure what service was in store for them before they arrived in the room? Do you think they saw the encounter in a spiritual context? Was it his agya, his lila? Do you think any of them saw it as mere sexual opportunism on his part? What about when he dumped them afterward? What feelings did they express? What sort of anguish were they in? How did you console them ( the Lord works in mysterious ways?) 3) Are any of the women this happened to ex's? Current premies? Are you in touch? I would like to hear from them how they have dealt with this experience in the context of moving on with their lives. I would like to know just how much Rawat used the concepts of agya, mind, lila, etc in his what I consider to be abuse of them. Thanks, Susan

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 11:46:08 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Susan Subject: please read Michael Dettmers Message:

Susan, I am travelling to Atlanta today returning home tomorrow. I will respond to your question sometime this weekend. Michael

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 05:10:52 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: thanks Michael (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 11:23:20 (GMT) From: alan Email: smithutodd@aol.com To: Susan Subject: please read Michael Dettmers Message:

hi susan i read you letter on the ex-premie site and i guess i am asking for you to fill me in as i had not heared any of this. I am not really up on the latest on maharaji, being many years since i was involved with DLM as it was then i am thinking about getting back into the flow but i now read all this negative info about somebody that i once held as well the same as yourself the perfect master . I guess that i am more cynical but still i look for a path it is sad that i too was taken in when young if what you say is true but where does that leave us? where is a pathway to self and knowledge hope you find time to ansawer if not then may you find what we together with many others are looking for love and perfect peace alan

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 05:10:17 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: alan Subject: Hi Alan Message:

keep reading the site and the blanks will fill in. I do not have any special wisdom about life other than to say I still believe it is a gift and a miracle. I do not however, think that Maharaj Ji has anything to do with it being a gift or a miracle. He just wants all the credit for pointing out what most people already know, and he wants your gratitude and your soul, and your life, as one of his many possessions. He is a creep and a fraud. But life, it is a miracle, I agree.

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 21:51:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: alan Subject: paths and pathways Message:

As I tend to do I am in crisis with work shit right now. Someone gave me advice today that I liked. It may not be popular here or may, who knows? But what she said was, Try to analyze if your choices are fear choices or growth choices. I liked that.

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Date: Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 06:05:35 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Selene Subject: paths and pathways Thanks Selene :) Message:

Good one. I copied it.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 00:15:08 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Stonor Subject: you are welcome Message:

This is helping work through my decisions. Fear makes me want to stay in my secure little bubble. It is also not so off topic because I feel that leaving M was a growth choice and it was scary and hard but worth it.

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Date: Sun, Dec 31, 2000 at 02:54:07 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Selene Subject: You are a true survivor! Message:

Hi Selene, Although I haven't been through what you have, I have been through other things which have put me through a similar process (different scale), and it hasn't been easy, but it has always gotten better after a while. It's quite strange the way you are in a kind of limbo or suspended animation, like a spell has been cast on you. Quite amazing what we can survive, isn't it?! I've learned that each time I make it through any kind of 'hell', I become a little stronger, and wiser. Yes, I know I can be an absolute idiot at times, but I'm still working on me! Thanks for helping me to understand better what you've all been through. I will never forget crashing at AG and having my first conversation with you and Forum God. (That Jim's-bitchiness-thing was definitely not ho hum either! ;) Can you believe that I don't know any Blue Rodeo Songs unless I know one and don't know it's Blue Rodeo?!) I raise my virtual glass to you. Cheers Selene!! You're a true survivor!!! Big Happy New Year's Hugs! Love, Anna

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 21:52:34 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Susan Subject: one more small question for Michael Dettmers Message:

A woman premie friend of mine who lived in San Diego in the 80's told me that she was approached by a PAM with news that Maharaji wanted to have more children but Marilyn was now too old. Do you know if that reasoning was ever put forth to women who were solicited? (p.s. my friend was blond and quite attractive). This could have been a good excuse for the sex, since it could have been presented as a way for the Master to bring some additional very blessed children into the world, or some such nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 20:58:14 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Susan Subject: best darshan story ever Message:

Going to the Presidential Suite at the Four Season's Hotel (or some such) to meet the living Incarnation of God for sex. WOW!!! And all the details about the initial invitation, what clothes to wear, the first meeting glances, the conversation, the techniques (four or more) of love-making. No, no, it's too much. Actually, Sir Dave's site has a second-hand account supposedly originating from one woman who spent a night of sex with Mr. Rawat. She said he was an lousy lover and it was the weirdest night of her life. You're right, Disculta and Susan, this is a very very damning story, (and not in any puritanical way). Any premie who hears this story and continues to follow Maharaji definitely deserves what they get. Let'em. Who cares?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 19:49:32 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Here is what Michael Dettmers said.,.... Message:

Quoted from Michael Dettmers. Joe and several others have asked if the widespread belief that Maharaji has had numerous affairs with premies over the years is true. Beginning in 1985, Maharaji began a series of affairs with women who were premies. His move in this direction was prompted by his marriage difficulties in 1984. Although he and Marolyn came to some understanding and resolution over their problems, I do not know if part of that resolution included an agreement that he would be free to engage in extramarital affairs. I know that, from Maharaji’s perspective, Marolyn was certainly not free to engage in extramarital affairs. At that time, Maharaji and I were particularly close and he told me of his desire to experience other women. I was not shocked by his desire nor did I have a negative assessment about it. In fact, I thought that it might put him more in touch with his humanity which could only be a positive development as far as I was concerned. However, I strongly advised him not to get involved with premies. To me, this could potentially bring trouble for him and create difficulties for the women as well. Instead, I suggested that he engage the services of a professional escort, and I offered to make the arrangements for him. At first he seemed open to the idea but soon thereafter he decided against it. He told me that there was a particular premie woman he had in mind, and he asked me to arrange that they meet, which I did. Soon, thereafter, he asked me to arrange a meeting with another woman. In the meantime, the first person was left high and dry wondering what was going on. He cut off communication with her and her only recourse was to contact me. I now found myself in the unpleasant circumstance of dealing with situations he created by his lust and careless disregard for the hurt and confusion it inflicted on his victims. After three such incidents, I told him that his reckless behavior was backfiring, and that I did not have the time to take care of the negative consequences it produced. He responded by agreeing that I had more important things to handle for him than procuring women and that he would now take care of that task himself, meaning that he simply delegated the task to someone who was more amenable to it. He continued to have numerous affairs of which I am aware and it was not too long thereafter that he began a more serious affair with Monica Lewis that, according to my sources, continues to this day.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 23:21:55 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: Here is what Michael Dettmers said.,.... Message:

Hi Joe, It just occured to me that I am not positive that I sent you a package. Did I? I hope I didnt just get swamped and forget. I did send one to Jim. I have one ready for JM. Did I?

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Date: Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 00:12:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: bill Subject: Nope, not yet. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 28, 2000 at 19:34:53 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Sir Dave's site... Message:

...has Dettmer's posts saved for posterity, at The Truth About Maharaji. Go to the Sex and Scandal in Malibu section.

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